S1 • E18 Lisa Parker
===

Matt Kosterman: [00:00:00] Hi, this is Matt and we are back on the permission slip. Today I am with Lisa Parker, the founder of Tri Loam, and Lisa is a, well, you just told me and I forgot it. Tell me what you, you are, Lisa. 

Lisa Parker: Fair enough. Uh, psychedelic integrative body work. So I'm a body worker and psychedelic facilitator and a combo practitioner actually.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And combo is the, the frog poison. 

Lisa Parker: Well, medicine. Yes. I only say that just because words like they have different connotations to it. And there's, in the psychedelic realm, there's two medicines that come from animals. One's a frog, one's a toad. Right, right, right, right. Um, 

Matt Kosterman: I just like to tell people that I like free base and toad poison.

Matt Kosterman: 'cause it sounds cool. Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: Through a superficial bird on the skin that makes you purge. It's the cut. It's wonderful actually. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah, the frog. You can have the frog. I'll take the to. 

Lisa Parker: Perfect. It's been one of my [00:01:00] greatest allies and I, I mean I'm, we're, I'm assuming we're gonna get into this Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa Parker: But, you know, through the combo medicine really taught me how to, um, really regulate my nervous system. And so it's been just a really beautiful medicine. So I'm happy to finally carry that as, as one of my medicines. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Lovely. So, um, and we're actually, I'm in la I was here for a, a, a, a photography work job, and we're able to connect in person, which I always loved doing.

Matt Kosterman: So thanks for making the trip down here. LA traffic is not, not usually fun. 

Lisa Parker: Oh, happy to. I, yeah, just, I'm so grateful, like I said, for the invitation just to have the conversation, so thank you for having me. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah, 

Lisa Parker: yeah. It's good to meet you in person too. It's good to meet you. Yeah, for 

Matt Kosterman: sure. We, we, we met, uh, in an online group and, uh, she was kind enough to, to, uh, volunteer to do this.

Matt Kosterman: It's, uh, interesting. This'll be, I don't know which episode, four to 15 or 16 or something, and psychedelics have been a major part, which I've hinted at in some of my other episodes, but a major part of my healing, [00:02:00] um, and I specifically didn't want this to be a psychedelic podcast 'cause those exist. Um, but it, it, it was sort of the Holy trinity was, has been psychedelics and body work, but with which, least to us, both of which then opened me to a spirituality and a spiritual connection that I never knew I had.

Matt Kosterman: So, um, we share a lot of things in common and that I was for a, uh, quite some time I thought I was going down the road of being. A body work practitioner, um, working with psychedelics. So, um, very similar. I realized that that's not my path and that's fine. Um, but it's a great path and it's a very beautiful, uh, lot of healing.

Lisa Parker: Not at all what I thought I would be doing either. I know. Yeah, you're, it's totally different direction than I thought I would go in. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So tell, give us a, I always love the origin story. So where did, where, like where do you, where'd you grow up? 

Lisa Parker: I grew up in Detroit. Mm-hmm. Um, in a house that was haunted.

Lisa Parker: A haunted house. Yeah. Not a, not a, like a, a [00:03:00] human that passed, haunted, but just a energetic entity, spiritual kind of, you know, I would just see things in the house and just always felt like I was being washed with ill intent uhhuh. Um, and I came into this world as just a very sensitive soul. Yeah, yeah.

Lisa Parker: Very sensitive, very empathic. So just very attuned to what was around me. And so having this. This sense of this thing in the house just really kind of overwhelmed me. And I grew up in a very conservative Christian home and we even went to Christian schools. And so everything was about the church. Um, and so everything that you're learning about the church, about God and protecting and guardian angels.

Lisa Parker: And so when I would sense that there was something in my room, 'cause I could see this smoky thing in the corner of my room with these like yellow eyes. Oh wow. You know, I would say, I mean whatever it was in my little 70-year-old language, by the blood of Jesus, I command you to go uhhuh. You know, and nothing would happen.

Matt Kosterman: They would just stay there and, 

Lisa Parker: yeah. Yeah. Nothing shifted. And so it was this really confusing, [00:04:00] you know, I'm told that Jesus is protecting me, but this is happening. And I didn't know how to, you know, I didn't have the words and so I think I just learned how to disassociate and just how to like shut it down.

Lisa Parker: Um, but that carried over into my school. Um, and being a people pleaser. Mm-hmm. You know, trying to make like all the kids around me, like happy and like me. And 

Matt Kosterman: because you could feel when they weren't. Yes. Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. And it was so, like, I was already didn't like being at home and so like, trying to, you know, ease my nervous system at school, which just led to an incredible amount of teasing and bullying.

Lisa Parker: Mm. Like my god, kids are mean. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I didn't have that, um, like the street smarts, if you will, to know when I was being played. Ah. You know, I would just, I would just, you know, kind of deer eyed, follow and believe, whatever anyone told me. And so just year after year after year, just like the teasing and the bullying and it just kept getting worse.

Lisa Parker: Um, and thankfully, I [00:05:00] say thankfully, uh, if, you know, if anyone that knows my family, we're all very tall. Okay. Um, and so using my height to my advantage, I went into athletics, I went into sports. Um, so I just, you know, I wasn't very safe in school with all the bullying. I didn't like being home. So if I was in sports, then, like the practices and the games and the tournaments, you know, would kind of get me out of that and I could use my height to my advantage.

Lisa Parker: Um, and 

Matt Kosterman: were you, were you closer with your teammates? 

Lisa Parker: Not really. No. No. 

Matt Kosterman: Um, have you enjoyed it to a degree? I mean, or was it was the lesser of three evils? 

Lisa Parker: It was the lesser of three evils. Yeah. Yeah. I, I would say like the school that I, that I went to was a really small, private Christian school associated with the church.

Lisa Parker: So there were like 25 people in my class. Wow. So like, you're just, I'm playing sports with people that I've never played before. You know, begging for a parent to coach kind of a thing. Okay. So it wasn't like super competitive. Got it. But it, it kind of was, and I mean, to, [00:06:00] to be fair to my basketball team, like, we did win a couple championships, you know, like our, our basketball team was good.

Lisa Parker: The volleyball team, um, not so much, but my parents put me into a club. Team to kind of get me out of this school mm-hmm. To like really focus my talents. Mm-hmm. 'cause I really enjoyed volleyball. Um, but then I was, I was, um, introduced to these coaches that weren't associated with the church. And so their ethical behaviors, you know, weren't necessarily, well, not that, that's 

Matt Kosterman: not, that that's a, an automatic protection.

Lisa Parker: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Right. But there was a, there was a distinct difference between a parent coaching my volleyball team, then going into a club team that was public. Okay. Um, where there was just not, well, I was going to say that, but I'm gonna edit that out. Um, yeah. A lot of like energetic and verbal and emotional [00:07:00] abuse mm-hmm.

Lisa Parker: In that. Mm-hmm. And the lesson that I learned from that was that my value was based on my performance. So if I did well, I was good. If I did bad, I was bad. And just like the verbal abuse over and over and over again. And like how hard they pushed us in our training and the expectations on our body.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. And like what our bodies looked like and how our bodies performed. And you know, I even had a coach that said, you know, he wanted our bodies to, like, he wanted his team to be the most, most attractive team in the tournament. Oh boy. So it was just about how you We looked. How you looked, yeah. And how short our, our uniforms could get.

Lisa Parker: Oh. You know, so it was that kind of environment. So like I, I was just in this whirlwind of growing up, going, how am I safe? What's my value? What's good? What's bad? How do I make sense of it? And where do I find safety? 'cause I couldn't find safety in, 

Matt Kosterman: I mean, you didn't have it in your bedroom 'cause you had [00:08:00] ghosts, you didn't have it at school 'cause you had bullies, you didn't have it in sports 'cause you had sexist, misogynist.

Matt Kosterman: Coaches. Wow. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. What a confusing way to enter the world and try and figure out, okay, what's my, what's my place and what's my value? And how do I fit and what's, yeah. You know, how do I make sense of any of this? And so, yeah, I think I just, I entered into this cycle of abuse, you know, and it get, it got worse and worse and worse, and some of it pretty violent, unfortunately.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. Um, and I just resolved that that's how life was. And I re, I remember this moment, I don't quite remember if I was a senior or if I was a, a freshman in college, but something was happening. And to be fair, all of my trauma happened outside of my house. Mm-hmm. Aside from the haunting. 

Matt Kosterman: But your parents didn't, there were, aside from forcing you into religious upbringing, which I would argue is traumatic, but you were not getting physically abused by your.[00:09:00] 

Matt Kosterman: In your family of origin? 

Lisa Parker: Oh, correct. No, my parents were very supportive and attentive and mm-hmm. It was only because I was, I shut everything down and I never talked about it, that no one knew what was happening. Yeah. Because everything happened outside of the house. Okay. Um, and I, so something was happening, I think, um, I had a, I had a lot of death around me, um, accidents, overdoses, things happening, friends, um, people around me.

Lisa Parker: And so my dad sat me down once and he goes, and he, he had no idea what was happening in my life. He was just, was seeing what was happening around me. And he goes, I don't know why you keep having to suffer, but God must have a plan for you. And I emotionally didn't say anything, but like, that broke me. Mm.

Lisa Parker: Because I go, this God, who's supposed to have the best and greatest for my life is intending that I suffer. Mm-hmm. This is his best for me is that I'm supposed to suffer. Yeah. [00:10:00] You know, and I'm the youngest of five have kids, and I'm very different than my siblings. Very, very different from my siblings.

Lisa Parker: And so they are extroverted and popular and successful and happy. And I know that they've had their own struggles. Um, but I also know that I have, I have had a very different life than they had. Yeah. And so to have my dad say, you know, we believe in this God, we believe in this religion that's supposed to protect you, and you have guardian angels, but what's best for you is God's intending for you to suffer.

Lisa Parker: And I, I think that's the moment when I just completely shut off. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 'cause now you can't, like, now you don't even have God, you don't have school, you don't have home, you don't have, you don't have sports. Yeah. And now God, now God's not on your side. 

Lisa Parker: Right. And so I had just convinced myself that I missed my opportunity to be happy that this was my lot in life and.

Lisa Parker: I think because of the religious context, it never occurred to [00:11:00] me to seek outside help or supportive therapy. It just never crossed my mind. Uh, which seems really odd now based on where I am, but it, it just never occurred to me to seek outside help. 

Matt Kosterman: But it also, I mean, you're, you're a bit younger than me, but therapy wasn't a, a big thing.

Matt Kosterman: I mean, it wasn't a big thing back then. 

Lisa Parker: No. And we didn't, yeah. We weren't talking about holistic things. Not even 

Matt Kosterman: therapy. I, I mean, I remember I was in my twenties and my wife at the time took me to a therapist in, in Rochester, New York because our very young marriage was suffering and I didn't want to go.

Matt Kosterman: And then after telling my story for 20 minutes, she wanted to put me on on Prozac. And I'm like, you're fucking crazy. I'm outta here. Right. You know? To me, yes, to me, therapy was, you're broken. 

Lisa Parker: Right. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. And I, I'm fine. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. No one told me about acupuncture or reiki or body work or massage or any kind of it.

Lisa Parker: There it was the church, [00:12:00] it was the pew. Yeah. Or I don't even know what else. I don't know what the aura is. No. There was no, yeah. So, 

Matt Kosterman: wow. So you, so you got out of the house, went to college. 

Lisa Parker: Went to college, and had, uh, the worst years of my life, uhhuh the most traumatic, violent years of my life 

Matt Kosterman: playing sports.

Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. And the, and the violence was perpetrated through that. 

Lisa Parker: Uh, through that and off the court. It was on and off the court. On and off the court. Yeah. Yeah. Um, 'cause I just didn't know that I had a choice. Mm-hmm. You know, my, I signed a contract with a, uh, with a scholarship and I just didn't know that I had a choice mm-hmm.

Lisa Parker: To leave a situation that I knew wasn't healthy for me. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I wasn't happy within the construct of the athletic department. And so I would, I would drink, I would go out and drink. That also wasn't safe and healthy for me. So then things happened there too. It was like, wherever I went, [00:13:00] it was just this perpetual cycle.

Lisa Parker: It didn't matter where I went, you know, something, I would just walk into situations. Um, yeah. So finally got myself out of that, um, found my way into the corporate world and just kind of settled into a corporate job, keeping my head down with spreadsheets. Just waiting out 

Matt Kosterman: taxes, taxes, taxes, 

Lisa Parker: taxes, international taxes, national 

Matt Kosterman: taxes, 

Lisa Parker: which I do like.

Lisa Parker: I love numbers. 'cause they make sense to me. There's no ambiguity with that. Right. Um, yeah. So I was really good at my job, but it wasn't like what my heart wanted. 'cause you had 

Matt Kosterman: said earlier, you really, you, you wanted to go into some kind of physical, the, you wanted to go into some kind of physical therapy, but, but you realized you, because you're a coach, basically your college coach sort of forced you into particular majors.

Matt Kosterman: Right. And that those majors weren't supportive of you being a physical therapist, so you would've had to mm-hmm. [00:14:00] Do school all over again. 

Lisa Parker: Right. Yeah. I, I had a lot of injuries, um, right. Yeah. Through my athletic career. And I think now in hindsight, looking back, I can kind of see, I think I orchestrated some of that because if I was injured, then my coaches would leave me alone.

Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. And on the bench she's out, she's injured. Right. And you're still getting your scholarship money. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Everybody kinda leaves you. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. If I'm injured, if I'm sick. You know, I kind of orchestrated this whole slew of like, ways for me not to be healthy. Yeah. Um, as a way of being safe. Yeah. Um, but then I would always heal.

Matt Kosterman: But you, I mean, you had some, you said you like detach tendons from your ankle and like major stuff. Yeah. And said like the doctors were using you as the meds. The the medical school. Yeah. The like put the head out the door. Hey, 

Lisa Parker: come look at this. Come look 

Matt Kosterman: at Wow. What happened to her? Yeah. Yeah. You don't see this every day.

Lisa Parker: Yeah. There was So, and my mom was a physical therapist. Oh, that's, and so I, I grew up watching [00:15:00] her and like being really fascinated with what she was doing. Yeah. Um, and she of course, through all of my injuries would help me rehab. And there was something in me that was so interested in the healing process.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. And I was always the kid that like loved injuries. Meaning like if someone like got sick or like, you know, fell down and got a scratch, you know, was like, spray. Oh, cool, okay. Oh cool. Oh cool. What's that? You know, like, I, I don't mind, you know, blood, blood and 

Matt Kosterman: gore and, 

Lisa Parker: yeah. No, no, no. Yeah. If there's a broken boat, I'm like, cool, how are you gonna do it?

Lisa Parker: Like, how are we gonna fix this? Like, this is really cool. I just really like, loved that stuff. So I, and you know, being an athlete and I, there were aspects of being an athlete that I really loved and enjoyed, so I was like, well, like maybe helping, helping athletes. Mm-hmm. Heal. So like an athletic trainer or a physical therapist.

Lisa Parker: Um, but yeah, as you mentioned, I ended up with a business degree, like a really simple business degree. So I didn't take all of the anatomy and physiologies and scientific courses. Yeah. Biology and all that. Yeah. Right. [00:16:00] So by the time I graduated with my collegiate. Or with my, with my degree, in order to actually go into an education because my, my only job in college was to be an athlete.

Lisa Parker: Yeah. And nothing to do with education, unfortunately. Yeah. It was just athlete. Um, yeah. I realized I would have to completely redo my undergrad and like, that just didn't make sense to me. Yeah. And so I kind of threw my hands up and was like, well, here's just another, 

Matt Kosterman: another way to suffer. Yeah. Another 

Lisa Parker: way of just like, yeah, life's not going my way.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. Um, so settled into various, you know, corporate careers and just settled in with, I'm just, this is my luck and life and Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: And then what was the, what was the catalyst? What, what, so you did more, more, more bad things kept happening while you were in the corporate world. 

Lisa Parker: Uh, and it was compounding on my physical body.

Lisa Parker: And it, there was a couple things that happened that were really confusing, like when people would touch me or things would happen and I would like have these like huge emotional bursts [00:17:00] that were way bigger than what the situation called for. Mm-hmm. And I was like, I don't know what happened. And it would confuse me.

Lisa Parker: It would confuse everyone around me. So I would just shut it back down again. Mm-hmm. Um, until it accumulated into the, into hip pain. Right. Um, incredible, incredible hip pain that like would bring me to tears. Like anytime I was walking up a hill or up a step or any kind of effort forward was like pulling my femur out of the socket.

Lisa Parker: And of course all the doctors are like, nothing's wrong. 

Matt Kosterman: MRI this is right. Yep. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah, we'll send you to physical therapy. I'm like, my mom's a physical therapist. I've done that. Like, that's, that's not the answer. Yeah. Until, um, a friend of my sister's told me to go to a Rolfer and I had no idea what that word was like.

Lisa Parker: Can, what do you mean? 

Matt Kosterman: It's in Ralph? It's not our ra lp. Yeah. Like, can you spell that for me? Yeah. Like, what are you 

Lisa Parker: talking about? Um, so I found a practitioner in the Philadelphia area and through a series of sessions, she, she recognized that with all of the ankle injuries and that one ankle, 'cause it was always the same ankle.

Lisa Parker: It wasn't both, it [00:18:00] was just that one, just the one, you know, all of the scar tissue was pulling on my knee and that's what was pulling my femur out of the socket. And so she fixed my hip by working on my ankle. Yeah. And I was like completely shocked. Like it was the first time that I was like, yeah, the hip pain.

Lisa Parker: The hip bone was in the pain. The, to the, yeah. Right. Like, you're not gonna give me. You're not working on my hip, you're working on my ankle. Like it was the first time that I had any kind of sense that there was a holistic, like everything's connected. Everything has a, yeah. Uh, I don't know if part is the right word, but everything, everything's connected.

Lisa Parker: It's all connected, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And knowing what I know now, and again, this is before I had done any of my healing work, and so there's like blank parts. I don't know if we have con conversations. I don't know if she asked me about my history, but I, I am sure she felt the trauma in my body. Yeah.

Lisa Parker: Because again, I had never had therapy. I never talked to anybody. 

Matt Kosterman: And if you were, if you were having outbursts by somebody just touching you, then I'm sure think anybody with any degree of [00:19:00] sensitivity was gonna, was gonna key in on the fact that you had trauma in your body. 

Lisa Parker: Oh, I no doubt. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa Parker: No doubt. And I don't think she asked me about it. If she did, I probably shut her down. Sure, sure, sure, sure. But I was walking out the door and she said, Hey, have you ever read the book, the Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Vander Cook? Yeah. And I was like, no. And so she gave me the book and it was one of those key moments that I can look back on my life and go, that moment radically changed my life because I realized like what my body was holding and like all of those emotional outbursts based on like, when people were touching me in very simple, you know, like positive, safe ways, um, it, my whole life made sense like, oh, this is, this is my body and this is what my body is holding, and this is how much of my life experience and all of my trauma has been compounded in [00:20:00] my nervous system, deregulation and my emotional deregulation and my physical pain.

Lisa Parker: I was like, oh, light bulb. Light bulb. Yeah. Yeah. And so I went to go look at, um, the, the training in Rolfing. 'cause I was curious about the prerequisites. Like, is this something that I could do without having to redo my undergrad? Sure. And come to find out there are no prerequisites like that. Like I could just enroll.

Lisa Parker: And I was like that, like I'm leaving the corporate world. Like this is 

Matt Kosterman: accept, accept. You could just enroll. Except what did you have to do with the training? 

Lisa Parker: Well, this is what she said. So I was so excited. So I came back to her and I was like, Hey, you know, I really like, thank you so much. You've changed my life.

Lisa Parker: I'm gonna train to be a Rolfer. And she goes, I need to let you know that the way that the training works is in the morning you do all of your science and biology and technical learning. But in the afternoon, everyone takes their turn, uh, standing in front of the class in their underwear. So you can start to train body alignment and movement.

Lisa Parker: Um, and then you [00:21:00] practice on each other, you know, in your underwear. And I think I, if I can imagine how my face was in that moment, I probably went white. Yeah. Um, going, there's, there's no way I can do that. I mean, based on my, on my history, there's just no way I can do that. And that was the very first moment, not reading the book.

Lisa Parker: Mm. But that moment I was like, I, I need help. Mm-hmm. Like I can't just enroll in that program until I talk to someone about my trauma. Yeah. Because there's no way I am gonna get through a training like that. Um, so then I was faced with the how, but you 

Matt Kosterman: had to, but there's like, so you, you have this desire and yet you know that there's, that there's physically there.

Matt Kosterman: It's not happening. Like you Oh my God. Yeah. Psychologically you're not. No way. 

Lisa Parker: No. Yeah. You wanna put me in my underwear and stand in front of a man and lay on a table being passive as someone else touches me. Mm-hmm. That there's, yeah, no, that's not, not happening. [00:22:00] That's not gonna happen. Um, so I went home going, holy shit, like I need help, but like, talk therapy, I'm introverted.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. And I have a disassociative nervous system, so there's no way I'm gonna talk to a stranger about something. Like I'll sit quiet for an hour. My preference actually, you know, so that's not gonna work. Yeah. And my sister-in-law had been telling me about ayahuasca. Mm-hmm. But again, because of the athlete and the religious upbringing, you know, drugs are gonna like, ruin my career, send me to hell, hell shame everything.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. Um, but that time I went back to her and I was like, tell me again about this thing. 'cause I think you said it was therapeutic. And I, I, 'cause I know this woman and she's one of my best friends. I know she told me what Ayahuasca was. Mm-hmm. What I honestly heard and retained was that you drink a plant, you don't talk to anybody.

Lisa Parker: Right. And it's 20 years of therapy in one night. Yeah. And I was like, great, let's try that first. Sign me up. [00:23:00] It's like, that ticks all my boxes. Uhhuh of avoidance 

Matt Kosterman: and 

Lisa Parker: I'll be fixed. Right. Yeah. It was, I mean that's, that's literally all I heard. And I think it's good for my nervous system that I didn't understand like how um, complex that experience was gonna be.

Lisa Parker: 'cause I don't know if I would've conceptually been ready for it. Sure. You know, I think I needed a big experience like that to get past my control mechanisms to like, not force me into an experience, but to. You know, get me past my nervous system because at that point my control systems were so strong.

Lisa Parker: So strong. And the disassociation was so strong. Yeah. That if there's anything that I felt was gonna be challenging, I would just shut down. Yeah. So I think I needed something like Ayahuasca to kind of override that, to get me into a place of like, he just, 

Matt Kosterman: she overrides it. Yeah, she does. Thank goodness.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Um, so you had that experience and what, what was the outcome from this, from your first journey? 

Lisa Parker: [00:24:00] I, you know, I, it was so simple, you know, obviously we didn't touch my trauma 'cause I wasn't ready for it. Like, the message that night was, you know, you've been walking backwards, like looking at your trauma, but like, your future is forwards, you know, and it was a message of hope.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. Like, you have a purpose and you can go forward and you can go forward with purpose and precision. It's why I love the tattoos of the, um, arrows. You know, arrows represents like being pulled back and you're held, but then when you're, when you shot forward, you know, it's with a purpose. And so she kind of instilled just this, you've been hiding all of your life, like you've been playing hide and go seek.

Lisa Parker: But everyone stopped playing a long time ago. Like you're an adult. Yeah. Now. Yeah. You know, with empowerment. Um, and your time is to like, you have a purpose. I have a purpose for you. You need to turn around and walk forward. And so it was a very [00:25:00] simple message, but it like eyes opened for the first time going, I can heal.

Matt Kosterman: Mm. I don't have to be the victim for the, I don't have to be miserable. 

Lisa Parker: I can walk forward in my own life. My past doesn't dictate my future. Right. You know, it's a cliche, but, you know, it was the first time that I felt that that was possible. 'cause I never got it from the religious church. Yeah. And so I didn't believe it to be true.

Lisa Parker: 'cause I thought that that's what I was trying to get from the religious church. And I never did. You never. And this was the first moment of No, there's healing for you possible. Right. Um, and man, when I say that, I came out of that like with an urgency mm-hmm. To do more. It's like once I got a taste that I could find joy, I went after it with a fervor.

Lisa Parker: You were 

Matt Kosterman: all in. 

Lisa Parker: I was all in. And I was like, I have to do this as much as possible. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I just, I want to back up for the, I mean, I, I know Ayahuasca is more and more in the zeitgeist these [00:26:00] days. Um, but just to give a little background, it's a, it's an Amazonian plant generally grows in the Amazon two plants.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Um, there's a vine, the ster copy. Right. 

Lisa Parker: Banister, cappi, banisters, 

Matt Kosterman: cappi. And then the, uh, actual ayahuasca. No, sorry. Then the, um, the leaf, the cha cha chano leaf, which has the actual medicine in it. No, I thought the Chacruna leaf has the DMT 

Lisa Parker: croon has a DMT, but the, yeah. The spiritual essence of ayahuasca is in the band Ofer cap.

Lisa Parker: It's a vine that grows up a tree. Um, traditional. 

Matt Kosterman: They work, they work together. 

Lisa Parker: Yes. 

Matt Kosterman: And yeah. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. So the, the ayahuasca vine on her own is not psychoactive, you know, but she contains this incredible amount of, of spiritual, um, power guided wisdom. Wisdom, yeah. Peeling. But she needs a psychoactive component.

Lisa Parker: So in the jungle, they mix it with DMT. So DMT is a psychoactive component that opens her spiritual properties. Yeah. Um, and DMT is 

Matt Kosterman: a dimethyl. Tryptamine is the, is [00:27:00] the actual, and it's a very power, very powerful psychedelic. It's, it's thought, widely thought in the medical community that your pineal gland creates a form of DMT.

Matt Kosterman: And there's other forms of DM. In the wild, in bark and, and whatnot. Um, 

Lisa Parker: correct. Yeah. In a toad, 

Matt Kosterman: in a toad, a toad medicine. Uh, and, and it's, uh, and it's also the ceremonies are very beautiful because they're led by, very trained is like the bat wrong word, but they're like these. People that are healers and they sing and they, and, and the music, uh, the music for me has always guided the journey, the, the songs that they sing.

Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Um, and it's also for many, it's a purgative. I'm sure you people have heard the, you know, oh, is that the thing? You know, it's gonna make me throw up and poop and Yeah. It might and you'll probably be glad for it. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. And this work, we call it getting well, yeah. Uh, right. 'cause you're purging out the things that don't serve you anymore.

Lisa Parker: And there's a [00:28:00] scientific, biological reason and there's a spiritual, uh, representation of it. I mean, the right in the jungle. I mean, they don't grind these plants into a fine powder, so it's very fibrous. It's a bark. Mm-hmm. And, uh, very often, like your, your, your body, your stomach just can't digest those substances.

Lisa Parker: And so if your body can't digest it, it'll 

Matt Kosterman: out. It comes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I read somewhere, somebody asked, uh, one of the eros, one of the hero healers, you know, where, how did you know to combine, there's thousands of plants in the jungle, how did you know to combine these two? And they said. The jungle told us.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: The jungle told us to do this. And that's the level of wisdom that these people operate at. 

Lisa Parker: Ah, it's beautiful. I mean, it's how they found combo too. It's such a beautiful story. The farm medicine. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. It's their form of technology and information is through these sacred plants that they, of 

Matt Kosterman: generations and generations of, of their lives have passed this on.

Lisa Parker: Yeah. It's, uh, it's so incredible and to start to learn about [00:29:00] all of the plants that our earth has, you know, it really is an apothecary. Mm-hmm. And so I, I started learning about Ayahuasca, sitting with it over and over and over and over again. And then I started to, you know, find out about Hape and Nanga and combo.

Lisa Parker: I was like, wait, there's other plants that do things right. Like, once I found out that there was others, I'm like. I've gotta study. Like I'm all in, here's my path. 

Matt Kosterman: And, and so, and you also then did thero thing training. I 

Lisa Parker: did. So I got pretty quickly, I think within like two or three Ayahuasca ceremonies, I felt confident and like confident enough, uh, to roll.

Matt Kosterman: To stand. To stand in your underwear. Yeah. Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: And it was so interesting 'cause I, I was, I was sitting with these medicines as I was going through the training and it was fascinating to me what I was processing through the medicine experience. And then. The next week I would go, um, to the school and we were practicing each other and it's like the memories that were coming up in my body were correlating with what I was processing in the, in the medicine.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. Like it was very much [00:30:00] a partnership. And so, I mean, just from the very beginning I realized that there was a deep connection between like my subconscious and, you know, healing my emotional state versus what my physical body was holding. Um, so there it wasn't a question that I needed to continue to do both.

Lisa Parker: Yeah. Like the physical touch and the, and and, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know that between M-D-M-A-I had frozen shoulder in addition to my pelvic problems. 

Lisa Parker: And, 

Matt Kosterman: and I had, it was the left shoulder would just knock me to my knees. The pain was so intense and I tried physical therapy and I tried the, the shot, the cortisone shot might as well have been saline 'cause it did nothing.

Matt Kosterman: And I sat for my first MDMA ceremony with an underground therapist and had this big realization about my upbringing and, and when I walked in, I couldn't move my arm. About a 15 degree radius, and when I walked out, I could move my arm. And then after sitting with Ayahuasca a couple months later and doing integration work, I realized that my, it was, it was my left arm, and I realized that it came from getting spanked as a [00:31:00] child.

Matt Kosterman: My father would lift me up by my left arm to spank me. And when I had that realization, then all, then it was, then, that was, then I was on the road to healing and then 

Lisa Parker: mm-hmm. So I could, 

Matt Kosterman: I, it was still stiff when I came out of the first, you know, it took a couple of years to get rid of the stiffness, but 

Lisa Parker: mm-hmm.

Matt Kosterman: You know, I just shudder to think if I had actually been able to afford to go and have surgery mm-hmm. It wouldn't have done shit. 

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: And the doctors were nice enough to say, I don't, it doesn't usually work. Surgery doesn't usually do anything. 

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Um, but that it was, I mean, it was un, it was undeniable.

Matt Kosterman: I literally had to pull my car over when I had the realization because I had to cry so hard. 

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Involuntarily, it was, you know, it sounds terrible. It was great. Like, you know, give me that every day if there's, you know, but that was what was stored in there. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. I, I mean, the. Know, I want be really careful about the institute, um, you know, and the work that they're doing.

Lisa Parker: But I just, I felt bodies differently than what they were telling me to. And part of our training was leave the woowoo out the door, push the body with science. Okay. Right. There's a very strict with enrolling. [00:32:00] Mm-hmm. Okay. There's a very strict way of unwinding the body. Mm-hmm. But anytime that I was practicing with my clients, I was like, but I'm feeling like I'm just feeling it differently.

Lisa Parker: I just could tell that it wasn't, I wasn't understanding what they were saying. 'cause what I wasn't tuning to, 'cause remember I'm super sensitive. Yeah. Like what I was feeling as someone else was different. And, um, one of the last clients that I worked with was having shoulder pain. And so we were working, working, working.

Lisa Parker: And I could just tell that there was something else there. Mm-hmm. And then she left and came back the next day and she goes, Lisa, I have to tell you that. Um, after you worked on me, I went back to the car and this memory came in of when I was in high school and I was in the passenger seat of my boyfriend's car and he started attacking me, you know, and that was her left shoulder.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. And she goes, I realized that that's what the tension was that I was holding in my, in my shoulder, you know, kind of made sense. And so I cried and I screamed and I got it out and she goes, and now my shoulder is okay. Yeah. And that story was like, I knew it. 

Matt Kosterman: You knew it. [00:33:00] You knew there was something there 

Lisa Parker: I knew based on my own physical experience and based on her.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. And then I think it was like two weeks later I graduated and I immediately went to the jungle for two months. And that's like where, and I went through another like massive emotional healing where like, where I was manifesting all kinds of stuff in my body. But this is really where. The medicine and my physical experience and my body work connected was like everything is combined and if I'm gonna do my work, I have to combine.

Lisa Parker: Yeah. Or I at least have to hold the complexity of the multiple layers. That it's not just the physical fascia. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. There's not, yeah. It's not just one thing. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: The plane doesn't fall out of the sky 'cause one thing goes wrong. Right. It's always a cascade. Yeah. Yeah. And 

Lisa Parker: there's, I mean, there's times when it is just physiological.

Lisa Parker: Like we get a knot in our shoulder, you know, we Sure. Hyperextend a limb, 

Matt Kosterman: break a leg, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Lisa Parker: But the unexplained pain. The chronic pain, you know, I'm 

Matt Kosterman: the fatigue. The brain [00:34:00] fog. 

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's when my ears perk up and go, okay, what else is happening in your life? 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

Lisa Parker: You know, 'cause I, 

Matt Kosterman: or the muscles that won't release.

Matt Kosterman: Right. Like the shoulder or the lower back. My whole life I had lower back problems and it was 'cause I was shoving everything down. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. How 

Matt Kosterman: to express it. Shove it down, shove it down, shove it down. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: And the times that you release and you feel better, then a half hour you come right back up. Like, that's not a physiological restriction.

Lisa Parker: Right. That's a nervous system, protective pattern. There's something else Yeah. That's causing that fascia to, you know, tense. That's a nervous system response. Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: So this journey, all this, this stuff was 10 years, 10 years ago. 10, 15 years ago. That, 

Lisa Parker: that would've been, I graduated from the Rol Institute in 2018.

Matt Kosterman: Okay. So, yes, it was eight years ago. Going on. Eight years ago. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and worked. And then you, and you said you've worked with these other medicines, you found combo and you the nanga, which all that stuff is 

Lisa Parker: woo. I love it. 

Matt Kosterman: So, and that's a medicine from, it's from the jungle. Is it an [00:35:00] animal or is it a plant?

Lisa Parker: It's a, it's a root. 

Matt Kosterman: It's a root. 

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: That they, 

Lisa Parker: yeah. It's the, it's like the, the liquid from a root. Yeah. Yeah. The Langa. 

Matt Kosterman: And they, my understanding is the hunt, they use it for hunting. They put the hunters for visual acuity, they drop it in their eyes. 

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It cleans the eye. 

Matt Kosterman: Oh, it cleans it. Mm-hmm.

Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: It sure does. But also nervous system, you know? Yeah. Yeah. They use it in the jungle for hunting 'cause it cleans your eyes. So like sharper vision? Sharper vision. Yeah. Um, you know, in our culture, we're not going into the jungle and hunting, but we're staring 

Matt Kosterman: at computers all day long. 

Lisa Parker: Right.

Lisa Parker: Yeah. And the third eye, like it's used for a vision, like third eye vision, but it actually cleans the cornea and cleans the eye. Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: And people have reported like not needing glasses after using it. 

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Um, yeah. Really good for neuro sinness. Yeah. Repeatedly. Mm-hmm. Repeatedly. Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: And for headaches too.

Lisa Parker: Even for migraines. Oh, for migraines, okay. Yeah, because it forces the ocular muscles to contract. Okay. And so it's almost like the, um, interesting. Like the, the pendulum [00:36:00] concepts. Like you go into the pain, you go into the contractions. So when you release and it's a full release. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's the same with the, because nanga will force your, your muscle, your eye muscles to contract.

Lisa Parker: It forces your eyes closed. Yes, it does. And so it, it contracts all the muscles and then when it finally releases it, 

Matt Kosterman: it, it's a bigger release all the way back. Mm-hmm. Oh, fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, so combo nanga, 

Lisa Parker: combo 

Matt Kosterman: psilocybin came along somewhere in there. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. I don't even remember where mushrooms came in.

Lisa Parker: But the combo too. The combo I found right before I went to the jungle, um, you know, 'cause I was in all of these ayahuasca ceremonies and they knew that I'm a body worker. Okay. And so I would do a work trade. You know, so I would do a lot of body work on the facilitators and those that were working in exchange for sitting.

Lisa Parker: Yeah. Because I was a poor student. Um, and I kept seeing these people with these red dots on their arms. Right, right. I'm like, what? Like who's in the know? Like, I thought I was in the know what are the, you know, like I know that there's like secret hoppe circles happening. [00:37:00] I'm like, what's ha, like what else is happening?

Lisa Parker: I was super curious. So I finally asked, and I didn't necessarily want to do all the vaccines to go into the jungle and I knew that it was, you know, supposed to fortify the immune system. So I got introduced to a combo facilitator who was also a human design Oh, practitioner. Very cool. And again, like talking about like finding these, these things, things that I need to get that 

Matt Kosterman: number 'cause I wanna have a human design person on that.

Lisa Parker: I have exactly who you can talk to. Great. Um, you know, but to, to the, um, you know, the title of your podcast, the permission slip. It was like I was finding all of these medicines and all of these, all of these things that gave me permission to be who I was. You know, 'cause again, I'm not like my siblings.

Lisa Parker: And so my only form of example of who to be and how to be successful wasn't how I'm designed to be. Like, my siblings are motors. You know? They're generators. Your projector. Yes. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah, me too. Yeah. Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: Very strong projector. Like I need an invitation. Yeah. And so, you know, I, I learned combo through her [00:38:00] and like how to regulate my nervous system.

Lisa Parker: 'cause again, like it didn't, I mean, ayahuasca was good for my life processing, but like my nervous system was still unregulated outta whack. And Combo was amazing to teach me how to be uncomfortable and sit with it. 

Matt Kosterman: Oh, okay. 

Lisa Parker: And then she taught me about human design and projector. Mm-hmm. And that it's okay that I'm not like my siblings.

Matt Kosterman: Right. That you don't have a motor, you don't have, you don't have a constant energy source and Yeah. And you need the invitation. Right. 

Lisa Parker: I have four hours a day where I can work. I was gonna ask how I need a lot of rest. Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. I needed a, oh my God, what a life changer that was. Learning that I needed a lot of rest and it was okay.

Matt Kosterman: It was okay to get the rest 

Lisa Parker: permission to be me, that I don't have to be like, 

Matt Kosterman: go, go, go, go, go. Yeah. I mean, I was going 18 hours a day when I was running that damn photo lab and it almost killed me. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. I, I mean, so the people that I was meeting in these ceremonies, like I, I remember walking into an ayahuasca ceremony and like someone hugged me and asked me how I was, and I was like, oh my God.

Lisa Parker: You mean it, like they actually meant it. Yeah. [00:39:00] It was, it was such a like ev everything that was involved in these psychedelic medicines, in this culture, in these groups and like what they're, what they're using for resources. Right. Just was like the biggest sigh of relief. Like, this is my world. Yeah. Like this is where I belong and thank God.

Lisa Parker: 'cause it took me 37 years to find it, you know? 

Matt Kosterman: But what is time? 

Lisa Parker: Well, I, I am, now that I'm where I am, I can look back and go, like, I've learned all my lessons. I've learned how to heal my physical body. Mm-hmm. I've learned how to regulate my emotional body. I've learned how to regulate my nervous system.

Lisa Parker: Um, I've had to readjust my belief systems around my value and who I am and what's good or bad or appropriate or inappropriate 

Matt Kosterman: based on what your body tells you. Yeah. And like tuning into is how does this feel? Are you an emotional projector? Are you a, what's your, 

Lisa Parker: I don't know if I know that. Okay. Level.

Lisa Parker: I think I'm a spleen. You spleen 

Matt Kosterman: it. Okay. So you feel the thunk you [00:40:00] like, you, you, I feel it. You feel it? Yeah. So I'm emotional. It's a wave for me. I'm, I'm solar plexus. It's different. 

Lisa Parker: No, I, I feel it, but in a religious context where I'm told something that I'm like 

Matt Kosterman: over it trying, overriding, it 

Lisa Parker: doesn't work for me.

Lisa Parker: But I didn't know what to replace that truth with. Right. I didn't know my truth. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. When your truth is what your body tells you is your truth. 'cause that's the ultimate arbiter. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. It's, it's the intuition. 'cause we, we grow through life. And here's like where psychedelics play a huge part in the work that I do.

Lisa Parker: We learn truths, quote unquote, um, that maybe aren't actually in alignment with our truth. You know, I have to perform my value. It's how will you know I should be shamed, you know, I should, you know, be guilty. I'm a sinner. Um, it's not okay because of my bullying. It's not okay to be who I am. You know, I'm not good enough.

Lisa Parker: All of these things that I, 

Matt Kosterman: I need to be, I need to be pretty right. I need, I need to wear the short shorts. I need to, 

Lisa Parker: yeah. My body has to look [00:41:00] a certain way, right? I have to perform, right? Oh, I have to do what he tells me to. You know? And all of this is like subconsciously being filtered through my, my default mode network.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. You know, my free prefrontal cortex. Mm-hmm. My command center. So I'm filtering information through all of these. Again, truths. I'm not cognitively doing it day to day. It's just how I've, it's just normal life. You're swimming in 

Matt Kosterman: it. You basically, I mean, that's our culture. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: All of these things that you describe as much of our culture, 

Lisa Parker: right?

Lisa Parker: Yeah. So working with these sacred medicines to quiet that. So I'm filtering information through a different perspective going, oh, that's not my truth. Oh, that's not how life works. Oh, I can't set boundaries. I can be safe. Mm-hmm. Um, and I don't know if I could have done that with like talk therapy or anything else.

Lisa Parker: You know, it was just through the biochemical brain functions of these medicines and how they work. And then [00:42:00] having facilitators who were ethical, you know, where I could ask questions and they could guide and yeah, because what I would ask, 

Matt Kosterman: like what sort of integration work? If you weren't doing therapy, what were you doing outside of ju of the medicines?

Matt Kosterman: Were you doing work on integration or it was, things were falling into place? 

Lisa Parker: I think I, um, I started, I started collecting. Really good people around me. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. So did I. Very lucky. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. I started recognizing like who I needed to be around and then asking questions of them and watching. Um, you know, a lot of people ask me who my teachers are, and I don't have a lot of human teachers.

Lisa Parker: Hmm. They, it's all been through plant-based experiences. Yeah. And I learn very quickly once I see it and I understand it and I experience it. Like, once I get it, I get it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so I [00:43:00] think putting some of these practices together, going, oh, I can set boundaries, and then trying it and going, oh, holy shit.

Lisa Parker: It works. It 

Matt Kosterman: works. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Well, I'll do that again. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. It's like, oh one once I, once I try it and experience it. Got it. Let's move on. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 'cause I mean, I, it, it seems to me the only reason, like I wouldn't set a boundary in my own life was because I've feared. What the other person, there was fear around setting the boundary.

Matt Kosterman: I'm not like, I'm not allowed to set the boundary. I'm gonna get in trouble if I set the boundary. I can't say no. And once, once you realize that you're the one where the fear comes from, but it took the medicines and the work to do that for me. And it sounds like for you too, 

Lisa Parker: I just didn't know I could, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah.

Lisa Parker: It, it wasn't modeled for me. Right. In any capacity. Or if it was, I wasn't paying attention. Mm-hmm. So I didn't know. I didn't know I could, I didn't know I have a choice. I didn't know that I could say no. And again, that like empathic, I had to learn how to be an empath. Um, and I told people for years, it makes me laugh now, but I told people for years that I feel other [00:44:00] people's emotions stronger than my own.

Lisa Parker: Mm mm And so everything I did was at, was appeasing the other. Okay. Sure. Because it was more important to me that you were okay. You know, at this self-sacrifice of myself. Right. It took me, I mean, I don't know how long, but it took me kind of restructuring that to go, oh, I think actually I know who it was.

Lisa Parker: Someone, um, I went to do like an energy healing just 'cause I'm curious about everything. So I was doing everything I could. Mm-hmm. And she goes, someone else's temporary disappointment is not more important than your truth there. You and I also remember when I was leaving the corporation, um, there was a partner that I had befriended and, you know, I was like, 'cause I, my ego was like, I do so much.

Lisa Parker: Like if I leave, if you feel like he was gonna, and she was like, this is a big corporation, like, we're gonna figure it out. It's fine. Right. Like, don't, like, that's so funny. Set your ego down. 

Matt Kosterman: I had the same thing. I had a job I didn't like at. [00:45:00] Position at Eastman Kodak years ago. And I'm like, I can't leave.

Matt Kosterman: Like the whole company will come crashing down, you know, all 75,000 employees. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah, right. I know. Like my ego, I'm like, I do so much. I, I hold the team together. She was like, don't kid yourself. She goes, figure it out. Thank you, but we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. So when this other teacher told me that, like, someone's temporary disappointment, I remember, you know, when she told me that, and sure enough, the corporation is still running today and doing just fine.

Lisa Parker: Doing just fine. Um, Kodak's 

Matt Kosterman: not on the other hand, so, oh, well maybe there was something, 

Lisa Parker: maybe there, 

Matt Kosterman: something to that. 

Lisa Parker: Maybe there is something in your position, but for mine, yeah. There's certainly fine. Uh, yeah and I, I just, yeah, I just started taking these lessons to heart, going, how do I, how do I live safely?

Lisa Parker: 'cause I know that I can. Mm-hmm. So what's preventing me from doing that? And it's, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah, because you had, you, you finally got those experiences of safety in your body. Which was my experience of not having had that before. And then once you're [00:46:00] like, oh, that's possible. Oh wow. 

Lisa Parker: Oh yeah. Oh wow. Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: Oh, I can have emotional safety.

Lisa Parker: Oh, I can have, I can regulate my nervous system. Oh, I don't have to just be at the pleasure of others. You're right. Right. Well then, fuck that. I'm not gonna be sorry. Like, I'm hoping I can swear here, but yeah, we're 18 plus a lot of that was, you know, after 35 years of being like used and abused and all of that, I was like, fuck.

Lisa Parker: No. Never again. Yeah. Never again. So it was just finding ways to make sure that I could, I could hold that to be true. Mm-hmm. That like my never again actually meant never again. Yeah. Oh, and I mean it. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. You say it, you mean it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know when I've worked with the Toad medicine that as I'm coming out of it, oftentimes they'll, the woman will be whispering.

Matt Kosterman: I say what I mean. Mm-hmm. I mean, what I say. Mm-hmm. I say what I mean. Mm-hmm. I mean, what I say. Mm-hmm. As a reprogramming. Mm-hmm. Because that's when you're wide, you know, wide open 

Lisa Parker: mm-hmm. On 

Matt Kosterman: that stuff. Um, and still [00:47:00] there are layers, right? Yeah. We still do our own work. So, um, so you got fixed and now you're fixing other people.

Matt Kosterman: I'm using that tongue in cheek. Nobody's broken. We're not fixing anybody. So tell me about, tell me about the, how do you work with people these days? How are you? How, yeah. So I do, 

Lisa Parker: um. So psychedelic integrated body work. So I bring in low dose psilocybin with hands-on work because I, a large part of my, my work is around the conversations that we've been having, that there's multiple layers to our existence.

Lisa Parker: Um, and trauma's not linear and stresses aren't linear. You know, I didn't have to just fix my physical body. You know, I had to figure out emotional regulation, nervous system regulation, belief patterns, and my sense of who I was and my value. Um, and a lot of the traditional modalities that we have will hit on two, maybe three of those, but not all five.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. Um, and for me, I used psychedelics and body work together, so it was just an [00:48:00] obvious because those two combined hit all five together. Okay. You know, traditional talk therapy, right? Emotional regulation, belief patterns, sense of self. Um, but it's not addressing physical pain, right? Or attention, right?

Lisa Parker: Therapists don't touch their clients traditionally. Um, god forbid. You know, psychedelics, like if you go into psych, psychedelic therapy, same kind of thing. But again, not addressing the physical, I mean, there may be like Kundalini energy, there may be things, but you're not integrating it through the physical body.

Lisa Parker: Um, body work. Of course, you're addressing the physical body, but you're not addressing the deep down layers of 

Matt Kosterman: Right. Some of it like, you know, Jonathan Trap's work. I think you listen to his, like the, the myofascial work. If you, you can, yeah. You can address, you can address some of the psychological stuff too, because you can have, be having conversations about what are you feeling here?

Lisa Parker: Right. 

Matt Kosterman: What are you ready to let go of? 

Lisa Parker: Right. 

Matt Kosterman: Voicing it, I let go of this. Thank you for tr you know, the human garage too. I don't know if you're familiar with those folks. 

Lisa Parker: I've, yes. They have a big 

Matt Kosterman: movement of doing self, uh, [00:49:00] maneuvers to yourself. Um, yeah. It's been life changing for me to do the human garage work.

Lisa Parker: Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. I mean, 'cause it's the, the physical body is a conduit to bring your attention to all of the other. Layers. Yeah. If you're aware, 

Matt Kosterman: right? And it's like, you know Laura, who's my friend, who's a channel who's been on here a couple of times, you know her, her beings, her non-physical beings say, well, yeah, you know, up here where we exist, all we know is love and light, and everything's contentment on up.

Matt Kosterman: So you're down there in bodies to have these experiences in bodies that you can't have where you come from. 

Lisa Parker: Right. 

Matt Kosterman: So you're in the body, take care of the body. 

Lisa Parker: Right. 

Matt Kosterman: And and the stuff manifests in the body. 

Lisa Parker: It does, yeah. So, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah. And so you said also you, you were gonna sell seven, but you, you also mix in the ster copy.

Matt Kosterman: The, the, the ayahuasca 

Lisa Parker: depending on who I'm working with. I mean, it's an MAOI inhibitor, so depending on like medications and other things I can bring in. The ayahuasca vine, which is, I mean, of course I'm biased 'cause I use it professionally, but it is my favorite combination of medicines using the psilocybin [00:50:00] with the Ayahuasca V.

Lisa Parker: Um, it just, you get the best of both characteristics of both medicines. Um, so you get the teacher aspect of psilocybin and because I can, I can be very careful with the psychoactive, um, dosing of psilocybin. So I'm usually working with a low dose, like between half a gram and a gram. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And for, for reference, a typical like two and a half grams and up is sort of considered like a.

Matt Kosterman: You get three and up, you're kind of getting a hero dose territory, right? Correct. Yeah. So you're down there and above microdosing, which is a big thing and very useful. 

Lisa Parker: Yep. 

Matt Kosterman: But you're not macro dosing. It's not a blow. Your, generally speaking, a blow the lid off things. 

Lisa Parker: Right. Because I want you to stay present with what's happening in your physical body.

Lisa Parker: Yeah. So I, I combine the medicine with the hands-on works, so my clients all stay completely dressed. Um, and I typically work over a blanket. Mm-hmm. And it's a low dose amount of medicine, so I want you to feel it, but you're still present with what's happening in your physical body. And we just using myofascia release, go really, really slow.

Lisa Parker: [00:51:00] Uh, find the points of like where your body is holding, like where's the tension, where's the pain, where's the restriction, where's the protective pattern? Mm-hmm. Um, and letting the client work internally with the medicine. What are they holding? Is it even theirs? What's, 

Matt Kosterman: what's behind it? Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. Because epigenetics, yeah.

Lisa Parker: And if you're an empath, you're holding for, for other people. And our, our world is challenging right now, so there's a lot of holding for other people in a collective. Um, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah. In the collective sense, right? Yeah. The other people's pain. I love, what was the analogy? We, when in the, in the preamble when we were talking about the analogy of the, the mushrooms and the grandmother 'cause ayahuasca's, oh, it's my favorite.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ayahuasca's known as grandmother. It's a very, it's a very feminine healing energy. Yeah. There's 

Lisa Parker: no hierarchy to these medicines. But if there were, she's the grandmother. She's, she's the grandmother, she's a teacher. Teacher. You know, she's the gray-haired elder that's been watching with all of the wisdom going, Matt, 

Matt Kosterman: straighten your shit out.

Matt Kosterman: You know, I've been 

Lisa Parker: watching and we have some things to talk about or Elisa Right. I have some things to talk about, you know, and Yeah. My favorite, I don't know if this is fair, but my [00:52:00] favorite visual is I heard, uh, psilocybin referred to as little eight year olds, little hyper eight year olds running around Uhhuh.

Lisa Parker: Because it can be a phonetic energy, right? I mean, depending on the strand, right? These, this is a general generalization. Generalization, yeah. Um, but when, when psilocybin is coming on, it can be a little bit hard for the nervous system to regulate. Especially in nervous. Exactly. Yeah. And then thought patterns like start to jump around, you know, a lot of little different rabbit trails.

Lisa Parker: Squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, squirrel. Yeah, exactly. And so when you bring the two together, it's like the grandmother kind of like calms all the eight year olds has them sit down. Mm-hmm. But then they bring up the lightness in her, you know, so I can like, through the dosing of the psilocybin control, like how psychoactively, you know, big the experience is.

Lisa Parker: Um, and then with the ayahuasca vine, it's like these long, prolonged periods of, uh, like one thought pattern to go, like if I'm in your shoulder to go, okay, what are you holding? Like what's the responsibility? Left side, right side, masculine, feminine, you know, and spending a good. Maybe 45 minutes [00:53:00] just in the shoulder to go, what are you holding?

Lisa Parker: What does it need? Yeah. You know, is it an emotional, is it a nervous system, protective pattern? Um, is it a belief system that I have to, like, I am responsible for my family? 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Or the world or whatever. Or the world, or the company or the world. Yeah. Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: Or is it a sense that, you know, well, I'm not worth it, so, you know, I'll be the martyr.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, a victim consciousness. Oh, I, I have no choice. Life is just happening to me. Like, so there's different layers, you know, so to give yourself to go, okay, is it emotional? Is it energetic? Is it nervous system? Is it belief system? Like what is happening? Or maybe a combination of two or three are all of them.

Lisa Parker: Um, so it's a really slow process of just systematically going through the body and realizing what are you holding? Where did it come from, what does it need? And then the hands on touch really integrates the whole thing out of your body. Mm-hmm. So typically by the time someone finishes a session with me, they're fully integrated.

Matt Kosterman: Oh, wow. 

Lisa Parker: Processing and integrating at the same [00:54:00] time. 

Matt Kosterman: At the same time. And it's in what, the typical length? 5, 5, 6 hours. Five hours, yeah. 

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Five hour process. Um, again, fully dressed, low dose medicine, unexplained pain is my favorite. Mm-hmm. I don't know why the doctor said nothing's wrong, you know, chronic pain, tension.

Lisa Parker: Um, and I have so many stories of like your example of like the shoulder being held up by your dad as you were being spanked. You know, I just had a client maybe a week ago with neck pain, you know, and his head is forward and he realized, oh, he was hit upside the head all the time as a kid. Like his, his dad would just come up behind him smack and just smack him upside the head smack.

Matt Kosterman: So he was always ducking it Yeah. Going forward. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. And he was like, oh, that's, that's why, you know, physiologically he's always Yeah. Hunched forward. Yeah. You know, because of like, just expecting that he's gonna get hit upside the head 

Matt Kosterman: I had, I had a woman that I was in retreat with in the course that I was enrolled in, and I was in retreat.

Matt Kosterman: Earlier this year and after we [00:55:00] did a bunch of anger exercises and she had, she had whiplash and it came from, she as a, in nursery school, a kid tripped her, did something, pushed her, and she, and she'd had whiplash her whole life. And she's in her fifties at least. And, um, I just had, she was really, she couldn't lift her head to eat.

Lisa Parker: Oh, you told Jonathan? Uh, yes. Did 

Matt Kosterman: I tell, did I tell this story? Yeah, keep going though. It's 

Lisa Parker: a good one. Keep going. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And she couldn't lift her head to eat, and I just had this sense of like, I can, I, I need to do, I was standing next to her in line for dinner and she, I, so I worked on her and I didn't myofascial work as Jonathan had, had trained me.

Matt Kosterman: And, and to this day she said it's basically gone. Um, but she also, you know, and she also had a, she had an abusive father. Um, and, and I was just as loving as I could be. I ended up, I ended up, she still couldn't lift her head, so I ended up feeding her, which was really moving to her. That I fed her soup.

Matt Kosterman: She, she couldn't believe that somebody was gonna actually fe cup, of course I'm gonna feed you soup. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. Are [00:56:00] 

Matt Kosterman: you gonna starve? Like you're gonna not eat? 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Um, and sometimes that's all we need. 

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: I mean, literally can be that simple. 

Lisa Parker: Having our needs met. 

Matt Kosterman: Having our needs met, and being 

Lisa Parker: seen 

Matt Kosterman: and being allowed to have needs.

Lisa Parker: Right. Without justification or without question, or without trying to defend. I mean, one of my biggest pet peeves right now is when in our society, if someone's having an emotion, um, people asking for a justification before I validate your emotion. So if I were to come in and say, oh, I'm really anxious about this podcast, and you're like, why?

Lisa Parker: We're friendly. Mm-hmm. It's okay. There's nothing mm-hmm. You know, to be worried about. Right. Or like walking into a house party going, I don't know, I just don't really feel safe. Why? You know, everyone here, it's not that big of a deal. We're only gonna be here for a minute. You know, there's this habit of, you know, just over justify overrid 

Matt Kosterman: and overriding.

Lisa Parker: And if I don't agree with your justification, I'm gonna dismiss your emotion. And that's such a disservice. Yeah. Um, and [00:57:00] there's gender expectations, of course, around emotions and what's appropriate or inappropriate. Um, there's religious expectations, you know, that certain emotions are deemed good or bad, uh, sinful, appropriate, or you know, how we Or appropriate 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah.

Matt Kosterman: Sinful or appropriate, right? Yeah. Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: But like, emotions are an innate part of our human existence. Now, what triggered it, we can talk about how you express the emotion. We can talk about, right. But the validity of, of our experience and, you know, even if we do like inner child work or IFS work, you know, a lot of what we're holding in our system emotionally and energetically and, you know, belief systems, like, just wanna be seen.

Matt Kosterman: It just wants to move. I mean, that was the, you know, the, the, the, the, the powerful work I did with, uh, with Ista, I, I interviewed Rich, um, was one of my facilitators at one of the retreats was the emotions, their energy in motion. Yeah. They want to move through the body. Yep. And once they do, they're usually gone.

Matt Kosterman: It's transient, but [00:58:00] we hold onto them because they're suppressed for any one of these reasons that you 

Lisa Parker: mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: And once you get locked into that pattern 

Lisa Parker: mm-hmm. I mean, 

Matt Kosterman: I, I still have the pattern. I still, you know, something comes up that's a little bit overwhelming and, and if I'm in a, depending on the context, is it, you know, if I'm by myself now and I, you know, something comes up and I feel a need, you know, come, it'll come outta nowhere and all of a sudden I feel I have to cry.

Matt Kosterman: Okay. I just cry. 

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Just fucking cry. 

Lisa Parker: I am, I'm so happy for you that you can do that. Yeah. It's a, you know, our auto autonom nervous system, like a lot of those protective patterns just happen on reflex. It happens without logic or thought. We just, it's what we do suppress, right. It's what we do by default.

Lisa Parker: And it's good that we can do that. Like, if you're, if you're truly in a stressful situation and you need to get yourself to safety, of course you don't wanna fall apart on the side of the street. Right. You know, you need to be able to hold it together. 

Matt Kosterman: Right. 

Lisa Parker: But how often do we allow ourselves to, 

Matt Kosterman: to actually let it go?

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And it's, I mean, the example that's given, you know, in those retreats is, you know, look [00:59:00] at animals. You look at a dog, something. Mm-hmm. Something happens to the dog. Sure. They hold it together to escape the predator or whatever. The adrenaline kicks in and they, they go, but then what do they do? They shake, once they're safe, they shake, and then they're fine.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. And our system actually does that too. Most clients that I work with within the first 20 minutes as the medicine is coming in mm-hmm. They will start having somatic releasing, like shivering, shivering, you know, as though they're cold, but they're not 

Matt Kosterman: cold is cold is old. Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. It's like our system is brilliant.

Lisa Parker: It knows how to come back to regulation if we allow it. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: And so, I mean, we don't naturally, I don't know if humans ever had the capacity to like 

Matt Kosterman: to naturally shake to. I, I mean maybe who knows, back days maybe. Or maybe we 

Lisa Parker: evolved out of it. I don't, I don't know either. But yeah, I 

Matt Kosterman: talked about this on my podcast with, with Janelle, my Pilates, one of my Pilates instructors.

Matt Kosterman: And I mean, I've had probably a dozen and a half instances early on in Pilates where I, I shook for anywhere from five to 25 minutes in Pilates. And I, because I, I, I was fortunate to know that [01:00:00] it was good. I didn't stop it. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. I, 

Matt Kosterman: I leaned into it in fact, because I knew that the body wanted to unwind and as it did things resettled.

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Bones resettled, muscles resettled. 

Lisa Parker: Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: So I love that. I love that, that that, that analogy and that, that, that kind of, that work. I mean this is, this is the stuff right here, folks. Like this is the shit. 

Lisa Parker: I mean, I, of course I'm biased, but this is how I've healed. You know, I've been doing this work for eight years now.

Lisa Parker: Um, hundreds of clients and you know, I have all of these stories of people who have been in psychotherapy for 40 years, um, or decades. I say 40 years. 'cause I'm talking about like one client in particular. Yeah. Um, lower back pain, had a back surgery scheduled. Mm. Came in and did a session and realized his lower back pain was PTSD from an abusive father, you know, and a whole myriad of, of other things.

Lisa Parker: I mean, I can tell stories for days, um, you know, but I do this work because it saved my life. [01:01:00] Right. Um, I was at a point where I didn't even have suicidal ideations because I didn't even have the awareness that that was possible. Mm-hmm. Like I was just a shell of a human. 

Matt Kosterman: Existing, 

Lisa Parker: existing at the whims of whoever was around me.

Lisa Parker: And to have these medicines pull me out to have the body work, to, to know that I can be safe, that I'm a sovereign being, right, that my physical body can be safe, my emotional body, my nervous system that I have say over what happens around me. You know? And I had to kind of figure that out on my own. I mean, I had my sister-in-law that told me about ayahuasca, but there wasn't anyone else in my life to have these conversations with.

Lisa Parker: And so, you know, again, 10 times over. Thank you for the invitation to have this conversation. Yeah. So there's anything I can do to stand in advocacy for anyone else to go. You're not alone, you know that healing is possible. Healing 

Matt Kosterman: is possible. 

Lisa Parker: Um, then I've, I'm, I will and I have [01:02:00] dedicated my life to this.

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Beautiful. I love it. So, um, we'll put, uh, links in. But your, your website is triol do.com, T-R-I-L-O-M-E, 

Lisa Parker: correct. 

Matt Kosterman: Dot com mm-hmm. Where you can reach Lisa, and she's currently on the West coast, but does travel 

Lisa Parker: mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Um, throughout the country. How do you, before we wrap up, how, what, what's, what does a typical engagement look like in terms of, you know, is it preparatory meetings?

Matt Kosterman: Are there, how, how do you, how do you, how, what is, what's your preference? How do you like to work with people? 

Lisa Parker: Yeah, if it's someone that I've never met before, then we'll do a sober body work session first. You know, it's all about nervous system regulation and building safety and security. Um, so someone would come in and do, uh, just a regular body work, again, fully dressed, um, they get to know me, my touch, and if there's a yes that they wanna go further, then we would schedule a trione session.

Lisa Parker: [01:03:00] Um, again, that session is five hours. Um, you know, when they come in, there's a lot of conversation to prep the nervous system and just make sure that there's, you know, full consent mm-hmm. To, you know, what's happening. Um, again, then I would serve a low dose amount of medicine. They get on the table, you know, lead 'em through a, a meditation as the medicine starts to activate and come in.

Lisa Parker: And then it's four hours of, of hands-on work. Um, and then after that is integration soup. All of the typical post ceremony delights to, to ground, you know, before they leave. Okay. Um, I do have, uh, five different practitioners that have graduated from my program. So if you're not in California, um, there's one in Georgia, they'll, there's two soon that'll graduate in Washington, dc um, Minnesota, Washington State.

Lisa Parker: And then there's another one that's with me in California. So, um, part of my goal is to educate and teach, so teaching other body workers and massage therapists how to [01:04:00] safely and ethically do this work. Mm-hmm. Uh, so my next cohort is starting January 5th. Oh, beautiful. And I'm not sure when this is gonna air, but, and then the one after that will be in June.

Lisa Parker: Okay. Um, 

Matt Kosterman: yeah, this, yeah, probably a little after January. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. So starting to build, uh, practitioners outside of myself. Sure. So if you're, if anyone that's listening is interested and you're not in California, hopefully there's someone that's, that's close by. But all of that information is on my website.

Matt Kosterman: Beautiful. Yeah. And again, to reiterate, they aren't, how would you, they aren't Ty, they aren't, the, the sessions from a medicine standpoint aren't typically super trippy. Super. Like it's not, it's not about blasting off and 

Lisa Parker: No. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Not at all. Yeah. It's not a macro experience. It's a low dose.

Lisa Parker: So you have that energetic and spiritual opening to, uh, gain access to the subconscious and that just awareness and knowing of what you're holding. But you're very much conscious of, of the hands-on work that's being done. Mm-hmm. There's [01:05:00] conscious consent the whole time. Mm-hmm. That there's touch. Um, yeah.

Lisa Parker: At any point in time as someone like goes into a deeper process, then the hands come off until the eyes open and they make contact with me. Okay. And they can send again to my hands to. Come back in. Uh, so there's a lot of different ways that I, that I ensure safety. Yeah. With that you, like, I'm not touching you while you're tripping.

Lisa Parker: Right. Somewhere. Right. Like you're, you're with me and there's, there's constant communication between the two of us around. Okay. What are you holding? Well, it's coming up for you. How are you feeling? 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah, so it's a, I would almost, I it's, tell me if this is sounds, it's sort of an, an ex, uh, it's an accelerated way of, of, uh, dropping some of loosening the defenses that he, those defenses, right?

Matt Kosterman: Correct. We're just sometimes this can take, um, you know, like Jonathan does beautiful work. His is most power and I was, I'm trained in it and his most powerful over like a three to five day. Intensive kind of a thing because you want the nervous systems [01:06:00] to get in sync and regulate and be comfortable.

Matt Kosterman: And this is a bit of an acceleration of that process is how it's occurring to me. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah, correct. Yeah. Because of, of how it's working on the brain function, which is why I'm very specific about which medicines I use. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's a whole other, we could have a whole nother 

Matt Kosterman: another podcast about that podcast 

Lisa Parker: about like which medicines we use, but 'cause we're looking at that, that prefrontal cortex, you know, that logical command center to soften.

Lisa Parker: Yeah. And that's what runs the defenses and the, you know, and the defense mechanisms. So just to soften that so the subconscious truths can come through. So yeah, to your point, it's just an accelerated way of. Of really connecting to the, the deeper layers. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And loosening up the armor. Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt Kosterman: Without requiring you to stand naked in front of or stand in your underwear in front of, correct. Yeah. 

Lisa Parker: Well, paying attention to the nervous system, you know, it's not a forcing the nervous system to relax. It's meaning it where it is. Right. And going. Okay. You're defensive for a reason. Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: That's what you, it served you.

Lisa Parker: Yeah. Yeah. [01:07:00] But let's pause with that and go, okay, what are you still defending? Is it still necessary? And then, and only then do you go in deeper. So it's not a forcing of anything, it's just meeting. Yeah. It's meeting your system where it is and who's asking for attention and, you know, 'cause the body will, will adjust and mm-hmm.

Lisa Parker: Rest and come back. I mean, it doesn't wanna be on guard all the time. It wants to rest. Right. 

Matt Kosterman: And it, no, it knows ho you know, ultimately it knows homeostasis ultimately. 

Lisa Parker: Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: It, it, it knows how to heal itself. Correct. But we have to get these protective mechanisms out of the way. Do you do anything with EFT?

Matt Kosterman: I mean, tapping, have you experienced anything with tapping before? Emotional. I have, I 

Lisa Parker: don't do that with, um, with the Trium work just because it can be overstimulating when someone's altered. Okay. Um, I do a lot of cranial sacral uhhuh. Okay. You know, with it, um, in my sober sessions, you know, some tapping.

Lisa Parker: Tapping. Mm-hmm. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I've done it going into ceremony before, like before ingesting, and it's been very powerful to kind of set things up. Um, Alicia, who's another friend who was a guest, she's got a [01:08:00] beautiful method of tapping, of inquiring and, and, and starting the conversation. 

Lisa Parker: Sure. All of the different, yeah.

Lisa Parker: All the 

Matt Kosterman: different tap, uh, trigger points on the head and face and 

Lisa Parker: I mean, it's fascinating. There's so much out there and there's not one way that works for everyone. So I love everyone's creativity. Yeah. And I even tell my practitioners, I'm not teaching a dogma, like, bring your own. There are certain guidelines that I mandate.

Lisa Parker: Right. Specifically, but you know, if a practitioner wants to do tapping beforehand or a practitioner, there's one up in Washington who she'll use Sound Bulls. Okay. You know, I think it's beautiful. Mm-hmm. You know, like bring your own magic. Mm-hmm. Like bring your own way of doing things it. Someone's gonna love that.

Lisa Parker: Right. You know, here's how I do it. But 

Matt Kosterman: yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I mean, 

Lisa Parker: yeah. I love it. Yeah. 

Matt Kosterman: Fabulous. Well thanks so much for being here, for Making the trip. So great to meet you and talk. 

Lisa Parker: Oh, same Again, thank you so much for the conversation. Really enjoyed it. 

Matt Kosterman: Yeah, you bet. Alright, peace out everybody.