S2 • E16 Anderson === Matt Kosterman: Hi, this is Matt Kosterman, and we're back with another episode of "The Permission Slip." Uh, today I am here with Cindy Sear, S-E-E-R, Anderson. She is a mad spiritual scientist and the founder of Soul epiphany, and helps people communicate with their spirit guides. Hey, Cindy. How are you? Cindy Anderson: Hey, Matt. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to see where this conversation Matt Kosterman: for being on. Yeah, me too. Um, so yeah, tell us how you got into this. Let's- I like, kinda like to get the background of people. I know we said we wouldn't go into your sex life, that's another show, but, you know, where, how did you, where did you, did you have a, a, a, before you had helped people communicate with the unseen, uh, forces, what were you doing in life? Cindy Anderson: Very normal, boring left brain Matt Kosterman: Yeah Cindy Anderson: Um, my, my resume is I have, eh, about a semester shy of an electrical engineering degree. Ended up getting a degree in journalism with a minor in psychology, Matt Kosterman: wow Cindy Anderson: starts to get a little bit more interesting. Matt Kosterman: that's a big shift. Cindy Anderson: of my career- Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Cindy Anderson: I mean, I was weird, right? Cindy Anderson: E- everything about me is a little bit weird, so Cindy Anderson: just, Matt Kosterman: we all are. We all are, yeah Cindy Anderson: Yeah. my highest compliment by the way, so that's not a bad thing but, um, I worked in corporate marketing for almost 20 years, just classic Cindy Anderson: corporate indoctrination 'cause that's what it is then went entrepreneurial after that. Cindy Anderson: Uh, was a real estate investor. For me what happened was I got to my mid-40s and I had checked off everything on The List, The List, that's a capital T, that my parents and teachers and everyone gives you or at least in American culture. Go to school, get an education, get a good job, maybe meet somebody nice and settle down, move to the suburbs, buy a house, maybe have some kids. Checked everything off that list and found out much to my surprise there was no happiness trophy at the end of that list which is what I thought i- the list was. You do those things and you got a good Matt Kosterman: Yep. Yep Cindy Anderson: Mm, I mean kinda. I think, I think ultimately that list, I've never actually asked my parents, but I think that list really is about parental approval and financial stability are great but, Matt Kosterman: societal approval. Societal approval. Yeah. Right Cindy Anderson: For sure, yeah. I mean we're all conforming even when we say, "Oh I don't care people think." Uh, so that kind of left me in this place where I was like, Is this all there is?" Is this..." What's my purpose? I, I know it's cliche but midlife crisis existential crisis. What, what's, what's the meaning of Matt Kosterman: Угу, угу Cindy Anderson: led me to ask the question Do I have a guide? And uh, a very surprising set of circumstances followed. Matt Kosterman: So yeah, so you're in this sort of existential midlife crisis. When did you realize you were actually being guided through all of that? Cindy Anderson: Well, when I asked the question, "Do you have a guide?" I got an immediate answer, and then started sort of putting together that the guidance had always been there. I just didn't identify it as such. I thought that everyone had conversations in their head about Cindy Anderson: things, worked out challenges, and it turns out maybe not. Cindy Anderson: I don't know. Matt Kosterman: Well, how did you dis- Cindy Anderson: I had always been Matt Kosterman: how did you discern... So I mean, certainly I have conversations in my head and, and have heard very distinctly from guides at time to time, but how did you discern the different voice? That, like, that it was, that it was coming from not your head? Yeah Cindy Anderson: versus internal? Yeah. Um, think the answer to that is it- it starts with things that I couldn't have created in a million years. I'm just not that creative When you get, when you get a story that's like, uh ... Yeah, I'm not a creative writer. I'm an excellent writer, but not a Matt Kosterman: Okay，okay Cindy Anderson: Right. Cindy Anderson: So s- so hearing things at... One of the first things my guide said to me was, "Your life as you know it is over." So I've always been a little Pollyanna. I was like, my ship has come in. All the good things Cindy Anderson: are coming. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Cindy Anderson: Yeah, that's not really what they meant What they meant was we gotta level everything and rebuild 'cause you're not on the path that you're supposed to be on, kid Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So yeah, a little, a, a little different, uh, a little different outcome than you, you expected. You were, you were, yeah Cindy Anderson: yeah. I mean naive. It's hilarious in retrospect. Though I didn't find it all that hilarious at the time but Matt Kosterman: So what did that, so they took, took apart the, what everything got taken apart, the job, the Cindy Anderson: Yeah, yeah. Um, slowly but surely, uh, I started changing everything about my life. Um, sort of tossed my business in the dumpster, ended my relationship, sold all my investment properties. Uh, you know, a, a whole shift in everything that I was doing and it was, was a lot at the time. Of course, I was like, "What is happening?" And, know, "Is this, is this my path?" They said very consistently all along, this is, this is part of your calling and you're here to, to help heal Matt Kosterman: Okay Cindy Anderson: but if I had seen the whole picture, oh boy, I would have maybe looked at it a little bit differently. Cindy Anderson: Now today I can look back and say intellectually that makes sense. I can see that... And I can, I can name several points in my life that or may not have had anything to do with my guides, but when things that we consider bad or negative happen, often they're clearing the way for something positive. So, you know, 20 years ago when I got laid off from my corporate job, uh, you know, that was a disaster at that moment in my life. Cindy Anderson: But it led me to be entrepreneurial, which is ultimately where I was supposed to be, and I never woulda just left that job because how do you give up the Matt Kosterman: Sure. Sure. You nee- yeah, you needed the interim step of going into the real estate. Um, so what was the... Did, did everybody think you'd lost your mind? Or were you doing it? Cindy Anderson: Well, I didn't talk Matt Kosterman: Oh, okay. Oh, okay Cindy Anderson: it They thought I was just, you know, going through a, a, a breakup and a, Matt Kosterman: Okay. Cindy Anderson: life change or Matt Kosterman: Got it. Cindy Anderson: Um, Matt Kosterman: this was what? This was ha- going back how long? 15 years? Cindy Anderson: Uh, this was Matt Kosterman: 12 years ago, okay Cindy Anderson: my guide showed up in my life on June 5th of 2014. Matt Kosterman: OK Cindy Anderson: Uh, that, that date is, you know, lives in infamy, infamy in my mind. Cindy Anderson: I call it sort of a death date and also a birth Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Cindy Anderson: if that makes Matt Kosterman: Totally. They always go together Cindy Anderson: Yes, they do, Matt Kosterman: They do, yeah Cindy Anderson: Yes. And, and it's an endless cycle in Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Cindy Anderson: so yeah. I think I might as well- Matt Kosterman: Yeah. No, I, I mean, I, m- mine was much more violent. I went-- I did for- di- divorce, foreclosure, and bankruptcy all together back in 20- 2009. So Cindy Anderson: Oh, yeah. The, the Matt Kosterman: the trifecta. Cindy Anderson: happiness. Yeah. The three-legged Cindy Anderson: stool. I mean, you gotta have three Cindy Anderson: legs on the Matt Kosterman: you gotta do 'em all or you're gonna wonder, you know? Cindy Anderson: Well, and wonder- Yeah, I can, I can totally relate. So i- initially I didn't talk Cindy Anderson: about it, um, and I think that's one of the things, you know, if, if you said what, what, what would you like to communicate to my listeners, I would love for your listeners to understand that w- I think my opinion is that most people have, um, something that you might throw in the metaphysical experience bucket, whether it's, you know, moments of telepathy or moments of knowing or strong nudges, gut instinct, whatever you wanna call it, society's taught us that that's weird so we don't talk about it. And I think we're, uh, kind of all going around experiencing some pretty extraordinary things but not sharing that with each other, is, um, unfortunate, and I'm That's part of my mission is to, to normalize what I think is actually normal but has been put in a shameful Matt Kosterman: Yo, 100%. Yeah. I mean, es- and I think Cindy Anderson: Yeah. Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: for, humans who are currently in, in women's body the, the witch wound is, is still, uh... It can, it can still be quite raw. I mean, there was a-- many times in history, um, where they were heavily-- You know, people with these abilities were heavily persecuted and, and the fact is that we all have these abilities. Matt Kosterman: Um, it was just that women tended to generally be more, and do still tend to be more in touch with their intuition and, and their guidance, um, than men. But I agree with you Cindy Anderson: you think, do you think that that's, uh, do you think that that's a in- inherent capability skill or do you think there's conditioning in there, the difference between men and women? Matt Kosterman: I think it's a little bit of both. It's probably more conditioning than anything, but I mean, it's my belief like it sounds like yours is that we all have-- I mean and, and everything that I read and everything that I'm told from other humans who channel, you know, non-physical beings is that we all have these capabilities. Matt Kosterman: We can all talk to our guides. We can all... I mean if y- I like to look at, uh, things from a meta perspective across generations. If you look at communication in general, it started with none. Like we didn't communicate right? Cindy Anderson: Right. Matt Kosterman: some point there was grunting or whatever and, you know, and then it's cave paintings and then it's smoke signals and then it's the telegraph and it's, you know, letters in the mail and then it becomes the telephone and the radio and the television and the computers and now it's the watch. Matt Kosterman: And I mean if you just look at it, to me it's obvious that we're moving towards knowing that we can communicate telepathically. Like it's, it's, Cindy Anderson: I Matt Kosterman: it's the next step. It's the next logical step and I see people opening to it all the time in my -- I've, I've had um, I mean I had my own whether you-- I don't know I, I don't know if it was my higher self or it was a spirit guide but I was sitting in meditation in Sedona in 2021. Matt Kosterman: I was doing-- I'd been there a year before for some really great body work. I was back for like ten days or two weeks working with different people and I did a meditation and I was doing some meditation up at the beautiful Amitabha Stupa. That's t-the body of the Buddha. I don't know if you've been there before but that's one of m-, yeah, one of my favorite places. Matt Kosterman: And I'm sitting there under the little hut and all of a sudden this booming voice goes "You are not your father." Cindy Anderson: Oh yeah, and have you checked out the Mandela Effect? 'Cause apparently that's not what he actually said. A friend tried to tell me this the Matt Kosterman: Oh, no, what's that? Cindy Anderson: not said." And I was like, "What?" Matt Kosterman: Oh, oh, oh, oh. In, in the book... Oh, uh, that was-- That's the whole "I am your father," Luke. Yeah, yeah. Right. I- No, I Cindy Anderson: yeah。Yeah, yeah Matt Kosterman: it, but this just, this-- I was just like, "What?" You know? Whoa! Burst out crying, like, 'cause I'm not, but I had this story in my head. Uh, 'cause I happened to, as I grew up, I looked a lot and, and had his mannerisms and looked a lot like him. Matt Kosterman: And oh, you know, when you're 12 years old and 13, "Oh, you look just like your dad." And then I wanted to, Cindy Anderson: Right Matt Kosterman: similar to you, follow the path. I was gonna be in business. I was gonna make all the money. I was gonna do all the things. So it was like this smack across the face. So yeah. Um, so yeah, I, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and I, I, um... Matt Kosterman: Yeah, 100%. So you've got these... Is, is it, is it multiple voices that are having the conversation with you in your case or w- Cindy Anderson: Yeah. Um, so my, my guide's, uh, name is Helios, and Helios is a collective consciousness, so it's as far as I know or at least, uh, the answers I've been able to get, it's about 100 Matt Kosterman: OK Cindy Anderson: that are collectively working together. So it comes across as one voice. It's not like I hear... It's not like walking into a room of 100 people. Cindy Anderson: Nothing like that. It's, it's a, uh, a singular contact point. But that's the collection of individuals. Um, and I don't actually hear voices. I kinda think I hear voices. I don't ... What you just described, that, like, booming sound, I don't, I don't Cindy Anderson: get that. I don't see anything in particular. I just have a knowing. And when I say a knowing, it's not, um, it's not like, uh, sentences or conversation like you and I are having. It's more like a complete conceptual download. So things come in at the system Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. So are, are you, uh, have you heard of the word a- uh, aphantasia? Cindy Anderson: I have, but I don't know what Matt Kosterman: So a, uh, aphant-- an aphantasic is somebody who doesn't see any images when they close their eyes. And, and I am, I'm one of those, which is a bit ironic because I work as a photographer in the 3D. So when I close... If you say, like if I say to you apple, and like picture- close your eyes and picture an apple, do you see a red fruit? Matt Kosterman: Do you see s- do you see a vision of a red fruit? I don't. I see blackness. Cindy Anderson: Interesting. Matt Kosterman: But I, I re- I relate to the knowingness that you're talking about, the ... E- especially I've done a lot of work with, with medicine, with psychedelics, and, and it's never... It's very, very seldom any pictures, but it's just like there's just a oh, that. Matt Kosterman: Like, it's just there Cindy Anderson: Right. Right. the one thing that I've found that's consistent is... So different people get their connection in different ways. Obviously some are more visual, some are more, get more auditory. Uh, but the one thing that has been consistent across my students is that the body is essentially the antenna the first indicator that you're getting some kind of download. So Matt Kosterman: more about that Cindy Anderson: although it's- Yeah, so, so there's something that I c- that I call, uh, the fingerprint signature, and the fingerprint signature is a sensation that you get indicates that you're just about to or in the process of downloading information. So for me, my fingerprint signature is, it's a sensation in my heart. a warmth almost like a maybe al- almost a little bit of pressure, but mostly warmth. And when I draw people's awareness to this so that they start paying attention, it's super helpful because once you identify what your fingerprint signature is, like for you, it might be, Matt Kosterman: My- mine's goo- Cindy Anderson: an Matt Kosterman: mine's goosebump- Cindy Anderson: ear. Matt Kosterman: I get, I get energy, Cindy Anderson: Goosebumps? Matt Kosterman: flows through my whole body. That's, that's why we're having this conversation, because it was suggested that I do a podcast and my whole body lit up like, like it's never lit up before Cindy Anderson: Okay, so it's not in one Matt Kosterman: No, all over. Cindy Anderson: uh, all, all Cindy Anderson: throughout. Okay, so there's, there's your fingerprint signature, and that's awesome because now that you know that, that helps you differentiate and discern monkey Matt Kosterman: Yeah, truth Cindy Anderson: your, you know, your great grandma who was very stern's voice in your head. Whatever, whatever thing that we create in our human experience, now you know, okay, that's, that's my guidance system. Whatever you wanna call your guidance system. Matt Kosterman: Sure. And so, Cindy Anderson: You can call it almost anything you Matt Kosterman: so it, it, and is, was that, were you present to that on, what, you said June 5th, was it? Uh, in 20- 20... Cindy Anderson: No. Matt Kosterman: W- Cindy Anderson: So I, I'm a, I'm a complete spiritual idiot up until Matt Kosterman: Okay. Cindy Anderson: probably still a spiritual idiot but, you know, Matt Kosterman: Bless up Cindy Anderson: Um no not a clue and in fact um never noticed it for probably about 10 years and then when I started trying to take everything that I knew and put it into a process than I got the download. Hey dummy y- this is how you know you get the Matt Kosterman: OK Cindy Anderson: or start talking about these concepts my guide's giving me basically they're giving me my program they're giving me the process and they're saying this fingerprint signature and we talk about what that looks like and how to help people recognize it and then the question n- uh naturally comes what yours? Cindy Anderson: And I'm like w-- I... What? And then you notice it and suddenly it's like if someone says hey Matt have you ever seen a pink Cindy Anderson: car? Matt Kosterman: Yeah Cindy Anderson: go no that's stupid who has pink cars? And then as soon as you say that next week you'll see like four pink cars and you'll be like wow! I just never noticed before. So once you get that fingerprint signature now it's there and you're ready to use it but Matt Kosterman: I had no idea Cindy Anderson: is one of the small ways in which I help people shortcut the process. Hey you don't have to spend 12 years figuring this out. Matt Kosterman: Well, that's key in Cindy Anderson: here's one of the pieces that, that would've been really useful to me but I didn't have it at Cindy Anderson: the Matt Kosterman: yeah, sure. It's funny I go back to the pink car 'cause I would actually, I would argue that you make the pink cars appear Cindy Anderson: There you Cindy Anderson: go. Matt Kosterman: you, if you set, if you set an intention in the morning to see pink cars, you will see pink cars. Cindy Anderson: Угу. Matt Kosterman: l- I, I've al- I-- For years, I had driven sort of, uh, you know, like dark green, dark blue, gray, you know, kinda cars, and I... Matt Kosterman: A year and a half ago, I wanted to buy a new car, and it was already on the lot. Uh, and it was this, uh, sort of a m- it was a very, not a bright blue, but a, a rich blue with little hints of purple. And, and I remember thinking like, "Wow, okay, this is pretty loud," you know, like this thing compared to what I... And, and for the next week all I saw were these blue cars. Matt Kosterman: There's tons of cars that are this color everywhere. Yeah. Cindy Anderson: and you're like, "Hey, I'm not Matt Kosterman: Yeah. No, I am, but yeah, not just, not Cindy Anderson: I mean, of course we all are. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So y- so, so you heard this voice. You spent... Did you s- uh, did you spend time, uh, with external trainers? With, with mystics, with psychics, with guides or you just have done, Cindy Anderson: Nope. Matt Kosterman: it all? Cindy Anderson: all Matt Kosterman: Beautiful Cindy Anderson: And, and actually at some point in the process of just making this connection and starting to think about developing something, I made a very conscious effort to not make myself aware of what's happening out there because I didn't want to pollute any of my concepts with something that was, you Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Cindy Anderson: my thing, if that makes Matt Kosterman: Yeah, for sure Cindy Anderson: I wanted it to be pure and I wanted to be able to test independently so if, if someone that you really trust says, "Well, it's this way," then you tend to kind of think it's... It's sort of like a jury tampering right? Like you know if you've seen on the news about the big murder case they tend to kick you out of the jury because you're not unbiased Matt Kosterman: Yeah Cindy Anderson: some of that approach uh, was in my Matt Kosterman: Well, yeah, and ult-- I Cindy Anderson: intentionally in Cindy Anderson: my Matt Kosterman: ultimately, you know, you are the guru is the, like, Cindy Anderson: Oof. Matt Kosterman: y- Cindy Anderson: No, I'm the Cindy Anderson: anti-guru, Matt. Matt Kosterman: I mean for yourself. For yourself, for ourse- for each, each of us is the guru for ourself. I mean, I, I've, I've gone, yeah, I mean, I've gone the opposite route and, and chased down, 'cause I love to triangulate and see how this one is saying the same thing as that one, and they all say the same thing. Matt Kosterman: They all point back to, you know, to it's you. It's you. Cindy Anderson: Yep, I, I agree wholeheartedly. I tell people, "Don't trust me, bro." This is not about me or what I say. on over, I'll give you an experience, and then you can base your belief system on what you experience. And then that's between you and your guide. That's your personal relationship. Matt Kosterman: what does that... Cindy Anderson: kind of like Matt Kosterman: Go ahead Cindy Anderson: No, I was gonna say, like, if you had a, a sex therapist, since you brought up the tantric, Matt Kosterman: Ja. Cindy Anderson: podcast Matt Kosterman: Ja Cindy Anderson: If you had a sex therapist, you know, sh- she or he might give you... I don't know why Dr. Ruth of course pops in my head. She or he is going to give you advice, but you're not inviting them to sit in the corner of your Matt Kosterman: Right. Right. Cindy Anderson: So same, Matt Kosterman: Same thing, yeah Cindy Anderson: You get the relationship, it's yours, you get to define what it's for and what it means and all of Matt Kosterman: Yeah, so what does that look like? Walk me through what, uh, how you help people, how you work with people Cindy Anderson: Yeah. Um, I originally I started with this big comprehensive how can you change your life in all these positive ways kind of coaching program, and then I realized, yeah, that, that doesn't fit with our five-second attention span society. What we need is a quick win. Everybody wants Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And nobo- nobody actually wants to change their life. They, ri- I mean, Cindy Anderson: Well, Matt Kosterman: right? Cindy Anderson: too. Matt Kosterman: They just want it to be, yeah, just wanna feel good. They just wanna feel good with the life they have Cindy Anderson: point. Yes. They wanna enjoy the, the day that they're Cindy Anderson: having Matt Kosterman: yeah Cindy Anderson: Um, so I turned it into a, uh, sort of a quick win design process, a five-day process where at the beginning you say, "Cindy, I think you're nuts. Spirit guides don't exist." And by day five, f-five like half hour Matt Kosterman: OK Cindy Anderson: on day five, you get what I call your magic moment, where you get to ask your guide a question of your choosing and get an immediate and clear response Matt Kosterman: Nice. Okay Cindy Anderson: So that's the mechanical. What do we do in that, in those sessions? obviously do, you know, we do mind work, we do body work. Um, we learn how to recognize the, the communication that our guide's providing, make a connection, and we start to build trust just like any, any communic- any relationship. You and I just met, um, we don't, you know, we don't jump into... Cindy Anderson: Let's say that you're unmarried and I'm unmarried, we don't jump into marriage Matt Kosterman: Yeah Cindy Anderson: We, we get to know each other, we talk, we build trust. S- All the same stuff applies with a guide. So a big part of the process is building trust back and forth both directions, not just that your guide is there for your benefit and has wisdom to share, but that you're, open and willing to, um, at least consider the things that they bring to you Matt Kosterman: Okay. And these sessions are typically Zoom? Cindy Anderson: Yeah, typically Matt Kosterman: typical, yeah. Do you wor- Cindy Anderson: Although at some point I would love to do them in person, but Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Cindy Anderson: u-up to this point they've been Matt Kosterman: And have you facilitated any groups at all? Cindy Anderson: I Matt Kosterman: You do both. You do both Cindy Anderson: I do, uh, yeah, I do both small groups and, uh, Matt Kosterman: And one-on-ones. Got it, got it. And h-- and, and uh, how do you know... How do you help people with the knowingness that the guide is for their highest and best intention? That it's not a trickster guide, that it's... 'Cause there's a lot, you know, I-- Do you know who Paul Selig is? Are you familiar with Paul? He's a, Cindy Anderson: I Matt Kosterman: he's a conscious channel, and he, he loves to say, you know, just something to the effect of just, "Just because it's not in a body doesn't mean it's, you know, like all love and light," like it, like it's good for you Cindy Anderson: Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, one of the first things, uh, related to that is that I want people to think of their guide not as some kind of master or commander or, dare I say, god with a small G. They're literally a, a co-pilot. They're a, a trusted advisor. I would like you to remain CEO of your life always. Your guide's likely going to push your boundaries, maybe push you outside of your comfort zone, and that's all to the good. If they're pushing you against, directly against your belief systems, your values, then that's, that's a, a line that everybody needs to be able to draw. So it's, it's up for discussion, but it's not command or demand. Cindy Anderson: It's, "Okay, here's an idea." and then as far as discerning that whether or not some- whether or not the guide is, is for your best interest, that's again built through, through time and trust. Cindy Anderson: Uh, we do some, we do some basic, um, protocols, safety protocols, for lack of a better word, where we specifically ask for our guide and we, you know, invite them in to come communicate with us. I teach my students if anything ever feels off, just stop. Just stop, take a minute, go put your feet on the ground outside, Matt Kosterman: Угу Cindy Anderson: come back, and if, if it's not right, then it, it's gonna be a tomorrow. Just like you wouldn't, you know... Something, something bad happens at work, someone pisses you off, it's sometimes it's not the right time to go and deal with it when you're in that kind of heat of the moment. Those things will happen with your guide communication too. Sometimes you're just not in the right Matt Kosterman: Not... Cindy Anderson: not in the right head space, and so disconnect and Matt Kosterman: Yeah, try again Yeah, disconnect, disconnect and try again. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cindy Anderson: Try again Matt Kosterman: yep Cindy Anderson: or, or, or, you know, do something to kind of ground yourself. I'd typically recommend, like I said, actually touching the Matt Kosterman: Right Cindy Anderson: Uh, water is a great grounder, uh, whether it's hop in the shower or jump in a Matt Kosterman: Ja Cindy Anderson: go stick your feet in the lake Matt Kosterman: Yeah, over the ocean. Yeah, beautiful. And so, Cindy Anderson: Yep, yep Matt Kosterman: so it's a five-day, it's a five-day process. Uh, it's y- that's how it works. This is what you do. Yep Cindy Anderson: Yeah. So, uh, I do... Like I said, I do, I do a group version. Um, what I would suggest for your listeners if they're interested, if they w- think they might have a guide and wanna get in, in contact or they think they don't have a guide and feel like they'd try to pro- like to try to prove me wrong, that's great Matt Kosterman: Sure。 Cindy Anderson: Um, it's called the Call Your Guide Challenge. It's five days, and the challenge is by the end get the contact with your guide. Um, that's complimentary so if people wanna check that out, I Matt Kosterman: Oh, nice. Cindy Anderson: suggest Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Cindy Anderson: Do that. Matt Kosterman: Y- yeah, and we'll have all the, the... We'll have the info 'cause it's, uh, Soul- Soulpiphany is your website? Soul, yeah. Oh, I wrote, I wrote Souppiphany, but I read it, I read it correctly. Soulpiphany. Um, so talk about, uh, what are some success stories of, of, uh, you know, about of people that you've, uh, Cindy Anderson: Yeah. Yeah, Matt Kosterman: with their guides? Cindy Anderson: Uh, I've had some really interesting ones. Um, I'm gonna tell you one that's, uh, sort of relates to what we were talking about earlier, about me feeling like a lot of people are having experiences but they don't talk about them. my mother, um, had me later in life, so she's been passed away for eight years now. Cindy Anderson: Um, one of her... Well, two things happened. First, uh, after she passed away, we found a bunch of letters that she had written to everyone in the family. She apparently had some routine where whenever she and my dad would go on international vacations, she, I guess, thought she might die, so she'd write "I love you" letters to Matt Kosterman: Lovely. Beautiful. Cindy Anderson: So which is actually really Matt Kosterman: Yeah Cindy Anderson: right? And we found these after she passed away. So, there's this letter from my mom that basically says w- in a nutshell it basically says, um, "I believe that I'll," you know, "be in the nonphysical by your side for all eternity." And I was like, whoa. and I shared some really interesting beliefs. Cindy Anderson: We never talked Matt Kosterman: うんうん。 う Cindy Anderson: um, about six months ago, one of her very closest friends, who's in her late 80s now, her husband passed away, and she reached out to me and said ... And I've known this woman most of my life. Uh, she said to me, "Hey Cindy, I'm, I'm interested in, in doing this challenge with you." Cindy Anderson: And I said, "All right, cool. Let's do it She starts talking about how she's had a lot of, m- I guess you'd call them psychic experiences. She has a little bit of precognitive capability, definitely got some Matt Kosterman: んうん、うんうん。 Before, Cindy Anderson: it her whole life because the people around her... preacher told her that was evil. Um, her husband thought it was weird when she could tell him, you know, w- when they were dating, she said that she could tell him what, what th- what he was wearing and did he look nice that day, and it freaked him out, so she stopped talking about it. Matt Kosterman: before they, b- before they got together. Cindy Anderson: She reaches Matt Kosterman: Bef- Matt Kosterman: yeah, yeah, yeah Cindy Anderson: yes. So she reaches out and says, "Let's, let's do this thing," and, and the point of the conversation is that she said to me, "Well, uh I have had this experience, but I've never talked about it to anyone." She's literally my mom's best friend. They've been friends for 50 Cindy Anderson: years. They'd never talked about it. Cindy Anderson: My mom and I had never talked about it, and now this woman and I were having this conversation after my mom's passed away about it, and it was like, hey, there's a, there's a problem here. And so I, I feel like my job is to say, It's okay to talk about it. These things aren't weird. You know what's actually weird? Cindy Anderson: Is pretending that you don't occasionally know something that you should have no business knowing. Matt Kosterman: Right, right Cindy Anderson: Um, so her success story was actually pretty simple, but she basically was like, "I've spent my whole life caring for other people. I've had kids. I've had a husband that was a gigantic child." Uh, he's six foot five and the biggest baby you ever met. Cindy Anderson: So she's been caring for people her whole life, and here she is, 88, suddenly widowed, and she's like, "Now what? What do I do with my life? What's my purpose?" so I got her connected with their guide. She, uh, she had two things that are funny about it. She said, uh, "I've learned that I actually enjoy watching TV without balls on it." Matt Kosterman: Without what? Cindy Anderson: And no, this isn't in reference to the tantric thing earlier. She's not a sports Cindy Anderson: fan, but she'd been Matt Kosterman: oh. Cindy Anderson: sports Matt Kosterman: Oh, God. Cindy Anderson: her husband was Matt Kosterman: Sports constantly, yeah Cindy Anderson: And and she stopped feeling guilty about that. I can watch the TV that I enjoy now. And the other thing was she kept searching. I want, I want purpose, I want purpose, I want purpose. Cindy Anderson: And the big thing that she got out of the connection with your guide was purpose doesn't have to be the big massive calling. It could just be living purposeful minutes. This moment we're having a purposeful conversation. Later this afternoon you might have, you know, dinner with your wife, and that's a purposeful And i- it doesn't have to be this big, like, calling Matt Kosterman: Yeah Cindy Anderson: So for her that was huge, huge shift, and she's not asking what her purpose anymore is. She's just enjoying her days every single day. She's getting up and doing something that she thinks Matt Kosterman: Amazing. Yeah, I had a very purposeful nap this afternoon Cindy Anderson: That's a real Matt Kosterman: A purpose-- yeah, and I l- I love that. That's beautiful, and it, it aligns with the teachings that come through Paul that I talked about earlier is that, you know, we all are looking for some grand purpose, and what if our purpose... What if just being here in this plane is our purpose? If we're, we're s- we're serving our soul, uh, lessons in, in the physical things that we can't.... Matt Kosterman: Uh, my friend Laura O'Malley who channels th-, you know, they-- her guides like to say that back home where, where our energy returns, where it always is, everything is love and light all the time. There's, there's no low vibration, there's no fear, there's no shame, there's no anger, and it's very beautiful, and it gets a little boring Cindy Anderson: I was gonna say, and it's a Matt Kosterman: And that's a little boring and, and, and we-- I, I like to look at it n- not always 'cause I get angry and I get shameful and I get, you know, whatever, uh, fearful, but we, we come into these bodies in this dense physical plane in order to have contrast Cindy Anderson: I Matt Kosterman: Right? Matt Kosterman: In order to, to... You can't know love without hate. You can't know white without Black. Um, and, and so the, that-- what if that's the purpose and sort of, you know, let the rest of it go and see what happens? Cindy Anderson: Yeah. I, I hear you. I mean, we, we put s- these big, hats on things. In fact, that's one of the things that I say about the Call Your Guide challenge is there are no success Cindy Anderson: metrics. If we don't get you a con- contact with your guide PS, we Cindy Anderson: will. But if we don't, nobody failed. It's not, it's not that kind of challenge. Cindy Anderson: It's Matt Kosterman: Ja Cindy Anderson: I mean, we get so obsessed with that stuff, right? Like, "I must Matt Kosterman: Achieve Cindy Anderson: and it's like, what if you just enjoyed... I call this Tuesday morning spirituality. What if you just, Tuesday just went a little bit easier? You got up, you're a normal human, you have worldly concerns like rent, and responsibilities, and getting to work safely. What if that day just went a little bit smoother? You had a few more laughs, a few less tears, little less conflict. Matt Kosterman: Ja. Ja Cindy Anderson: That can be pretty profound. It doesn't have to be, "Oh my God, my calling is to do big thing Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, the sky, yeah, the sky opens and thunder and lightning and Cindy Anderson: Right, right, right. Yeah, there's, there's not a lot of thunder and lightning necessary. I mean, that's cool if you want thunder and lightning, Matt Kosterman: Sure Cindy Anderson: You mentioned medicine, so, you know, go do an ayahuasca trek, but, and you can chase gargoyles through the forest. That's Cindy Anderson: awesome. Matt Kosterman: Right Cindy Anderson: But I'll, I'm gonna, when you come back I'm gonna say, "So Matt, how does that help your Tuesday morning?" Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Cindy Anderson: So. But there's, there's no Matt Kosterman: No, there Cindy Anderson: For some people it is. It's the big spiritual experience. That's what Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I've had a lot of them, and they're great, yeah. Cindy Anderson: I'm more in the practical Matt Kosterman: Sure. Yeah, well, and I think the big, the big spiritual experiences are, are fabulous, and then you gotta bring it back on the court, and what are you doing differently, what are you doing differently in your life? Whether it's the big spiritual experience or the experience of meeting your guide, like, what, what are you gonna do with the information? Matt Kosterman: And that... Cindy Anderson: I mean, we still have to live Matt Kosterman: Yeah Cindy Anderson: Even if we, if we have those big experiences, we still have the trappings of the human experience, so Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and we will. Cindy Anderson: we're kind of stuck with Matt Kosterman: We're kind of stuck with it, and we chose it. Cindy Anderson: Or at least for Matt Kosterman: A- and we chose it. We're, here we are. Um So the Find Your Guide Challenge, do you work with people then like one-on-ones to go deeper, to g- to connect with more, to, you know, what the coaching? How do you- Cindy Anderson: Yeah. The, the challenge is one-on-one. Um, and if people wanna go further then that's of course a to do coa- coaching or an advanced course where it gets more into, uh, more advanced forms of communication and then of how do you integrate that into your life? 'Cause that ultimately becomes the question is, okay w-, is great, now what do I do with Matt Kosterman: うんうん、うん。 Yeah. Cindy Anderson: ne- one of those nine in one Cindy Anderson: tools. Matt Kosterman: the Leatherman, yeah Cindy Anderson: you don't really wanna just run around the house and start cutting things that, that probably won't end well so like how do we integrate Matt Kosterman: Sure. Um, and so then you, th- there's regular, regular coaching with that. And I had another que- yeah Cindy Anderson: Yep Matt Kosterman: Sorry, I had another one pop into my head and just poof, it went away. Um, oh, uh, talk about any challenging, challenging experiences that people have had in, in the, with these connections? With resistance or Cindy Anderson: definitely... Yeah, I've definitely had, um, a few skeptics through my Cindy Anderson: programs, actually really enjoy the skeptics. one of the things that I like about them is that they don't have ton of ... They haven't been dabbling in the spiritual industry forever, so they don't have a bunch of ideas about what would the rules are, you know? Cindy Anderson: 'Cause a lot of gurus out there have this is the rule book. These are the commandments of the spiritual Cindy Anderson: universe. Matt Kosterman: to, Cindy Anderson: must Matt Kosterman: your ha- Cindy Anderson: never do Matt Kosterman: hands need to be like this, and your head needs to be like this, and, Cindy Anderson: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: like I, I like to say in the... Or Ram Dass liked to say, "In, in the face of the absolute, it all falls away." Cindy Anderson: You're right. Right, so the skeptics don't do that. They don't have... they don't come in and tell me, "No, Cindy, you're not doing it right." They're not gonna tell me I'm not an expert on Cindy Anderson: meditation. I'm not an expert on meditation. I've meditated enough to be an honorary Cindy Anderson: monk, but I don't consider myself a meditation expert. You know, they might say, "You're doing it wrong." Okay, Matt Kosterman: Right. Cindy Anderson: I'm doing it wrong. It's Cindy Anderson: working for me. so that's the first part of the skeptic. The second part is that they definitely enjoy it as--they literally kind of take it as a challenge, like, "I, I don't, I don't buy it, so let's prove you wrong," and for me, that's a lot of fun, and then they get a big wow reaction when they do. Cindy Anderson: So, one of my friends, her name's Kia, early on when I first started testing things, I was asking, you know, friendlies. I wanted to bring friendlies in to Matt Kosterman: Right Cindy Anderson: so I, I asked some of my friends, "Hey, do you wanna, you wanna do this challenge with me?" And, uh, she said, you know, of course she wanted to support me, but she wasn't sure. Cindy Anderson: She was a little uncomfortable Matt Kosterman: うんうん。 う Cindy Anderson: "What would I be calling in? And is that, is that devil worship?" You know, Matt Kosterman: んうん、うんうん。 OK Cindy Anderson: don't feel any obligation, seriously." I thought, "She's not gonna do it." A couple days later, she comes back and says, "Well, I did what you asked me to do to prep for the challenge, and I'm in." And I was like, "Oh, didn't expect that." Her sister had talked to her about it. Her sister was --she's a little Matt Kosterman: Okay Cindy Anderson: And her sister was like, "Girl, you gotta do this. This is so cool. Do it. And also, I'm coming with you." Matt Kosterman: Ja, Cindy Anderson: So we did the challenge. Yeah, and, and so Kia is lovely woman, very successful, uber-driven, I would say probably a Type A personality if she's listening. Don't take that any, any kinda negative way. But you know, she's got 47 business, uh, businesses, and she's running a family, and she's got everybody in Matt Kosterman: Yeah Cindy Anderson: yeah, to-do list that's a mile long. Cindy Anderson: Girl-- I'm pretty sure the girl doesn't Matt Kosterman: Aha. Cindy Anderson: Energizer bunny kinda action. on day four of the challenge, uh, one of the things we do is we ask your guide, "Well, what would be something that would be beneficial for me to do now in this moment after we get off the call?" And her guide said, "Well, go, go sit on the patio with a beverage And Kia was like, "What will I do?" Well just go sit on the patio Cindy Anderson: with a beverage. And she's like, "Yeah, but what Cindy Anderson: will I Matt Kosterman: I do Cindy Anderson: What will I think about? How will this work?" You know, because she just, in her words, she would say, "I just don't stop. I literally never stop." And she doesn't. So we chuckled about it, and then, uh, a couple hours later I get a picture, a selfie that she took of her sitting on the patio drinking a glass of wine this big smile on her face, and I was like, "Good for you, girl." Cindy Anderson: And the, the message said, you know, "I'm, I'm following my spirit guide's Cindy Anderson: advice." Matt Kosterman: ja Cindy Anderson: Uh, and the next day she says to me, "That was kinda nice. I think I might need to do more Cindy Anderson: of that," Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Imagine that. Cindy Anderson: relaxing Matt Kosterman: relaxing thing Cindy Anderson: it's, i- it's a small thing, right? It's small, but when you talk about, you know, affecting your life, that's a, that's a big kind of shift in, in the way you're thinking and how you execute life, Matt Kosterman: Oh, totally. Yeah. And we don't... You know, these, these, uh, these bodies of ours are very dense and our patterns and our habits are very ingrained in. Um, it's, it's rare to just make a U-turn or make a 90 degree, you know, hard left when you're going 90 miles an hour. So any little, Cindy Anderson: Right Matt Kosterman: little kind of shunting, uh, of the course-- Little course corrections are, are super useful. Matt Kosterman: There's, there's one book out there about, uh, you know, make-- Y- go back to your earlier point of can, can you make your life 1% better tomorrow? What, what can you do to make it 1% better? 'Cause if you can do that tomorrow and the next day and the next day, it's not gonna be long before it's 100% better with compounding and all that Cindy Anderson: And, and what if the whole world made a 1% change? kind of ripple effect could that have? Matt Kosterman: Absolutely. And, and, and I-- what I find, and I kinda get on a soapbox about this, but everybody, everybody wants everybody else to make Matt Kosterman: 1% change in their... Cindy Anderson: Right, Matt Kosterman: Right? you Matt Kosterman: change. You have the problem. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, Cindy Anderson: Yeah Matt Kosterman: one of my favorite, you know, sayings, and I actually read that it wasn't similar to the Darth Vader quote. It wasn't actually what he said, but the Gandhi purported Gandhi quote of, "Be the change you want to see in the world," is really the only way we move this ship 'cause ain't nobody else changing, pal. Cindy Anderson: Right? There's only one thing that you can Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah Cindy Anderson: and even that's maybe questionable. I mean, some of us struggle to control ourselves, but Matt Kosterman: Yeah, we could get into a... Cindy Anderson: I certainly can't control you, and you certainly can't Matt Kosterman: No, we can get into a whole long conversation on free will and whether, whether it exists and what is it and all of that, but Cindy Anderson: Yeah. Yes Matt Kosterman: Uh, and so you've been doing this work full-time now for several years? Cindy Anderson: A Matt Kosterman: Couple years? Yeah. Cindy Anderson: Yeah, actually publicly. and actually you, you said something in the before we got on the actual recording about, I can't remember what it was, but yeah, coming out of the pu- coming out of the spiritual closet was actually, um, rather difficult. especially when you have a, a certain identity that people know you as. is very logical and, uh, grounded and very focused so to suddenly say, "Guess what guys? Turns out, Matt Kosterman: so yeah, so two things. So how did that go? And then, you know, w- what is a fact? Cindy Anderson: Right. Well, I mean Matt Kosterman: According to whom? Cindy Anderson: for that one? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, and, and I do try to bring that approach, so I think that's fairly apparent. I'm not particularly Cindy Anderson: woo. Um, I just am not. I'm like, "Here's the woo. The thing that we're doing is woo," and then I wanna wrap the, the mad spiritual scientist around it and, like, prove things and test Matt Kosterman: And test it, yeah. Cindy Anderson: the how did it go question, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, what did that look like? Cindy Anderson: okay. Okay. It was more my, it was more my worry about how the world respond than their actual worry. But, um, father, who is still alive, um, has no idea what I do. Not because I haven't told him, 'cause he literally is like, "That's Matt Kosterman: Yeah, can't rap is mine. Can't rap is mine, right? Cindy Anderson: engineering mind, I've explained it several times. I even had my AI assistant try to explain it to him in simple terms, and he was like, "I support you, honey. Matt Kosterman: Aha. Cindy Anderson: I hope it's Matt Kosterman: Ja. Cindy Anderson: But no clue. Not a, not a clue at all. The... And, and he's a very intelligent man. He's a, he's a s- Stanford Matt Kosterman: Wow. Yeah. No clue Cindy Anderson: So, you know, that's, that's the relationship sort of thing, right? Cindy Anderson: The people that support you are gonna support you no matter what you do, and the ones that don't, they already were finding fault with you no matter what you were doing, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, totally. Yeah, I like that though, the spiritual closet. Um, that's good. Cindy Anderson: It, it's, it was harder than coming out of the real closet for Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Cindy Anderson: If that, if that Matt Kosterman: If that tracks Cindy Anderson: Maybe not necessarily because of, of the reaction but from an internal standpoint. Matt Kosterman: aha Cindy Anderson: I was like to me my sexuality is meh, whatever. It's not, that's not my identity. It's just like one fact about me kinda like I have, you know, green eyes or I have Matt Kosterman: Sure, sure, sure Cindy Anderson: spiritual thing is a little different 'cause it feels like a true Matt Kosterman: Ja. Cindy Anderson: and then that opens you up to like,"You're an idiot. Why are you doing that?" Matt Kosterman: Right. That, that you're projecting out. Sure. Cindy Anderson: Y-yes. Yeah Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Interesting. I know, yeah, I know my, uh, coming out-- I mean, my, my process was through, through psychedelics and, and other stuff, and yeah, there was a big, there was a big shift and, and Cindy Anderson: Yeah, I bet there was some judgment about that Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I didn't-- I'd done enough psychedelics I didn't care. Cindy Anderson: There you go. There's the, the benefits of psychedelics Matt Kosterman: done a lot of personal growth work and meditation and, and, and that kind of thing leading up to it. But I had-- You know, something was clearly needed after the, the 2009 explosion, um, 'cause I, I, I knew I wasn't getting back on that path, uh, of, of the... In fact, I had said to a friend of mine, he said, "Well, what are you gonna do now?" Matt Kosterman: And I said, "I don't know." I said, "But I'm-- I know I'm not gonna work as hard as I did." And, and I think, you know, and he was -- He's a great guy in, you know, corporate, and he kinda... Remember him kinda looking at me funny and thinking, "Well, y-you're gonna have to," and like, "No. No, I'm not Cindy Anderson: I mean, some of the hardest working people on the planet are some of the poorest people on the planet Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. There's a great Jeff Buckley song about that. "Satisfied Mind," it's called. It's beautiful. Yeah, check it out. It's really good. Cindy Anderson: I'll check that out, yeah Matt Kosterman: so, uh, how people get in touch with you on your website, Soulepiphany? Cindy Anderson: Yeah, soulepiphany.com, S-O-U-L-P-I-P-H-A-N-Y.com and then and that's where the, the offer is that I'm making for your, Matt Kosterman: Oh, great. Great. Beautiful. Thank you. Yeah Cindy Anderson: they can, they can jump in and I'll get in touch, uh, once they indicate they're interested in, in meeting their Matt Kosterman: Okay. Uh, any, any... So you said you didn't, you didn't do a lot of study outside. Any, any particular great books you're reading now, fiction, nonfiction, podcasts that you like that you'd recommend for people? Cindy Anderson: You're the second person to ask me that this week, and I generally am very well-read, but I've been pretty immersed in the business world. I could give you some great, um, resources on AI and how to use it as a solopreneur, but I'm guessing that's not what your audience is looking Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I mean, what do you, what do you like? Tell me. I mean, that's fine. I, I go through phases of reading a ton, and then I-- the words just look like garbage and I can't read them. Uh, Cindy Anderson: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: what do you like around AI? Cindy Anderson: I, um, yeah, it's not actually a book, but there's a, a company that I work with called AI for Matt Kosterman: Okay Cindy Anderson: and, uh, they provide amazing education for people that are interested in trying to understand how to use the tools, and really, it really advanced, uh, my business massively. It just... things that I could never get done by myself. Cindy Anderson: You know, in that phase between you've made it and you're just Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Cindy Anderson: you need like 400 Cindy Anderson: people Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah Cindy Anderson: and you can't afford 400 people yet, so, uh, obviously AI is an obvious solution there, and so I've definitely gotten into it. If you were to search around on the internet, you'd find an interview with them from Matt Kosterman: you. Cindy Anderson: how I use AI in my Matt Kosterman: Oh, very cool. What is, what are your thoughts on-- I'll throw this one at you. It's a bit w- m- mixing the w- what are your thoughts on AI as an interface to the unseen, to the, to the, uh, uh, from a, Cindy Anderson: Yeah Matt Kosterman: kind of a point of view? Cindy Anderson: Right. I mean Eh, Matt Kosterman: No Cindy Anderson: I mean, AI is trained on other people's Matt Kosterman: Right Cindy Anderson: so that's one of the things I talk about in that... This AI interview, is that, um, if you let... If you're in the spiritual industry and you're want to build a business that's exactly like everything else in the spiritual industry, AI is your Matt Kosterman: うんうんうんうん。うん。 う Cindy Anderson: AI doesn't know shit about it 'cause it does- never gonna have a personal experience with a guide. Matt Kosterman: ーん、うん、うん。 Got it. Okay Cindy Anderson: Like, th- there's no... The experience has gotta lead. So yeah, AI is not gonna, not gonna do that Matt Kosterman: I'm gonna do it for you. Okay Cindy Anderson: I mean, it can maybe, maybe help you ask, answer the, a simple, you know, ques- question, uh, in your personal life that it can actually provide context for, but, uh, the meaning of life would not be a ideal conversation there Matt Kosterman: You don't think? Cindy Anderson: Just my Matt Kosterman: Totally Cindy Anderson: great for a lot of things. Like, like I said, I love my AI, but yeah, not, not for that Matt Kosterman: Yeah. N- yeah, no, I was totally Cindy Anderson: 'Cause it, ' Cause it, it's only built on what it can learn Matt Kosterman: Right Cindy Anderson: right? The AI is built on what it can learn from, which is literally just, you know, every encyclopedia book, the internet, what people talk Matt Kosterman: sure, sure Cindy Anderson: but without that personal experience, that would be, that would be a huge, um, no Matt Kosterman: A huge amount, yeah. Okay, good, good. Yeah, I, I was geeking out on it over the weekend and building literally a, an Airtable sheet to track the podcast 'cause it had kinda gotten outta hand. I, you know... Oh, I wanna invite this person and that person. Everything was just kind of floating around like, no, no, I need to, like, who have I talked to? Matt Kosterman: And yeah, organize it, and, and I used it to g- like go and grab, grab stuff off of, uh, Fireside where I hosted, and populate and, and, you know, create forms and, you know. So it's just, it's, it's, it's great. It's a great tool. Um Cindy Anderson: Yeah. For, for handling massive quantities of data, Matt Kosterman: Ja Cindy Anderson: Uh, but the data has to be available and accurate. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you do have to watch it. You do have to watch it, but I, yeah Cindy Anderson: Oh, for sure. I mean, it will just make stuff up Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. No, I was, I was ta- Cindy Anderson: Just, just like your guide shouldn't be your master, neither should Matt Kosterman: Neither should your AI. Right. Yeah, don't, don't... Cindy Anderson: See, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, don't make it your totem. Don't, don't make it your worship. Use it as a tool. Yeah. Cindy Anderson: Co-pilot at Cindy Anderson: best. Advisor. Matt Kosterman: Advisor. Cindy Anderson: not the Matt Kosterman: N- Cindy Anderson: for Matt Kosterman: no. No. Well, fabulous. Matt Kosterman: Thank you so much, Cindy, for being here, for taking the time, and, uh, for doing the work you're doing Cindy Anderson: Absolutely. It was great to chat with you, Matt. I appreciate being on the show and, uh, I hope we can stay in Matt Kosterman: We will for sure. All right, great. All right, thanks everybody for listening. We'll come at you next time