S2 • E12 Robinson === Matt Kosterman: Hi, this is Matt, and I'm back with another episode of The Permission Slip. Today, I am with Jeremy Robinson, who's coming to us from, beautiful Northern California. Jeremy is a medicine sitter, has been doing this work for quite some time, and, has a fascinating origin story as well as, incredible gifts, um, working with people, in non-ordinary states of consciousness using, plant medicines and psychedelic medicines. So welcome, Jeremy. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. Thank you, Matt Matt Kosterman: Thanks for being here. Um, we actually got connected through a woman, Marion. I'll probably butcher her last name 'cause it's Norwegian. Sil-Silje Jeremy Robinson: See ya. Matt Kosterman: Holm, I think is what it says. But she, she wrote a lovely paper, on, the power of MDMA to [00:02:00] heal complex post-traumatic stress disorder and, I believe, sat with you not too long ago, right? Jeremy Robinson: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: also interviewed you for the paper as well, and she suggested that we get together, so here we are. So thanks for being here. Um, Jeremy Robinson: Thank you Matt Kosterman: yeah. So, so Jeremy, how, how... Tell us about this. How do you-- how does one... I mean, I know my path, I did some of this work, sat with people, um, wanted to, like we just talked about, wanted to call myself a guide, but I was probably just sort of an advanced sitter, um, at, at best. so w-tell us where... You were, you were born California, raised Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. Born in California, Matt Kosterman: Young parent, young parents Jeremy Robinson: Third, third generation Californian, Matt Kosterman: All right Jeremy Robinson: Um, yeah, great parents. Um, they had me young, Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: which I think led to a lot of the [00:03:00] initial, childhood issues that I got growing up Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: in regards to just being left alone. You know, I'm, I'm Gen X, so latchkey generation, just kind of parents, both working, kids being left alone. It was the last generation where we just kind of had freedom, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jeremy Robinson: our parents just kind of turned us loose during the day, and in the summer, you know, expected us home when the lights came on Matt Kosterman: Totally. Jeremy Robinson: came back. Matt Kosterman: How did they, how did they all know that? Like, there were no cell phones. How did all the parents know that you let the kids go out until... I mean, we were lit- we, I was, like, 10 years old and I'd be driving, riding my bike 25 miles outside of Madison just, you know, whatever, wherever. It was great Jeremy Robinson: I, you know, what's funny is now that I'm later in age, I'll, I'll be sitting with my [00:04:00] parents during a barbecue with my siblings or cousins, which I grew up very close with, and we'll all start telling stories. And we'll start telling stories about things that we did when we were out, you know, outside of our parents' view. Matt Kosterman: Right Jeremy Robinson: And you look at their faces, and their eyes are just, like, wide, and their jaws drop, Matt Kosterman: Totally Jeremy Robinson: guys were doing that?" Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jeremy Robinson: "Of course we were." It's Matt Kosterman: Why would you Jeremy Robinson: were... Matt Kosterman: tell your kids? Jeremy Robinson: No one was watching Matt Kosterman: Right. Jeremy Robinson: having a great time. Like, we were out there Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. But boy, you better be home by the, when the streetlights went on, boy, or you were in trouble Jeremy Robinson: Get back by dinner. Um, no, so I'm, I'm so grateful to actually have grown up in that era where we had that type of freedom before the internet, before all of that came in. [00:05:00] while it, you know, one of the things that is kind of online right now about Gen X is that, you know, we were bullied, and we just dealt with it, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: right? Matt Kosterman: Right Jeremy Robinson: you know, you never went to your parents. You never dealt with any of that in that way. You always just took care of it on your own Matt Kosterman: On your own. Yeah, you either got in a fight or you just put up with it or Jeremy Robinson: Right. Exactly. And my issue was that I put up with it, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: so I never fought back. And I remember my father telling me at one point, he said, "You know, I'm okay if you fight, but they have to throw the first punch Matt Kosterman: 嗯，嗯哼。 Jeremy Robinson: And I would sit in these bullying situations and just wait for that punch to be thrown, but it was never thrown Matt Kosterman: Yeah, it was a ver- verbal punch. It was never a physical punch. Yeah. Jeremy Robinson: Right? Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: [00:06:00] And so I would, I would sit there and just absorb it Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: over and over and over again. And so became very introverted. Um, I read a lot. I never to be a tattletale, so I never told my parents about what was going on with me at school or my friends. Um, again, like generationally, you just dealt with Matt Kosterman: You're done with it, yeah Jeremy Robinson: a thing that you did Matt Kosterman: And you al- and you also had a, you were, you said fun- fairly, fundamentalist Christian Jeremy Robinson: Yeah, raised, Matt Kosterman: raised Jeremy Robinson: very fundamentalist Christian upbringing. Um, it wasn't my choice. It was something that was just told, and I remember my, my mom telling me, like, "This is who we are. This is what we, what we believe, and it." Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: Like, we go to church every [00:07:00] Sunday, and, you know, even as a child, reading the Bible and studying, I always had questions. I always was... You know, I have a very analytical mind that looks for inconsistencies and differences, and when you read the Bible, they're all over the Matt Kosterman: There's a few of those, yeah. But, yeah, but you're not allowed to point them out Jeremy Robinson: right, and so I, I, I was always pointing them out, and I was always trying to, like, understand, like, why is this here? Why is this said this certain way? And every time I brought that forward to pastors or youth leaders or my parents, was told that, um, I was wrong to ask, that I either didn't have enough faith I wasn't praying enough [00:08:00] you know, any myriad of excuses as to why I shouldn't ask that question Matt Kosterman: We'll lay, yeah, let's, let's lay a, let's lay a bunch of shame on you Jeremy Robinson: Right. exactly. And, and so I, I grew up that way. And then when I was 18, I, Matt Kosterman: And did you, did, sorry, did, did, did you experiment with drugs at all in, in, I mean, we were Gen X, so it was sorta... Did you Jeremy Robinson: No. Matt Kosterman: In California, no weed, no nothing? Jeremy Robinson: no. So, so my dad a very, um, hardcore disciplinarian. Um, "If you ever do drugs, I'm gonna kick you out of the house." Like very, you know, say no to drugs Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: I never had any need or want to try any drugs, although my friends did And, and then at 18, I ran away from home [00:09:00] And I lived homeless in Los Angeles for a year and a half. Matt Kosterman: So not even couch surfing, literally homeless. Jeremy Robinson: yeah, Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: like on benches. Um, back in the '90s, you could actually go to car lots and they would have left the cars open Matt Kosterman: Oh, no kidding. Jeremy Robinson: so you could sleep in cars. That was like my go-to place to sleep, actually. Matt Kosterman: Wow Jeremy Robinson: Um, well lit, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, safe. Yeah. Jeremy Robinson: Safe. Matt Kosterman: Did you find, did you find the custom van dealership? Jeremy Robinson: Oh, gosh, yeah. You, you know, you always look for the, the custom model Matt Kosterman: Right. Jeremy Robinson: can sleep in the back of it. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: Um, and then, yeah, when the sun came up, he would leave, and I would walk. I would walk the s- the streets and the parks and the ocean and not have anything to do, ultimately I was [00:10:00] doing what I felt like I needed to do, which was separate myself from my parents. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: It was my own self-initiation from being a child And ultimately, I came back and we reconciled in a very small bit. And then I got married to my wife, and we've been married for 20 years now. And we have a child. She's 16. She's amazing. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: And I married her, I began a job that was very, very high stress, very long hours, Matt Kosterman: Corporate. Jeremy Robinson: technical. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: Um, corporate kind of like NASA Michigan, mission control Matt Kosterman: Okay. Jeremy Robinson: almost. Um- Matt Kosterman: And did you get, did you get a college degree or you just have this, you're just self-taught? Jeremy Robinson: I have, I have no college, so I went, I [00:11:00] went through an apprenticeship Matt Kosterman: Nice. Beautiful Jeremy Robinson: So this was my apprenticeship as an operator, and I loved it. I loved the stress. I loved the multitasking. I loved the authority that I had with Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Jeremy Robinson: I loved the hours. And then When my daughter was 10, I remember coming home on one of my very few days off, and she was in her room with a friend, and I could hear them talking, and she said, "You know what? Let me ask Jeremy." And I poked my head in and I said, "Jeremy who?" And she said, "Well, you." And I said, "I'm Dad." And she goes, "Well, that's what I meant." Matt Kosterman: Uh Jeremy Robinson: And I [00:12:00] remember walking to my wife and saying, "I'm not home enough, I?" And she said, "You haven't been home in six years. You've missed your daughter growing up And so I, in that moment, chose to change my career. And so I took a managerial job in the same department that I was working in. So it was working with the same people, the same industry that I had been tied in with for so long, something I knew, I understood. And then we went, before my new job started, we went on vacation to New Zealand for six weeks Matt Kosterman: Oh, wow. Amazing Jeremy Robinson: And during that six weeks, COVID started And by the time we got home, everything shut down. And so my new [00:13:00] job all of a sudden was work from home And so I'm sitting in my tiny house with my laptop in front of me waiting for work, and it felt like I had been going 100 miles an hour for 15 years, and then suddenly I hit a wall and I went down and I was-- I wasn't going anywhere anymore Matt Kosterman: Yeah So yeah, care, like, do you tell your daughter, "Be careful what you wish for?" Yeah. Jeremy Robinson: oh, Matt Kosterman: All of a sudden, Jeremy Robinson: about it Matt Kosterman: yeah, there had to be some adjusting. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. But there was, um, a period of a- of about six months that I really, really struggled. I self-medicated with alcohol a lot. didn't know what was happening with me. Um, I would go on very long [00:14:00] walks, and I began thinking about suicide And ultimately, I remember sitting down at this pond near my house and going This is what people who are depressed feel like Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: Because I know that I have a loving family, I have friends I can reach out to, yet that seems like the furthest option from my mind right now Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: It's a non-option, and yet suicide feels like the only option I have to make this go away And that was the moment that scared me Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm.[00:15:00] Jeremy Robinson: And so I actually called my doctor and I said, "Something's wrong with me, and I don't know what's going on, but I need some help." And she got me in. did all the tests, making sure, you know, no vitamin deficiencies, no anything like that. Of course, of course, all the tests came back normal And I'm so thankful for her now because this is a doctor's office that I had been in for a long time, and I've always felt like cattle, like in, out, right? As fast as possible. And yet, during that appointment, she sat with me for an hour Matt Kosterman: Oh, wow. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: Can she talk to me? [00:16:00] And at the end of the appointment, after we w-went over all the test results, she said, "I'd like you... You know, I'd like to put you on SSRIs and all this other medication." And I remember telling her, I had actually just read Michael Pollan's book Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Perfect. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: And I said, "You know, you. I'll hold onto these, but right now I feel like whatever is going on in me is deeper than what these medications can touch And so I need to go deeper into my work. And she was so supportive Matt Kosterman: Amazing and unusual Jeremy Robinson: Right. I was so surprised to have that conversation with her Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jeremy Robinson: And [00:17:00] of Matt Kosterman: I, I mean, you do live in, you do live in Calif- you do live in California, so you had a little bit of a, a little bit of a head start. Jeremy Robinson: I did. I did. But, but ultimately that began my, my, my, my journey to find a guide. And this was back when it wasn't really a big thing Matt Kosterman: Yeah, not like it is today Jeremy Robinson: No. And so I, I didn't know where to look. I didn't know what to search for on Google. I, I ultimately found a woman in Mill Valley Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: Area, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: and her website kind of had some keywords in it that I was like, "Oh, okay." Like, I think I... Matt Kosterman: Yeah, based on Michael's, yeah. Jeremy Robinson: the, I'm seeing the picture Matt Kosterman: Yeah, right Jeremy Robinson: And she had a, [00:18:00] um, like a 10-question, survey, and she said, "Hey, ask yourself all these 10 questions." And so I responded with an email, and I responded to all 10 questions, and she got back to me immediately and she said, "Hey, certainly a candidate for my work, but I'm b- but I'm booked, so I c- I, I can't see you." She goes, "However, I have a friend who I trained with who, who I think is in your area, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: so I'm gonna forward your information to her And the area happened to be my hometown Matt Kosterman: Perfect Jeremy Robinson: And so I was able to be in contact with beautiful woman who saw me and began my journey with medicine[00:19:00] Matt Kosterman: And what, what did you start with? What was the first Jeremy Robinson: We started with talk therapy for about six weeks, and then we moved to ketamine, Matt Kosterman: Oh, Jeremy Robinson: Ketamine, Matt Kosterman: yeah. Low dose, yeah Jeremy Robinson: which I was so thankful for because it, it's what I use in my own work now. But what I didn't expect was that it allowed me to... I tell people it's like taking three martinis It's like you kick 'em back and you're like, "Oh, I can share whatever. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Life's good. Yeah, right. Jeremy Robinson: I'm an open book." Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: And so I rem- I remember sharing things with her during these sessions, and I remember like almost watching myself and going, "You've never told anyone this before." Matt Kosterman: Interesting. It was all bottled up. [00:20:00] Yeah. Not even, not even your wife? Jeremy Robinson: no. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: But, but in the moment, it just felt like there was no shame, there was no guilt, there was no repercussion coming from it. It was just this openness of, like, this channel that we had, that we shared. Matt Kosterman: Wait, was it, was it IM? Were you doing intra-mo- or IV? Jeremy Robinson: No, Matt Kosterman: Lozenge. Lozenges. Okay. Troches, yeah Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and again, I'm so thankful for my guide because these things that I was sharing with her, I would've expected her to recoil from Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: And she just sat there and wrote And I remember one of the sessions ended, and I was, I was walking back to my car. I said [00:21:00] I'm curious, did anything I say today bother you? Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: And she said, "No, because you were telling the truth And it's not my to judge people. And so I'll see you next week Matt Kosterman: And you're, and you're going like, "What?" Jeremy Robinson: Right. You know, after having a father like I did, like, I had never experienced that grace before Matt Kosterman: It's beautiful. It's beautiful Jeremy Robinson: And so then we moved to EMDR. We did two sessions with that, and that was where I finally was able [00:22:00] to Looking back now, I can see how twisted my, my connection with my father was Because I'm, I'm very visual in my medicine. So w- even with MDMA, it's always very linear visual storytelling. Matt Kosterman: Fascinating Jeremy Robinson: I see a lot of, indigenous symbology. It's, it's, it's just always been that way Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: And every time I would see a small child crying in the journey, I would say, "Oh, that's my dad. Matt Kosterman: Um, mm-hmm. Mm. Jeremy Robinson: I have to take care of him." And it wasn't until years later that I was like, "Oh, no, that was you." Matt Kosterman: Acting[00:23:00] Jeremy Robinson: But my guide never told me that. She never corrected me Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Waited for you to get there. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: I'm j- I'm so thankful that she did that because I remember sitting with her time and time again and being like, "You should know this. I'm asking you questions that should be easy for you. What does this mean?" Matt Kosterman: Okay. But she wouldn't give you-- she wouldn't assign the meaning? Jeremy Robinson: never, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, that's great. Yeah. That's a great, I mean, that's a great point for, for, you know, listeners out there if you do find yourself vetting potential guide sitters is, you know, to, first of all, I love that there was the six weeks of, of prep, um, 'cause I, I, when I was, when I was guiding people, I would, I would allow them to dictate, "Oh, I really need to get in, and let's do something," you know, without establishing that therapeutic [00:24:00] alliance and, and, and giving, giving the therapist the benefit of getting to know you sober and, and to know your story sober. Um, and then the other, you know, great point is that they didn't, they didn't give you the meaning. They waited for you to make the meaning out of it 'cause we are meaning-making machines. It's what we do. Jeremy Robinson: We are. Matt Kosterman: But there, it's a lot more powerful when you come to it than when somebody tells you what it is, as evidenced by your, by your religious upbringing. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. I mean, I, I can still remember the moments months later or years later when I finally came to that conclusion. was like, that's what that meant." Matt Kosterman: Right, and it's like, whoa, the light. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah Jeremy Robinson: It's like this, this beautiful connection between your experience, what you know, and [00:25:00] no one brought you there Matt Kosterman: You brought you there. Jeremy Robinson: I did. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, you, you brought, you brought you there. Yeah, you brought you there. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: And so I r- I remember calling her years ago and being like, "Thank you so much for not telling me what things meant Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: it means so much more to figure it out for yourself Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting how our stories are, they parallel one another. Yours, your, your stuff is v- very visual, and mine is c- completely somatic 'cause I had so much locked up in my body and my pelvis. And, and when I, when I did MDMA for the first time, I had frozen shoulder. Um, and, and I... The, the, the things that I saw was around similarly to my father worked a lot, as yours did, and wasn't around. You know, he was doing, he was doing what he was programmed to do b- by his upbringing. And I was like, "Oh." You know, and I was projecting it onto a friend. "Oh, my, my buddy, he didn't have a dad. [00:26:00] He died," or whatever. And then I was like, "Oh. Well, I didn't have a dad." Holy shit. And then it wasn't... It, and, and I, I walked into the session unable to move my arm outside of about 10 degrees without excruciating pain, and had tried PT, had tried a shot, a cortisone shot, and nothing, you know, touched it. And when the session was done, I could move it without any pain. And then three months later, I sat with ayahuasca for the first time, came back, was, was leaving an integration session, with the same therapist from the MDMA, and had to pull my car over on the side of the road 'cause I called her and I said, "I, I think this is... Is it possible," 'cause it was very early in my journey. "Is it possible that this is from getting from-- I think this is from getting spanked as a child." And I just fuck-- I just, I just lost it. You know? I just completely lost it and, and then it just got looser and looser, and ever since it's been looser. So it's, I just find that it's a fascinating, you [00:27:00] know, parallel the way this stuff gets stored in, in, in our bodies and then the way it comes out. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. How did you come to the, spanking in your body? Matt Kosterman: Just arose. I'm just was dr- I just was... We, we had had a session, and she was talking about how this, this area under your arms is very tender, very tender area, especially as a child, and I think that's what trip- tricked it, tripped it, um, because it just landed. Like, I... It was one of those things, I, you... I don't know if you've had this where you're, you're, you're kinda walking and you know something's coming. There's, like, something's coming. There, there's a big something, and, and it just kept coming. I, I, I should've just stayed in the parking garage, but instead, like, I, I started, I started driving, and I'm in traffic. It's, like, 5:00, and I, I called her. I said, "I think, I think, I think this is the one." I just had to pull the car over and she's like, "Yeah." She said, "Yeah, that's entirely, entirely possible." So it just spontaneously arose as a result of [00:28:00] IOI did six nights of ayahuasca and, and, and a day of mes- mescaline, and so she beat the shit out of me, and I kinda go big or go home, and, you know, Jeremy Robinson: of medicine. Matt Kosterman: it was 12 days. You know, it wasn't like, you know, but it was, it was a lot of medicine. So it just, it just was the ti- you know, the time. So anyway, I don't wanna detract too much, but I just, I wanna kinda draw this parallel for people to, to say, like, it, it's, it... If you go through this kind of work, it's not gonna necessarily be what Matt or Jeremy said, but it's probably gonna rhyme it somehow. Like, it's, you know, the, these things, you do enough of this and you see the, you know, similar... The, e- everybody's body has a different way of holding onto it and, and expressing it. Jeremy Robinson: sure. Matt Kosterman: So, so anyway, so you, so you have this beautiful experience of realizing that this small child was, was what? Jeremy Robinson: Was The image I have in my head is [00:29:00] it's dark and there's a small child crying on the floor, kneeling down, and there's a lot of people in the shadows around him not helping Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: And during the journey, I'm watching it and I'm thinking, "Oh, that's my dad. I need to help." But I couldn't. I couldn't get through the wall of people And again, ultimately later I realized that was me. I was the one that was crying and people were watching and not helping Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: And I remember this journey happened in December, and I remember after the journey, you know, I'm out of it, and I'm tea by this [00:30:00] window, this big plate glass window that overlooked this orchard And I remember looking at this oak tree And my guide came to me and she asked how I was doing, and I said, "You know, I feel like one of your fruit trees. I feel like You know, a, a fruit tree that you don't prune constantly has hundreds of sucker branches that come up, and they take all the energy out of the tree, and they don't produce any fruit, and they just are a menace. But in order to actually produce fruit in a tree, you have to cut the tree back hard Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: so it can focus energy on the good fruit. And I said, "I feel like I've been pruned back You know, I had hundreds or thousands of different things [00:31:00] all up in the air at once that I was trying to manage, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: gone. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: I'm back to the root. back to the base And I just remember sitting there with my tea going, "Oh, this is the beginning of something. This is gonna be something different." Matt Kosterman: For your life. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah, for sure. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: And You know, something that, that I did from the beginning that I wish I wouldn't have done was that I would come home and tell my wife my journeys Even the hard ones. I remember coming home a couple times and saying, "I will never do that in my life." Matt Kosterman: The thing that... Not the journey or the... Jeremy Robinson: The journey.[00:32:00] Matt Kosterman: Okay Jeremy Robinson: Like, and yeah, and we're talking psilocybin now. Matt Kosterman: Okay, so you moved on to, yeah, mushrooms, yeah Jeremy Robinson: I, I, I did two MDMA and then we moved on to psilocybin. And They were hard because I'm a control person. Matt Kosterman: Hmm. Jeremy Robinson: I need to control my environment. I need to understand a thousand different paths that are available to me so I can find the safest one. That's how I grew up, is you walk on eggshells, and you anticipate everything that can happen all the time Matt Kosterman: All the time. Hypervigilant. Jeremy Robinson: Absolutely. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: And so when you go into a journey with the mushroom, you can't, you, Matt Kosterman: Doesn't work that way. Jeremy Robinson: you can't do that Matt Kosterman: No, no. It's gon- Jeremy Robinson: I re- [00:33:00] remember coming home from that first journey and just being wrecked. And I don't remember much about the journey, but I remember at the hardest point I was losing it. I was losing everything I had. And I remember reaching out and thinking about, "Oh, I, I have a wife." And the moment I thought about it, the mushroom stripped it. "Oh, I have a, I have a daughter." Matt Kosterman: Hmm. Jeremy Robinson: Stripped. a job." Stripped. "My, my animals." Stripped until there was nothing left. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: And it's like the medicine stripped all the things that I had created an identity around, and it said, "Who are you [00:34:00] without these?" And it left me in the dark with that For a long time. But, but it gave me a candle. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: There was a candle with me in the dark And I just remember this crushing pressure all around me that was trying to put the candle out Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: But it stayed lit It never faltered. With all of these waves and wind and pressure that was coming up against it, it was stable And I remember thinking, "Oh, that's me. That's who I am." Matt Kosterman: [00:35:00] Stable. Unwavering. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And what, and... Jeremy Robinson: out of... Oh, go ahead Matt Kosterman: Oh, sorry, I was gonna, and, and, and you had s- you said you had, 'cause I think this is a, an important point and I, I, I agree with you on, on this as well, and I, I s- I s- I still do, I still do this, but you said, "I wish I hadn't shared so much right, right after the journey." Um, Jeremy Robinson: Okay. Matt Kosterman: yeah, and I s- I still do that. It's exciting and it's fun and I wanna share and all the weird, you know, the weird shit. But what, what was your, what, w- why, why do you wish you hadn't shared? What do you think would be different? Jeremy Robinson: 'Cause I think my, my first couple journeys like this one that I'm explaining were really hard. And I remember coming home and she would ask me how it went, and I would say, "It was horrible." It was the hardest thing I've ever done in my entire life, and I'm not gonna do it again And [00:36:00] then I would wake up the next morning and I'd go, "I can do that again." 'cause I could, I could understand what I learned from it. It was like, "Oh, could have done this differently. I could have surrendered more. I could have..." You know, all these different things that come up. But ultimately, after a year of, of that, when I finally came to my wife and said, "Hey, would you like to do medicine with me?" She was like, "Absolutely not." Matt Kosterman: Right. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: And I realized like, oh I've, I've tainted her perspective of this by sharing Matt Kosterman: she's on- she's just heard the negative. Jeremy Robinson: Right. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: Right. And, [00:37:00] and now I've learned to really protect my journeys. And so whether it's with ayahuasca or wachuma or mushrooms, when I come home, she will always ask. But more often than not, I will always tell her, "You know what? This is for me. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: I'm holding onto this. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Jeremy Robinson: I'm fine. I'm okay." Matt Kosterman: I'm okay. Yeah, it was good. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I survived Jeremy Robinson: Yeah, and, and if there was an extraordinary experience, I, I love to share that with her, and I will. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: But there's a lot of interpersonal deep work that happens, and I've learned over the years is that sometimes you have to let that settle and, and let the seeds take root and really grow before you can share And so I've been very, um, careful and [00:38:00] discretionary about what I share after those types of dreams Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Interesting. Well, do you know, do you know what your human design type is? Have you studied human design at all? Jeremy Robinson: I haven't. I Matt Kosterman: like it. Jeremy Robinson: kn- I Matt Kosterman: It Jeremy Robinson: I'm an Enneagram 4. Matt Kosterman: I was gonna guess that you were a four when we were talking . Based on some of the things you said that you were a four, the whole, like, going off and being homeless, that sounds like something a four would do. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: No, yeah, hu- check out human design. I, so I'm a projector in human design, which is a teacher. We're here to bring new information into the world, and which is, which is part of this. So that's why, so I have a hard time not, not blathering on about what, you know, what went on in my, whatever you'd name it, journey, tantric, medicine, whatever it was. Like, "Oh, and then this happened, then this, then this being, then this being jumped into me and he was dancing," and you know, kinda like you, [00:39:00] people are like, "Y- you want me to do this shit? Are you kidding?" But no, I mean, I think it's a blast. I think it's a hoot. I think it's a f- it's a blast Jeremy Robinson: it's one of the, it's one of the reasons why, um, I actually partner my clients up with each other Matt Kosterman: Hmm. Nice Jeremy Robinson: So, um, you know, still respecting confidentiality and all the agreements that we have, I always take a client that's further on in the process, and I pair them up or buddy them up Matt Kosterman: Okay Jeremy Robinson: newer person who comes in because a lot of these people who are coming into the work don't have anyone to talk to Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jeremy Robinson: about their j- experiences or their journeys. And so I give them someone who's in the same process with them, and I'm like: "You guys connect. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. That's beautiful. Jeremy Robinson: talk, Matt Kosterman: So yeah. Jeremy Robinson: what's going on." Matt Kosterman: Yeah, so let's just so back up. So what was the... When, when did you know that you wanted to start to, to do this for people? What wa- what was the catalyst?[00:40:00] Jeremy Robinson: I would say that I'm still a reluctant guide. Um Matt Kosterman: but you are sitting, guiding, whatever you wanna call it. I mean, you are, you are doing it. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: I, I've been doing it for four years now, five Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jeremy Robinson: now. Matt Kosterman: Nice Jeremy Robinson: Um You know, I remember being invited be part of an apprenticeship that I completed and being the only one in the group who wasn't a therapist, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: wasn't a PhD, wasn't a doctor, and asking the leader who asked me, "Why me? Like, why am I included in this? Because I'm not... I'm still working my own shit out. Like, why am I here?" And she said, [00:41:00] "You're an Enneagram four." And she goes, "Some people are just built for this work. Some people feel other people deeply enough to understand what they need and how to heal them and how to work with them, and I see that in you. And so I wanna foster that with you." Matt Kosterman: I'm sorry Jeremy Robinson: And so I went through that apprenticeship and, um Never advertised. I do- I, like I, I still don't. I, I ask the medicine to bring people to me, and they do. Um, but I also have a corporate job. So I am navigating these two very separate paths of life. This one path of [00:42:00] supporting my family and making money and doing the nine-to-five, and then this other path that allows me to work with international clients and travel do this work that I still I still bump up against this part in myself that doesn't feel worthy to do it And yet there will be times in the middle of session where I'm singing or doing body work on someone or... And it's almost like I'm, I'm, I'm five feet behind myself and I'm watching myself and I'm going, "Who are you? Like, how do you know how to do what you're doing right now?" Matt Kosterman: Probably not. It's not the you that you identify with [00:43:00] being the you that's doing the work. Jeremy Robinson: Right Matt Kosterman: You're the con- You're, you're the body, the body's the conduit for the work to come through Jeremy Robinson: Right. And I think that over the years I've learned that, you know, prior to a session, I always get really nervous because I'm trying to plan. I'm trying to like, Matt Kosterman: the escape routes. Jeremy Robinson: Like, what's gonna happen? Have we already gone through, like, have, you know, have we gone through all the, the basic work and like we're okay? Matt Kosterman: Right. Put your mask on before you, you're giving the mask to the child, all of that. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. then the moment I'm in the medicine, all of that goes away And it's just instinctual It's just this human body working with another human body going through the, the, the work Matt Kosterman: Yeah. The [00:44:00] pruning Jeremy Robinson: And yeah, the pruning. Matt Kosterman: pruning. Jeremy Robinson: And Matt Kosterman: 'Cause that's, yeah Jeremy Robinson: a very beautiful process, and sometimes that can be a very hard process Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jeremy Robinson: be a part of Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, I had a guy who-- I had a guy on MDMA who basically screamed, yelled for four hours and shook. And I was like, "Whoa, I didn't know MDMA could do this." I thought it was gentle. Jeremy Robinson: my last MDMA client did that for seven hours. Matt Kosterman: Seven. Shit Jeremy Robinson: Yeah Seven hours. And I remember sitting there going, "It shouldn't last this long." Like, Matt Kosterman: Right. Jeremy Robinson: "What Matt Kosterman: What, what's going on? Yeah. Was there, was there re- resolution relief after that for them? Jeremy Robinson: Oh, yeah, Matt Kosterman: There wasn't, okay Jeremy Robinson: There was a lot of pain Matt Kosterman: Ja. Oké Jeremy Robinson: that had to be released and [00:45:00] yeah, I mean, yelling into pillows, Matt Kosterman: Right Jeremy Robinson: crying, the whole, the whole shebang. But you know, the one thing, they had headphones on Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: most of it, and so I, I knew they couldn't hear me Matt Kosterman: Okay Jeremy Robinson: Um, because I could hear the music out of the headphones. They had turned them up so loud Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, right Jeremy Robinson: that I could, that I could hear the music. So I'm like, "Okay, I'm not gonna try and talk to them." But I was singing Matt Kosterman: Okay Jeremy Robinson: And I was rattling, and I was working just around them. And the one thing that they said afterwards was... I, I actually asked a question. I said, "Did you ever know sense that I was around you?" And they said, "Yeah, because when the song changed, [00:46:00] I could hear you singing Matt Kosterman: Oh, okay Jeremy Robinson: And it brought me so much relief to know that you were right there taking care of me Matt Kosterman: Oh, nice. Beautiful Jeremy Robinson: Like even in my work, even in all this pain, even in all this movement, hadn't left, that you were still Matt Kosterman: That you were still there, yeah. Jeremy Robinson: doing work Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: And I think that that, for me That was really beautiful for me because I think that a lot of the, the work that I do goes unnoticed, Matt Kosterman: 嗯。 Jeremy Robinson: and I like that You know, I like to be a shadow. I like to be in the background. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: I don't want to take the spotlight from the medicine ever Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: But to have someone say, "Oh, you know what? For just three seconds between songs, [00:47:00] I could hear you Matt Kosterman: I could hear you, I could feel you, I knew you were there. Yeah. Have you had, have you had instances of people, um, I had this happen once, not, not dropping in Where they resist it, want to control it, wouldn't want to go into their bodies Jeremy Robinson: Oh, yeah. had clients. Um, one was very much like me, very controlling, very hard, very masculine, very just like locked in, ready to go. And we did two sessions, and he would just be mad the whole time Matt Kosterman: Angry Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. He's like, "When's it gonna happen? When's it, like, when am I gonna get what I need?" And it didn't matter how much we bre- we breathed together or whatever. He was so focused on, [00:48:00] "I need fixing, so show me what I need to fix, and I'm gonna get there." Matt Kosterman: And, and ultimately, if you look at the meta picture of the whole thing, it was showing him what he needed to fix. Jeremy Robinson: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Matt Kosterman: Which is the beauty of the way it works Jeremy Robinson: yeah, but ultimately with him, worked for a year with MDMA, psilocybin, LSD, Matt Kosterman: Okay Jeremy Robinson: and it was the same thing every single time Matt Kosterman: And he was just blocking it Jeremy Robinson: Just blocking it. And he's-- he was just so focused on, "Show me what I need to fix, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: and I'll take care of it." And I remember one time on the LSD, he's like, "I see a door in front of me, and I just wanna get through it. How do I get through it?" Matt Kosterman: Hmm. Jeremy Robinson: And I said, "Maybe wait. Step back. [00:49:00] Wait for it to open." And he's like, "I have a handful of keys. I'm trying every key. I can't get in." Matt Kosterman: Hmm. Jeremy Robinson: I was like, "Yeah, maybe wait." he wouldn't Matt Kosterman: One way Jeremy Robinson: And he was getting really frustrated after the year, and I said, "You know, you and I are very alike in how we're built, our histories, our fathers." I said, "The one thing that really cracked me open was ayahuasca, and so I wanna invite you to ayahuasca Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: And first night, ayahuasca, nothing. Medicine wouldn't touch him, just nothing. Matt Kosterman: Wow Jeremy Robinson: And the next morning, he was really frustrated, and he's like, "I'm gonna leave. I feel like I'm wasting people's time. I'm, I'm-- this isn't gonna work." And I said, "Please [00:50:00] talk to... You know, we have integration coming up, which is like a three-hour process. So, like, just share how you feel. Open up. Let people know where you're at. Let the shamans know, 'cause they can help." And he was able to kinda crack open a little bit and really share and be vulnerable and let them know what he needed. And then I was sitting next to him, and then second night rolls around, and about hour through, halfway through the night, someone comes up to him and says, "Hey, hey, are you okay?" goes, "Sober as a judge." And they're like, "Well, we, we want you to come up to the altar Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh Jeremy Robinson: shaman can work on you." And, he tells afterwards was that he got up there and he was feeling so defeated, and he just kept telling himself, like, wasting their time on me. I [00:51:00] f- I'm guilty, like I, I feel guilty for taking all, you know, time away from all these other people who are working and doing the work, I'm just here screwing things up." Matt Kosterman: Wow Jeremy Robinson: And one analogy that he told me throughout the entire year, he's like, "I feel like I just have a sledgehammer always, and I just wanna break things open and fix them and keep things moving." Matt Kosterman: Smash Jeremy Robinson: And he said at one point, he... She worked on him for a long time with Ikaros Matt Kosterman: Which are the, the songs that they sing Jeremy Robinson: Yeah, the songs and prayers that Matt Kosterman: prayers, yeah Jeremy Robinson: And he said eventually he just gave up And you look down at the altar, and there is a [00:52:00] sledgehammer on the left And then there's a feather on the right And the medicine told him, "You don't need the sledgehammer. It's the feather that does the work." And since then He has grown in the most amazing ways I've ever seen a man grow. For his family, his career But it took a year of being worn down. Matt Kosterman: Hitting himself with a sledgehammer Jeremy Robinson: Right. Matt Kosterman: Over and over. Jeremy Robinson: over again Matt Kosterman: And then, yeah, what's the old, you know, saying about, you know, if you're [00:53:00] doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result? It's insanity. Jeremy Robinson: Right. But then the ultimate, you know, the ultimate understanding of It's so much effort to hit yourself with a sledgehammer over and over and over again, and yet it's the easiest thing to lay it down Matt Kosterman: But it's so hard. It can be so hard Jeremy Robinson: Oh, gosh. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I had, I had a-- Jeremy Robinson: it's counterintuitive to us Matt Kosterman: It's counterintuitive, yeah. And it-- 'cause it's familiar. The, the, the pain is familiar, the sledgehammer's familiar. It's a deeply rooted pattern. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah Matt Kosterman: Um, I mean, I had a, I had a woman who didn't... It was MDMA, and she did very little movement while she was listening to the music. I was, you know, moving some energy, and at one point she just, she asked if I [00:54:00] would hold her hand, Jeremy Robinson: 嗯 Matt Kosterman: and I did. And afterward, she said that was the hardest thing she'd ever done in her life Was, was asked that question And, uh And that's, you know, those are the questions that you have to ask, the hard ones, whether you're in medicine or not, but especially in the medicine Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: 'Cause they're... Jeremy Robinson: that, that's the same way. I had to ask Matt Kosterman: You had to ask Jeremy Robinson: my f- my first group ceremony with mushrooms, there was a male facilitator who I didn't know, and halfway through the journey, I was like, "I wanna hold his hand. I need to hold his hand." And immediately like, "Well, why? Why?" Matt Kosterman: Uh-huh. Jeremy Robinson: And so I, I, I, I end up in this thought process of, well, that doesn't make sense. Like, why would you [00:55:00] wanna do that? And, and, um, I never did Matt Kosterman: Never did Jeremy Robinson: Never did. And yet I emailed him after the ceremony, and I told him what I had thought and what I through. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: And of course, he was entirely gracious, and he said: "Of course, I would have held your hand. Like, Matt Kosterman: That's what Jeremy Robinson: that's my j- that's my job. Matt Kosterman: I hear that. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: Like, I would have been honored to hold your hand." Matt Kosterman: Sure. How do you, which bring, which both of those points bring up a, a, you know, question around sitting and, and, and consent, right? So how do you, how do you deal with touch and consent, to touch in your, in your ceremonial space? Jeremy Robinson: Yeah, great question. Um, so what I tell everyone regarding of the medicine is I say, "The only time I will ever touch you is on your shoulder [00:56:00] to check in with you. So you, you can expect no touch from me unless I'm checking in, and I'll just gently tap you on your shoulder." Matt Kosterman: Like get them to open their eyes and acknowledge you. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: So we, so we can talk. I said, "However, I may touch you on the shoulder, and I may talk to you and say, 'Hey, I feel like I may need to work on you your back,' or, 'Maybe you can, turn on your stomach so I can work on the back of your head.' Is that okay with you?" And all this is discussed ahead of the medicine. So I say, know, we go through all the ethics of it. We talk about inappropriate, know, requests. Um, so there's always a long conversation ahead of time about what they can't ask for, what they can ask for, and what's acceptable. But ultimately, in the journey itself, um, [00:57:00] the touch on the shoulder is the only thing that is non-consensual. It's Matt Kosterman: Right. You, you, it's a check-in. If their eyes are closed or blind, u- under an eye shade or whatever, and you wanna check on them 'cause they haven't seemed to do anything for a while. Jeremy Robinson: Correct. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I know it's, it's, uh It can, it, it can get fraught, so it's, it's good to have the, be very clear upfront. And I know it was always a, not always, but later on in the w- the work, it was, um, you can change a yes to a no, but you can't change a no to a yes when, when the medicine comes on Jeremy Robinson: Exactly. And actually, when I was beginning my apprenticeship, CCM had just gone under Matt Kosterman: Okay Jeremy Robinson: Um, so that was still very new in the space. And so I was [00:58:00] actually asked to research the downfall of that and the ethics Matt Kosterman: And what was the, what was that, who were they? CCMI Va- it's a vague, this is like four or five years ago Jeremy Robinson: conscious, Consciousness Center, uh, Matt Kosterman: Marin Jeremy Robinson: Consciousness Center, CCM. I can't think of it Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jeremy Robinson: They were in Berkeley. Matt Kosterman: Okay Jeremy Robinson: Um, it was owned by Francois and Aaron, um, but they were both sleeping with clients, and it became this massive, massive thing. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Which is, yeah Jeremy Robinson: ultimate- ultimately, that led me to study a six-month study of ethics in psychedelia to learn about what's happened in the past, how to prevent it, and really kind of formulated the foundation of my own ethics in my work Matt Kosterman: Do you know, did you come across a guy named Neil in that work?[00:59:00] Jeremy Robinson: Mm-mm. Matt Kosterman: Okay. He's got a center-- He's on the boards that I'm on, and he's got a center for psychedelic e- ethics. I just... Jeremy Robinson: Okay. Matt Kosterman: he's-- I think he's out West, but I don't know. Um, and that, that, you know, that brings up a good point of, I wanted to, you know, touch on, is to talk a, a little bit about the shadow of, of the, of this medicine, right? 'Cause we, we tend, we tend to... If-- I mean, the news media loves to focus on the shadow. Um, but we tend-- often can tend to be like, you know, like, "Oh, s- psychedelics are great, and they change everybody, and, you know, it's, it, you know, it, it's amazing in just one trip, and your whole life is different." But clearly, as the case with your gentleman who took over a year and multiple medicines. But what do you, what do you see as some of the shadows that people, just as a, as, you know, sort of warnings for people, if they wanna do this work, get in, you know, have-- not, not as a facilitator, but they, they're fe- they're feeling called to working with psychedelics in one way or another to solve depression or [01:00:00] anxiety or Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. So what I tell people coming on is expect the first six months to be very, very hard. It'll feel like you're going backwards Because ultimately, whether you're having amazing MDMA sessions or great psilocybin experiences, ultimately you're gonna be digging up a lot of that's been hidden in your body your mind for a very long time. And so there are times where you're gonna feel worse And You know, that's, that's kind of one of the things I want people to understand is that it's called the work for a reason because it is really hard Matt Kosterman: Can be. Can be. Can be. I mean, I don't- it doesn't have to be always, but it, it can be Jeremy Robinson: No, correct. Yeah, [01:01:00] you, you're right. Thank you for clarifying Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: Um But when you start this, it can be a long process Um, I'd say the client I-- You know, the longest client I've worked with was a year and a half. They had severe PTSD, sexual trauma, and by the end of the year and a half, they were, they were okay But that year and half was up and down. You know, it wasn't all daisies and roses along the road Matt Kosterman: Sure. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: And so, you said, I think the media portrays this as a one pill wonder where you do it once and magically you're healed Matt Kosterman: Yeah. That's, yeah. Jeremy Robinson: gets better. Matt Kosterman: Right. That's the med- the medical, it's the medical paradigm, right? They want, it's everybody's after the, they're everybody's after the magic pill Jeremy Robinson: Right? But ultimately, I mean, even if you [01:02:00] look at the indigenous ways that these tribes and these lineages have been using these medicines, it's an ongoing process that they use them, right? The, the, the tribes in the Amazon with ayahuasca, their children drink ayahuasca, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: They're in-- Like, this is a thing that they ingest in their bodies. They ha- they understand the relationship with the medicine, and they work with it, and they, they get a sense for it. But when we enter this space, we're foreigners to it Matt Kosterman: Right. 100%. Jeremy Robinson: And s- and so it takes some time to integrate and build the relationship with the medicine before we can actually start working with it Matt Kosterman: Right. With the medicine and with the provider. And I mean, you know, the therapeutic alliance. I mean, I, I've worked with the same, I've been sat for over a, a year now with the, the toad medicine, with the bufo, but I've sat with the same people more than a [01:03:00] dozen times, and each time it allows me to go deeper 'cause I trust them implicitly. Like I know, n- you know, 'cause wild shit has happened, and, and they've been, and they've been fine with it, you know? And, and I know it doesn't matter what I bring, it doesn't matter what the medicine brings. Uh, Jeremy Robinson: Mm-hmm Matt Kosterman: and so it's a, it's allowed me to deepen. So yeah, it's a, it's a great, it's a great sort of a disclaimer more than a warning, but it, it, it can, it can be... I mean, I've been at this for, since 2018 was my first experience with psilocybin, so going on eight years now Jeremy Robinson: Can I ask you what your bufo practitioners or facilitators do that make you feel safe? Matt Kosterman: Um, well, they're, they're a couple. They've been married a long time, and they've been doing the work for a long time and also serving ayahuasca. Um, and they're just... They are, like I said, [01:04:00] it, it, it doesn't, it doesn't... I've, I've ended up with no clothes on in, you know, the, the end of the session, and that's fine. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah Matt Kosterman: Right? I mean, I, I just remember being like, "Okay, these are coming o- like, I want this off right now." And, you know, and we can, I can, I can talk about anything with them. I, you know, I had the, I had the benefit of, depending on how you look at it, sometimes I look at it as not so much of a benefit, I spent 12-plus years in therapy and on SSRIs. And so people will say, um, "Oh yeah, I did the, you know, this, I had this psilocybin trip," or something. It was like, you know, it was like, "10 years of therapy in an afternoon." And somebody told me, "Yes, if you've done 10 years of therapy." Jeremy Robinson: Yeah, there you go. Matt Kosterman: Right? But if you've never done any therapy, it, it, it, it can, I, I can imagine that it could be rough, like your experience with ketamine, like you said that, you know. I mean, I had a, a lot of [01:05:00] history of, you know, I did the whole Landmark curriculum, so I, you know, I stood up in front of people saying, "I got, you know, six figures worth of tax debt, and I can't for the life of me figure out why." This is after filing for bankruptcy and foreclosure and getting divorced, and I still ended up, you know, five years later with all of this tax debt. And so I had experience in places saying, you know, saying shadowy shit, stuff that I would rather... But, but when you first get into these spaces, 'cause y- like, like you found with the ketamine, you're gonna, y- you don't, you're gonna be like, "Oh, I think I'm gonna talk about this right now." Yeah. I, I, I didn't find ketamine to be so truthy s- 'cause I did some pretty big doses of it for the first time, and it was later in my experience. But MDMA, I would often describe to people as truth serum, 'cause you're just like, oh, you'll just... Okay. Well, there it is. I'm just gonna say this. 'Cause this feels really true right now Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: So the, it was, it's just, it's ha- to answer your question, it was just the multiple experiences and just how they handled [01:06:00] things and what, who I saw them as during the, you know, during the journey, and the way that they moved the energy, and the way that they held the space, and the way that they, over time, did less of that, did less of the moving of the energy and be- because we worked together over the course of about four years. And so they were also maturing in their process and learning, you know, more about that. And then having like a, having a, I won't call it a bad experience, but I had an experience where I went to a, a, a friend's house who had a shaman in town, a fairly prominent person in the bufo world, and, and it was a terrible container. Like, his teenage daughter was home and, and, it just, the, I, I was surprised that the shaman held the space 'cause I did not, I did not go deep. And so I had that, I ha- I had that experience to go, "Okay, well this feels much, much better." Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? It's... [01:07:00] I've met with a handful of clients where during our first talk session, either myself or they will say, "You know what? This, this doesn't feel right." And I always welcome that. I let them know ahead of time, like, "If you feel like this isn't a good match, please let me know. I have a Rolodex of other guides I can put you in contact with. If you want a male or a female, like, I can, I can put you in contact with someone else who you Matt Kosterman: Right. Yep Jeremy Robinson: Um, because I don't wanna force this relationship at all. And then on the flip side, there's been many times where I've sat down and I, I, I'd look at it, the conversation, and be like, "Whoa, this is outside my Thank you. Dinner. Matt Kosterman: This is outside of you[01:08:00] Jeremy Robinson: this is outside of my range of being comfortable, right? Especially when we're talking about things like early childhood sexual trauma. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Jeremy Robinson: You know, I'm not a therapist. Matt Kosterman: Right Jeremy Robinson: That's, that's not something I can walk you through, even with the medicine, because other things are gonna come up with that, and you need someone who specializes in that. Matt Kosterman: Yep. Jeremy Robinson: have those people for you, Matt Kosterman: Yep Jeremy Robinson: I'll, I'll put you in contact with them. Um- Matt Kosterman: What, what would you say to somebody... So I, I, as you were talking about how they were saying, "Oh, this doesn't feel like the right fit," or, "I don't think the medicine's for me." What, how, how would you describe the process of discernment? Where, w- where do you, how do you know that that's not fear talking and saying, "I don't wanna go here. It could be productive. I don't wanna go here," or it's r- it's really truly, "No, I don't think this is for me"? Jeremy Robinson: Right. So [01:09:00] usually the process starts with a phone call. Matt Kosterman: Okay Jeremy Robinson: And so there's been times where I've had the same phone call with the same person for six months. Matt Kosterman: Hmm. Jeremy Robinson: It's like, "Hey, I'm available. Let's meet up. Let's have a coffee. Let's just talk." And they ghost me Matt Kosterman: Okay Jeremy Robinson: And then I'll, you know, I'll reach out six weeks later like, "Hey, are we still okay? You still wanna meet up? What's going on? Are you okay?" Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: Ghost. I'm like, "Okay, well, the medicine isn't calling them Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: But when they show up in front of me, I'm like, "Okay, this is serious." Like, they're, they're taking this hard step toward healing Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: And so when they, when they're actually able to do that, when they're actually able to face me at a coffee shop or a park, I know that they're taking this seriously Matt Kosterman: Got it Jeremy Robinson: want to begin this [01:10:00] process Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And how, and then what does it look like? How are you... How, how often are you getting together in, in prep, in, in preparation typically? Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. So once we kind of build a rapport together, we go back, you know, we kind of meet for coffee a couple times just to make sure that we're a good fit. Um, after that, we'll meet once a week for an hour just, just to talk, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: and I start building, a map background trauma. Of course, at this point, I've already done the intake for them. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: I have a very, very long intake form that they have to fill out before I work with them. Um, and yeah, it's really just about building the rapport further, allowing them to really unpack and unload, 'cause a lot of people have been carrying so much for so long Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: that when they finally have the opportunity to just kind of like let everything out, I just let them regurgitate [01:11:00] everything that they have onto me. And then eventually it, it comes differently for different people, but eventually we get to a point where it kind of feels like we're just talking back and forth at that point, and then that's when I'll Matt Kosterman: Just, it's just sort of more story. The story is just kinda getting, yeah, told over and over Jeremy Robinson: And at that point it's more of like, "Okay, I think we need to start planning your next, you know, the journey Matt Kosterman: The journey, yeah. Jeremy Robinson: for you." Matt Kosterman: And then are they coming to you saying, um, you know, "I wanna do MDMA, I wanna do mushrooms?" Like, are, are you just-- are you figuring that out as you go? Jeremy Robinson: No, I, I, I follow the same protocol for everyone. So it's always ketamine to start. Matt Kosterman: Got it Jeremy Robinson: Um, it might be one, it might be two sessions, but always one Matt Kosterman: Always one, yeah Jeremy Robinson: Um, because that allows me to see ultimately, like, are they really [01:12:00] opening up? Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: all of those talk sessions, did they actually share what they wanted to share? Because the ketamine will allow them to o-open up and Matt Kosterman: But, Jeremy Robinson: share that deep thing. Matt Kosterman: yeah Jeremy Robinson: Um, then we go to MDMA, one or two sessions, depending on how they respond to it, and then we go to psilocybin Matt Kosterman: Got it. Got it. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: 'Cause I think ultimately, ketamine allows me to create a deeper map of their trauma and where they've been and what they need. Matt Kosterman: Okay Jeremy Robinson: MDMA allows me to work in that trauma. It allows them to see it from different perspectives, and then psilocybin ultimately allows them to integrate all of the work together Matt Kosterman: Oh, interesting. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I had done psilocybin on my own for the first time and had an amazing experience, powerful, and [01:13:00] then didn't do any-- So that g- which brings me to my next question. I didn't do any integration work. I wasn't doing any work. I just was like, I was kinda like your guy who I just wanna be fixed. Like, I just wanted to, um, you know. I, my body was moving all over the place. It was crazy. I, I saw the great big light. I dove into it, you know. All that was, it was ama-- I was crying. It was amazing, and then my body was still screwed. Like, I was still in tons of pain. And so I went to this, I got connected with a therapist via somebody out your way who said, "You can come here, or I can connect you there." Found this person, and I was like, "I, I wanna do psilocybin, but I wanna do it the right way," you know? And they said, "Well, o-okay. Well, let's just talk a little bit." And I said, "Yeah. Th- I, I think MDMA is gonna be the, you know, the better fit for you here." And, and, and I, I by, I by... I think 'cause I had 12 or 15 years of therapy, I, I bypassed the whole ketamine route, um, at the time. But, yeah, and then it was, it was indeed exactly the right thing at the time. The MDMA was, was phenomenal. So then what, what do you, [01:14:00] what's, what's the post? What do you do integration-wise? What's your, what, what... You said you, you, you pair them with a, a mentor of, of sorts, a partner, which I think is Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. So, so, so ultimately who work with me, it's an ongoing process. So it's not like a bubble of one and done, one journey, pre and post Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Jeremy Robinson: usually an ongoing process. And so, you know, we do post integration, we continue our weekly sessions to, to further integration to, you know, allow them to ask questions. Um, and this is usually the point where they're like, "You know, I think we can back off from weekly to biweekly." Like, no problem. We can do that. Um, because I think, like you said, they're working with their buddy. Matt Kosterman: Right. Right, right Jeremy Robinson: So they're talking on the back end with these other people who have already either are further on in the process and they're learning from each other, [01:15:00] they're being able to share their experiences, they're talking. Um, but ultimately, everyone has come to a point where they look at me and they say, "I think I'm okay." Matt Kosterman: Hmm. Hmm. Jeremy Robinson: I don't think I have to meet or monthly anymore. Matt Kosterman: I'm good Jeremy Robinson: Like I, I, I still wanna meet for journeys, if that's okay Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: But I think I'm, I think I'm good Matt Kosterman: Yeah, that's great Jeremy Robinson: And, and sometimes people will actually begin using medicine on themselves. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: You know, once they've kind of gotten the, the f- flow for it, they understand the feeling, they understand how to self-regulate. You know, they'll kind of come to me sheepishly and be like, "Um, last weekend I took MDMA on my own." Matt Kosterman: yeah. Yeah, of course.[01:16:00] Jeremy Robinson: "Heck, heck yeah, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Yeah Jeremy Robinson: ultimately, I mean, and, know, ultimately that's my goal, right? I want people to feel comfortable to use medicine for their own work. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I had that, yeah Jeremy Robinson: feel confident in their, in their own ability to, to sit for themselves Matt Kosterman: Right. 'Cause we, you can. I mean, we, I had the same conversation with Katie Simons, who's a PharmD down in Santa Fe or Taos, and, and she does, in addition to consultations of, you know, medicine interactions, um, she serves, she serves medicine, and we had that conversation. Like, you know, y- you, you can get mushrooms and go take them. Like, n- no- nobody in the history of the world has died from doing this. Not from the mushrooms. I mean, make sure you got somebody you can call, or maybe you've got a sitter or something like that, but they're not gonna hurt you Jeremy Robinson: I did the same thing in my, in my early work. I remember coming to my [01:17:00] guide and saying, "I, I took a little bit of mushrooms this weekend Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Jeremy Robinson: And what was funny was I felt like I was this little boy coming to his mom Matt Kosterman: Right. Jeremy Robinson: confessing Matt Kosterman: Right. Jeremy Robinson: doing something wrong, Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: like I had, you know, I had violated some agreement. Matt Kosterman: Some code Jeremy Robinson: Yeah. And she just smiled. Matt Kosterman: Mhm. Jeremy Robinson: goes, "How was it? Matt Kosterman: Aha, Jeremy Robinson: Tell me all about it." Matt Kosterman: ja. Ja Jeremy Robinson: And, you know, she was the one who said, "You know, this is what I want. I want you to be okay with taking this yourself and trusting yourself to do the work. You know, ultimately, you shouldn't need me." Matt Kosterman: No. So you, so you put the people together in pairs. Have you, I'm just curious if you've done any, brought together like a, a group integration at all with, with, with clients? Jeremy Robinson: You know, I've thought about it, but I haven't. Matt Kosterman: I ju- I [01:18:00] ask 'cause that the, the, there was a, there is a group here in Chicago, they meet virtually now, which isn't a huge f- I'm not a huge fan of. I'd rather meet in person. But pre-COVID they were meeting, um, like last Wednesday of every month, and so we would get 20, 25 people sometimes, um, to talk about psychedelic shit. And, and then they spun off and they would do-- One of the people was a licensed-- couple of them were licensed therapists, and they would do a six-person integration group for six weeks. Um, so I, I did, I did that twice and it was, it was super useful 'cause, you know, you get your-- A lot of times you can get things out of your life from hearing somebody else's story. So you just-- It sounds like you're, you're creating like such a great community and things with, with people. I just was curious if you'd done that. Jeremy Robinson: I live in... I live in a community right now that's very Want to be careful about this. Matt Kosterman: No, that's fine. I get it[01:19:00] Jeremy Robinson: We have a very robust underground presence here. And so there are integration circles everywhere. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, yeah Jeremy Robinson: Um, there are circles everywhere. Um, you can't throw a rock and not hit someone who's doing this work. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, that's great Jeremy Robinson: which is fantastic, right? For access and for people to, to be able to seek the work and, So yeah, I, I can imagine that if I was in the middle of Nevada, where that access was very limited, that the need for a, an actual circle to bring everyone together and, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jeremy Robinson: would be really, really important Matt Kosterman: Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, Chicago's still a little bit behind California in that regard as well. You know, it's happening here, but much more slowly. Jeremy Robinson: for sure. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Jeremy Robinson: No, I'm, I'm very fortunate Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jeremy Robinson: live Matt Kosterman: Where you live. Yeah, beautiful. [01:20:00] Well, Jeremy, that was great. Amazing conversation. Anything, anything you wanna, Jeremy Robinson: so Matt Kosterman: anything you wanna add? Anything you wanna close out with and Jeremy Robinson: Hmm Matt Kosterman: message? Any great books you're reading, podcasts you're listening to? Jeremy Robinson: Oh, you know what? I'm not a big podcast listener Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Me, me neither. I just have one Jeremy Robinson: listen, l- I might have to li- I might have to check up on yours. Um, no, just listen to a lot of music. Um, I would recommend, if people are looking for some amazing, thoughtful tribal music to look up the Huni Kuin tribe of the Amazon. They have some great stuff on, uh, Matt Kosterman: On YouTube. How do, how do you spell it? Hooniqueen? The Jeremy Robinson: H-U-N-I K-U-I-N. Matt Kosterman: Oh, Southern like it sounds. Okay, great. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah, Hu- so Huni Kuin. Matt Kosterman: Wynn Jeremy Robinson: Um, beautiful medicine songs. [01:21:00] they have a very small community in the Amazon, and there's actually a... I'm gonna do a shout-out here really quick 'cause I need to Matt Kosterman: Yeah, 'cause we didn't even get into the whole-- A little bit about the Icaros and, and the music, but we didn't even get into the whole music is the, music is the medicine Jeremy Robinson: It is. Um Matt Kosterman: guides it Jeremy Robinson: So the, the, the organization is called Nawabu Culture, I can spell it. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, spell it Jeremy Robinson: N-A-W-A-B-U Matt Kosterman: NAW A-A-A-A-BU. Okay, it spell checked it. So, culture? Okay Jeremy Robinson: Yep.co. Matt Kosterman: That's CO, okay Jeremy Robinson: [01:22:00] Um, they are huge advocates for the Huichol tribe really bringing forth the medicine to the people, um, bringing their music out and yeah, I, I can't say enough about the, the work that they do. So Matt Kosterman: Great, great. Jeremy Robinson: to bring that forward Matt Kosterman: Great resource. I'll put that in the, in the little texty thing in the podcast below, so Jeremy Robinson: and always great, great music for medicine work. Um, their prayers are very potent, Matt Kosterman: Beautiful Jeremy Robinson: yeah, something I'm always seeing in my own work Matt Kosterman: Amazing. Have you s-, speaking of, have you s-, have you done a despacho prayer circle before? Ever? Jeremy Robinson: not. Matt Kosterman: Oh, despacho is beautiful. Beautiful. It's, it's from the Quechuan. Quechua? Quechuan? Yeah. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah, Quechua Matt Kosterman: Yeah, you, you lay down a, like a fabric, and then you bring in different earth elements, um, whatever, anything from leaves and pine [01:23:00] cones and chocolate and corn starch and corn and, you know, just all that. And then during the ceremony, as you're, you know, journeying on the medicine, as you're individually called to come up front, not by anybody, but you feel called to go up front, you, um, you build a, a, a mandala. You, you add to the mandala with the earth elements as you, as, as you say your prayers, as you... A- And, and, and then at the end, it's all wrapped up, and there's a beautiful ceremony where it-- they, they come around and sing, sing the prayers and hold them on your belly and hold them on your head and, and, and then bury them or burn them, the next day, and it's, super beautiful, super moving. So if you ever, yeah, get a chance, and it's gorgeous. It's gorgeous. Jeremy Robinson: Oh, I love that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, first time I was, I was, so first time I, we did, I was just a puddle. I was we had, like, Jeremy Robinson: You're Matt Kosterman: pro- professional musician was, was singing and, yeah, I was, I was just, well, I was just, yeah, were useless[01:24:00] Jeremy Robinson: Oh my Matt Kosterman: in the best way. So Jeremy Robinson: The more I, the more I, you know, my, my shaman is actually Apache, Matt Kosterman: Hmm. Jeremy Robinson: and so she's gotten me into a lot of indigenous traditions and, introduced me to a lot of people. And man, their, you know, sun dance, moon dance, lodge Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Jeremy Robinson: so intriguing Matt Kosterman: That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, I just, yeah Jeremy Robinson: had opportunity to do any of it yet, but Matt Kosterman: I just did a deep dive, a thing called shamanic de-armoring, in April. Was a two, over a two-week, retreat that opened and closed with a sweat lodge, and then we were doing, br- vi- it was breath, breath vibration and sexual energy that we were moving for the, the whole time. No medicine, whatsoever, and, super powerful. It was, the, the twist, the Twisted Hair Elders, and they, they do, um Sundance for [01:25:00] 10 days in, in June, which I may do, next year. Sounds pretty cool. It's in northeastern Arizona, I believe, Jeremy Robinson: Okay, Matt Kosterman: which I think is up... Yeah, is that Four Corners? It's up in the high desert. Jeremy Robinson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, gotcha. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, so Jeremy Robinson: that, that we're familiar with is up in, I think South Dakota or North Matt Kosterman: Sure. Yeah, yeah, the big one. Yeah. Lakota. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's intense, man. They pierce, pierce their chest and tie themselves to trees. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. In a good way. One day. All right, brother. Well, thank you so much. let's, peace out on this. Thanks everybody for listening Jeremy Robinson: Thank you so much, Matt. Really appreciate it. Matt Kosterman: You bet, Jeremy Jeremy Robinson: All right, bud