S2 • E17 Gehani === Neil Gehani: This is Matt, and I'm back with another episode of "The Permission Slip." Today we have a really interesting, dynamic, intelligent guest. His name is Neil Gahani. is an ethics sherpa, and his company is called Mind Lumen. Neil, welcome Neil Gehani: Matt, thank you for having me on your show. Uh, I'm looking forward to our conversation Matt Kosterman: Yeah, me too. This is gonna be, this is gonna be great. So ethics, uh, and when, when we're talking about ethics, we're specifically talking about ethics in the psychedelic medicine space, correct? In general. That's Neil Gehani: Correct. Matt Kosterman: yeah. Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: um, give us a little bit of your background, Neil. You've, uh, you're Asian from India. Tell... You, you were, we were chatting beforehand, and it's just fascinating and, and a little bit sad, with Neil Gehani: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: you had to go through. So give us, give us the Neil Gehani: Yeah, so I, I grew up in India Yeah, I could tell you that I grew up in India about, uh, my parents, um, decided that, hey, I'd be better off there in school, so they put me on a plane at about four and a half, and they said, "Time for you to go to school." Um, I was handed off to a flight attendant, and, uh, flight attendant dropped me off with my uncle. Neil Gehani: My uncle dropped me off on a train. Somebody picked me up at the other end, and I went to a military boarding school, which is a British military boarding school, no less. Um, I remember being in a bus, and there was a cage, and I thought I was going to prison. I mean, now looking back on it, I thought I was going to prison. Matt Kosterman: Wow Neil Gehani: when the gates close behind you, it's big iron metal gates, um, and the, the walls are covered with broken glass, so you can't leave the school compound without permission. So I was in that school from four and a half till 15. I was there for nine months out of every year. I only saw my parents twice a year, once in the summer and once in the winter. Neil Gehani: Um, and, Matt Kosterman: where were they? Where were Neil Gehani: so that, that was my... Matt Kosterman: Where, Neil Gehani: My parents were in, in the Middle East in Bahrain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: oil, oil work Neil Gehani: Yeah, she was, she was, uh, she was, uh, neither one of them worked in a oil place, but that's where a lot of the, um, Indians went. My dad worked for a British company, and my mom worked for the airlines. And I think the only reason she hated working for the airlines, she actually hated it, but she worked for the airlines because she could get us, uh, discount tickets to go back and forth twice a year for all the four kids. Matt Kosterman: OK Neil Gehani: she d- she sacrificed herself to work somewhere just so she could get us back and forth. Um, you know, so Matt Kosterman: And you, and you were four and a half, and you said your next oldest sibling was 10 years your senior? Neil Gehani: Yeah, about eight, eight, nine, eight, nine years my, my senior, yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Oh, Neil Gehani: Yeah. Oh, the door. Hang on, let me close the door. Matt Kosterman: the ghost just opened the door behind you there Neil Gehani: Yeah. Sorry Matt Kosterman: yeah. So, so here you are, British boarding school, four and a half, all by yourself for 10 years Neil Gehani: Yeah, pretty much. Exactly. 11 years. Yeah, pretty much there. Um, yeah, I, I was, um... Yeah, and I hated it. I, I, you know, when I left, I just didn't want anything to do with India, and I kind of abandoned my-- I, I basically abandoned my entire culture, uh, because of my experience, um, there. I, I did not like... I remember at 11 having a huge argument with my parents because my, one of my closest friends, who also was going to school in India, his parents took him out of the school in India and put him in an international school that had opened up in, in Bahrain. Neil Gehani: And so I had to, I said, "Well, why can't, why can't you do that for me? Why can't I go to this international school that like five, 10 minute walk from where we're living, and I could be coming home every day," right? And I didn't want to go to this school in India and, and I, I don't think I, I don't want-- I didn't win that argument. Neil Gehani: I still had to go back. Matt Kosterman: Oh Mann. Neil Gehani: until much later I had to find out why, why they, uh, decided to do that. Um, but it was-- But nevertheless, they cared about my education. I learned later, like my mom did a lot of, a lot of sacrifice, you know, in order for us to get good education. And so I was fortunate that, um, that we all had, we all had a good education, and it was really, really good even though it was like a very shitty school to go to. Neil Gehani: Education-wise it was really good, but otherwise, Matt Kosterman: y- Neil Gehani: otherwise not Matt Kosterman: but you obviously you did well. You said you graduated from, from high school age 16, Neil Gehani: 15. Yeah, 15. Matt Kosterman: came Neil Gehani: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: to, came to the States Neil Gehani: Yeah, I worked, I w- went in, uh, went back to Middle East for a wh- a while to live with my parents, and then I worked there for a while because I needed to earn money, and then, you know, they couldn't afford to send me to college. So I wanted to go to college, so I ended up working in the oil field. Neil Gehani: I, uh, worked as a painter in an oil refinery. I worked in a barge, you know. So I earned money, and then I could, uh, pay for some of my college, and, uh, then I applied for scholarships and grants. And, um, so I was able to... And I had three jobs in college while I was supporting myself and, uh, putting myself through school. Neil Gehani: Uh, luckily, very few universities would accept a 16-year-old, uh, when I applied. I didn't, like, to, to be honest, like, you know how in high schools, in American high schools, I w- I've visited an American high school here, they have guidance counselors. They help you like, "Hey, which colleges you wanna apply to?" Neil Gehani: All... We had none of that. Matt Kosterman: None Neil Gehani: I had to go to the library, find a book, all the universities, and I applied to a, at least one university in every single state in the United States. And in the warm states, I applied to the more universities, like California, Florida, Texas. You know, I applied to several, Matt Kosterman: and this is, this is Neil Gehani: bec- Matt Kosterman: This is literally a, a book. Like, you don't just Neil Gehani: A book, right. Matt Kosterman: to Google and Neil Gehani: A hardback, yes. A hardback like this big. It was like this book. And, and like went to the library and like, okay, picked it up, like started to apply for those u- universities. And then, and Ohio came back and accepted me at 16 years old. And I said, "No questions asked." I didn't know, I didn't know anything about Ohio. Neil Gehani: I just said, "It's the US, I'm gonna go." It's... I thought everything was like California. It's like because that's what I saw in the movies, you know? Matt Kosterman: Uh, I bet you were s- unpleasantly surprised come January Neil Gehani: Oh, I was very, very... I was-- It was November when I landed in, in, in Ohio, to be, be fair. I was like... And I knew, like, that the weather was bad. Oh shit, it's cold. So I had-- I was dressed up in a three-piece suit. Um, I had an overcoat, gloves, and, like, I'm landing in Ohio. I landed in Cleveland, Ohio, and I'm going, "This is freaking cold," you know? Neil Gehani: And it was, like, 2:00 in the morning. Uh, it was crazy. And it's like, the funny story is that I kinda got in a cab, and I asked the, uh, cab driver, like, "Take me to the hotel nearest to the Greyhound Bus station," because I didn't know that you could actually fly internally. So I just said, "I'm just gonna go," and I said, "Drop me off to the hotel nearest here because I'm gonna catch a Greyhound bus the next day." Neil Gehani: I had heard about the Greyhound, again, through movies. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So Neil Gehani: so Matt Kosterman: to, you went to northern, so it was northern Ohio Neil Gehani: Yeah, northern Ohio. Yeah, exactly. I went to-- It's actually western Ohio. Where I went to school is western Ohio, but I landed in Cleveland. So he said, "Are you sure you wanna go to the hotel nearest to the Greyhound Bus station?" Like, it's sort of smack dab in the middle of the city. It's not a very pleasant place to be. Neil Gehani: And I told-- I was told, like, not to trust cab drivers, so I said, "Yeah, of course." I mean, I'm like this confident 16-year-old. "Of course, you should take me there. I'm not gonna believe you. You're not gonna take me somewhere else." Matt Kosterman: right Neil Gehani: enough, he drops me off right across from the bus station in, um, at, at a motel, and I walk in, and it's wall-to-wall red carpeting with these purple lights and stuff, and this nice old couple sitting there. Neil Gehani: And, and they go, uh, you know, they welcome, they're super smiling. I said, "I just need a room to crash for the night. I'm gonna catch the bus the next day." And, and, uh, and there was all of these beautiful women standing in the hallway smiling at me. I was like a little kid. And I said-- And I asked them, I said, "So who are these wonderful, beautiful women?" Neil Gehani: They say, "Son, they're called hookers." I said, "What's a hooker?" I d- you know, I didn't know. Like, British, they call-- British, they call them tarts, but I didn't, I didn't really know that word at all, you know? Um, so that's the first word I learned in the United States, by the way. Matt Kosterman: H- hooker. The first, first Neil Gehani: The first word Matt Kosterman: yeah, vernacular Neil Gehani: Yes. That's, that was, uh, that was my first, first m- first lesson. Neil Gehani: Welcome to America. So I said, "Okay." The next, the next day I got on a bus. I went to Ada, Ohio. I actually went to Lima, Ohio, which is clear across the state. It's a 14-hour bus ride. It's a three-hour drive Matt Kosterman: Yep. Yep. Neil Gehani: because the bus stopped every freaking way along the way, and I was starving, and I couldn't get off the bus because I thought if I get off the bus, then I'm gonna lose, miss my bus, and I don't know when the next bus is gonna come, you know. Neil Gehani: I didn't have Google Maps then, no iPhones then, you know. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Neil Gehani: nothing like that. So I stayed on the bus, got to Lima, Ohio, caught a cab to Ada, Ohio. They dropped me off at the university. I had a letter saying I'm supposed to show up. So it's a Friday. I show up. Nobody's here. Matt Kosterman: Nobody Neil Gehani: I like... Nobody in the door. I'm calling, like nobody's there. Neil Gehani: Some guy comes out, the house resident comes out and he says, "What are you doing here?" I said, "Well, the letter said I'm supposed to show up today." He said, "Well, the school's not open yet. It will open on Sunday." Um, I said, "Why?" He said, "It's Thanksgiving." I said, "What the hell is Thanksgiving?" So he proceeds to tell me about the Pilgrims and the turkey and all of that. Matt Kosterman: So Neil Gehani: And I go... Matt Kosterman: and turkey at this point. Neil Gehani: I, yeah, it's the second word I learned, what Thanksgiving was, you know. It's like I didn't know about Thanksgiving. So I said, "Well, where am I gonna stay?" So he dropped... There's only one motel, which is at the edge of town. So he drops me off at this, this motel at the edge of town, black and white TV. Neil Gehani: I'm still in my same three-piece suit. I'm cold as hell. I'm now, by now I'm like super starving. So I walk back into town and, like it's about a mile, walk back into town and I look up the sign, says Pepsi. I said, "Oh, Pepsi." I recognize Pepsi. I got Pepsi in the Middle East and in India, so like, okay, I recognize Pepsi. Neil Gehani: And I walked into the bar, uh, bar restaurant, and I said, "Whatever that picture is on the sign, can I have one of those?" And it was actually a round thing with a triangle cut out it, little round things on it. Matt Kosterman: Ja. Neil Gehani: And she said, "You mean a pizza?" And I said, "Okay, I'll have one of those." That's the third word I learned when I came to the United States, and that was my favorite food for a long freaking time. Neil Gehani: Every Friday I had pizza. Matt Kosterman: you had pizza. You Neil Gehani: And, uh, so I took my pizza and my... And then they gave me this two liter bottle of Pepsi, which I'd never seen before. I'm used to like these 10 ounce bottles. So I carry my two liter bottle of Pepsi and my pizza, and I walk back to the motel, and I had that for three days until I checked back in the university. Neil Gehani: That was my, that was my experience coming to the US. Matt Kosterman: Wow, what an initiation. Neil Gehani: Ja. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, but you, you did all right in school? Neil Gehani: I did all right in school. The first two years I was completely lost in college. Like, because in the... To, to, to help you understand and help your viewers understand, like people go, "Oh, boarding school means preppy." No, boarding schools in America is a preppy. Boarding schools in the India are not preppy, right? Neil Gehani: We lived in horse stables. We didn't have running water Matt Kosterman: Holy shit Neil Gehani: We had to, we, we had to go across to the horse stables. Five kids, each of us had half a, a bucket of water. We would heat the water on the fires there that they had. We would take it and we'd go into the old horse stables where they'd set up a big drum. Neil Gehani: We'd drop all of our hot water into half a filled cold water drum. Matt Kosterman: Ja Neil Gehani: That's how we made the water warm. Then we have these plastic mugs where we'd dip in these drums, and that's how we took showers Matt Kosterman: Wow Cr- like, like medieval. Neil Gehani: Yeah, very much so. We didn't have, you know, it was like, so we didn't... Like, every single moment of your life was controlled. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Neil Gehani: Like, you woke up at 5:30, you had PT, you had so much time for a shower, you had so much time to get ready. You had to walk an assembly line, you had to assemble, you walk across the jungle to go to the school, Matt Kosterman: Ja Neil Gehani: and that's where the mess hall was. Neil Gehani: You ate food at a s- particular time. You had assembly, you started classes, you had breaks. Every single moment of the nine months of every single year is completely regimented. Matt Kosterman: Wow. Wow. Neil Gehani: You have no control over your own being until you graduate. So when I got to college, nobody was telling me to go to class Matt Kosterman: Uh, sure Neil Gehani: So I didn't go to class You know, I go, "I'm free. Neil Gehani: I don't have to go to class. Nobody's telling me to go to class." Matt Kosterman: Right, right Neil Gehani: So here the school takes me in, the university takes me in, said, "Hey, you have these great grades. We give you a scholarship. We got you loans, we got you grants." Two years in, like, you know, after my sophomore year, the dean calls me into the office and he goes, "What's up with you not going to class? Neil Gehani: And your grades suck." Right? You know, it was, like, below two or around two something. Matt Kosterman: Ja Neil Gehani: And, uh, and I had to tell him, like, "Oh, you mean I have to go to class?" He goes, "Well, yeah." Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Neil Gehani: You know? Matt Kosterman: you're here. Neil Gehani: "That's why you're here." And, and, uh, and I told him Matt Kosterman: you're, like, 16, 17. I mean, it's, Neil Gehani: Yeah, I'm s- like 17 years old, right? It's like Matt Kosterman: to get 17, 18-year-olds to do something, you know, when they know they're supposed to do it. Neil Gehani: That's right. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Neil Gehani: And here, I'm kinda lost for two years. I didn't, I didn't really Matt Kosterman: but Neil Gehani: know, Matt Kosterman: sure Neil Gehani: oh, this is how college works, you know? And y- you are on your, you are basically an adult. There's nobody supervising you. You can go to class or not go to class, you know, but your grades are gonna suffer, and what the consequences of those are. Neil Gehani: Nobody's, nobody's talked to me about any of this Matt Kosterman: ja, Neil Gehani: until the dean, who was really nice, he, he, he sat down and told me like, "Okay, these are the consequences you're gonna face if you don't go to school and go to class and get your grades, and what's gonna happen to you in your future." Like, nobody told me that in high school because every single morning they're like... Matt Kosterman: yeah, so he kicked you in the ass, and then Neil Gehani: He kick- he kicked me in the ass and I said, "Oh, shit. Okay, I need to... If I need to make a living, I need to, like, do this." So I buckled down and I, and I studied. By, by my sophomore year I joined the tennis team, so I didn't feel lonely anymore because I, I was, I was playing, um, I was playing tennis since I was seven, so I was on the college tennis team. Neil Gehani: I joined the soccer team, and that's how my name got in the paper. That's how the kids, other kids got to know me. Matt Kosterman: Okay Neil Gehani: so that's... Then it, my social life became a little bit, uh, better. But before that I was kinda lost. You know, I just didn't, I just did, I just didn't know. I didn't fit in, um, anywhere. I felt completely lost. Neil Gehani: But I also went, "Oh, I need to make a living." So yeah, he did teach me, and then I just, you know, buckled down. I got... Then I got, I graduated with like 3.8. I would've graduated with like 4.0, but I graduated with like 3.8 because of my first two years sucked. So, Matt Kosterman: And Neil Gehani: but that was still good. I got a, you know, um... Neil Gehani: Yeah, I think my, my first, my first girlfriend was like 17, when I was 17 years old. It's the first time I dated someone. Um, it's the first time I visited a farm. Like, you know, I she took me. Her parents lived on a farm, and I I went and stayed with her for the summer and... Matt Kosterman: uh, oh, for the summer. Neil Gehani: But it was, like, a very good learning experience. Neil Gehani: Like, learned how to drive a tractor, you know, worked, you know, on a combine. Worked on a, worked in the farm, and so it was very... I had some amazing experiences, uh, you know, growing up Matt Kosterman: yeah, yeah Neil Gehani: and, uh, that other people probably didn't have. Um, so I loved, I loved that part of it. Uh, it's not something I would... I know, okay, it's not, this is not what I wanna do with my life, so I'm gonna become an engineer Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Neil Gehani: uh, and, Neil Gehani: and, uh Matt Kosterman: you graduated with an engineering degree and, and also Neil Gehani: Yeah, I graduated with a mechanical engineering degree and a minor in computer science. Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: And got an MBA shortly after? Neil Gehani: Yeah, I got an MBA shortly after. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: and then California called Neil Gehani: Yeah, then California called and I moved, uh, my pa-- mom mo-- got moved to California and then so I, I said, "Okay, uh, mom's there. I'm gonna go there." Matt Kosterman: Ja Neil Gehani: and I got, luckily I got a job in California, and I packed my bags and moved out to California, and I've been in California ever since. Neil Gehani: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And, and, and had, has, have had quite a career in Silicon Valley. Neil Gehani: Yes. I've had quite a career. I've been quite successful, um, you know, by all external measures. Uh, like I was saying it before, like by all external measures, I've been, uh, very successful. Um, uh, I worked in tech most of my life, so, you know, I remember like coming into psychedelic space the first time, everybody was suspicious of people coming from tech. Matt Kosterman: Uh, Neil Gehani: Like, I, I remember like, "Oh, this feels like college again," like everybody's suspicious 'cause you're coming from a different part of the world, you know? Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Neil Gehani: so I, I felt like that. Matt Kosterman: so you're in tech. You, you rode, rode the boom. I mean, we've had a 30, you know, 35-year boom Neil Gehani: Yes. Yes. I've been through the cycle, like I've been the bust as well in 2000s, you know, the 2000s, uh, early 2000 bust, right? Uh, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, it Neil Gehani: web, uh, the Web 1.0 bust. Matt Kosterman: Right Neil Gehani: so it's like, uh, I've been through that. I've been through the 2008, 2009 recession. Um, this is my third company, so I had a company then as well, and I remember like, um, really suffering. Neil Gehani: Uh, like at that point, recession, like almost my entire business had stopped. So I had, you know... And I remember '20, what, '11, 2010, 2011, I, I was almost homeless, uh, because I was like broke. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I Neil Gehani: and, Matt Kosterman: I did di- I did divorce, foreclosure, and bankruptcy through that, through that cycle. That was a, that was a lot of fun, so I can, I can relate. Neil Gehani: Then you can relate. You can, you understand what that feeling is like, Matt Kosterman: But Neil Gehani: you know Matt Kosterman: bounce back and, and you're at a point w- you were at a point where everything, everything was ... should b- should've been great Neil Gehani: Yeah, everything should have been great. And, uh, you know, like I, I, yeah, I, I like, uh, I think in 2011 also, like, had a major accident, so I broke my elbow on a bike accident. Um, so I was like, uh... Then I had a-- Then 2014 that I had another accident in the same elbow, and I broke my hip, broke my clavicle, broke my, broke the same elbow and shattered all the metal in the bone. Neil Gehani: I was in hospital for four days, and I was like, I was, I had no job, uh, you know, and I was hobbling around trying to get interviews and job, and luckily I got something in October of 2014 and went back into tech. So, um, I was able to, like, build my career back up, build my savings back up, and, and, um, work from 2014 all the way through June of 2021, right? Neil Gehani: So, um, so I had a pretty good-- I had overall a pretty good career, but like I was saying, like 2015 was, uh, that wa- that was kind of the year of going like, "Yeah, I'm back in tech. Everything feels good. I'm successful. I'm married. I have a house." All of that's-- Everything's great. Like, but something is, something is not right, and that's kind of where my inclination started. Neil Gehani: So that's, that's when my first sort of epiphany was like, "Oh, shit, something is off and, and I need to do something with my life." I couldn't tell you what, but, um, yeah. And then 2017 was my first, first psychedelic experience with the Oregon Eclipse, yeah. So that's, that's when the ball started really for me. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And, and the Oregon Eclipse is a dance festival. Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: Is it a, is it a regional Burning Man or is it s- uh, independent? Neil Gehani: Just, no, it was a, it was a total eclipse. It was an eclipse festival. Uh, that said, it was in Oregon. Um, and, uh, Matt Kosterman: And what Neil Gehani: yeah, it's the first time I went to see a total eclipse. And, uh, you know, it's kinda funny because we just, we just... Uh, the second eclipse that I saw was this year when we were in Spain. So we were just-- I just came back from Spain, and we saw a second total eclipse there at another music festival with a bunch of our friends. Neil Gehani: Some of the same friends that we went with to Oregon are, uh, we were also in Spain with. So yeah, after, after that, that was my first experience, um, with, uh, with MDA Matt Kosterman: happened at, what happened at the, at that? So you, 'cause you said you, you, did you even, did you drink alcohol up until this point? Or were Neil Gehani: Nope. Nope. I did, I, I did not drink a lot of alcohol at all, no. Matt Kosterman: And Neil Gehani: And, Matt Kosterman: marijuana Neil Gehani: a lot of wine those days, so I, I used to drink a lot of wine, and I was, um, um... I had single malt scotches. I had all kinds of stuff in my house, like I, that I appreciated, you know. Wine, uh, scotch, uh, like, uh, I was, I was drinking wine regularly. Neil Gehani: But at Oregon Eclipse, I don't think I drank anything. I had lots of Gatorade and, and water, and for some reason, I don't know, I wasn't... But somebody gave me something and, Matt Kosterman: Someone Neil Gehani: later on realized that Matt Kosterman: this. They, some- Neil Gehani: What's that? Matt Kosterman: someone said here, try this. Neil Gehani: Yes, exactly. And it was among my friends, so I said... Uh, and they-- I think they s- they saw that I wasn't, like, feeling very well, and so they basically say, "Here, this will help you." Neil Gehani: I said, "Oh, what is that?" Um, "Okay, never mind. Just have it." And said, "Okay, fine." I trusted them, so I took it and, uh, and it was like, whoa, this thing-- The world just kinda opened up to me, and my mind was like I said, I was like-- I was like a five-year-old kid in an adult body, and I loved every freaking moment. I was, like, going around hugging people, and I- I'm not like that at all. Neil Gehani: I'm, like, super reserved and, and, uh, very shy. I'm an introvert. Um, so this is not like me at all. It completely changed me. Like, it was an-- I became a kind of an extrovert and talking to people, which, you know, was very, very surprising. The lights were very bright. And later on, I, uh, later on, I found out that it was, like, it was MDA, it was Sassafras, and, and that's really when my research really started in the, the psychedelic world, and I wanted to understand what was happening to me and how it happened. Neil Gehani: And that's when I started studying everything I could s-study. I started ser- researching the trials. I came across the Imperial College of London study. I was reading Michael Pollan's book, uh, you know, "The Psychedelic Experiences" guide. Like, all the books that I could consume, I was basically reading Matt Kosterman: The Neil Gehani: much as I could. Matt Kosterman: the student, the student came Neil Gehani: I was, Matt Kosterman: and, and Neil Gehani: a very, very curious, uh, student of the, of the substances and the psychedelics and how they were doing. But, but for some reason, I was also very, very cautious, you know? So I was a very cautious person. Um, so I wanted to do this therapeutically. Matt Kosterman: Угу Neil Gehani: So I started my search to try and find someone to help me. Neil Gehani: Um, and it took three years to find someone to help me, Matt Kosterman: Holy smokes. In the Bay Area Neil Gehani: in the Bay Area. And this is pretty common. Like, now it's easy, but, but to me, when it took me three years and I finally found someone who was of Asian descent, which was very rare, Matt Kosterman: Угу Neil Gehani: she was amazing. She was a great-- She was a great therapist. I took my first therapy session in March of 2020 Matt Kosterman: OK Neil Gehani: I was laid off during COVID, COVID, and I said, "Okay, I'm not gonna go to work. Neil Gehani: I'm gonna work on myself." Um, so I took that period to work on myself, and I had therapy sessions Matt Kosterman: what was the therapeutic experience with MDMA again? M- M- Neil Gehani: Yeah. So my first therapeutic experience was supposed to be scheduled in June of 2020. So I was working with this therapist, and I was preparing myself for it, and then had to get-- had to be postponed because my mom dies in, in June of 2020. Matt Kosterman: So did, Neil Gehani: So I had to deal with all of her. Yeah. It's, you know, she didn't die of COVID. Neil Gehani: She was just, you know, she was getting older and, and, uh, so I went to, I went to visit her, and I, you know, uh, uh, the first day she was lucid, and the second day she was gone. Matt Kosterman: うふ Neil Gehani: You know, but I was by her bedside, so it was, it was, it was good to see her, uh, before she went. And, um, but so I postponed it to October. Neil Gehani: So I had my first high-dose MDMA session with a therapist, just me and her. Matt Kosterman: んうん。 Mm-hmm. Neil Gehani: of my life. The whole experience took place, like, virtually, like mentally underwater Matt Kosterman: Underwater. Neil Gehani: deep ocean water, Matt Kosterman: Okay. Neil Gehani: scared to death of deep ocean water. I, I'm, I'm scared to death. Like, I, I'm not a good swimmer, so I, I don't like where my legs doesn't touch the ground, right? Neil Gehani: But the entire MDMA experience felt underwater, deep. I was riding horses at the bottom of the water. My friends were surrounding me. I was floating and looking up at the... It was just the most beautiful dreamlike experience that I can possibly imagine. And, and, um, it was just such a beautiful experience. Neil Gehani: Oh my God, I can't believe this is so amazing, and they're keeping this from us. Like this, this doesn't make any sense. Matt Kosterman: make Neil Gehani: You know? Matt Kosterman: Yeah Neil Gehani: It makes no sense whatsoever. And then the next one was in January of 2021 with, uh, mushrooms and, uh, MDMA, Matt Kosterman: Okay. Little hi- little Neil Gehani: combination. Matt Kosterman: flip Neil Gehani: Yeah. And it was, it was okay. It wasn't, uh, it wasn't profound. Neil Gehani: I was-- I think I remember telling my therapist, like, "I feel like I'm coming out of my shell, but only my shoulder is out of the shell, but I don't feel like I'm out of my shell. I still feel like I'm stuck." Matt Kosterman: Yeah Neil Gehani: You know? And, and I was going through my own conversations with her. And so we planned another one in June of 2021. Neil Gehani: And by that time, I had another job. And in June of 2021, we did seven grams Matt Kosterman: Oh, wow. That's a big dose Neil Gehani: of, of, of Golden Teacher, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Neil Gehani: and, um- Matt Kosterman: get you out of your shell. Neil Gehani: Yeah. That was the, that was the most eye-opening and beautiful experience, uh, uh, but I also was very cathartic. I cried for, like, four and a half hours Matt Kosterman: Sure, of course. Neil Gehani: through the whole experience. Matt Kosterman: yeah Neil Gehani: It was not very-- It was very visual for a very small amount of time, but most of the time was super emotional. Neil Gehani: And I remember being my mom, watching her as a kid, watching her mom die Matt Kosterman: Mm. Neil Gehani: a refugee camp in India. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Neil Gehani: She had told me stories, but I didn't know what that experience actually felt like. This is the first time I could actually feel what she felt Matt Kosterman: Yeah, the Neil Gehani: Like I could experience her feelings. This is the first time I could feel sad and pain, but it also is the first time I could feel tremendous joy, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Neil Gehani: ecstasy, love. Neil Gehani: This is the first time I could understand what love actually means, what it feels like in your body. Matt Kosterman: the Neil Gehani: I was switching dimensions, like every, every new emotion was switching a different dimension and going deep, and I wanted to keep going deep. And I, I, I remember coming out of the experience and going, "This is too short." Matt Kosterman: I wanna, Neil Gehani: You know? Matt Kosterman: go back. Yeah. Neil Gehani: "I wanna go back." Because I felt like I was, I was going deeper and deeper into my experiences, and I wanted to, I wanted to go, keep going deeper. So I did several journeys with her, uh, after that. I did, um, ayahuasca. I did ayahuasca with combo. I did, um, uh, rape. I did, um, acid. I did 2C-B. I, I tried everything. Neil Gehani: I am now the guinea pig for every single thing Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Neil Gehani: before I advise anybody. Matt Kosterman: Yep. I can relate. Yep Neil Gehani: So, so I will test everything on myself Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Neil Gehani: because I want to understand how that feels like, what the body feels like, what the, what the, what the onset is, how long does it take for the peak, how long the peak lasts, what the come down effect is. Neil Gehani: Because if... When I woke up from that experience, I said, "The world needs to know about this." And so I didn't know-- I had no idea, like, how I'm gonna let the world know about it. I just knew this, people need to know about this. So, and that's, in fact, that's the phrase that I was repeating. My therapist said, "You were repeating that the world needs to know, the world needs to know. Neil Gehani: And do you know what that meant?" I said, "I don't know, but I know that this cannot be kept from people." Um, so I started to think about how I would do that. The idea for Mind Loom was born probably in the fall, November, December of that year. Just the idea. It wasn't like formulated anything. It just like... Neil Gehani: Yeah, late 2021, I did my first podcast with someone talking about my experience, and I Wanted to think differently. I don't want to be... The one thing that took me was like, if I'm gonna do this, it has to be done differently. It can't be done like the same capitalistic approach that I've worked my entire life in. Neil Gehani: Obviously, that hasn't sustained me, you know, in a sustained happy state. Like I'm not happy. And then I realized that happy is not a sustainable state. It's actually a very transient state because you get happy and then you chase something else, and happiness becomes a chase. So you're never satisfied. Neil Gehani: You're always gonna be chasing the next thing, which is what I was doing with my entire career. I was just chasing the next thing, the next job, the next high salary, the next promotion, the, the next, uh, material thing that I wanted to buy that I thought would make me happy. That, that's all I was doing and, and, and obviously it wasn't, it wasn't sustainable. Matt Kosterman: fulfilling, ultimately Neil Gehani: yeah. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So, so mind, so the seed of Mind Lumen is born and you're wanting to do it differently, uh, meanwhile experimenting with all of the fun substances. Neil Gehani: That's right. Meanwhile, I'm trying everything and I'm, I'm trying to understand everything and, and I did all of that mostly therapeutically. Almost all of that I did therapeutically. I didn't really start my recreational experiences until probably 2023. Um, you know, now, now I do them recreationally, but now I know precisely what to do. Neil Gehani: I know how much to take, I know what the dosage is. I know when, when I'm gonna want to come back to sleep. So my... I'm much more in tune with my body. So this is what I start to now teach people. I educate people about, "Hey, we're not, we're-- we, we want to educate and we want to teach you how to do this safely, even if you're gonna... Neil Gehani: Because we can't, we're not, we're a no judgment community here. We're not gonna judge whether you do it or not. But if you do it, we want you to do it safely." So we will educate people on how to do that safely and to understand what each of these substances are, which ones you should, uh, be able to mix and which ones you shouldn't mix. Neil Gehani: Um, you know, don't we tell people, "Hey, don't drink alcohol with anything related to ketamine," for example. Um, and for me, like after that, like my alcohol consumption went away. My coffee, I stopped drinking coffee. Like just boom, it just happened. It's not like there was a withdrawal or anything, it just like stopped Matt Kosterman: It just went. Yeah, yeah. So but, and let me, let me just back up a minute and, and look at the, the distinction between therapeutic and recreational. And, Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: yeah, unpack that a little bit for me just 'cause I'm, I'm curious of your, what, how you distin- distinguish Neil Gehani: Yeah. Good, good, good question, because this is something I've been, I've been trying to... So I, I think about it in, in sort of three, three, uh, levels. I call it, um, micro, museum, and macro. Museum dose is recreational most of the time, right? And macro is mostly therapeutic. And when I say therapeutic, I mean with, with a facilitator, eyes closed, no external distractions. Neil Gehani: It's just you or you with your partner or family member or whatever you wanna do it, or, or as a group. Um, but it's, it's a therapeutic experience in the sense that it's not recreational. By non-recreational, I mean that you're not going to a festival where the eyes are open, you have external stimuli coming in, right? Neil Gehani: It's very inward focus. It's not external focus. So-- and there's a big difference. Like, if you take acid and go to Burning Man, which I've done, it's absolutely a magical experience. It's beautiful. It's overstimulating. It's absolutely wonderful. It's a great experience. But it's a whole different ballgame if you take acid, you put blindfolds on, and just have your music. Neil Gehani: It's a completely different experience Matt Kosterman: different experience, yeah. And, and I'm, I'm actually curious, what you, your feelings about, let's call it being a therapeutic dose, but it, it's, it's by yourself blindfolded with music on. Does Neil Gehani: That's right Matt Kosterman: does it have to have a facilitator? Neil Gehani: Doesn't necessarily need to have that, but you need to have someone who takes care of you. So you don't need to have a necessarily-- You need to have at least a sitter, Matt Kosterman: I said Neil Gehani: right? Because as much as you can make it comfortable in your house, if you're out of it, you may hit your head on the wall, you may accidentally use your keys and walk out the door and fall down the stairs. Matt Kosterman: Ja, ja. Neil Gehani: The medicine isn't gonna kill you, but because you're, because you're not in your state of mind, the actions that you may take may hurt you. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Neil Gehani: So you need to be someone who's taking care of you at that time. Now, if people experience, they, they know how to, how to do that. Like my tolerance for dose is quite high. Neil Gehani: So, so I can do a much, much higher dose, but now my body's like attuned to it, so I know how to, know how to do it. But I still have my partner with me, like she's taking care of me. Even though she may do it with me, and we do it together sometimes. But But it's never, never... Even my partner does it with me, sometimes I worry about her, so I can't have my own experience because I'm worrying about her. Matt Kosterman: Right. Right Neil Gehani: So you don't want this worry to come into the way. You need to be able to go into your own inward journeys and do that in a very, very sacred way. Like, you can do whatever. You can sit at home and do it. You can have... I don't think phone works. Like, I had to call Fireside, which I think I'm glad Fireside exists because when somebody's doing it and they, uh, like when I went through a trauma with my first LSD or my second LSD dose, I ended up calling Fireside, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and Fireside, for those listening, is a, it's a hotline, uh, for people who Neil Gehani: It's a hotline. Matt Kosterman: challenging Neil Gehani: Yeah. And I'm glad they were there, like, and I had it on my app. I was prepared. So, so preparation is super important. Like, make sure you have some app or someone you can call on the phone. You may not use it, but have it ready, right? So this is kind of stuff you tell people to prepare for. Neil Gehani: You may not know what's gonna happen because none of these you can predict what's gonna happen. So you don't know what the... Your, your, your mindset may be in the... You think is in the best possible mindset, but all kinds of things will be going through your mind, and then I was dealing with some trauma, and I had to, like, call somebody for help, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm Neil Gehani: glad the, the helpline existed to do that. Neil Gehani: But it's not the same, and I realize it's not the same as my, as my therapist being there. It's just not, Matt Kosterman: Угу, угу Neil Gehani: you know? And, and, uh, when someone's there taking care of you, there's a sense of comfort that you can let go, and that's the key. You need to be able to let go. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and I Neil Gehani: Like- Matt Kosterman: the other distinction is that you want that person... I mean, I've, I've journeyed all, all the different ways. M-most of my journeys have been solo across the last eight years. Uh, I've done a b- uh, a lot of-- some group work and some work with a therapist, and I had, I had a friend at the time sit for me. It was only the, second time I'd had MDMA after doing it with a therapist. I had a similar experience two years, although not underwater. Um, I remember he, he wasn't-- He was sort of distract-- He was watching a movie, and my dog was with him, and they were sort of over on the couch. So it was interesting because my, my people-pleasing nature kind of wanted to make sure he was happy. Um, so it's, it's important to choose somebody who is empathetic, who you, you know, who you feel safe relaxing in their presence, um, and you're Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: to care. I-- But that was-- That's been my work is to g- a bit of a caretaker. so y- those, those transference kinds of things can happen, so. Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: and I will see... Matt Kosterman: I, I've fortunately not had to use fireside or, or any of those. I'm pretty, pretty... My body likes the stuff. I enjoy it. I'm, I'm always have-- The observer's always there. The witness is always there. Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: and I've had this conversation with, um, uh, I think it was with Lisa from TryLoam, like... Or no, it was the, it was the holistic apothec, um, down in New Mexico, whose name's escaping me. Matt Kosterman: But she's act- she's a board-certified, uh, pharmacist, um, who's now doing, you know, psychedelic consultations and whatnot. And she's like, "You know, can just go eat some mushrooms. Like, they grow in the ground." I mean, don't go pick them unless you know what you're doing. But, like, they grow in the ground. Matt Kosterman: They come from the earth. You don't have to, you don't have to spend twelve hundred dollars or fifteen Neil Gehani: Absolutely. Matt Kosterman: dollars. Neil Gehani: That's right Matt Kosterman: get a therapeutic... I, I mean, I, I, I guided, I, I guided. I, I sat for a couple of dear friends who wanted to experience MDMA in a dance party, and they danced for six hours, but therapeutic shit came out. Neil Gehani: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you just mean that yes, you can, you can definitely get... You definitely, like my partner also can have like therapeutic experiences even if she's not with a therapist. But there's a difference between external, um, there's a, most of that is all external, so I don't call that therapy, I call it recreation. Neil Gehani: You-- There's therapeutic benefits to it, right? Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, Neil Gehani: It, Matt Kosterman: And I Neil Gehani: absolutely therapeutic benefits to it. Matt Kosterman: I just Neil Gehani: So Matt Kosterman: distinction of, like, therapeutic doesn't need to be with a therapist. Neil Gehani: That's right. It doesn't need to be with a therapist. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Neil Gehani: There is-- the difference maybe, maybe the better way to look at e-externalized journey versus an inward journey. An inward journey, you know, you can have a sitter. Neil Gehani: You don't need-- it doesn't need to be, like, a licensed therapist or something like that. Y-you need someone to take care of you so you can let yourself go freely, right? And you can do a high dose without worrying about yourself because there's somebody taking care of you, and that's all you need. You need someone to take care of you. Neil Gehani: Um, so a lot of people think, "Oh, I need to have board certified and a bunch of letters after my name." No, you don't need that, Matt Kosterman: Non Neil Gehani: right? You need a caring person who knows what the fuck they're doing, Matt Kosterman: Right. Neil Gehani: right? Matt Kosterman: Right Neil Gehani: has done this particular substance at particular dose themselves Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Neil Gehani: multiple times, so they know what that feels like. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, that's Neil Gehani: But that's the person you want, Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. Neil Gehani: you know? So we don't, we don't-- when we s- when I use the word therapeutic, I don't mean a therapist. I just mean a high dose where you can let go Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Neil Gehani: somebody can take care of you, Matt Kosterman: Sure Neil Gehani: that somebody is a trusted person. But in the, in the psychedelic world, there's lots of shit that's happening. Neil Gehani: And so we wanna make sure that when you get matched up, you're getting matched up with a very ethical person. And that's, that's how we landed into ethics. It wasn't like, "Oh, shoot, I'm gonna like somehow magically turn my skill set into become an ethics expert." No, I was trying to match people like me who took-- it took three years, and it shouldn't have taken three years for me to find someone. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Neil Gehani: Uh, so I wanted to like figure out how to make that quicker and faster but safe. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Neil Gehani: so when I started to think about, oh, Matt Kosterman: that's how Mind Lumen came to be Neil Gehani: that's how Mind Lumen was actually born. Mind Lumen was born with the notion that I faced this issue, and many people like me face this issue. Like, if you're well-connected in the psychedelic world, it's not that hard, but majority of people aren't, Matt Kosterman: Right. Neil Gehani: you know. Neil Gehani: It's still a very insular, uh, community. So there's lots of people that need help. And, you know, we're experienced. Like now I can, I can, you know, do it by myself and it's no, no issues. But most people, when I was in that state, most people aren't able to do this, you know, by themselves. So for the vast majority, they need to get connected to someone who can help them, who are-- you know, who's gonna take them on. Neil Gehani: And I'm just not gonna throw them to some random person, which I don't know. And so you can, yeah, you can look it up on internet and go look at Retreat Guru and find some st- uh, retreat and pay thousands of dollars and go there, and then all kinds of things can happen. Sexual abuse happens in-- I'm not saying that sexual abuse doesn't happen in the legalized world. Neil Gehani: It happens too. You can look up doctors and sexual abuse. Lots of things happen in the, in the legalized world. So I don't think it's any worse or better in the underground versus above ground. They, they happen in both places, which is why we as a, a organization also advocate for decriminalization because we think we need to bring it above the surface, not because we think that somehow legalizing it with a whole bunch of certificates and thousands of dollars somehow is gonna make it safe. Neil Gehani: It's, it isn't. People think it's gonna make it safe. No, it isn't. Because once you bring profit into the, into the picture, guess what? Ethics is the first thing that goes out the window. You know? Matt Kosterman: and you also, I think there's a tendency, we've, we've been raised with this tendency, especially when somebody has a bunch of letters after their name or certificates on the wall, that we give our, our power, we give our agency Neil Gehani: That's right. That's right. We do, and that's, that's the biggest thing that I think for me, the biggest issue was me having agency, because I watched my sisters being subscribed a whole bunch of SSRIs, and literally she was knocked out for six months. Matt Kosterman: Wow. Neil Gehani: All kinds of side effects. I couldn't even reach her. I know people that were taking five to seven pills each one to deal with the side effects of the other, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Neil Gehani: right? Neil Gehani: This-- Because the pharmaceutical industry's business is to keep you hooked on their substances because that's their business model. Matt Kosterman: pills. I mean, that's, Neil Gehani: It's, yeah, it's to sell pills. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Neil Gehani: This is, this, this is their business model, Matt Kosterman: yeah Neil Gehani: and so people need to understand that this is their business model. It's not that they're necessarily good or bad. Neil Gehani: The incentive systems is built and the, the systems are there, and the systems cause the corruption. It's not like people going in there are bad. It's, Matt Kosterman: go Neil Gehani: it- Matt Kosterman: "How can we get people..." Like, "How can we hurt people?" It's, Neil Gehani: Exactly. They, Matt Kosterman: pills. Neil Gehani: they're, they-- Exactly. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Neil Gehani: they're, they're working. All the people are working there, they're conscientious, but that's their business model. Neil Gehani: So you have to re- recognize that this is what their business model is. Like in psychedelics, I may take it once, twice, maybe four times a year Matt Kosterman: Right. Neil Gehani: max. I don't ne- So where's the business model here, like that I can make actually money on, on the substance itself, right? It's, it-- There isn't a business model. Matt Kosterman: not a very good one. Neil Gehani: So, Matt Kosterman: it seems to be Neil Gehani: so- Matt Kosterman: facilitators seems to be the business model these days Neil Gehani: That, that, that's right. Neil Gehani: So you need, so you need to create a lot more people that can help people, which means you can democratize this system. You can have a lot of sitters out there. You don't need a bunch of people with a bunch of letters on their name. You just need good people to be sitting for people when they want to be sat for. Neil Gehani: That's it. You don't need to do it all the time, right? It just... You-- But when you need to do a very, very high dose and you want to be able to let yourself go, then you need to have someone safe who can take care of you, who's ethical, right? Who's not gonna sexually abuse you. Uh, can I prevent everything? No, of course not. Neil Gehani: I cannot prevent it. But what we can do is to say, "Hey, we can be the neutral body that basically ethically certifies the people," the, the, the sitters, the guides, the facilitators, the therapists, whatever, the retreats. We can, we can do that, and the ethical people will be as ethically certified, and that-- then the unethical people will go away because they're-- you can showcase who's ethical, and we are that independent body to allow people to showcase how eth-- Because it's about, um, elevating the most ethical people, not punishing. Neil Gehani: It's about saying, "Here's all the people that have gone through an independent certification." Um, we, we are not a provider ourself. I chose not to be a provider for that reason, because I have no conflict of interest Matt Kosterman: of the medicine or of certification? Neil Gehani: Of, uh, of, uh, of medicine. Like I'm not, I'm not a facilitator, I'm not a therapist. I don't own a retreat. I don't own a ketamine clinic, uh, Matt Kosterman: Got it. Neil Gehani: um, Matt Kosterman: But Neil Gehani: I didn't want to have that internal conflict of interest, right? So that was intentional. Uh, and that way I can be neutral. You know, I'm here to help people, providers get certified, and also match people to those certified people, right? Neil Gehani: So that therefore it's because I don't want somebody to have to wait three years to get the help that they need Matt Kosterman: Ja Neil Gehani: from a, from an ethical person. So we're-- that's what we try to do. We try to make ethics practical because ethics is sort of this very nebulous concept that people think, oh, it's just, you know, and you look at all the people have all these codes of conduct. Neil Gehani: You know, um, MAPS has a code of conduct of ethics, Guild of Guides, you know, APA. Like you look at them and go, "Yeah, great, you have a code of conduct, but how do you know that you're actually being ethical?" You know, w- in, in real life, in practical terms, how do you, how do you actually know that? And, and so we, we are, we are helping with that Matt Kosterman: do you know it? And then how do, what's your, do you have a framework? You have a, a, a s- Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: a training system? Neil Gehani: Yeah. So what we don't, we don't train. We, we, we certify the training people, right? So the training, for example, we work with trainers, and we s- we see how they teach ethics, right? And so what we do is that when you teach ethics, we're, we're trying to see whether it's a check-off item or actually core to the curriculum. Neil Gehani: Like, is this embedded, right? And what we focus on, not just ethics in this nebulous concept, we focus on observable and measurable ethics. That means things you can actually see and measure. We can't measure possibly everything, right? So we don't try to. And a good example would be like, let's say you go to a retreat, right? Neil Gehani: And a retreat, you know, we will ask whether they ask for testimonials the day of or the day after your j-journey, which is less ethical as asking for your testimonial a month later after you've had two integration sessions. Matt Kosterman: That it's Neil Gehani: So we-- Yeah, not, it's not as ethical. We don't say... We never think of ethics as binary. Neil Gehani: It's not like you're ethical or unethical. It's always on a continuum. Matt Kosterman: a Neil Gehani: You can be more ethical or you can be less ethical. And so what we say is that the more ethical you wanna be, the better you are in terms of your practice. So we don't think anybody going through a therapeutic level journey with a sitter, with a guide, you know, should always have at least two integration sessions, 'cause that's the standard in the, in, uh, that's the standard the community has agreed to. Neil Gehani: It's not, I didn't make up that standard. The community decided that's what it is, and I basically make that a criteria check, and I will check against that criteria, right? So these are like, these are types of criteria that we evalu- we, we look for and... Matt Kosterman: Prep session as well? A, Neil Gehani: Yeah, prep sessions as well. So you typically a journey book, one or two prep sessions, a journey day, one or two integration sessions. Neil Gehani: So we typically think five, two prep sessions, a journey day, and two integration sessions. That's a journey book to us. So if you do that, you're gonna be more ethical than someone who just does one prep session and one integration or no integration sessions whatsoever, Matt Kosterman: Or Neil Gehani: right? We're not saying that this person is unethical. Neil Gehani: We're simply saying that the person who does more is actually more ethical. So that's what we do. We also look at the ratio. Like if you're going to a retreat, we look at the, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Neil Gehani: the facilitator to participant ratio. You know, because one of the, one of the, uh, one of the organizations, they invited me to an ayahuasca ceremony in, in Peru and, and, uh, and I started asking questions like, "Okay, how many people are going?" Neil Gehani: They said, "Thirty-five." I said, "How many facilitators to these 35 participants?" They couldn't answer that question. Matt Kosterman: They Neil Gehani: "How many of them are sober?" Couldn't answer that question. Matt Kosterman: Wow. and what Neil Gehani: So to me Matt Kosterman: what's the ratio you like to see at the high end of the, of Neil Gehani: Lower the better. So, Matt Kosterman: we're like three to Neil Gehani: so what, what we don't say like there's a, a number. That's why we don't-- That's why we never go with absolutes. Everything is always relative. Matt Kosterman: Okay Neil Gehani: we go, it's better to have a, you know, two to 10 ratio. So two facilitators, right? Who may be taking the medicine with you, who are taking ayahuasca with you, Matt Kosterman: Right Neil Gehani: but there are 10 participants, and then there's two people that are sober, one female, one male. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Neil Gehani: So if something happens, they can take care of the person, right? Because lots of things can happen. Uh, and if you're not sober, you can't take care of someone. So, so it, so it's better to have that ratio than one facilitator with 35 participants also participating, you know, taking it. That means there's nobody taking care of anyone. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Neil Gehani: So, so to me, that, that's how you can make the distinction. So we just say, "This is more ethical, so we give it a higher weight." So we do a weighting system, so which is a very common practice. You generally look at a criteria. There's a score and a weight, Matt Kosterman: OK Neil Gehani: And that's how we determine the overall ethics score based on the different criteria and different scoring mechanisms. Neil Gehani: So it's, so it becomes very practical rather than applied, rather than this theoretical concept of ethics. Like, "Oh yeah, I'm ethical." Well, how would, how, how does anyone know? You know, we don't. So, Matt Kosterman: yeah. Neil Gehani: so that's how we try to do it Matt Kosterman: And so you have people, are, are listed in a database of yours, of, of Mind Lumens? Neil Gehani: Yeah. So we have like almost 39 people that have applied for certification, um, out of, uh, almost 80 or so facilitators that are in our network right now. Matt Kosterman: Got it. Okay. Neil Gehani: still pretty small, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Neil Gehani: so we don't think of it-- We don't, we don't-- We also don't think of it as like, "Oh, we need to grow." We, we think of it as some- as somebody once mentioned, it wasn't me, somebody was... Neil Gehani: There was a topic on the Commonwealth program, and it was about climate. And so one of the young- younger generation mentioned like, "We don't think about ourselves as like growth for growth's sake. We think about this more of a relay race. I'm gonna take it, and then I'm gonna hand the baton off to someone else who can take it further." Neil Gehani: So I don't need to-- I don't have any pressure from the outside that I need to grow and I need to increase this. I wanna do it carefully, uh, but I'm in also a very fortunate position now. Like I was in survival mode at three years ago. I'm no longer in survival mode, so thank goodness that I can actually take the time to think through this carefully rather than just go, "Let me go to a VC and apply for a whole bunch of things and I, and I tell them I'm gonna grow at X percentage or whatever for growth's sake." Neil Gehani: It's not what I-- I've been there, done that. That, you know, it's, it's, it's not very fulfilling because then you chase money and you're not really focused on the care that you want to provide, so. Matt Kosterman: you gotta sell pills. Neil Gehani: And you gotta sell pills, and I don't wanna be doing that. Matt Kosterman: I mean, Neil Gehani: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: gotta be moving widgets of some sort when you Neil Gehani: That's right. Or you sell experiences just for the sake of selling experiences, and I don't wanna be doing that, you know? Matt Kosterman: ja Neil Gehani: I, because I believe that this is like, this, this was such a profound thing for me that it changed me as a person. My friends notice it. My friends go, "You've changed a lot in the last seven years." Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A- and you Neil Gehani: I feel like that change is still happening. Matt Kosterman: Oh yeah Neil Gehani: Uh, but now I, I don't say that I'm living a happy life, but I say I'm living a very blissful life. Neil Gehani: And to me, living a blissful life doesn't mean I'm happy all the time. It just means that I accept whatever it is. It's like I'm in, I'm in a state of flow. I'm like a stream. Sometimes I get stuck on the bottom, sometimes I'm flowing through the top. But nothing scares me. I don't sc- I'm not scared of dying. Neil Gehani: I've seen myself die a couple of times when I was with Saravanan. So, uh, Matt Kosterman: Right. Neil Gehani: so death doesn't scare me, right? And so it's... But it's, it's the joy of accepting my life and, and that, that means now I have, like, infinite patience. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Neil Gehani: I was not a very patient person, you know? And, Matt Kosterman: were always trying to Neil Gehani: and, Matt Kosterman: the next thing Neil Gehani: yeah, I'm not, like, always chasing something. Neil Gehani: I go, um... I also tell people, like, I have a saying. I'll say, you know, "I embrace the JOMO instead of fearing FOMO." I like, "Oh, there's a joy of missing out because I've made a choice, and I accept my choices." And some of them may not be good choices, but that's by someone else's judgment. It may also not be good choices based on my own judgment, but that's still a judgment. Matt Kosterman: Right. And Neil Gehani: And so Matt Kosterman: you're learning through it no matter what the experience is. Neil Gehani: Exactly. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Neil Gehani: I went like, "Noth- nothing is gonna be perfect, but overall my life is very blissful." And when I feel sad, I accept my sadness. I'll turn on some sad music. I'm a, I, you know, I, I'm a DJ, I play some, uh, music on my own. I create some music. It, I, it gives me outlets to express things. I was not a very creative person at all. Neil Gehani: Like, I, I grew up engineering. I'm a very logically-minded person. But psychedelics has opened up a different part of my brain that allows me to be more creative than I've ever been, Matt Kosterman: うん Neil Gehani: and allows me to explore things that I never thought that I would explore. Um, human relationships are much more important to me. Neil Gehani: Uh, you know, people are much more important to me. And so am I perfect? Of course not. I, I make-- I still do shitty things, and I still do th- shitty things and-- But I s- now I recognize them earlier, and I, and I, and I correct for that, and I, and I learn from it, and I try to adjust. I-- Can I, can I go back and undo everything? Neil Gehani: No. All the shitty things that I've done in my life, can I go back and undo it? No, but I've learned from them, and hopefully learned from them because I'm only gonna be able to live in this moment, and what I can do right now is control over this moment. I don't have control over the next moment. I don't have any control over the past moment. Matt Kosterman: you can, you can atone for them, you can ask for forgiveness, and whether it's Neil Gehani: That's right. Matt Kosterman: is up to the person who you, who you hurt, Neil Gehani: That's right. Yeah, absolutely. Matt Kosterman: no say in that. So let me Neil Gehani: No Matt Kosterman: uh, just talk a bit about fr- you talked about friends and community. You've also, uh, created the Asian Psychedelic Society in the Bay Area Neil Gehani: Ja. Matt Kosterman: for people of Asian descent. Matt Kosterman: So tell-- talk Neil Gehani: Ja Matt Kosterman: a little bit about that and how did that come to be? Neil Gehani: Yeah, so it's about two years ago, almost three years ago now. Um, I was, uh, one of the few people, I was talking to one of my friends, uh, he-- we, we, we're just discussing, I went to an Asian community meeting and went like, "Where..." As an Asian, there was nobody else that I could talk to. Like, I couldn't talk to my family. Neil Gehani: My family-- I still can't talk to my family, right? It's just like now my-- both my parents are gone. Um, but my siblings now, now I'm more comfortable talking to my sister. She knows, right? She, she knows that I'm into psychedelics. She does, she knows. So I, I'm pretty open about it now with them. But they don't understand it. Neil Gehani: They're not, they're not gonna understand it, you know? Um, my friends, obviously all my friends know, uh, part of it because they're also very high recreational users. So, Matt Kosterman: Sure Neil Gehani: so we, we have a good time together, so it's fine. And but I also am careful. Like I'm the, I'm kind of the, the psychedelic grandmother, like making sure that they're safe, you know, when they, when they, when they do stuff. Matt Kosterman: Ja Neil Gehani: I'm gonna be harping on them like, "Hey, don't be drinking alcohol if you're gonna be doing anything, right? So just, just..." But I can't stop them. They'll do what they, they'll do what they do. Um, but they, they know, they know, they know me now very well, and they, they've seen that. So I try to help people as much as I can, and I educate people. Neil Gehani: I have had education sessions. I've had music events, taking to people's psychedelic music events. Um, so I try to do that. And each, each of them has an educational component in it. So we always have an educational session prior to that to teaching them about psychedelics. We work with organizations such as DanceSafe, so they will, they will be at my events, and they, they will offer educational services and testing services. Neil Gehani: So we make sure that, uh, that, that is provided for people. So we are, we are, you know, working with other people to advocate for safety, uh, of using these medicines, uh, for yourself. We are non-judgmental. Matt Kosterman: Yeah Neil Gehani: Uh, we want people to be safe, but we also want-- we're, we're strong policy advocates, so I work, uh, with the state legislator here. Neil Gehani: I've gone to them. I've worked with the community people here to change the laws to make sure that these things are decriminalized. So we work on policy, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Neil Gehani: a-as well in the state of California. Uh, we work with the organization locally here to decriminalize it or de- actually technically deprioritize it in the county of, uh, San Francisco. Neil Gehani: Oakland is obviously one of the very first ones. Alameda County was one of the very first ones to actually deprioritize it, effective decriminalization here. Yeah, so we work with, uh, other organizations to, to help, uh, do that on policy side as well. So that's a lot of, lot of my work. Uh, and, and I don't, I don't think about it as work actually. Neil Gehani: It's like, it's just, it's just what I spent my time on. Uh, you know, so it's, it's what allows me to, allows me to spend my time on things. And now I'm basically semi-retired, you know, uh, essentially. Uh, but this is where my time goes, you know? And, and it's a joy. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Neil Gehani: so I just spend my time doing stuff. Matt Kosterman: that's, that's amazing. I wanna, I wanna back up to the, to and make sure that that gets in here and, and this, uh, uh, I think people who are new to this space don't necessarily know that there are places that you can get test kits Neil Gehani: Yes Matt Kosterman: DanceSafe is one of them. Roll, RollSafe maybe? Matt Kosterman: Uh, is that another... Neil Gehani: Yeah. DanceSafe is one of the big, one of the we- very well known now. You can order test kits from them, you know, uh, Matt Kosterman: There's in, Neil Gehani: and there will be a, there will, there's a surprise. I can't say this on the, on the, on the show just yet, Matt Kosterman: Sure Neil Gehani: there will be an announcement, uh, being made by DanceSafe, uh, shortly. Matt Kosterman: Okay Neil Gehani: and, uh, and, uh, th- there'll be a, there'll be a surprise that you will, you will recognize. Matt Kosterman: Oh, Neil Gehani: so, Matt Kosterman: I love Neil Gehani: so, so stay tuned for, stay tuned for that one. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and it's Dance, Neil Gehani: and, Matt Kosterman: dancesafe.org, I believe is Neil Gehani: dancesafe.org, right, dancesafe.org. Matt Kosterman: If you're in the Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: area, there's the, um, there's a van that moves around the city, um, it's, I'm totally-- I'll, I'll put it in the, in the notes 'cause I'm totally blanking on the name of it. Matt Kosterman: But there's a van, they have a mass spectrometer. They want to get tests. They want material turned in because they get Neil Gehani: Let-- Yeah, connect me with them because I would love to, because that's one of the things we do not have at, uh, at, you know, DanceSafe does not have access to a mass spec, Matt Kosterman: Okay Neil Gehani: So one of the things we wanna do is connect them. Oh, I wanna help them connect to someone who does have a mass spectrometer. So if you know this person who's doing the mobile and whether they can do a mobile service in California, we wanna bring that mobile service here to California. Neil Gehani: That's one of the other thing, ideas that I have, is that I want to, um, make testing available ubiquitously for anyone at any time, right. This is one of the policy advocacy things that we've written-- that I've written about, which is, uh, every test should be anonymized and at the point of service, right? So if they're going to a music festival, I want anyone to be able to test anything. Neil Gehani: This was-- happens in Portugal. I was in BOOM in Portugal. You know, they test it on the spot there, right? You can go get anything tested. Uh, they don't ask you your name. They're not-- Because this is what I mean by agency. Like we-- If you really want people to be safe, then every policy should include anonymized testing as part of that by the individual at any given time, anywhere. Matt Kosterman: I mean, all we have Neil Gehani: Otherwise, you're not really advocating for safety Matt Kosterman: just look at Portugal's model. I mean, they decriminalized it. They have Neil Gehani: That's right Matt Kosterman: very little problems with drugs anymore, and Neil Gehani: That exactly Matt Kosterman: have this ridiculous draconian regime trying to tell us what we can put into our bodies, and I, I get really amped up about it. Matt Kosterman: Um, the, uh, it's, it's the Chicago Recovery Alliance, and it's anypositivechange.org, Neil Gehani: Okay, anypositivechange.org. Matt Kosterman: yeah, and they're Neil Gehani: Yeah, if you definitely know the people there, connect me with them. I would love to catch up with you after this. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Neil Gehani: Yeah, th- this, this is so important. Like, this is what I argue with some of my legal friends or the lawyers who want to advocate for legalization. I said, "I'm all for legalization, but let's make a distinction with what legalization is and what commercialization is, because what you're advocating for, you haven't made the distinction between legalizing it and commercializing it." Neil Gehani: Almost everybody that's arguing for legalization is arguing for commercialization, Matt Kosterman: Absolutely. Not for legalization, not Neil Gehani: That is a very different... Matt Kosterman: Yep Neil Gehani: That's right. Not-- And I want decriminalization as part of that, because decriminalization means to me not that people can do whatever they want. Decriminalization means that you're, that anybody can get anything tested at any given time. Neil Gehani: Even if you're a commercialization market, even if there's a commercialized supply chain and you can make the supply chain safe, how do I know that the, the ti- how do I know that Johnson & Johnson's Tylenol still has Tylenol in it? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Somebody's Neil Gehani: I, I want to be that, I want to have that random check on by the individuals so they can go get any substance, get tested any given time, anywhere they want without their name being released, right? Neil Gehani: So that means, that is what safety means to me. Like, that is, that is true insurance for safety. Because the capitalistic system will focus on profit, which means they're gonna cut corners, right? Matt Kosterman: It's built, Neil Gehani: what they're gonna do because the system is designed for that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, it's like the old Monty Python, "It's the violence inherent in the system. It's the violence inherent in the system." Neil Gehani: Yeah. It's a great show. Uh, but that's exactly what-- If we really care about safety, and we're politicians and policymakers and we care about safety, then what is wrong with giving agency to the individual to get anything tested anywhere? Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Neil Gehani: Why are you opposed to that? Matt Kosterman: Right. Because i- if, if you're opposed to it, now it sounds to me like you're really about control and you're Neil Gehani: That's right. Yeah. It's not about safety, it's about making money. Matt Kosterman: making Neil Gehani: You know? Matt Kosterman: or controlling people. Neil Gehani: Yeah, exactly. Matt Kosterman: And yeah, and literally, I've said this before on the show, nobody that we know of in the history of the world has died from simply consuming magic mushrooms. Neil Gehani: That's right. Matt Kosterman: You can't eat too many. I mean, it won't Neil Gehani: That's right. You can't, especially the classics. All the classic psychedelics, like mushrooms, DMT, acid. I know somebody that took like 3,200 micrograms of acid, right? Matt Kosterman: thumbprint, Neil Gehani: gone for two days, but he, he was... He's alive, Matt Kosterman: They Neil Gehani: you know? Matt Kosterman: did he do crystals? Neil Gehani: Sorry? Matt Kosterman: Did he do the thumbprint with the crystals where you take the crystal LSD and you dip your thumb and lick it off? Neil Gehani: No, I, I don't remember how he did it. I don't remember how he did it. Matt Kosterman: of acid, 3,200 mics. Neil Gehani: of acid. No Matt Kosterman: that's a lot of... But he didn't die. No. I bet he's a different person Neil Gehani: He's a different person. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: 'cause that'll take Neil Gehani: And, and, and, uh, it's like, it's-- To me, those... I mean, that was the, that's, that's what I show people always the Imperial College of London study. Like, the number one harm-causing substance to both us and to others, alcohol. Legal, Matt Kosterman: Yep. Neil Gehani: right? Matt Kosterman: Right Neil Gehani: The least harm-causing substance to us and others, classic psychedelics. Matt Kosterman: classic example, yeah. Psilocybin, LSD, all at the bottom of the list. Neil Gehani: That's right Matt Kosterman: yeah, cannabis is somewhere in the middle. Um, Neil Gehani: in the middle. So e- so things that are more harmful, we allow. Like ketamine on Schedule III, right? Matt Kosterman: and yeah, this conversation with, uh, uh, Dr. Peter Grinspoon, who's the cannabis advocate from, from, uh, Mass General, and, uh, y- you know, you, you can, you can literally drive in-- I mean, I went to high school, finished high school in Florida. At the time, we could go to a drive-through, flash an ID, and get a whole carload of liquor, you know? Matt Kosterman: But if I wanna go buy two joints, I need my ID scanned, I need my picture taken. I mean, it's re- it's ludicrous. Neil Gehani: Ridiculous. Yeah. It's completely ridiculous. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Neil Gehani: Yeah. So yeah, I'm, I'm with you. I'm, I'm, uh, I'm a strong advocate as an organization and we're a nonprofit, we're a strong advocate for decriminalization policies. We, we, we, we don't say that it's either/or. We always are advocating for medicalization and decriminalization to coexist because they can. Neil Gehani: Some people definitely need to go through the medical route. If you are bipolar, if you are schizophrenic, and you have a history of that, you know, guess what? You, you, you, you need to go see someone because you probably-- you don't wanna take something that'll put you in a state of psychosis, because we're all for safety. Neil Gehani: So we don't think that, oh, decriminalization is a, is a, you know, it's an either/or proposition. We, we just don't Matt Kosterman: right, it's not in lieu of legalization, it comes Neil Gehani: It's right. Matt Kosterman: it comes Neil Gehani: It's, it's always with it. But we, we have this sort of, we have this, uh, um, saying on our, on our blog that we pub- It's called support, support, oppose. Support decriminalization, support decriminalization with medicalization, but oppose purely medicalization without decriminalization. Neil Gehani: So that's our policy that we d- we, we advocate for that. We, we did scoring cards. We do scorecards for, uh, you know, legislators running for office. We made that as a free service, kind of like a voting, voting guide for psycho- psychedelics Matt Kosterman: Right, right, right Neil Gehani: so they can vote on, you know, who's s- who's supportive of that, you know. Neil Gehani: And so we, we do those kinds of services as part of the stuff we offer, right? We just make sure that we make that available. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, and I want, and I, I also, I wanna zoom out for a minute at the, at, at this whole issue of, of the, the, the legalization and it being illegal. It, it, it... These, these substances are s- are Schedule 1, uh, which, which states that there's no, no known, what's this phrasing? No known Neil Gehani: use, non-medical use. Matt Kosterman: known medical use. Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: I talked to... I mean, I'm, I'm a walking, talking example of, of a, you know, massive remission from body issues, from, uh, uh, depression for years and years of depression. You are the s- you know, the same, the depression, the, the... I mean, I talk to people day in and day out that have benefited from these medicines, so the, the fundamental, premise on which the laws are based is false. Neil Gehani: It, it is. Matt Kosterman: is Neil Gehani: And it's not even should be... Matt Kosterman: true Neil Gehani: That's right. It's, it's just completely not true. Second, the more important point there on top of that is that DEA is not the person to make that rule. It's supposed to be with HHS, not with the DEA. Matt Kosterman: the Neil Gehani: Okay? So it's, Matt Kosterman: DEA, Neil Gehani: That's right Matt Kosterman: psychiatrists that, uh, that, that testified at the DEA hearings on, on the D- on the criminalization of MDMA that it shouldn't be criminalized 'cause it was a Neil Gehani: That's right Matt Kosterman: it is a wonderful therapeutic drug. Neil Gehani: It absolutely is. It Matt Kosterman: it's really Neil Gehani: absolutely is. Yeah. It absolutely is a beautiful thing. You can, you know, you can... I, I know people that have, um, taken it and sometimes take it too high that they suffer dehydration, their heart rate goes up, you know. So you have to be careful with MDMA. Uh, but Matt Kosterman: but people Neil Gehani: for the Matt Kosterman: people also drink a dozen beers Neil Gehani: That's right. So it's like, Matt Kosterman: Like, Neil Gehani: it's relative, right? Neil Gehani: You, you, you give people 16 years old, they can take a, a driver's license and drive a two-ton car, which kills more people on the road than anything else relative to compared to psychedelics. So like, what's, what's wrong with this picture? But people don't think like this, right? This is part of the change in education that we need to help people understand. Neil Gehani: The younger generation are getting it. Like they-- I talk to the younger, they, they understand, like they have access to information. My day, we didn't have access to as much information. Now with AI, I have access to lots of information. I can do lots of research. You know, of course, you need to make sure that there's trusted sources that you can research. Neil Gehani: Like, don't just go on Reddit and r-read something, or just, just Google it and somehow find something. You need to know which sources of information to actually trust. Uh, you know, so even AI, if you ask AI like, "Yeah, do you know the source of information that AI is using?" And without knowing the source, you shouldn't be trusting it. Neil Gehani: Like, so we are-- We need to now educate people on like understanding the source of information that are useful. Like Erowid, go, go use Erowid. Erowid is a great trusted resource, you know. Matt Kosterman: E-R-O-W-I-D, Neil Gehani: D. Yeah, airway.org. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Matt Kosterman: trip Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: and drug safety and m- uh, it, it, it's right out of the '90s. The interface is beautiful, Neil Gehani: That's right. It's pretty, pretty bland, but it's, it's good. The vaults are really good, and so we, we're, we're bringing Interward into the modern age, basically. So we're building an AI, um, um, like a coach, AI coach Matt Kosterman: okay Neil Gehani: for people on safety, so we can... So what we do is we curate, we sp- I specifically curate all the sources of information. Neil Gehani: So I make sure that we're not using... And we have a weighting system as well on the sources of information. So anything that has a commercial interest, we weight it low. Anything that has a non-commercial interest, we weight it high. Matt Kosterman: Okay Neil Gehani: that way we provide the sourcing, but we also provide the rating of the source. Neil Gehani: So we they-- This is how you can trust the information versus not trust the information, right? So that's something we're building as a tool for people to use, uh, so when they wanna ask questions, they're not, like, going into the open ether and asking questions. There's, there's a way to ask questions, and you can ask the same questions, but now we're curating the sources of information and giving the sources of information a rating based on their ethics and based on their conflict of interest. Neil Gehani: Like, that's, Matt Kosterman: Oh, Neil Gehani: how we're, that's how we're doing it. Matt Kosterman: And where that-- And that's gonna be available through Mind Lumen, through your, through your Neil Gehani: that's gonna be available through part of the services. Like we offer lots of services off of Mind Lumen, and so that'll be one of the additional services that we will offer. We offer-- I created an app for people to check in with their emotions, right? You don't need, like a lot of people, um, you know, don't check in with their emotions and feelings, so I, I created a, a simple free app for people to go, "Hey, how are you feeling today?" Neil Gehani: So, so, so just you can record it, but you don't need to like-- don't be hooked to the app. The purpose of the app is to basically just notice your own emotions, Matt Kosterman: Oh, was Neil Gehani: then retrace it Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I don't, um... What's that called? Was that Layer? Neil Gehani: Yeah, later. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Is it... Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: It's L-E-Y-A-R. I Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: Did you, maybe you pushed an update. I couldn't get into it, so it looks like it's working now. L-E, L-E-A-Y, L-E-Y-A-R. Neil Gehani: Yeah. It's like layered, layers of emotions because we're all layered. We're infinite layered onions, so I just called it Layer because with each layer you peel is a different, different part of yourself. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Neil Gehani: And so I wanted people to- Matt Kosterman: it's, it's L-E, the, it's L-E-Y-A-R as opposed to Neil Gehani: Yeah, L-E-Y-R. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Neil Gehani: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: you could've called it Shrek if you remember that movie, the, the Neil Gehani: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Uh, so layer... Yeah, it's for checking. Yeah, it's, it's very cool. I'm glad it's working 'cause I had tried it and I didn't know where it came from. Matt Kosterman: I saw it on the boards. Um, and Neil Gehani: Ja Matt Kosterman: the Mind Lumen is mind, M-I-N-D L-U-E-L-U-M-E-N.org. Neil Gehani: Yes. Matt Kosterman: Mindlumen.org is where you can Neil Gehani: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Neil's, Neil Gehani: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: great work. Neil Gehani: Yeah Matt Kosterman: well, amazing. What a great conversation, Neil. I'm so glad, uh, that I reached out and, and lassoed ya. Neil Gehani: Yeah. Thank you. That's a great... No, it's great, great to talk to people about it with like-minded people and just spreading the word, and thank you for doing what you're doing, just letting people know. Uh, yeah, I'm all for letting people, as many people know that, hey, this stuff is... You can do it safely. It's really safe. Neil Gehani: You just need to get educated by it. We are-- We're not here to judge anyone. We wanna make sure that people are as safe as possible, they can do that. And, um, yeah, there's, there's all kinds of modalities of healing and, uh, I'm not, I'm gonna tell people that you're gonna be cured, and I'm not cured. Like, I still have my ADHD. Neil Gehani: I don't call it D, I call it C because it's a condition. I live with my condition. It's manageable. Uh, I'm not a person with a disorder. I have, uh, it's-- ADHD has become my superpower. It's actually-- It's, it's one of the things that allows me to do many things because just, just how my brain works, you know. I get bored and I have to context switch and-- but when I switch into something, I'm very focused on that switch for a long period of time. Neil Gehani: And then I get bored, and then I have to switch on doing something else, and then I will do that. Matt Kosterman: う Neil Gehani: that's just how my brain works, and so I'm able to do it, and I'm... That's what allows me to do the things that I'm doing, and I'm just letting it go. I'm not gonna try and fight my condition, but I manage it. Neil Gehani: It doesn't overwhelm me. Um, and, and everybody that has conditions, whether you have PTS, whether you have anxiety, whether you have depression. I have-- I had anxiety, I had depression. I remember in Portugal when I was suffering from depression for two months, I couldn't get out of it. I needed ketamine to get me out of it, but it was a temporary fix. Neil Gehani: It didn't, it didn't cure me, it didn't fix me, but what allowed me, it bought me time. Only classics to me, only the classic psychedelics helped get to the root cause of why I am the way I am, and therefore allowed me to manage my condition for myself. Everything else, the SSRIs, the ketamine, they're, they're very useful, but they're, they're symptom relief. Neil Gehani: They're not going to the root causes of who you are. Whereas psychedelics, the pure classic psychedelics, mushrooms, acid, DMT, um, these, these are what allow you to get to the root causes so you can live a blissful life. And everyone can live a beautifully blissful life, Matt Kosterman: Right. Neil Gehani: that's what we want everyone to have. Neil Gehani: So we Matt Kosterman: they're rewiring. Stuff is getting rewired on that stuff, Neil Gehani: That's right. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: it's a, Neil Gehani: It takes time. It takes time. It's not happens overnight, and you're gonna... It's not like you're gonna some magically get fixed or something like that. So it's not a quick fix, but Matt Kosterman: There, there is, there is no ma-- there is no magic pill. There's no magic pill. 'Cause it Neil Gehani: it is a-- There's no magic quick fix Matt Kosterman: also requires, this conversation with somebody yesterday, like it requires you to, to have the realizations that the medicines help you have, Neil Gehani: right. Matt Kosterman: get the Neil Gehani: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: out of the way, to see the Neil Gehani: right Matt Kosterman: that you need to see. But then it's w- it's on the court. What are you doing with it on the court? What are you doing with it Neil Gehani: That's right. What are you gonna do afterwards? Matt Kosterman: are you Neil Gehani: That's right. Matt Kosterman: How are you gonna do things differently? Neil Gehani: That's right. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: uh Neil Gehani: I think this is the important thing people... That's why I tell people, like, if you're an asshole, it may make you a bigger asshole coming out of it. Matt Kosterman: Mhm. Neil Gehani: to you, you wanna change. Matt Kosterman: Ja Neil Gehani: If you don't wanna change, if you don't wanna look inside yourself, and you don't wanna deal with your own shadows, Matt Kosterman: Right. Neil Gehani: that's on you. Neil Gehani: You g- nobody's gonna fix you Matt Kosterman: right, doesn't matter how many mushroom trips you go on. Neil Gehani: That's right. Doesn't really matter. Matt Kosterman: Right. I Neil Gehani: So you have to first have the inclination that you want to be your authentic self, because all it does is reveals your authentic self. Now, what you do with it is still up to you. So I was being someone else. I wasn't being my true, honest self. Neil Gehani: Now I'm living my authentic self, and that means that I have my boundaries. I know when my boundaries are. I'm able to communicate my boundaries. I care about myself, uh, without sacrificing myself. But I also now give care for others in a way that's more genuine rather than an obligatory way, right? It's now it's... Matt Kosterman: full. Your cup is full, and so Neil Gehani: That's right. Matt Kosterman: you Neil Gehani: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: to give. When your cup is Neil Gehani: That's right. Matt Kosterman: yeah, there's not a lot Neil Gehani: Exactly. Because I'm not, I'm not in the, in this, um, what's the wor- what's the word for it? Sort of, uh, living in the scarcity mindset. Now I live in an abundance mindset because I have infinite capacity for love. I have an infinite capacity for kindness. I have infinite capacity for patience. Neil Gehani: These never run out. We, we all have them, right? The question is whether we wanna tap into them or not, and I'm able to now tap into that. Uh, is it always there? Not always there, you know? Like, Matt Kosterman: You're still human. Neil Gehani: yeah, exactly. I'm still gonna be-- I'm still gonna fuck up from time to time, and, and I do, you know, and it's like, uh, Matt Kosterman: Yeah Neil Gehani: but I try to do, I try to live my life as authentically as I possibly can, and it's much easier when I live an authentic life. Neil Gehani: It's so much easier because I don't have to create this persona for different people. I can just be myself. And, and, and this is it. You get to see, you get to see me for who I am. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: This, right. Take it or leave it. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, Neil, thank you so much for being on the show and, uh, I, I really appreciate it. This was a great conversation. I, your, your, your origin story is fascinating. and I, I'm definitely happy you found psychedelics 'cause that was a lot to carry. Neil Gehani: Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, I'm glad I found it too, and it, uh, it, it found me. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Neil Gehani: so I, I am very grateful for it finding me and, uh, yeah, now I treat it with the tremendous amount of respect and that it deserves, and I think that's, that, that's, that's the important thing. It's very... It-- these medicines are super powerful. Neil Gehani: They are super helpful, but you have to treat it with respect, uh, and, and the dignity it deserves, but treat yourself with the respect and dignity you deserve, you know? And, and just, just go for it. And if you need help, call. We're, we're here for you, so just have people call us. It's totally fine Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Thanks for doing the work. All Neil Gehani: Appreciate it. Thanks, man. Matt Kosterman: All Neil Gehani: Yeah, take care. Matt Kosterman: You too. Bye Neil Gehani: Bye. Bye.