Untitled - May 6, 2026

00:00:00 Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Sustainable Commodities Podcast. I'm Barnaby Patchett, MD of one nine nine agency, a comms agency working in sustainability. And with me is Judith Murdoch from Murdoch Associates. And we work in forest risk commodities. And today on the podcast, we're joined by Alejandro Diaz, landscape finance manager at Common Land, an international NGO based in the Netherlands. Common land pioneers in large scale landscape restoration and unlike many conservation organisations that focus entirely on nature, common land treats the landscape as a as a whole system where nature, people and business must thrive together. Um, we're going to be talking to Ali about some of the biggest themes in sustainable commodities right now farmer finances and regenerative agriculture. So first of all, welcome to the Sustainable Commodities podcast. And, uh, when you start off by just telling us a little bit about yourself. Of course. Thank you so much for the invite and nice to be here. So I'm Ali, I'm, as Barnaby mentioned, landscape finance manager at Common Land. My role within the organization really is to support our partners on the ground to raise financing. This might be private finance, more investments in orientation, or it could be, you know, grant funding from, um, public sources, public financiers and so on. I have a finance background, Mexican, lived in Canada for many years and been in the Netherlands for the last two and a half, uh, with common land. Tomorrow I turn five years. So it's nice to be here in this moment. That's great. And just, uh, obviously common land. Where how did it all start? Yeah. So it's, um, Twelve year old or so. Organization, uh, headquartered in the Netherlands. And so William Ferwerda, um, Cumberland's founder really had this, um, idea or tension while he was working in conservation for many years at, uh, for example, the IUCN as the IUCN Netherlands director. And this tension between process level work or the need for long term funding and funding processes and programs versus project specific funding, um, in the conservation space in general, I think this is one, uh, constraint funders think in short term and very concrete ways. Hey, here's three year funding for an ecological restoration project that maybe requires actually a ten year time frame. And so there's a lot of constraints and difficulties, challenges that arise from that short term nature and project mindset. And so really, the the idea behind common land is to mobilize resources and funders to think differently, to think more holistic. So not project specific, but processes at landscape level and longer term, this recognition that, you know, for restoration to, to really work it, it won't be overnight. It's at least twenty years that, uh, we need to, to think about. Um, and here we are. Really the role of the organization is to support, uh, entities, local organizations from across the world who are leading the restoration of their own landscapes. And we facilitate, we provide some funding, uh, enabling conditions and so on, really technical assistance in nature, um, to, to accelerate those processes. So just one thing that strikes me straight away is obviously it's a very new business. How how big are you in terms of your staff and, and where you actually operate from? So we're relatively small, I would say in, in, in the world of international NGOs, international non-profits. We have a staff of around fifty five people, although it's grown significantly, like I said, five years, it's at least doubled since I joined. Um, that said, it's unlikely. I wouldn't expect that Cumberland would continue to grow and, you know, have more staff because the focus is really on supporting landscapes. And so a lot of what we try to do is channel resources to local teams, as opposed to growing as an organization as at the common land level. Um, so that will continue to be the case. And twelve years right now supporting twenty two landscapes, landscapes, if I'm not mistaken, um, mostly across Europe and Africa. Um, also India, Western Australia, Mexico, and uh, a lot of collaborations, strategic partnerships and so on. But maybe that gives you a little bit of the, the footprint. Great. Yeah. Tell us, tell us some more about, about those projects. You know what, what are you doing? What are you working on right now? Yeah. So really underlying the work of, of common land is the, the four returns framework. So this is really the, the underlying of why common land was set up. Like I said, thinking long term, thinking holistically and supporting local organizations. So for returns, why, um, return of inspiration, uh, social returns, natural returns and financial returns. This approach really is a way to communicate, to think holistically. So if we're thinking landscapes, there's many different activities and and dynamics within it. There might be agricultural land, there might be urban, uh, zones and harder infrastructure, natural areas, natural zones. And so the four returns framework really drives this. It's really guidance, that practical and holistic way for organizations to think holistically. So how do I consider as a farmer the work that might be happening in the protected area that's next to me, and what happens in my farm and how it might affect the town downstream, and how that town might then relate back to the products that are grown and consumed within that particular area, working maybe with government, working with different businesses, farmers, uh, civil society, engaged citizens and so on to, to drive a common vision really, and to, to come up with processes and yeah, um, a vision for that landscape that is beyond maybe a particular commodity or particular business, but thinking. Yeah, what, what serves the, um, the different stakeholders from, from this landscape. It's a broad remit, isn't it? You've, you got to bring together a lot of different, different people, different requirements, different needs. Uh, how do you balance that? So we really, that underlying work is the essence of what a landscape partnership does. So the landscape partnerships in this case are our main partners. So Common land provides funding and support for really, really engaged. We're really partners, um, across these different landscapes to enable these organizations to drive this be the motor, the engine behind the finding of synergies, the bringing stakeholders together, uh, facilitating workshops, you know, facilitating what a common vision might be, bringing additional entities from outside of the landscape, perhaps. And these landscape partnerships, usually, I like to think about them as, um, the entities that are keeping the lights on for the landscape restoration program over twenty years. And maybe there's different organizations, individuals, farmers who are doing the interventions on the ground, let's say, um, wherever that might be, it might be planting trees, removing invasive species, uh, transitioning to regenerative agricultural practices, um, and eco ecotourism and what have you. They're really bringing folks together and it is quite complex. I think the main role of common land is to facilitate these organizations, to do that, to set them up for success, whether it's, you know, again, funding or tools, knowledge exchanges, maybe it's not common land that needs to be there. Maybe it's a different landscape who's done something similar in a way that resonates with another landscape. And so bringing those organizations together and finding developing networks. Um, and, uh, yeah, basically spaces for knowledge exchange, um, and collaboration. So yeah, yeah. So, so one of the things when you're talking is how does somebody come to you or do you go to them? How do you find these projects? Yeah, that's a good question. Over the last twelve years that has changed. Of course. Uh, initially Cumberland started. Um, yeah, more hands on code developing these entities in some cases. Um, maybe it was a group of, of eight to ten farmers who really wanted to do things holistically and transition to AG, but there was no, let's say, uh, structure or legal entity behind it. So how the, how did you know in that particular case, how common land as support, you know, by establishing this entity, by working on the governance together, actually setting up an association, uh, staffing it initially. And then over time, of course, that's, uh, become more of an independent entity or an independent entity itself with six hundred members. But it really started in a very holistic grassroots way. In other cases, it might be entities that have been doing this work for thirty five years. And we're supporting maybe to bring in, uh, the fortunes framework, specifically specific tools, some funding visibility, very important. Um, and the way in which we engage and support is quite different in that case. So either very nascent organizations or very established entities that have been doing this work for a very long time. And the role that we play, of course, differs from from place to place. Increasingly, uh, we get more inbound requests, uh, but we've also changed the way in which we, um, yeah, have prioritized or how, where we work by taking, um, really a regionalized approach. Hence increasingly this focus on maybe particularly Europe and Africa, um, and finding Regional synergies as well, or landscape to landscape work. So going beyond a one landscape type of engagement, but maybe, hey, let's bring in these eight landscapes where in a similar area with similar conditions and maybe core commodities and financing, um, needs. And so it's, it's, yeah, a little bit working from the bottom up and also a little bit of, uh, work of common land and finding these, these organizations. Nice. So you've mentioned finance, obviously in your role. That's, that's very understandable. You mentioned finance a few times. Um, in terms of where's the finance coming from for these projects? Is that the sort of primary need for a lot of these projects? Obviously they need money, but is that the primary need? That's a great question. I wouldn't say so actually maybe in in depends on the status. Right. Um, thinking back, the last year, year and a half, that's been a real difficulty. Oda budgets being slashed again. These are mostly non-profits or associations, entities, grassroots organizations. Um, so a lot of the budget did come from either, um donors. Um, so official development assistance budgets, uh, different governments or philanthropy, but that's increasingly stretched. And so there's a need to look beyond, um, philanthropy and donors and implement these sustainable finance mechanisms, perhaps blended finance, you know, buzzword. Um, and so increasingly, I think beyond the trend of it and bringing in private sector, there's, there's a real need to become resilient and to rely less on donors and philanthropists who, yeah, might have different priorities In very short term. And the way that common land is, is funded is primarily through philanthropy. And we extend that flexibility, which we're very lucky to have, that we get from our funders, which is largely trust based funding to our partners. And that is a core aspect to common land. Were there long term and we're funding processes. We don't want to be funding specific projects. That's one of the the main things a lot of funders have this limitation for whatever reason. In some cases, it's it's an agency problem or even regulatory, uh, constraint because we have that flexibility. We wanted to extend that flexibility to our partners. How, how you mentioned, obviously, it's a challenge moving away from the philanthropy side into more of a blended finance model. Can you explain just a little bit about you hear blended finance quite a lot at the moment. How that works. How does that help? Um, in terms of the financing and also the investors themselves, what do they get from that? Yes. Of course. Uh, I think maybe two sides on the investing side. So working with our partners, I mean, a lot of the difficulty sometimes is, um, small ticket sizes. So maybe you're working, you have an organization that you've set up to commercialize the regenerative product from your landscape and really get a premium for it and keep the value add within the landscape as opposed to, uh, that going to maybe processors, intermediaries and yeah, not staying within. Mhm. And so if that entity gets set up, maybe it starts as a micro enterprise, you know, it's, it's SMEs, it's new. So it might be a startup. You don't have that much of a track record and then you're going out to investors, maybe local financial institutions, maybe impact investors that believe in your holistic approach because you're not only doing the, you know, commercialization, but you're actually working with regenerative producers who are having positive ecological impact across that particular landscape, highly resilient, maybe working on bringing back biodiversity, water benefits and so on. Uh, but it's very difficult to get funding from the traditional sources. And so how do we bring them in? Maybe there's a need for philanthropy to step in with maybe a concessional capital, low cost capital, or a guarantee acting as a safeguard to those investors who are keen. But maybe in the current state, uh, that business might not pass their credit risk assessments. And so it's really a way to, to mobilize resources and find these win win situations where, yeah, the investors can then step in the, the SMEs can get the financing and the donors, funders that are acting as a concessional buffer can also get the impact that they're looking for. And you can cut the risk of that. Exactly. You're either cutting the risk or enhancing the return. We like to more the risk side. Um, but yeah, in some cases both are needed. Right. Or, or looking at maybe outcomes based finance or some kind of interesting capital capital stack that would facilitate the participation of these investors who are also constrained. If you're a financial institution, you also have regulatory requirements to adhere to. You can't take high risk with a the deposit of your, uh, yeah, clients. And so the way in which you engage these SMEs, yeah. Differs. So we're trying to figure out ways to be a little more creative to, to have that financing, uh, flow and maybe eventually that is not needed. And it might even be a perceived risk thing. Maybe it's not even a, the actual risk, but there's little understanding of region or other businesses that are participating in these more holistic processes. And so there's also an element of, uh, piloting and proof of concept. So what does success look like, say, in a project in, in Europe? Um, what would, what, what would you say are the key KPIs if you like, for success? Yeah, it's a good, good question. Um, maybe nice to bring in a concrete example. So for instance, in south eastern Spain in the Altiplano is the barrio. We've been supporting Al Bilal association for since the beginning, about ten years or so. At this point, um, and it's, it's quite interesting because this is the organization that started, as, you know, eight farmers coming together and now there's six hundred plus members with four hundred plus farmers across a million hectare area that is the largest producing area of rainfed almond and also significant, uh, producing area of olive oil. Um, and again, this is mostly rain fed some irrigated lands, but um, yeah, it's, it's a very large complex, um, area. And so this entity started as, uh, really supporting capacity strengthening workshops around what is region? Argh! Uh. How can you implement these different practices? Uh, having a demo farm where farmers can come in and say, okay, this is how you've implemented it. What have what have been the results? So it, it is not common land from Amsterdam or another entity saying something. It's really farmers from that specific landscape who've been implementing these practices for some time. Showing results in that particular area. Uh, which yeah, goes significantly further in convincing a farmer to, to take this risk. Because at the end of the day, it's a risk to transition from what you know, and the way in which you've been managing that land to say, hey, let me actually do this thing that people are talking about that I heard of, and it might have biodiversity benefits and help me capture water and be more resilient, but none of my neighbors are doing it. And as far as I can see, so it's convincing. So is that in terms of your four returns framework, that's the inspiration return to some degree. Definitely facilitating, um, this hope element and, and connection to the landscape. So how do you convince farmers not only to transition, but to stay? Because there's also a de-population, um, problem when um, largely eroded agricultural lands are no longer highly productive or being able to sustain um a family. Um it's a livelihood problem as well. And so farmers or even um um yeah. How, what farmers would young people see as interesting what to do. Right. Great. If you want to go into the city. But if you want to stay and be a farmer and continue in that land that your family has held for many years, then yeah, you should be able to, to do that and to get the support that you need to, to, to continue. Um, and so beyond the, for example, workshops at farm level, there's also a lot of work with kids and education in schools and bringing them to workshops and planting trees in a festival format, uh, highlighting the benefits of the different practices. Hey, look at all these butterflies that have come back because we planted aromatics in this, you know, intercropping system together with the pistachio trees and the almond trees. So it's bringing that sense of connection and, and hope and tie back to and pride back to, to this, this, uh, work. It's very dignified work. That's such a fantastic point. I visited Spain recently, and one of the biggest messages I heard was, well, the young don't want to stay in farming. And I think that is inspirational, isn't it? Because it's almost making it, making it interesting and making it a business case. It's putting an extra level of sophistication to it. Um, which is just, I just think is so important because without, without young people taking over farms or family farms, then this, this is how it all dies out. It's a global problem as well. Yeah, it is totally a global problem. I mean, again, I just that's a, if you like a European example. What about Africa then? Is it is it similar or is it completely different in Africa in the projects that you have? I think the the challenges are relatively similar. Um, it really depends, of course, with because we're working at landscape level, we engage different types of stakeholders. So there might be, you know, small holders, uh, who are maybe beginning to transition and maybe a collective scheme and supporting. Um, yeah, the establishment and, and workshops and training and so on. Um, which is critical for the resilience of, again, that, that landscape. But as part of that also work, we might be collaborating with maybe a bigger producing organization who holds thousand hectares. Um, and how does that shift it happen in very different ways. But what we try to bring is this message of acting in a holistic way. So wherever, so regardless of whether you're working in five, To five ten hectares or a thousand. How do you bring in? Um. Yeah. This perspective of thinking about the ecological restoration and the impact that your farm is having downstream, uh, in the river that or in that your in that catchment area that is the source of water for Andean people downstream, um, bringing in different voices, you know, um, bringing them together as well. So how do you facilitate these spaces so that organizations can even find each other and organizations, but individuals because they might be neighbors, but maybe they're not speaking about this. Uh, so the landscape partnerships play that, play that role going back to, to the farmer side of things. I mean, um, we're, we're both, uh, in Yorkshire and know quite a lot of farmers. And I think this is true probably worldwide. Farmers are quite conservative and resistance to, uh, to change in some, some areas, you know, when a farmer asks you what's in it for me, will I make more money? The kind of tangibles that a lot of them probably think in. What do you tell them? I think this is a very tricky question because of from sitting here, my risk perception of that transition is I cannot relate to it. And so we would never say, yes, you will make more money and you should transition. We would say, hey, well, of course it's context specific. Here are some examples of what maybe your neighbor has done and how that what the result has been. And by the way, we are helping to set up this business, for example, in the example in Altiplano, there's a company that's called Almendra, which is farmer owned. Um, and they really try to bring a premium to product that is regenerative. So if you have regenerative elements certified, you can sell at three, five, seven percent more than the organic price in the market. And so, hey, by the way, there's, you know, results here. You can see that Mendoza is doing well growing and providing a premium. Oh, and by the way, has a machinery bank and you don't need to invest in your own tractor with this new piece of equipment to do this type of of agriculture. But Bilal will lend it to you for a very little money. And you can start and hey, start maybe in five percent of your of your farm, not, uh, one hundred percent overnight. And so it's a really long term process and showing different ways of, um, of doing it and the results as opposed to saying, hey, this is the solution and you should, uh, transition all of it at once now. Um, so that it's a hard sell and it's a recognition of the risk profile, right? It's, it's livelihoods and it's, um, yeah, it's important to, to be aware of that. Um, while on the other side. Yeah, helping with the solutions. Uh, so I'll be doing an amazing job on capacity strengthening and workshops and machinery. And all men are looking for buyers, uh, for these elements that will enable them to provide that premium. Because at the end of the day, that is also, again, livelihoods. So beyond maybe even the premium, how do we facilitate, uh, financial institutions to give flexible funding to all madrasa for working capital solution that will enable them to pay the farmers early. Yeah. It's really yeah, it's really a fascinating concept. And I, I guess for me, what what you're talking about is this thing of hope. That's what's striking me. I mean, today, with all of what's going on in the world, what would you see as your biggest priority? And I'm thinking of the, um, of the for returns network, particularly obviously inspiration and hope. But would you put hope against soil and water? I was just going to pick those three points out because you know, what would you put in front. Uh, looking after the soil water is something you've mentioned quite a lot. Or would you see it as hope in this, this sort of drive for hope and purpose? What would you you see as the priorities in a project landscape piece of work? Yeah, it's an interesting question. I think most of commandant would agree or I think. But we see hope and again, return of inspiration as the driver behind the other returns and let's say more foundational if you're, you know, tunnel vision focused on soil, maybe you'd have more better benefits on soil, but you might lose the social well-being and social benefits and connection to the landscape or again, livelihoods, right. So the financial component of it and, or, you know, water critical. But if you don't have an engaged, uh, network of let's stick to the example of farmers, but it could be really anyone, citizens in that particular area that maybe will last for a few years. But think generational in generational terms, is that going to last for when the next those kids, uh, from that, uh, farming family will take over and, you know, twenty, forty years from now. So it's bringing back again hope, uh, connection to the landscape, thinking long term and building these, uh, communities. And, and it's not common land doing that, but it's really being in how the landscape partnerships are engaging, uh, all these different stakeholders from, from landscape bringing them together. So to, to maintain that long term approach, the sustainable long term approach. Um, you need that hope and that inspiration. That's the, that's the thing that carries it on over time. The real progress can be made. But I would say so. And even if you wanted to frame it in, let's say, economic terms, like what is that benefit? I mean, it's lower risk So long term there's way more resilience. It's stickier. So these practices will last, will be there for longer. Uh, word of mouth will be significantly bigger. So it yeah, we see that as, uh, as something that just makes sense even from a numbers point of view. Yeah, I think I was just, I'm gonna ask this question is Mark. Go for it. Yeah. Um, it's this idea of, of the length of the project as well that fascinates me because we see regenerative agriculture or in particular, I was reading something about someone who was buying vast amounts of land and, you know, putting it back to forest and, you know, making it so that it could never be legally touched. I mean, where would you see, uh, common land in, say, fifty or one hundred years? What's your, what's your vision for the future? Yeah. Good question. My, my, my gut reaction is common and shouldn't have to exist. Um, I think for most nonprofits, um, that should really be the, the goal that you've done the work so well that there's no more need for, for you as an entity. So if we think fifty one hundred years, hopefully all of these organizations want are independent, uh, sustainable and independent in terms of funding, I mean, because they're already independent and locally led, but, uh, not really needing common land to, to be there or to facilitate these spaces. It's, it's embedded in terms of the way that they, how they work, how philanthropy is work is, is funding or not even philanthropy, but also, um, public entities, again, more process, uh, um, thinking longer term, not project specific and facilitating the yeah, the resilience, long term resilience of, of, uh, of the landscape. So hopefully common land can be a nice case study. Mhm. So beside money, what's the biggest hurdle preventing, you know, going back to the, the regenerative farming, what's the biggest hurdle preventing farmers from going regenerative right now apart from money? Yeah, I think evidence there's a lot of research and development that that needs to happen. Uh, and building again, examples, results really documenting that really well, um, showing it. So again, we were going, we were speaking about this, for example, a demo farm, right? First before putting some kind of evidence base or report around outcomes, need to try things out in whatever context you're in and make a lot of mistakes. I would suggest that the the grant funding and yeah, this flexible capital goes into that. Let's make a lot of mistakes. Let's see what works, what doesn't work, and present it in very clear terms and bring people and show them, okay, this is what happened in this particular context. And we think that this is why, um, and over the course of time that can lead to standards being developed. So what this region actually mean, and in that particular context, it's always needs to be, uh, localized, but you may then develop a certification scheme, right? And say with a high level of confidence that these practices might lead to these results and, uh, have really good strong processes when it comes to, um, yeah, the standards, the tracking, the third party validation and so on. Because if you have that certification in place, then maybe the market will really compensate for it. Right now that's a big difficulty. I think there's the narrative is behind it, but the pricing hasn't really caught up. Um, and on the one hand, I, I understand that, right? If you're talking to, uh, an intermediary or corporate, but we're hoping that that, that value stays within that landscape with, with the farmers and with the local businesses. And so facilitating this system. And we think that landscape level or landscape scale is, is the right scale, because there's this similarity in the enough similarity from farm to farm that you can with some degree of confidence, say that, uh, yeah, we should implement these types of practices. So yeah, research and development leading to system measures like certifications that can then be implemented across the board, invest in making the mistakes so other people don't have to. Yeah. Take the risk away from from, uh, farmers. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely, I think that that is the thing, isn't it is so many people, um, have gone to big, big production, not caring about the land, not, uh, not investing in the land or people. And it's actually just bringing, bringing everybody back. One of the things that we've, we were talking about earlier was, um, before we started the podcast was that this is very much a business to business audience, but how do you think, uh, the messaging is transferable to consumers? I mean, do you think consumers are interested in this type of work? I very much think so. And because it's how you're communicating, right. But it goes back to how is land being managed? What is it being mined and the extractive or are you bringing life back into it, whether it's then to the soil or biodiversity in farms and around the farms. Uh, water quality and water. I think we should all be thinking about and, uh, and concerned with and the resilience of, of local communities. It impacts everyone. It's just how we communicate it. Um, and depending on maybe the crop or, or commodities, several commodities podcast, you know, uh, you might maybe focus on different aspects for almonds. Maybe that's water because there's this narrative that, uh, almond, uh, production takes up a lot of water, but here we're talking about rain fed almonds in Spain. There is no irrigation. Even most of this. So let's, you know, communicate that and change the narrative and then not have this association for maybe these elements specifically. So then there's a really important part of traceability. And for, yeah, whoever's selling this, whether it's the retailers in the end or corporates marketing, it can, can communicate this. But having supported that transition process and having supported the establishment of the certification and the processes and the mistakes being made and funding where it's needed, not only sustainable procurement, but what has come behind it. And, and the organizations driving these, these efforts. And if you have that, that's where the local, mostly local financial institutions should be acting. They already have the relationships with with farmers. And they can be. Yeah. Significant. Uh, uh, Catalyzers for for transition. Um, yeah. Relying on having, yeah, an established off taker and a certification backing those processes that you want to implement and your results that are being, uh, measured and not only on the farm level, but at landscape level. Yeah. I love the phrase, uh, rain fed. Um, that's, that's really interesting because it's, again, understanding almonds are a very thirsty crop. So, and I think, yeah, that is such a, a strong consumer message because I think, I think definitely consumers would see some negative. So yeah, a lovely phrase. It's where you get a lot of the, the misconceptions though, isn't it, with, with commodities. I mean, we're lots of our works in palm oil. So you can imagine the level of misconception and trying to, uh, trying to differentiate sustainable palm oil from palm oils, history and conventional palm. You mentioned the rain, one that could apply to, you know, rain fed beef like cattle, uh, often blamed obviously for a lot of water use. But certainly in the UK, most of that comes from the sky. And so the water issues are associated in some regions. It just shows that the necessity of that localised approach again exactly need. So, uh, moving, moving on to, to kind of um, outside the landscapes themselves, but potentially the, the corporates that are going to be purchasing some of the regenerative products coming from these, these places. You know, if a big food company was listening now and wanted to be involved or to support their farmers better or to, to do something to, to get more regenerative, um, food into their, into their supply chains. What's the first thing they should do? Well, number one, I would say. Have a really good mechanism to be able to to listen to your suppliers at farm level and throughout the value chain intermediaries as well. And yeah, hear what they need to transition. If you're really committed as a corporate to support these efforts, then let's set up processes that allow you to, to listen and to absorb and react to what's being asked. Um, of course, from common land, we think in landscape scale, we would yeah, really suggest that, uh, it goes beyond the ag component and farm level work and transition finance maybe, but that support the landscape partnerships who are driving, you know, hope and inspiration for that particular area. You can frame it as a risk point, right? Uh, you want to lower the risk of your supply chain and have high resilience. Let's invest in these types of organizations who are really good at doing this work and who really know that area. And again, just to make it concrete. Having supported with process level funding at an organizational level, these organizations can then be the ones designing and setting up certification schemes relevant for that area. That's what happened with with Al Bilal and now the certification region organic certification. That is, uh, basically, um, uh, implemented by, uh, the Andalusian Agroecology Center who already does organic certifications can really be a, uh, a catalyzer. But that certification may not have happened with, without the very flexible funding from donors and philanthropy. But the scale is not there. The corporates have that scale and reach. So imagine that all over the place who are really supporting capacity strengthening efforts, workshops. Yeah. Driving also examples, making mistakes and then developing certifications like that could really be a game changer. And SB ten and TNF d also is talking about landscape engagement work. This this is landscape engagement work thinking holistically, not, uh, necessarily limited to a sustainable procurement, uh, project. MM. Great. Yeah. I think that sounds like a, uh, yeah, a good place to, to wrap things up. Thank you very much for joining us on the Sustainable Commodities podcast. And thank you very much to everyone for listening. Join us next time. Thanks so much. Bye bye.