de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 0:00 This is Episode 29 of Ethics and Culture Cast from the de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture. Welcome to Episode 29 of Ethics and Culture Cast. I'm Ken Hallenius, the communications specialist at the de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture at the University of Notre Dame. In this episode, we chat with Obianuju Ekeocha, a biomedical scientist and the president of Culture of Life Africa, an initiative dedicated to promotion and defense of the sanctity of life. Let's sit down with Obianuju for this excellent conversation. Well Uju, thank you very much for coming to be with us today. Obianuju Ekeocha 0:59 Thank you, Ken. I'm very grateful for being on your show. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 1:02 And welcome back to Notre Dame because you've been here before, even with the the Center for Ethics and Culture. Obianuju Ekeocha 1:07 Absolutely. I was here back I think in 2015. And I was very fortunate to have been part of the class 2015 of the Vita Institute was amazing. Had a great time. And I'm glad to be back at Notre Dame. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 1:20 Wonderful. Well, welcome home. Obianuju Ekeocha 1:23 Thank you. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 1:24 So tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from? Where do you live now? And, and, you know, what did you study all these sorts of things. Give us a bit of a bio. Obianuju Ekeocha 1:33 Great. So I was born and raised in Nigeria, and the sixth child of my parents, and of course, there are six of us. So I'm the youngest of six children, and went to a university in Nigeria, studied microbiology out there at University of Nigeria Nsukka, and started working as a laboratory scientist at the University of Nigeria teaching hospital. Couple of years later, I decided to do my masters. I went out to the UK at that point, I emigrated to the UK, where I started studying biomedical science at the University of East London. And afterwards, I got a job as a biomedical scientist. And I've been in the in the UK ever since. And this was back in 2006. So I have been now in, away from my country for about 13 years. But having said that, I still get to go back to Nigeria every year and sometimes even more than once a year because my parents are in Nigeria. A lot of my friends are there. Of course, I have a lot of cousins, aunties and uncles. Oh, nice, big African family. And I've been, I've been I've been doing that all these years. So it's been great. But also, you know, in the last couple of years too, I took on pro-life work. This was a, I took on pro-life work in 2012. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 2:50 Well tell us a bit about that. Obianuju Ekeocha 2:51 Sure. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 2:51 How did you get involved? Obianuju Ekeocha 2:52 So I was, as I had said earlier, pursuing this science career, this biomedical science career that I felt, Oh, this is so great. And I was happy, minding my business. But then, but then one day, I just happened to be watching news. And I saw Melinda Gates, the wife of Bill Gates, talking about Africa. And because particularly she was talking about Africa, I was interested in this interview she was having and I listened closely to it. So it happened to be at the very time when she was raising about $5 billion back in 2012, to do her family summit and bringing contraceptives to Africa, but not just African nations. She was framing it at a time as a developing countries, she said it was 69 poorest countries in the world, where women had what she was calling the 'unmet need for contraceptives and family planning.' So the more I listened to her speak about the $5 billion project, the more as an African, the more I was confused as to why she wasn't going to use that money for education, or for real health care that women need. And what I knew growing up in Africa and being born and raised in Africa, I felt this was a huge waste of money. But not only that, I felt that she was bringing in a new brand of population control that we had never seen before. And that is population control that is so slickly wrapped, that is difficult to actually pinpoint that she's you know, identify for what it really is. So I wrote immediately I said, I'm going to write down points why she shouldn't do this, why this is such a terrible idea from an African perspective. And as I wrote it down, it became longer and longer and longer. I spent five hours on it as God will have it. And then it became what eventually was known as the 'open letter to Melinda Gates.' So I sent it out to someone at EWTN. And who at the time I didn't know was going to even read it and that was Teresa Tomeo, who does a Catholic Connection leader at ETWN. And Teresa opened the email, she read it, she read, she decided to read it on air and as they say the rest of history. 'Cause the moment she read it on her show, people heard it, someone published it, it went out and it went viral. It became this viral phenomenon back in 2012. The Vatican, someone at the Vatican saw it at the Pontifical Council for the Laity, the Vatican took it up, they translated it and published it on their website. And of course, that then, you know, went bigger and bigger. And everybody was then asking Who is this person? You know, why has she written this? Can she tell us more? So it was a bit negative reaction, but mostly positive reaction. But the more people read it, the more I realized people are hungry, or curious, at least to know about what the Africans think, or how the Africans see these kinds of things. Because, of course, for many years, we've been hearing about Africa, family planning this, that and the other, population control, abortion. But I think at that point in time was, it was new for people, in a way, to hear it coming from an African or to hear what an African thinks from an African perspective, because this letter was quite long. And I tried to make my points and I tried to quote different things. And the reasons why I'm trying to give reasons why I thought, you know, this was, this was not okay for, for these societies across the continent of Africa. So that was how I really got into the pro-life work. And people were asking me to come defend my point. Defend the open letter. And then I got speaking with the, with the African bishops, and then I started doing some work, which we'll talk about in a little bit. But I got more and more involved into it to the point where I now spend a lot of time you know, thinking about these issues, writing about them, reading more, and trying to find out exactly what happens on the international scene between donors, whether it's a donor nation, so in a whole country, or whether it's a philanthropist, like Melinda Gates, or even whether it's an NGO or an institution like the United Nations, so I started taking a closer look at it. And the more I looked at it, I then realized that Melinda Gates was, yes, what she was doing was quite serious. But she wasn't the only one doing that. She was just the most obvious one to me at a time. But there is a huge movement of international community that is acting towards Africa in such a way that I think requires attention that it just doesn't get. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 7:31 Wow. Well, now, kind of after that, going viral, as you mentioned, and you established an organization called Culture of Life Africa. So tell us a bit about Culture of Life Africa. What, what are the, you know, challenges that that you work on? And what does, kind of the day-to-day life of the organization look like? Obianuju Ekeocha 7:54 Right. So Culture of Life Africa, I had to found the organization, about six months after letter went viral. But because all this, there was so much demand, and there was so much going up and down. And I needed a platform without having to take up a job in some pro-life organization, because I still had my science career. So I wanted a bit more freedom. So I started the organization, what the organization really is about is all these things that I've been explaining is this bigger picture, of which Melinda Gates, of course, is symbolic, or representative. Right? So this is the bigger picture about how the donors and how humanitarian aid as a thing, or as a, as an industry, if you like, or a sector, and how it affects African nations, but also even beyond Africa, the developing world. What happens within those relationships? So Culture of Life Africa, is really about monitoring all of that. So it's pro-life work, but not in a way that the regular or average pro-life person would think about it. Of course, I'm very much interested to know what goes on with regards to abortion, what happens with regards to contraception, what demands they're making or not. What happens with regard to, you know, sexuality issues, especially towards these cultures that are more much more traditional, and the cultures that are insistent on their views and values, and they're much more family oriented, and faith oriented even in in so many ways. So, Culture of Life Africa delves into that, tries to get information research, you know, the data from like United Nations and agencies and organizations, and even trying to go deeper into the archives of these donors to try to establish exactly what is going on without being conspiracy theorist about it. For, for years, yes, I had been hearing the little rumblings about, oh, yeah, they hate Africans. Oh, yeah, they tried to wipe out Africa, you know, we've had all this. But I am a scientist and coming even from a scientific background, I am very much, very much in love with data. I don't know if I can put it that way. But I love to use data. And I love to, I love to show links, real links, that that are concrete. So yes, we start we always start off with a theory. But then inside, in the world of science, we go from theory, to you experiment, you research you do whatever has to be done to establish for sure that these things are happening. So I use the same methods or the same principles to expose things and to show. So that's what Culture of Life Africa does. The challenges that we are facing, of course, it's the international community is that what we've always thought was conspiracy theory, it really isn't. It, there is a very, very serious, serious, encroachment going on, encroachment in culture, encroachment in ideology, encroachment that there is so much going on between the West, Western standard for the donors, and the developing countries, or African nations, or even in some cases, as I've spoken to many people from Latin America and the Latin American countries. So the challenges that we are facing is to, is how to, one how to track down some of these things really happening, and how to establish it and how to take it out and expose it to the world. Because it's one thing to discover something or find out that this is actually true, this is happening there is someone running some kind of population control agenda. And they are running it almost in a very, in a very sleek and sophisticated way that. You know, Melinda Gates, in one of her TED Talks talked about how she wants to make family planning like to be like Coca Cola, you know, in the way Coca Cola has been so universalized that it is accepted in every country, every continent, she wants to spread that message through the same mechanisms. So when you listen to that sort of thing closely, you find out this woman is not just making a joke, she's talking about higher strategies. She's talking about the strategy being used by multibillion dollar organization. And because she is a multi billionaire herself, she can do just that. So my work through Culture of Life Africa is to show this to the world that it is happening. So media, writing, I've written a book called "Target Africa." I've made a small documentary called "Strings Attached." So just trying to put it out there, and my day to day life. To be honest with you, Culture of Life Africa is such a small organization, I don't have the we know we don't have funding, so there is no way to get that. But from time to time when I go to African nations, we get volunteers to do things. So it's it's almost like from project to project phases. So at some point there are people helping, working with me to do this through Culture of Life Africa some other times is just one woman walking from her computer sitting in her kitchen, in the UK and then doing that. But behind all of that I still have the backdrop which is my day-to-day job as a scientist so I started of pro-life work six years ago, but I still have to work full time as a biomedical scientist. So I've tried to have the two lives. And somehow it has worked so far. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 13:23 When do you even sleep? Obianuju Ekeocha 13:28 That's a great question, Ken. I do sleep but I because I my work as a scientist because of how I've had to take on so much now doing both pro-life work as well as carrying on with my kind of science career. I've taken on a night shift contract. So so at night, I get to work in in the science field, I get to work in my lab, and it's me and my blood samples all night. Twelve hours. And then even when I come off in the morning I grab some hours of sleep and try to regulate things so that I'm not sleep deprived, because we do need to take care of ourselves as well to make sure that we are battle ready at all times for all this. Because much of this, especially in the pro-life arena is a battle. And then I get to work. You know, I get to work on my day off, or the hours, the few hours that I have. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 14:20 Or travel across the pond. Obianuju Ekeocha 14:21 Or when I'm traveling, yeah, exactly. I do. I do a lot of travel every year about 100,000 miles a year, going from country to country. I go from the UK where I live to African countries. And then many times I come across this way as well to America or Canada. I've done quite a bit in Canada. The Parliament in Canada has been very good to me, the pro-life MP. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 14:46 Sure, sure, Obianuju Ekeocha 14:47 Not Trudeau. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 14:48 Not all of them. Obianuju Ekeocha 14:50 But I've had some pro-life MPs been very supportive. The documentary that I mentioned "Strings Attached" was actually for the first time ever screened, had its premiere at the Canadian Parliament. So right there on Parliament Hill. Yes, that was last year. So the Canadian Parliament, parliamentarians who are pro-life had been very good and accommodating and supportive. And they've listened each time I've come to complain. So I do go to Canada. And in addition to that, I go to other European countries as well. So recently, I was at the EU Parliament, I spoke about last last week as we got the EU parliament at an ethics and human dignity event, where I was one of two panelists, and that was great that they also the MPs who were there who are pro-life, pro family, they were very good, very attentive to what I had to say. And it was, it was very well received what I had to say. So that's that, for me, that's all very satisfying. Yeah. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 15:47 Now, we mentioned we talked a kind of offline you were describing when you were getting started in your work, you reached out to and found great success in working with the bishops and kind of working through the kind of personal contacts within the hierarchy of the Church. Why are the bishops of Africa such a strong and effective resource for your pro life work? Obianuju Ekeocha 16:10 Right, so the Church in Africa is a network as well. So the Church in Africa, in so many ways, I think gives us a little bit of vision of what the church may have been like, many centuries ago, because if you come to think of it, the Church in Africa is only about 100 years old, little over 100, in some places a little under 100 years old. So some places, the Church is only about 90 years old, you know, de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 16:40 Certainly in sub-Saharan Africa, right? Obianuju Ekeocha 16:42 Absolutely. So this in a sub-Saharan African region. Of course, I'm not speaking of where St. Augustine came from! We have to make it clear you know, Carthage, and all of that all of those areas in the northern part of Africa. No, I'm speaking about the sub-Saharan Africa. Sure, when the Irish missionaries, mostly Irish missionaries, came to evangelize those that was only in the 1920s. I mean, my grandparents got baptized October of 1926. And they were like one of the first few in my village, who who got baptized. So you can imagine it's not even 100 years yet, that the Gospel came to us. So in in some parts of sub-Saharan African region. So in many ways, today, the Church is still so young, and so vibrant, vibrant, yeah, and so vital, and vibrant. So the Church in Africa has this quality that of course, yes, number one, it is about the gospel, the Church's mission is about spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ, spreading the word of God, spreading the teachings of the Church, which of course, is the teachings of Christ. But there is another level, a secondary level to the work of the Church in Africa. And that is, they are there as carers, they are there as educators, the African Catholic Church, particularly is educating more children in Africa than anybody could imagine. With regards to the percentage, we own many, many schools in most of the countries, the hospitals as well, the health care system, the Catholic Church in Africa would would walk away from health care, I think everything will crumble, because in some African countries, there are places where the Catholic hospitals make up about 40%, or 50% of all hospitals in the country. And there are some parts of even the health care system, like HIV care where the Church is providing an overwhelming a huge part of it, or huge chunk of it much more than half of it, than, than the government side of things. So the Church forms a second, secondary layer of mission, which is about caring about humanity, and the people in Africa, doesn't matter whether they're Catholics or not. And as a result of this role, that the result of this second layer of mission, that means that the Church is inevitably in a position to, to also be a channel to spread messages. You know, if it's a good message, even if it's not necessarily a Christian message, if you like, because I tell my friends, yes, I am pro-life partly because I'm Christian, but not just that. It's the message for everyone I will. If I met someone who wasn't Christian, today, I'm still very eager to share with them, this pro-life message. So the church is a fantastic, fantastic channel or network for that. But because also, thank God, the church is one and universal, there are Catholic Dioceses in South Africa that are linked and Catholic Bishops in South Africa linked all the way to bishops in West Africa. You know, in East Africa, the church is one. So when I started my pro-life work, the first place that I was led to the first place that where I had the most success, what even I I would credit for the great success of the work is the fact that I went through bishops that I knew, and the bishops that I knew introduced me to their friends, their brother bishops, in other countries, and you know, in other parts of Africa, where otherwise I would not have had an entrance to. So they then through through those connections or those networks, we were able to start off at least things like pro-life, pro-life conferences that would have had not been seen in some of the parts of Africa, you know, where I had what was working, pro-life marches that we had, we had in several countries. We were taking the messages to schools that were bringing people together through the the network of the church, beyond the church as a family. So they were reaching out to other people in their communities. I went to one country, which was quite spectacular Sierra Leone, where there are only four Catholic Dioceses, so in other words four Catholic Bishops. But the bishops organized for me to have town halls in the four dioceses while I was there. So when I went to those town halls, the most surprising thing to me was that there were so many Muslims at these, these town halls, because it's a very, very Muslim country. And that's why, there's only four Dioceses. It's, I think, a 70% Muslim country. So when I went to these town halls, they were like more Muslims than Catholics and other Christians. But the bishops, what the bishops did was that the bishop sent out messages to the to the leaders of these, you know, the mosques and the Imams and everybody and said, we're having of this pro-life message, and we need you to come listen. So the town halls were amazing and fantastic, because at the time, there were politicians within the Parliament of Sierra Leone, that were pushing an abortion bill, that the people at the grassroots didn't like. So there was such a mobilization, mind you with something that started by me making a phone call to the to the president of the Catholic Bishops conference, but I was able to reach much more much of a bigger part of the society than the Catholics because the Muslims took it up as well. And the, you know, they were able to push back that we are not to allow this to happen had the pro-life bill pass through successfully. I mean, the bill has passed but the president simply refused to sign it. So it just stayed there dormant and they still don't have legal abortion. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 22:25 Wow. Well, can you tell us a bit about what it's like to be a pro-life advocate, not merely in Nigeria, but to speak really, as an African? Is there, is there truly an understanding of family values that are shared across a continent as diverse in language and ethnicity and culture as Africa is? Obianuju Ekeocha 22:49 Absolutely. So Africa, One can even glean from what I'm saying. Africa is very diverse, really, really diverse. And not the way in the west when they talk of diversity, you know, they talk about race and all of that. No, Africa is truly diverse, even though Yes, majority blacks, but we still see our diversity. Because we have many languages, many ethnicities, there in even in Nigeria alone, we have so many tribes, you know, and then you go across to other neighboring countries, sometimes they speak different languages, all going back to the colonial days. So some parts of Africa, English is predominantly the language, the common language spoken, because we always have our own native tongue and native language, from our tribes and groups. But we have English in certain many, many parts of Africa. We also have French spoken in many, many parts of Africa, Francophone African countries. But then in a few countries, you do have Portuguese being spoken in a country like Angola, you in one or two countries, you do have Spanish being spoken. So it all is linked to the colonial days. So as a result, Africa, is diverse. But as an African person, as a Nigerian woman, I love to go beyond the borders of my country, reaching out to other African countries, because I also have realized, you know, over the years that the one thing that the Africans we are attracted to is this idea of pan-Africanism, we still I don't know that we have achieved it. But there is such a love or a strong identity that Africans carry that even when I see an Ethiopian or Kenyan, somewhere in America here, they say, my my sister, and if I, you know and I say my brother, right, so even the west, we're from countries so far apart, even though in some cases, we speak different languages, I might see someone from Togo, and I say, Well, my brother, my sister, right, and they will, they will feel the same way. So even though they're there are these things that make it a little bit difficult for communication, like language barriers, but we there is such an identity of, sort of an attraction towards this pan-Africanism, that the African nations are one in many ways. However, talking about the values that you talked about that whether there are, there are things that we hold in common for sure, there are things we hold in common, our customs are different, our tribes are different, even within Nigeria, their customs, and, you know, cultures that we have, and traditions that we have that a Yoruba person, for example, which is another tribe in Nigeria, than mine the Igbo tribe, there are things that are different, completely different. Our own native languages are completely different and unrelated. But the one thing that all these tribes across the African continent hold together, that you see common thread is something like the value of human life, the sanctity of human life, the belief in bloodlines, right. So we believe so much in bloodlines like the the bloodlines hold us together with the generations past the present generation, the generations coming in the future. The reason I bring up bloodlines is that this strong belief of bloodlines no matter the tribe or ethnic group within the African continent, this belief then, is completely opposed to abortion, whether it sets out to be opposed to abortion or not, but abortion strikes right at the heart of our bloodlines. You abort a child, you've not only avoided a child, you have actually killed off a part of a bloodline, which links a family or a family member to the generations past. And so I think and I believe strongly from everything I have seen across the continent, that our culture and our tradition is not compatible in any way with abortion. So abortion, it's not like people don't know what abortion is in African countries or that even that people don't do abortions. People do abortion, there are doctors who are making money doing abortions legally and illegally in countries. It depends on which country they are. But the one thing that the society across the different African countries, what they believe in, or where they stand, is that they would reject it strongly and hold it up as a vice. It's a vice. So it's people are doing a lot of terrible things in different countries. There is crime, of course, where there is into that where there's intense poverty, there's crime, yes, that happens in every country. You know, in communities where there's more poverty, there's higher crime, that can be proven. But Africa is like that, as well. A lot of illegal things happening in different sectors, in different ways, lots of corruption. But the African people, I believe, at least from what I have seen traveling to different countries that African people still want to know, the line and the difference between what is illegal and wrong. And what is right and just. So somebody, I'm going to paraphrase now a quote from a man who is actually American, but I believe it, what he said applies so perfectly to the African nations. And this is Dennis Prager, who said at one point in time that--and I need to get this right--he said that there is hope for a country when its people do wrong, even even if the people are doing wrong, even if the people are going out of their way and committing crimes and doing these evil things, there's still hope, because there is hope that one day, they will rethink, they will convert, they will revert and go back to what is right. But there is no hope for a nation that then decides they are going to redefine evil to mean good, because in that way, there is absolutely no reference point. There is no place to go from there. So I think that's what pretty much where a lot of African countries are that and that's this, the general sentiment is that yes, people hate abortion and have rejected abortion. And anytime you give African nations a chance, they will reject abortion overwhelmingly, and then people come from the United Nations and tell us, oh, but you guys are still having illegal abortions. And they publish all these things, and say, oh, there's this million number of million illegal abortions going on in Africa. So therefore, abortion should be legalized. But the general sentiment is that there is the people will know that there will be there is still hope. There is still hope that one day, we will have a better system that meets women at the point of the need, there will be a system where women are embraced when they are in crisis situation. There will be a better system where our health care is good enough for women to have the confidence, you know, to go through pregnancy know that there is there is not a problem. Yes. So there are all these things in we know that one day we will come to that point where those things are in place. But we will be completely hopeless people if anybody then comes in to redefine what we know is wrong. And tell us it's no longer wrong it's right. So that's where we stand. And that's where I think the common sentiment across the continent, I can confidently say that's where we all stand on this. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 30:14 Wow. Well, you've kind of hinted at the kind of my last question that is, do you see signs of hope in your work? Obianuju Ekeocha 30:22 Yes, I see a lot of hope. I see I see a lot of hope. Because, you know, speaking to so many people in Africa and out of Africa. I know that, that the African people don't want abortion, and somebody would say, oh, but what about these women online who are Africans and they say they want to but. Of course, you will find a small minority of people who are given a lot of platform and they keep saying they want abortion and all that. But anytime the chance is given, anytime the opportunity is given the African people will reject abortion, they have done it in many countries. They always reject, reject, reject abortion. So that's one one side of the hope that I have. But then the other side of this is that a lot of the pressure that we are now going through if you go to any African country, wherever there is a fight, what quote unquote, fight for abortion rights, or they're coming towards an abortion bill. Anytime you see it happening, you look deeper into it, you find out that there is outside influence. So it even though Yes, it's depressing for me to see. And it's frustrating for me to see that I come in and I'm going through things in an African country, and you find out a some British organization here, Spain, their bankrolling this movement, or or bankrolling the effort, or bankrolling the parliamentarians who are bringing forward the bills. But it still gives me hope that we don't really have organic, what you call organic pro-abortion movements, or we don't have our own, you know, African parents for sexual rights or whatever, right? There's always some link, if you have a bunch of women doing it, if you check, they're not doing it with their money, they're doing it with some American money, or British or, you know, they're doing it with dollars, and euros and pounds. So my hope is that the Africans still stay true to the core values. And I'm hoping that one day that the West will listen, because I have also total confidence in the pro-life movement within the West and the good people in the West. I have lived in England, all these 13 years, and I have been in America so many times. I come to America about five times a year. And I have many, many American friends. And you included and I know that there are so many good people who have the desire for things to change, you know, they don't want this kind of outside influence this American influence going to Africa. They're ashamed when I tell them, do you know that the American you know, we there was this that happened and it had to do with American supporters. They hate it and they reject this idea that one day, the good people, the voice of the good people, and the power of the good people in the Western nations will, will also get to a point where we can feel the effects as well, where we can feel the effects in Africa. Already something small has happened, but is significant that the Mexico City policy was reinstated by President Donald Trump. And for eight years leading to that. So during the last administration here in the United States, there was all this money going to overseas for abortion, though it was going to own organizations like International Parenthood Federation that were then pushing for abortion in African countries. So it was very, such an encouraging thing for me to see that funding stream blocked up by the current administration. My hope is that there will then be more things you know, more more of this kind of life affirming gesture from from Western nations. I want to see people from the EU doing the same thing. I want to see people from the United Kingdom doing the same thing that they are more conscious, cautious and conscious of the cultural views and values of the people who they are funding so all of this will be my hope. I pray a great deal about it and I'm hoping to get what I want. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 34:28 Well, we'll keep you in our prayers. Please keep us in yours. Obianuju Ekeocha 34:32 I will! de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 34:33 Uju, thank you so much for coming be with us. Obianuju Ekeocha 34:35 Thanks, Ken. I'm grateful. Thanks for having me on. de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture 34:43 Thank you to Obianuju Ekeocha for the marvelous conversation. Find links to her open letter to Melinda Gates, as well as her recent presentation hosted by our friends at the McGrath Institute for Church Life in the show notes. Subscribe to Ethics and Culture Cast so that you can always get the latest episodes by visiting ethicscenter.nd.edu/podcast. We would love your feedback. Please give us a review wherever you get your podcasts and email your suggestions to cecpodcast@nd.edu. Our theme music is "I Dunno" by grapes, licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution license. We'll see you next time on Ethics and Culture Cast. Until then, make good decisions. Transcribed by https://otter.ai