de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture  0:00  
This is Episode 27 of Ethics and Culture Cast from the de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture.

Welcome to Episode 27 of Ethics and Culture Cast. I'm Ken Hallenius, the communications specialist at the de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture at the University of Notre Dame. In this episode, we chat with Abby Johnson, pro-life advocate and author of the 2010 memoir, "Unplanned: The Dramatic True Story of a Former Planned Parenthood Leader's Eye-Opening Journey across the Life Line." Abby's story is now on the silver screen in a brand new film adaptation. And she was on campus with the filmmakers for a pre-release panel discussion hosted by the de Nicola Center. Let's sit down with Abby for this fascinating conversation about her life, and about what it's like to see herself on the big screen.

Abby Johnson, thank you kindly for coming to be with us.

Abby Johnson  1:17  
Yes, of course, thank you for having me on.

de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture  1:20  
So tell us a bit about your story. You know, kind of I mean, you've obviously written a memoir and and you're very well known, of course, in pro-life circles. Tell us just a kind of the, the encapsulated version of the Abby Johnson story.

Abby Johnson  1:33  
Sure, I worked for Planned Parenthood for eight years, got involved with them in college, sort of rose up through their ranks and became a clinic director, and left after being there for eight years after witnessing a live ultrasound-guided abortion procedure, where I saw a 13 week old unborn child fight and struggle for his life against the abortion instruments. And I knew then that there was life in the womb, that I could no longer deny that or ignore it, that there was humanity there. And I realized that I was on the wrong side of this debate. And so I ended up leaving and ever since then have been really trying to speak out and just sort of expose what's taking place inside of these abortion clinics. Because I think, I think, you know, the, our secular media and society has done a really good job of sort of sanitizing abortion for the masses, and not really saying what it actually is, or telling the truth about what abortion is. And so I'm really trying to bring some of that truth to the forefront and, but also, what's really important to me is, is getting people connected to healing resources, because we are living in this wounded culture, I mean, millions and millions of people who have been wounded by abortion, and we need to make sure that we're providing help, so that they can get the resources that they need.

de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture  3:14  
Wonderful. Now, you wrote a memoir called "Unplanned" relatively soon after you after you left your work at Planned Parenthood. And now of course, it's, it's on the big screen, it's coming to the big screen under the same name, "Unplanned." What's it like to see your story on the big screen and to see it portrayed by actors who are making decisions, kind of, you know, that may or may not been the exact same decision you were making in that moment? But what's that like to watch?

Abby Johnson  3:43  
Yeah, it's. It's weird.

It's very surreal. It's, it feels very vulnerable. You know, it's one thing to write about your experiences. You know, writing "Unplanned" was, was really, it was very healing for me. At that time in my life, just sort of getting those stories out there. And sort of like a public, you know, confession. That was helpful to me. But you know, there's something very powerful about seeing things visually. And so this is very different. It's, it's very different than just writing things down. And, knowing that you are, I mean, I tell people, it's people are like, "What is this like?", and I'm, like, you know, think about the greatest sin you've ever committed. The worst thing you've ever done in your life. Now put it on a movie for everybody to watch. I mean, that would, that it feels yuck, sometimes, you know, but, you know, I didn't sign on to do this movie, to make Abby Johnson a household name. I mean, I signed on to do this film so that God and His redemption would be a household discussion. And, I mean, peripherally, that's those conversations are already happening. Because of what people are seeing in this film.

de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture  5:27  
We had the chance to watch it as a staff and kind of prepare for this event. And really, we came away thinking, and kind of with with the idea, this is a story of conversion. But it's a kind of a conversion through love. That's, that's what we saw. We saw it, we could see the love in Ashley's face as she's portraying you. But then also, I mean, again, this is your story, you know, and, and, of course, that that conversion does not just from your job, but also like in your personal life too. I read, of course, in your story, that you've become Catholic, and in the ensuing years,

Abby Johnson  6:02  
Yeah, we've become Catholic. There's a part in the movie that says, you know, I've already told Doug we are one and done. We're going to have one kid, and that's it. Now, I'm pregnant with number eight. So yeah, we've, there's definitely been a lot of conversion experiences take place in my life.

But honestly, I mean, you're right, this is a movie of conversion. And it's, I feel like it's a movie that relates to everyone, because we have all at some point in our life had a conversion experience, right? I mean, we're all evolving, we're all changing. And we've all experienced some sort of conversion. And it may be really profound, it may not be as profound. But we've all had something happen in our life that's made us say, Whoa, now I'm going to live a different way. And it may not be abortion. But I feel like that makes the movie really relatable to everybody. And I also feel like this movie provides a conversion experience for everybody who watches it if they want to take it. You know, there are far too many people who are willing to check a box and say that they're pro-life. But they're not actually activated inside the pro-life movement. They're not doing anything to actively end abortion. And I've had people come to me and say, oh, but Abby, don't you think it's just going to be a bunch of like Christians that go watch your film? And my answer to that is, well, that would just be fan-flippin'-tastic. Because if just half of those who sit in church, every Sunday, were actually active in ending abortion in their own community, we would have already seen victory on this issue. But our apathy is what continues to escalate this tragedy in our country. And so it really does provide an opportunity for conversion for everyone who watches it.

de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture  8:21  
Well, that actually brings up an interesting kind of thought too. In the movie, there's a scene where you're first meeting, Marilisa, and she talks about the different types of pro-lifers, kind of from your perspective, you know, both on that side, and now as as a pro-life, you know, advocate yourself and an activist really, the different types of pro-lifers. I guess, I'm trying to figure out how to word this without offending anybody because of course, we're all working towards a goal. But the effective methods or so

Abby Johnson  8:58  
There's definitely ineffective techniques and effective techniques, particularly on the sidewalk. And I mean, really, just in our interactions, period, I mean, the way that we interact with people on social media, we're the worst, at interacting with people on social media. And here, we are supposed to be ambassadors of Christ, and all we're doing is accusing people making them feel terrible and small, and that's not representing Christ at all. And so it's the same when we're on the sidewalk, what are we doing? Are we offering the hope and peace and love of Christ? Or are we looking at these women telling them they're going to go to hell, if they have an abortion, calling them a murderer, telling them to keep their legs closed, calling them a baby killer? How is that going to lead them into the loving arms of Christ? I mean, I'm, I'm just thinking, as a woman who has had crisis pregnancies in my life, there is nothing inviting about a person standing there with a six foot bloody sign yelling at me telling me to repent, or I'm going to go to Hell. There's nothing about that, that makes me say, I bet this guy really gets what I'm going through right now. Like nothing. So that that we have to be, we have to be seen as, as people who are open, who are available to these women who feel like they're in crisis, or who may really be in crisis. And I don't know, I just I feel like we don't love well, even in our own movement.

You know, there's a lot of people who are well intentioned, but you know what they say about intentions; the road to hell is paved with them.

It's not just about the intentions we have. It's about our actions. And are we effective? I remember hearing somebody one time, who is a person that goes and yells and screams and calls people murderers, and with the big gross signs and everything. And I remember she said, "Well it doesn't really matter if we're being effective, it just matters that we're out there." And I'm thinking, what, what, why go out there? This isn't about us being right. You know, I don't know what saint said it. But some saint said, win an argument lose a soul. It's not about being right. This is about penetrating hearts, and minds. And you're not going to do that through an argument.

And so I just I think there's a lot of pride in our--of course there is--because Satan is constantly trying to get his hand into this movement. And I think one of the sins he loves the most is the sin of pride. Because we're so easily, we're all so easily manipulated by it and affected by it.

de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture  12:17  
Yeah. Well, let's talk a bit about the work you're doing now. So you have an organization you founded, called "And Then There Were None." So tell us a bit about this movement and about your work.

Abby Johnson  12:30  
Yeah. So in mid 2012, I started an organization to help abortion clinic workers transition out of the abortion industry and into an new line of employment, getting them into healing resources, emotional support, spiritual support. I mean, really, it's a comprehensive program, for whatever that person needs at that time. And, you know, we didn't know how successful we would be, it's sort of a hard sell. 

But, I just had to believe that there had to be more people out there like me, who just didn't want to be there anymore, but didn't know where to go. And I couldn't believe that at the time, here we've been fighting legalized abortion for 40 years, and nobody had thought about reaching out to abortion clinic workers. And when I would ask people about that, I would ask some of my friends who were, you know, who are considered pro-life leaders in the movement? And they would say to me, Well, they're just sort of too far gone. And I thought, okay, that's, that's how we see. That's how we see them. We have done to the abortion worker, what we have accused them of doing to the unborn, and that is that we have dehumanized them. And that's sad. That's a sad state of affairs. And it shows how little we know about God. And, and I would say, what, what about me, I mean, I, I left, right. And they would say, well, you're different. And I'm like, no I'm not. I'm not different. I'm just like them. I'm just like you, I'm a sinner in need of a Savior. And so we got it going. And now we've helped, right at 500 abortion clinic workers leave their jobs, and come into our ministry. And, you know, the ultimate goal is to get them into a relationship with Christ. And most of them do have some sort of faith foundation. And so we want to get them plugged back into church, many, many, many are fallen away Catholics. So we want to get them back into sacraments. And, yeah. 

de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture  15:00  
Do some of them make the leap all the way to pro-life activists?

Abby Johnson  15:03  
Yeah, I would say, yeah, a lot of them do. Yeah, a lot of them are speaking out publicly now. You know, some of them are like, I'm pro life, but I don't ever want to talk about, you know, what I've gone through. 

de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture  15:14  
Sure.

Abby Johnson  15:17  
But it's, I mean, we sort of we poll all of our clients and 20%, over 20%, I think it's like 20.8% of our clients have attempted suicide. And while working in the clinic, or just right after leaving. So I, I just, it's amazing to me that they were just a forgotten piece of this, this puzzle. And just, you know, I just feel really thankful that after much resistance, God kept tapping me on the shoulder to do something with this and to provide this sort of care. And for our team, I mean, we have I mean, as far as I'm concerned, the best team in the pro-life movement of people helping these workers. So it's really it's, it's a blessing to do this work. 

de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture  16:18  
And what's the structure of it? Is it like the people everywhere around the nation? Or how does it how does it work in general?

Abby Johnson  16:26  
Yeah, we have client managers and staff all around the country, to sort of help regionally, but we are a nationwide ministry, we are looking to take this model internationally, to some different countries. Ireland is on our list. We have a group in Spain that's wanting to get started. We even have a group in Kenya that's wanting to start so I think it's starting to catch on everywhere. Even internationally, people really thinking about these workers praying, actively praying for their conversion, which, you know, is relatively new.

de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture  17:11  
Yeah. Wonderful. Well, Abby Johnson, congratulations on your story, making it to the big screen and we hope that it's very successful and that it touches hearts, as you say. And thank you kindly for responding to God's call to conversion.

Abby Johnson  17:27  
Thank you so much.

de Nicola Center for Ethics and Culture  17:33  
Thank you to Abby Johnson for an excellent conversation. Find links to her book and details about the movie "Unplanned" in the show notes. Subscribe to Ethics and Culture Cast so that you can always get the latest episodes by visiting ethicscenter.nd.edu/podcast. We would love your feedback. Please give us a review wherever you get your podcasts and email your suggestions to cecpodcast@nd.edu. Our theme music is "I Dunno" by grapes, licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution license. We'll see you next time on ethics and culture cast. Until then, make good decisions.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai