Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:00:00] You need to build the discipline, the habits. Dance with the fear of performing. Understand that not every time you're going to succeed. But in the long term, if you make the right choices every day, you're going to accumulate, as you're gonna grow. Tried to grow every year. Every day you make small decisions that all combine up to really big growth. Not comparing yourself to others, but just to yourself. Am I better than yesterday? How can I be a better person? If you become a better person and grow as a as a person, the professional career is also gonna take off.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:00:45] What's up, everyone? Welcome to another episode of the Artists of Data Science. Be sure to follow the show on Instagram @TheArtistsOfDataScience and on Twitter @ArtistsOfData. I'll be sharing awesome tips and wisdom on Data science, as well as clips from the show. Join the Free Open Mastermind Slack channel by going to Bitly.com/artistsofdatascience. Where I'll keep you updated on biweekly open office hours that I'll be hosting for the community. I'm your host Harpreet Sahota. Let's ride this beat out into another awesome episode. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the show.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:01:35] Our guest today is on a mission to teach people skills to analytical thinkers and bridge the Data business gap with emotional intelligence. Ten years ago, he was a professional poker who spent every day optimizing his decisions based on data and human behavior.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:01:49] Though he doesn't play poker anymore, he's still passionate about psychology and numbers. He has a background in behavioral economics and uses that theoretical understanding of Data and human behavior to understand how interpersonal relationships work in practice. And in the process, he's learned that the main Data challenge for companies is not technology - it's the interaction between people. Through his training and coaching programs, which is grounded in a human centric approach, he's helped hundreds of people learn how to ask better questions, communicate with business leaders and present their results with impact. So please, help me welcoming our guest today - man who's on a mission to help one hundred thousand analytical thinkers improve their people skills - Gilbert Eijkelenboom.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:02:31] Gilbert, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to be here today. I really, really appreciate having you here on the show.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:02:37] Thank you very much. I'm very excited. And thank you very much for the invitation. I'm looking forward to our conversation. I'm sure it's going to bring some interesting stuff.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:02:45] Definitely, man. I think the work that you're doing, the space is super important and something that is often overlooked by people who are not only in the Data field, but breaking into the Data field, because this is stuff that's not typically part of our normal curriculum that we learn in school. But it's so fundamental and foundational to our continued success. Before we get into all that, I was wondering if you could talk to us a bit about your journey. You know, what made you give up playing professional poker and how do you get involved in the Data world?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:03:13] Absolutely. Absolutely. So what I've done during my student time, I started playing poker, a friend of mine, he showed me how to play it. I had no idea what the rules were. But slowly, I got more into it. The reason I got into it is because I enjoy numbers and psychology so much, because it was continually, like you said in your introduction, continually optimizing my decisions based on Data. And also taking all the psychology into account, what decisions the other people were making. And I thought it was fascinating. And in the beginning, it was it was tough. I was just playing for the play money, not not for real money. But step by step, I could climb a bit higher and I had quite a great time. But like you said, at some point I felt the world of poker was a bit too much, just about poker. It's a really small world and people enjoy talking about poker. And although I like the game, I felt there was a bit more. There's a bit more to it. So that's why I explore a bit of a broader perspective. I decided to study behavioral economics, which has this Data component, as well as the psychology components. Then I started to started my career six years ago as a consultant in analytics. And again in analytics, I saw a lot of things coming together for me.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:04:34] First of all, the Data. And second of all, the psychology. And what I enjoy most is combining those two.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:04:40] So using the technical methods to find insights in data and apply those insights combined with psychology.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:04:48] So you had a pretty good track record here over the last six years working in the Data space. I was wondering, where do you see the field of analytics and data science headed in the next, say, two to five years?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:05:01] Hmm. Interesting question. What I see now in the market is that a lot of companies still treat data science as the magic bullets. I would say they hire an expensive team of data scientists, because most data scientists are very expensive. They put them on some desks and - give them some desks - and then expects that the magic will happen. It's a bit like - I read a metaphor once, it's not mine, but I'm happy to steal it. It's a bit like a gym membership, because if you can if you purchase a really expensive gym membership with expensive gym clothes and the greatest running shoes you can find in the store. That doesn't mean you're getting fit, right. You need to go to the gym. You need to put in the effort. You need to make sure that you're going to sweat. And I see the same happening in Data Science. It doesn't mean if you put a team of Data Scientists in your company that is gonna work directly. You need to test experiments. There's a lot of difficulties on collaboration between Data scientists and business people because they don't just have a different job role and different experience. Usually they also have a different personality and way of thinking. And that's exactly where where the struggle is.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:06:09] So what do you think is in a separate the great data scientist from the just merely good data scientists kind of going forward in the next two to five years?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:06:18] I would say there's there's two important things. First of all, because data science, data science is changing so, so quickly that the field with all the different technologies, it helps a lot if you're immensely curious and and a fast learner. And to do that, you need to have an open mind. And second of all, the point relates to what I've said earlier.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:06:40] If you are a really good communicator, if you have the emotional intelligence to work with other people, understand what they need and how they're gonna use your models. That certainly helps in becoming a really good data scientist.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:06:55] Speaking of making use of models, how do you see Data science impacting the field of behavioral economics in the next two to five years?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:07:06] What I see with the combination of data science and behavioral economics, there's a lot of interesting applications in banking because behavioral economics is about the psychology of decision making. So to understand how we make certain decisions, because if we understand how people make decisions, we can also influence those decisions in a positive way. If you think about yourself, saving money is often hard. It's way easier to just to spend it. Go to a bar and spend it on 10 beers is quite easy. But having the discipline to save money every year is tricky. And that's why there's a lot of behavioral economists that said: OK, we need to nudge their behavior, so influence in a more positive way such that people will save more. So one of the examples, there's an Australian bank. They had an app where you could round up all your purchases, which means that if you buy a sandwich for 3.65, then it's going to be round up to 4.00. All those small amounts, those thirty five cents, amounts up to quite a big amount in the end. And that helps you to save more and reach you're saving goals. Where a Data science comes in is to understand each type of customer because all people are different, of course, but still Data science allows us to to make segmentations and understand what type of customers there are.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:08:29] And by understanding what type of customer there are, you can also understand what is driving their behaviour and how can we influence it in a positive way. So not just make a big and bigger profit, but also help them reach their own personal goals.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:08:44] Talking about human behaviour. I want to get into your book, People Skills for Analytical Thinkers, and I like your approach to mapping the human behavior, kind of the decision making process, to algorithms. Can you talk to us about the first principle that you bring up in your book and how we can see our brain as a set of algorithms with an input process and output?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:09:08] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I was in a world trip last year for six months. What I wanted to do just to write a small piece of paper, let's say 20, 20 pages, a PDF document to help some data scientist out with these people skills. But eventually it grew, and it grew and now it's a complete book. What I always found tricky is that all the psychology books, all the personal development books, they have just a kind of standard format, which I understood was not completely applicable to me as an analytical thinker, right. That I guess as an analyst, as a data scientist.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:09:40] So that's why indeed, I use a lot of metaphors from from Data. Like the one in the beginning of my book with the algorithm where I say, OK, you can see your brain as a set of algorithms. How that works is, first of all, it takes the input from your environment. So you are somewhere in the supermarket, or in a meeting, you take in all the different inputs based on that. Your brain is going to think what is the appropriate response? So based on the inputs, your algorithms in your head produce an output. A lot of those algorithms you've learned over the last years. A lot of algorithms also you developed in the early years during your childhood. And that's exactly the reason why psychologists, if they have an interview with you before your job, they always dig into your childhood. And for some people, it's quite difficult to talk about that. It's very personal, of course, but there's a reason why they do it. It's because in those first years of your development, the groundwork is being done for later work. So all the all the algorithms, or many algorithms, are developed in that period. To give an example, to make it very concrete. So if you're a little guy.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:10:54] So Harpreet has a new boy since since a few days, congratulations. So in a few years. Imagine he's walking in the kitchen, he's standing close to the oven the stove, and then he touches it because it's a very curious, right. Of course, it's very painful if the oven is on at that moment, there's going to be an algorithm formed. OK. If I'm in the in the kitchen and I see the light is on and the oven is turned on, let's not touch it. So that's a really simple example how we learn the certain inputs. So I'm in the kitchen, I should not touch it. That's in the algorithms that we teach ourself. And of course, this is a basic example, but it works the same in meetings with a lot of senior guys. So maybe you think about should I raise this question - yes or no? But I feel a bit nervous because maybe it feels awkward or maybe I will look like I'm a bit stupid because I'm asking this question. Because of the algorithms we have developed in the past, in our childhood it's going to be more difficult. Part of it is also because because of evolution, I can I can tell a bit more if you like.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:12:01] Speaking of evolution, you mentioned like there's two systems in the brain - the limbic system and the neocortex. Is that what you're about to reference? And if so, can you talk about what they are and what their influence is in our daily lives?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:12:14] Absolutely, yeah. How you can see your brain is that it's consist of two different system. One is the limbic system. You can see it as the emotional brain.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:12:22] And the other one is the thinking brain, the neocortex. So, the emotional brain and the thinking brain. The best metaphor that I use is an elephant and a rider. Because the elephant is the emotional brain, the rider is the thinking brain. So the writer is the rational guy on top. He knows where to go. And he has the facts and the information.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:12:43] But the elephant is emotional, doesn't always listen to the rider. How does this apply to your life? For example, if you come home from a long day of Data Science work and you decide, OK, I want to get fit. So I want to go to the gym. And that's your thinking brain because you're thinking brain knows what is knows rationally, what is the best way to live your life. But then your emotional brain says, well, I've had a long day, maybe I want to relax a bit and it's OK. Let's let's take a candy.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:13:14] And before you know it, you're on the couch. And why? Because your emotional brain is so much stronger than your thinking brain. Because an elephant is 40 times heavier, right, than just a human.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:13:28] So the rider, of course, can try to steer in the right direction. But in the end, the emotional brain, the elephants will go wherever he wants to go. And that's also an important point in the book where I really considered myself very rational and analytical. And although there's a lot of good qualities on that, that really made it difficult for me to interact with others. I was I was quite shy. I was over thinking. I was thinking about others, what will they think about me? Is this what I'm going to say -

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:13:56] What I'm about to say is this good enough, funny enough, smart enough? That made it very difficult for me to speak up a bit more and to connect with other people. I've found over the years that those are the qualities or skills that I needed to develop to connect with other people. That's exactly what I see in other Data scientists as well. What I hear from them, their struggles. And that's why I'm so passionate to help them with these topics.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:14:20] So you're talking about these feelings, these negative feelings that. What are people going to think about me already and think I'm stupid? So these type of feelings that are coming from from the limbic system. Right. And so that the neocortex part of the brain, that we should train ourselves to think, OK, when I have this negative feeling, negative emotion. Let me try to flip that into something more positive instead of thinking to myself :Oh, these people are going to think I'm stupid. I could tell myself, actually, no, they're not going to think I'm stupid. They're gonna think that I'm genuinely interested in this particular outcome. And I want to see it succeed, right. It's all about kind of the narrative that you tell yourself.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:14:57] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And when you become aware of these things, these emotions, you can also steer them. But if you're not aware of them, you're gonna be heavily influenced by them, even as a rational thinker. I always thought ok, I'm a rational thinker. That's how I make my decisions. But I was very far from the truth. If you become more observant and more aware of these these emotions, you can just sit with them and you can say, hey, I indeed feel a bit fearful to ask a question, not to volunteer for an important presentation.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:15:28] But but I just I'm just gonna push through the fear and just do it anyway. And that and that's how these that the elephant and the rider can work in harmony.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:15:40] So talk to us about rejection. You know, what's the biological mechanism for it? And, you know, a lot of people out there who are applying for jobs, they fear rejection in the job search. How can we leverage - now that we're armed with this knowledge of these two systems, right,  the limbic system and the neocortex. How could we better cope with rejection in our job search?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:16:02] Yeah, it's a really on point question, especially in this time. It's so hard to to feel rejection. It's very hard because when I when I feel rejected, I feel kind of worthless. I don't enjoy the moment. I am not in a state to do to any productive work. I think many, many people experience the same way. And that is the emotional brain talking, the elephant. Which is saying like, this is stupid. I don't want to I don't want to do it anymore. And just pushing away all those emotions. Well, you can also think, OK, I feel in my body that I don't enjoy this. But still, I'm going gonna change the narrative, just like you mentioned just now. If I don't get invited for a job interview or maybe after the last round, they say it's not going to work. We gonna someone else. You can say, hey, they rejected me or they chose for someone else. If you think if you have a different mindset and think they probably had a good reason to do so. I'm not bad. The other person is just maybe a bit better for this particular position ,in this particular moment, for this company. I think with such a narrative, you can keep your confidence and just apply for the next. And especially in this time, it's very hard to find a position.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:17:11] But I think with such a method you keep the positivity and your self-confidence high

Harpreet Sahota: [00:17:16] So it's kind of not taking the rejection as a personal attack against you, your skill set, your self-worth. Not letting that rejection affect your self-worth and rather reframing the story to yourself. OK, well, you know what? This organization had a certain set of requirements. They needed a certain skill set for this job. And my skill set for this job actually didn't align. And that's okay, because I probably saved myself a lot of stress and heartache and hardships had I gone into a role where maybe I wasn't aligned well for it. Comes back to, I guess is kind of the narrative that you tell yourself, right?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:17:50] Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. And how you frame it. It's even more positive.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:17:54] It's not neutral like I framed it, but it's it's like one layer on top. You frame it in a positive way. I probably wouldn't be happy in such a role. And now I'm going to look, now I have the opportunity to find a role that completely fits me.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:18:12] What's up, artists? Be sure to join the free, open, Mastermind slack community by going to bitly.com/artistsofdatascience. It's a great environment for us to talk all things Data science, to learn together, to grow together. And I'll also keep you updated on the open biweekly office hours that I'll hosting for our community. Check out the show on Instagram @TheArtistsOfDataScience, and Follow us on Twitter at @ArtistsOfData, look forward to seeing you there.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:18:36] There there's another section on the importance of saying no. So can you talk to us a bit about the importance of saying no, especially now that we're in this post COVID work environment where we're all kind of working from home? And it seems like, you know, we have to be online all the time.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:18:58] Yeah, it's very hard. Of course, that brings a lot of opportunities. I mean, the reason we connected. Is  Internet and over LinkedIn

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:19:07] It brings a lot of opportunities, but also challenges because we're online all the time. And people also expect you to be online. And in certain companies, they expect when they call in the evening, you pick up.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:19:21] So the boundaries become very blurry. And what you need to be mindful of is, hey, what do I think about such a switch to a situation? And how does my day look like when I'm most productive? I think what what the trap is, what most people fall into is that they think they don't have an option. And of course, their manager and there's hierarchy and their manager may demand something. But still, if you let your manager know what your preferences are, if you do the best work in the morning individually and have a conversation with your manager and say, hey, can I block the first two hours to do programming and go into depth with my Data science models?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:20:05] If you tied it to his his goals, saying that I'm more productive, I'm going to deliver more for the team. That's his goal. That's what's helping him. If you're just in a reactive state, seeing all the e-mails coming in and the requests of phone calls. Also in the evening and then you're going to have a hard time, right? If you show that you're willing to deliver a lot of value and at the same time you can be strict on your boundaries, what is acceptable for you or not.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:20:31] When are you available, yes or no? That's very important. And that's also where feelings come into play. And while I always thought, OK, I'm rational, I'm analytical. I'm trying to make the decisions based on data and facts. But many decisions you cannot make based on facts. Because if someone is going to call me, hey, do want to help me with this, I need to determine if it's in my agenda, if it's in line with my ambition, how I feel mentally. Do I still have some energy? There's more than rationality and facts to this equation.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:21:03] Thank you, man. Thank you for that. So another we've kind of set the foundation in terms of the mechanics of how we how we think can we get more in-depth on emotional intelligence. So can we start by having you define emotional intelligence for our listeners?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:21:21] Emotional intelligence is is often defined as the ability to manage and understand your own emotions and also those of others.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:21:31] What would you say is the importance of emotional intelligence in our personal and professional lives?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:21:38] Like you said, it goes way beyond professional life to become a really good data scientist. You need to, first of all, understand the business problem. So you need to ask good questions and understand how you're going to use your data. What are the most important topics for them? And without emotional intelligence, it's going to be very difficult. Also, during the process requires good communication, because if you're going to sit in a dark corner and not communicate to anyone, see what they think about your intermediate product, your prototype. You're not going to get that by you know, you want to make them part of the solution, ask for input, not just rational, but also emotional. What do you think about this? Then they become a fan of your products. Then if you're going to present the solution, the key to presentations is that you understand what the audience is in front of you because your message is going to be totally different. If you talk to fellow Data scientist, managing level, or the CEO. All those people have different goals. By understanding that and having the emotional intelligence to understand their emotions behind the behavior, that helps a lot. Then to life...

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:22:45] I think emotional intelligence is the basis of relationships, not just with a partner, because that's incredibly helpful in dating life. Of course, other people will not like like it if you act like a robot. People can relate very well to humans - other humans. That also sense emotions and are not afraid to express emotions as well. That's also something I see in the workplace where people think, okay. I mean, a corporate life, I work for a big company, so I need to act professional. But professional doesn't is not equal to do hiding and having a mask and not showing anything. It doesn't mean you cannot talk about personal stuff. It doesn't mean you cannot say that you're not happy or you don't. You don't feel well about a certain topic. Actually, it's the opposite. When I opened up it a bit more about these topics when I first thought, is this fluffy psychology talk. You know, emotions are only harmful for the decision making. Once I opened up, I became more confident. I felt much deeper connections with people both on a professional level and also with my friends, family, and girlfriend. So I think there's an incredible opportunity.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:23:52] When I first got exposed to these concepts and first started to, you know, not look at this psychology and emotional intelligence type of stuff as being you know "woo woo". My life changed dramatically and my career has blossomed so, so much. And it's interesting because it's something that is so foundational to being a human, but it doesn't get talked to us in school. Is that because emotional intelligence can be learned, but it can't necessarily be taught?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:24:21] I think it can be taught like all these like all these topics. You cannot just learn it by by reading 10 pages of emotional intelligence.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:24:30] That's also why my book is really practical and exercise oriented, because emotional intelligence is also about exercise. You cannot improve your people skills without going out in the world and tries things out because that's how you learn. The same for Python or R code. Of course, you can read an extensive manual and help page, but if you don't try it yourself and fail and learn and experiment, then you're never going to be good at coding. So and the same holds for emotional intelligence. You need to need to learn, you need to try things out. There are some things that really help me was journaling.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:25:13] So writing down about your day, how was your day? And at the beginning I felt like maybe this is for kids, you know, evaluating your day, having a lock on it. What all the girls had in primary school. I think it's quite funny that for me, I swear by it now, and I don't do it every day, but a few times a week. And how it helps me is that I write down the most important things on the end of the day.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:25:41] And also important decisions. And I write down how I think about it and how I feel about it. And it's incredible to reflect because it's really helped me to evaluate situations and learn from it. And it's also funny to read it after five years to read what you what I've written is really intriguing because it shows how much you how much of growth and that makes it really interesting.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:26:13] That's a good actionable tip, like I've got my journal like right here, as I pull it out.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:26:17] Beautiful.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:26:18] People can't see it on the podcast. I've got my journal right here.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:26:21] Yes, you do journaling.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:26:22] Yeah. Yeah. I've just started the practice recently and I found it to be helpful. I unfortunately haven't been able to journal in a week or so. I've got a lot to get out now. But yes, it's been very, very helpful. So that's a really good, actionable bit of advice that we could do to start understanding ourselves and our emotions a little bit better is to start journaling. What's a, you know, when we're on the job, per se. Like journaling is a very good process when we're sitting at a desk by ourselves, but, you know, when we're actually at work interacting with our colleagues. Do you have any tips on what we could do to start developing better emotional intelligence?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:26:58] Absolutely. Absolutely. Because emotional intelligence is so much related to interactions between people, because, of course, much of it is partly what do I feel when I'm alone? It's what it's really impactful to to grow in the interactions with people. That's why I would say getting feedback is is critical. Very helpful method to get that feedback from other people. It's always a bit scared, of course, Scary of course. But it's so important how people view you. Of course, you see the world through your own pair of eyes and other people may have something interesting to tell you. And the method I was referring to is, is to keep, start, stop method. So first, this keep. What what should I keep doing? So what are my strengths? What what are the positive algorithms that I've built over the course of my life? And what should I start doing? What am I not doing yet but is valued if I will do it. And what should I stop doing? So that would be the negative behavior.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:28:02] It could be calling while you're in a meeting, but also more subtle things like apologizing when it's not necessary. So those are three steps. So those three steps, so keep, start, stop doing is very, very useful.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:28:16] What if we're like the type of person to really quiet and maybe we're uncomfortable asking for feedback? How do we get comfortable doing that? And then once we get feedback, what can we do to not take it as like a personal attack?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:28:29] Yeah, it's only difficult because we're wired, then again, that's an emotional elephant. When we get the feedback our emotional elephant is pushing it away, trying to say hmmm it doesn't matter. Maybe the guys not right. Well, it does not apply to me or not in this situation. What could be helpful and what I've heard from other people, especially analytical people that ask for feedback for the first few times, is to ask feedback on a specific, really specific projects or a really specific presentation or meeting. And in that way becomes a bit more narrow. And also, it's easier to ask. It also narrows down to feedback so that you will not overwhelm other people by asking that feedback. So that helps.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:29:12] And it's not enough to just ask for the feedback. We also need to action on it. And then circle back in and make sure that we've made improvements on that feedback as well, right?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:29:23] Yeah, that's right. That's right. And by journaling, of course, that can help by setting goals for the year. Last week, actually, I found a note from many years ago. It was during a holiday in France where I was with some friends. And one of those friends gave me the feedback. Yeah, you're a really good one to one. But in groups, you're you're so quiet and you could speak up a bit more. And it was this deep conversation with a lot of a lot of beers. But I wrote it down and I found the note after many years. And I went back to this guy who gave me the feedback, this friend, and he laughs. First of all, that I saved is that the things these notes and continually think about developing myself. But he said - and I ask him, how is it now? Do you see any any difference? And he a it's completely different now.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:30:20] You express yourself much more. You're not as robotic and much more connected and more courageous in social situations. So it was it was beautiful to see that piece of progress for myself. And I think if you take those steps continually, that's that's going to be tremendously helpful.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:30:41] Yeah. Since I suffer from the same thing, too, I think I'm pretty good when I'm one-on-one. But group settings, I'm a bit quiet and I think that a lot that comes back to, you know, we're talking about the limbic system. There's that little piece in the limbic system, little almond shaped thing called the amygdala, right. Which is that fear response. It's rooted in our ancient kind of biology where it's like, oh, we don't want to say or seen weird. We don't the group to ostracize us. It's better just to stay safe in a corner and blend in than stand out and say something that might get us laughed at. And you just have to just overcome that. Right. And just just push through it, you know, realize that it's not the end of the world if you say something and people laugh at you.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:31:21] Exactly. Exactly. And usually we talk a lot in our heads and especially analytical people. They would think a lot.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:31:28] What's going to happen if because because we planned so far ahead. And we think about too many things, to be honest. But that's also it. It's a big power, but it can be a weakness as well as something we struggle with. And it's, again, this emotional elephant that says, OK, no, don't do it.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:31:43] It's gonna be scary as the rider, the thinking brain, knows that it's best to speak up. Or to volunteer for the presentation. And to do the scary stuff, because, of course, everyone knows rationally that's going to that's what brings growth. Right. Everyone knows that there's nothing new. But it's it's all about having the courage and awareness of yourself. This is just emotions, because in pre-historic times, we were living in a tribe where it was very, very important to be accepted by the group. That's why people didn't take big risks. If you said something that was totally out of line with what the tribe needs, you may be kicked out of your tribe. And a consequence of that is that you would have no security, no shelter, and no food. So literally, it was deadly. So rejection, standing out from a group, was deadly. And that's why we developed our brain throughout all those years, such that we are incredibly fearful for rejection and taking risks.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:32:46] And your rational brain, your thinking brain, of course, knows that you're not going to die. You can do a presentation and you mess up. Nothing is going to happen. Did the worst that can happen is that you learn, right? This this quote from Nelson Mandela. Incredible. If you realize that there's so much opportunity for growth and once I personally saw that, it's led to a lot of happiness in my life.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:33:07] So, yeah, if you can get through doing things that you hate to do, on the other side is greatness. You just have to do it right. Are you familiar with with any of the work by Seth Godin wrote a book called Linchpin, Scott [I misspoke, should be Steven] Pressfield or The War of Art, and Do the Work. They talk about this concept called The Resistance. And which is exactly just that amygdalic response to not wanting to stand out, to not wanting to pursue something because you want to feel safe and secure. If you have if you haven't checked those books out I think you'll really enjoy those. 

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:33:36] Yeah those are beautiful books.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:33:37] Steven Pressfield, I love a lot of the War of Art, because I felt this resistance as well. I read the book while writing my own book, at the times I wrote this. It's kind of a rollercoaster, writing a book because in the beginning I was just about to write 20 pages of documents for Data scientists, but it was bigger and bigger and I was very enthusiastic.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:33:57] I'm incredibly passionate about helping other analytical thinkers with these developing these people skills.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:34:05] But then I also felt on now, you know, if if I publish a book what people think isn't good enough, who am I to teach all these people people skills? And of course, I think I have a story to tell, and I've built quite some knowledge on this subject. But still, there's a doubt and I think that makes it also beautiful, especially if you work for yourself because you need to get your own income. You're going to be judged anyway. There's so much judgment and also on the Internet. If no one is judging you, then you're not pushing yourself outworks enough.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:34:42] I definitely felt that resistance a lot, and I still do. With this podcast specifically, you know, this is I consider this to be my art, my art form. And I definitely feel that resistance a lot, especially when it comes to trying to edit things, make it perfect. And I notice myself not shipping things. The podcast kind of came out like a month earlier, but here's to the resistance that that led me to delay it and prevent shipping it until, you know, I eventually did. But, yeah, that that's that's awesome, man. I'm glad that we speak the same language there.

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Harpreet Sahota: [00:35:43] How does emotional intelligence now, how does it change or does it stay the same? Now that we're in this post-Cold War world, we're face to face interactions are now, you know, virtual.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:35:54] I think it makes the emotional intelligence even more important because there's there's a barrier. Of course, we can see each other with webcams if we're lucky. I'm still in many meetings where webcams are not used. Even if webcams are on, it's. It creates a barrier. It's different physically. There's a different response as well if you're in the same room because all the other chemicals are harmonizing and there's mirror neurons firing. If you're in the same room and that gives a bonding feeling, which you don't have if you are behind the camera and that makes it difficult, why it makes emotional intelligence more or more important is because because of this distance, you need to check more often how how it is going with people. If you do a project with with others, have have some quick check ins how people are doing. And of course, this time also brings a lot of anxiety. Am I gonna keep my job? Am I applying for the right jobs? Am I crushed because I'm rejected? There's a lot of there's a lot of anxiety in this in this time. And if you are aware of your own emotions and not seeing blown away by your own emotions, that helps a lot because then you can consistently make the right decisions and not be pulled away by your emotional elephant.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:37:12] And having a crushed ego.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:37:14] You talk about this concept of a bright spot in your book, would you mind just giving, a say, overview of what that concept means and maybe how we can go about identifying and cultivating our own bright spot.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:37:26] Yeah, sure. So most people are aware of blindspots, which are weaknesses that we are not aware about. Well, and people can help to uncover those. But the contrary also exists. So bright spots are strengths that we are not aware of. And the reason we are often not aware of it is because it feels so normal, because it feels very normal to to do something. To give an example, I, I once was in a meeting and we were totally lost in a discussion. No one had an idea where we were going and no one had even idea what what problem we are solving. That's that's why I went to the whiteboard and I wrote down what the core of the problem was. And I didn't have the solution, but I just wrote down the core of the problem, a few points about the main questions that came up during the meeting. And it was nothing new for me. It was nothing I had it to added to the board was not brilliant. That's what I thought. But after the meeting, several people came to me and they said, well, it's it's incredible what you did there because because you summarized and put it on the whiteboard where everybody could see it. The whole meeting was so much more focused. And in the end, we got to a solution. And for me, it felt I felt quite amazed by the feedback because I thought I didn't do anything, right. It was very natural. I just wrote it down on the board. And for many people, those strengths, whether it's the ability to listen or ability to dive into a model and find one piece of code, that is not correct, we are often not aware of those. So by getting feedback, you can just uncover your blind spots, but also your bright spots.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:39:00] That's an excellent point. Right? Because I think when people ask for feedback, they always think they're going to hear back something negative. But oftentimes you'll hear back something that people are saying that you're good at. You didn't even know you did it because it's just natural to you, right? That's awesome. And so that leads me to the next question here. It's about self-awareness. How could Data scientists cultivate better self-awareness? Do you have any actionable tips for our listeners that they can implement today to start becoming more self-aware?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:39:27] Yeah, I think a few I pointed out already. Which is one, journaling. And two, getting feedback. A third one is one that not everyone is comfortable with. And I wasn't either, because it's meditation. And since five years I've meditated. And I do so in an application on my phone. So it helps you to - because it helps me if someone guides me through it. Because it's very hard to to sit still and to think about nothing, because it felt so unproductive for me. I thought, OK, I'm just sitting here and what am I doing? Maybe this is the woo-woo stuff. Nothing is going to happen. I was very much mental and I think my emotional elephant tried to pull me out of the habit there. But slowly I build that habit. And if I need to mention one thing that really helped me in the last years is meditation, because  it calms down my mind because I'm thinking so much. Also, before this podcast, I meditated for 10 minutes just to get into the zone and to to relax and not think about one of the other things I want to do in the coming days, because then I want to be president with you and having a having a good conversation and I want to be here. That's also the basis for having a good, good connection and why it's important for Data scientists, because if we stay in our own head. We have all these thoughts, but we're not in the present in the meeting a the guy you're meeting, or in a bigger meeting, whether you're doing a presentation or whether you want to focus on making the best Data Science model you've built so far. You need to focus. And focus is one of the most difficult, difficult things there is at the moment because we we are pulled in all different directions with social media and news. Everything is available. Meditation helped me to, one, become more self aware and two, to focus my attention.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:41:15] Yeah, definitely. There was a dramatic shift in the quality of my focus once I started to incorporate a meditative process as part of my daily life. And, you know, it doesn't even take that much. 10 minutes a day is all you really need. Right. And so the way the way I incorporate into my day is like, oh, I'll do my cardio routine, you know, getting into that to that sympathetic nervous system, heart rate up, fighter fight or flight mode. And then immediately after jumping right into a meditative state and that parasympathetic nervous system, that rest and digest mode, just calm, relaxed, then ready to go about my day, some clear, focused, clear thinking. Yeah, I think it's something that people should definitely start incorporating. So how can we create a better awareness of our algorithms in our head? Is it through meditation or is there something else that we can we can start doing?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:42:04] Yeah, meditation can certainly help. Why meditation helps, it's not because all of a sudden during your meditation, you think, okay, hey, this is an algorithm that I've built. This, is it better. So if someone is calling loudly in the hallway, I'm getting very annoyed. No, that's not the inside that you're getting. Thanks to meditation straight away, it's more indirect. Because because you if you meditate, you're at your silence or your mind. Because of that, you get much more aware of all everything that's happening in your body. When someone talks over you in a meeting to once someone interrupts you and you are aware of that, you can really feel your stomach like, I don't like this. If it happens a few times, it can really, really bother you. Then maybe you totally shut down and you don't say anything anymore. By becoming more aware, you notice that, hey, I'm shutting down. But what is the alternative? Maybe I can be aware of, hey, I'm shutting down, but don't think that this doesn't feel right. Maybe I'm gonna talk to the guy who interrupts me three times and tell him about what happens and how I feel about it.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:43:09] And becoming more aware of your own body and what's happening and your preferences. That also helps helps it to express it to other people so that other people can take into account your preferences. When I was in high school, I just assumed other people would take into account my preferences. But I never expressed them. I never expressed them. I just hope they would take them into account. And if they were not, I felt a bit angry or resentful. No, I'm I feel more awareness. I'm able to to express that to people. And that's how I give them the opportunity to to take my my algorithms into account. So if I find it really boring when people interrupt me, then I can tell people and maybe the next time devil will take to take it into account. But if I never express them, express my own algorithms and my preferences, I don't give them the opportunity to to take them into account.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:44:02] So now that we've kind of got some tips on how we can develop some better awareness of our algorithms, what if we notice that we have some quote unquote may be bad or negative algorithms? You mentioned a three step process in your book for changing our algorithms. I just quickly kind of going over that at a high level for us.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:44:21] Yeah. The three step process that I mentioned in the book is, first of all, pause. So when you feel the behavior is happening, then take a pause. So imagine. So if you're really bad at saying no to people, then every time someone comes with a request, don't say yes immediately and try to get yourself in the moment.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:44:41] And that's where it is. Awareness helps. And then just take a pause. Pause three seconds. And then the second step after pausing is experiment with new behavior. Maybe say I need to check my agenda before I commit to any new tasks. If you feel I feel very confident to say, no, that's that's not gonna work for me. But there's various types of behaviors that you can choose. And then the third step is that you're going to repeat and monitor the progress.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:45:06] You're going to try and experiment with those behaviors after catching yourself with the behavior. Did you want to get rid of. And then you keep experimenting and see what happens at breakfast. Then journaling helps to track that progress. For example, you ate before you go to sleep. You look at a few situations, a few guys ask for my help. And that's always a good sign, of course, when people ask for your help because your work is valued. If you're not assertive enough, you you have an 80 hour work week and you're gonna work on stuff maybe you're not interested in.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:45:36] By pausing and taking that moment for reflecting, then implementing the new type of. Behavior. And then continuously doing that while monitoring the results. Then you can in the end, implement a new behavior. And the beauty and beauty of that is that after a while, it's not so difficult anymore to go to say no to someone, if that's what you mean, or to stand up and raise your hand, ask a question that feels stupid or volunteer for presentation or do some coding that you've never done before because you're building the habits and you're building new patterns, new algorithms in your head which make it more automatic and which make it easier for you to choose that desirable behavior instead of the behavior you want to get rid of.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:46:26] Reminds me about the habit loop - habit formation. We've got the cue, routine, reward, that kind of habit loop cycle.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:46:34] Let's shift gears a little bit here. I read a blog post of yours, must be it from a while back, but it was about intrapreneurship. Now, this is something that I'm fascinated about. Actually love this concept of entrepreneurship.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:46:46] Can you talk to me about what it means to be an entrepreneur and how a Data scientists can cultivate the qualities of an entrepreneur within themselves and be one for their organization?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:46:58] I would say Intrapreneurship is that you're kind of running yourself as a company within a company. Because we're all aware of entrepreneurship, which is running your own company. But this is in a company you're working for. And how I see that is that you have various various types because there's you have the expectations of other people, which is your job description, all the requests that come in, meeting requests, then you then you have your own skills. So a circle with your own skills. And then below that you have what is helping the organization, what brings value. And for the people that know Ikigai - that's similar. It's a similar approach. I won't go into details, but what is incredibly useful is when you become aware of your own strengths and every whether you're data scientists or in a different role. You always have a few superpowers that other people don't have to the same extent. So if you become really aware of what is my strength, and how can I add - how can I use those skills to add value in the company, then that is where you become very powerful. What makes it tricky is that people always have certain certain people have always certain thoughts about what you should be doing.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:48:16] And that's why you need to be very assertive. And because intrapreneurship is about taking new initiatives to to match your skills with what is desirable for the organization. And it doesn't always match the needs of other people. But that's the way to why you need to be assertive and go for those opportunities that really contribute. So, for example, in the company I worked for a consulting company, I found it a reality very fascinating for for some time was a few years ago. And it was a big trend. And I decided to to organize a big a big event at at Capgemini, the company I was working for. And it was really fun because I could do totally my own thing. It was not there yet. So you're creating something from scratch and it also delivers value to the company. And it was challenging because people said, hey, you know, you have other deliverables. You need to work on a project and I need to make time for it. But for me, those new initiatives are incredibly rewarding for myself and also contributed a lot to the companies I worked for.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:49:24] Last question before we jump into our lightning round. What's the one thing you want people to learn from your story?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:49:30] The most important thing I would say is that emotions are not scary. So Seth Godin said, yes, emotions are there. You shouldn't be overwhelmed by them, but you should just dance with the fear that is really in line with the message in my book. In the past, I was pushing away emotions. I thought, I'm not emotional. I'm a rational guy. I'm an analytical thinker by understanding those emotions and not being afraid to look at it. I could push through the fear and do much more fun things in my professional life as well as personal life, like like bungee jumping and stuff like that. I'm intrigued by that because while you're on the edge of a bridge while bungee jumping, your whole body is Cremes. This is not a good idea. This is not a good idea. And as the emotional elephant speaking. Because the emotional elephant is mainly concerned with being being relaxed and being comfortable. And then you need to push yourself with your rational brain. Like this is really, really something I want to do. So I'm going to push through and just jump. And that's why I'm fascinated with that. So to come back to a question, I think it's incredibly important also for rational people, analytical thinkers, to understand that emotions are relevant. And even if you. Don't believe it for yourself. You're in the world with people full of emotions. I'm not sure if you've tried to change someone's mind just with facts and rational thought. It's it's very difficult.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:50:54] So let's go ahead and jump into our lightning round. Hundred thousand people tell us real quick why you chose that number. Then also, what's the impact that you want to have on these hundred thousand people?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:51:03] Yeah. When I was on my sabbatical, on my world trip around the world, I was I was writing a lot and I saw my in my articles reach 600,000 views. And I thought, OK, this Internet is really incredible and I want to enlarge my impact. That's why I said, OK. I want to - I'm going to help all those people. And I build experience with training, coaching, and I've worked with a lot of data scientists. And I'm going to take the next step. And that's why I decided to that I wanted to impact one 100,000 people. I think given the amount of readers that I've accumulated. This is a good goal. I'm not sure when I'm gonna reach it, but I get incredibly incredible satisfaction from reading emails, personal e-mails from people that say what is the impact for them as an analytical thinker reading my book. That gives me so much satisfaction that I'm really happy.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:51:56] Happy to read that. 

Harpreet Sahota: [00:51:57] We discussed emotional intelligence in great detail today. So barring that, what would you say? It's a topic outside of Data scientists that you think every data scientist should spend some time researching?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:52:09] I would say psychology, but it's really related to emotional intelligence. So I'll skip I'll skip that. What I think everyone can learn a lot from is high performance sports and high performance sports. You need to build the discipline habits. You need to dance with the fear of performing. You need to understand that not every time you're going to succeed, but in the long term, if you make the right choices every every day, you've got to accumulate. You're gonna grow up to a point of really high performance. I wouldn't say that everyone needs to have the ambition to be the number one in the world. I don't think that's necessary. I think what is more important is that you tried to grow every year and every year, every day you make small decisions that all combine up to two really big growth. Not comparing yourself to others, but just to yourself. Am I better than yesterday? And how can I be a better person? Because I've really experienced. If you become a better person and grow as a as a person. Professional career is also going to take off.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:53:09] I like that. High performance athletes - like, you can learn a lot in terms of just mindset, and drive, and motivation from them. Have you read the book, Relentless by Tim Grover?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:53:20] No, I haven't.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:53:21] So Tim Grover, he was the kind of personal coach for Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, Dwayne Wade and a number other professional basketball players. And he wrote a book called Relentless. And in that book, Relentless, he talks about three personas. There's the the cooler, the closer, and the cleaner. If you're into high performance sports and, you know, mindsets of high performance athletes, you really, really get to enjoy that book. Definitely check that out.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:53:45] Thank you for the recommendation. I'm going to check that out.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:53:47] So what's was your favorite hand in poker?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:53:50] I would say is a Jack-Ten suited of hearts

Harpreet Sahota: [00:53:54] So what's the number one book you would recommend our audience read and your most impactful take away from it?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:54:01] Actually, it's in line with what I've just said about sports, because now, look, I would recommend is The Compound Effect, I believe it' by Darren Hardy.  The Compound Effect. So the key message is that all the small decisions that you that you take every no matter how big or small, whether it's to eat Snickers or Kiwi, whether it's to speak up in the meeting or stay silent, whether to approach a girl in a nightclub or not. Everything compounds up to your life. So every every time you make a decision, it's gonna be a decision in the direction you want to go in with your life or not. And if you continually make the right decisions that help building healthy habits, growing as a person. The rest is gonna come. And it's incredible how much difference it is between between those two. And I know it's the light lightning round, but let me quickly elaborate on this, because there's a powerful example. If you take a plane from from Amsterdam, the Netherlands to Kenya and the angle that a plane takes off of with is just one degree to the right or to the left. That makes an incredible difference. So you're not going to end up in Kenya, but instead you're going to end up in Somalia. That metaphor was really powerful for me because it shows that no matter how small the decisions, if you are only one degree off course in the end of your life, you're going to reach completely different destination.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:55:27] That book is really, really good. He's got a lot of amazing illustrative examples. The one that really struck me was the double a penny for a day, every day for a month. And by the end of the month, you'll be a multimillionaire. That was insane. We had compounded. It's a amazing book.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:55:44] So let's talk...

Harpreet Sahota: [00:55:45] What's your morning routine like?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:55:47] Especially in this Corona time, I try to go outside. It's not complete lockdown in The Netherlands. So what I do, I get up at my alarm outside of my dad's, not the snooze. That's what I used to do for a long time. But I get up, I drink a glass of water, eat a banana. Eat some nuts. And then I go out to do some sports. There's some pull-up bars close to my house. Doing some exercise.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:56:12] I just look at the water and the green fields surround me to really start the day slow, but at the same time with with high intensity sports. Then I go back, I eat a healthy breakfast and have a shower. The last few minutes, cold shower. Same as bungee jumping. You need to push through and tell your story, your mind. Hey, I'm the boss here. I'm the boss here. And the emotional elephant can go any way, but I'm deciding what's going to happen. Then I do some meditation. Not long, just ten minutes, like you said. And I enjoy a few minutes in the sun on the bed with my girlfriend.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:56:48] And that's the one thing I haven't been able to incorporate into my routine yet. Is that cold shower? All the books I read talk about the benefits of that. And I'm like, yes, I want all those benefits except that fair that I just the last bit of resistance that I'm facing, I think I better start breaking into that. 

Harpreet Sahota: [00:57:06] If we could somehow get a magic telephone that allowed us to contact 20 year old Gilbert, what would you say to him? First of all, tell us what you're doing at 20 years old and what would you say to him at that point?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:57:18] I was playing poker, actually, when I was 20. And what would I say? I was at the time, I was really, really dependent on the opinions of other people. So I would say, don't think so much about what other people think. I don't care so much because I was so heavily influenced. I was continually adjusting my behavior and depending on the people around me. And I think that's totally unhealthy. It's not authentic. It's not fun.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:57:41] It was not spontaneous. It was all too calculated, way too robotic. So I would say to him. I don't think so much about what other people think.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:57:50] What's the best advice you've ever received?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:57:52] Write down the number one priority of the day. It's incredibly simple, but so powerful.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:57:58] What song do you currently have on repeat?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:58:01] I keep enjoying Eminem till I collapse.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:58:04] I love that song. Good man. Good one.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:58:07] So where can people find part one of your book that you've so generously given out for free?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:58:12] Yeah, they can find it on line speaking. So mindspeaking.com/book. I'm giving away part one for free. You can sign up there.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:58:20] I recommend everybody listening to check that out. We'll definitely include the link to that in the show notes.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:58:25] So how can people connect with you? Where can they find you?

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:58:28] There's ways on LinkedIn so you can find me, Gilbert. And a very last, very difficult last name will put it into comments, I guess. And you're always willing to to have a chat. Let me know. I can help. And I'm curious to hear from you.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:58:44] All right. Well, Gilbert, thank you so, so much for taking time at your schedule to be here on the show and and talk about your work with me. I really, really appreciate you. Thank you so much.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:58:53] Thank you. I really enjoyed the conversation. And you have a lot of knowledge on these topics as well. So I'm sure we're going to talk another time.

Harpreet Sahota: [00:59:01] Definitely, man. Good to have you back for round two at some point.

Gilbert Eijkelenboom: [00:59:05] Appreciate it.