Craig Huse === Vince: [00:00:00] We will come back to these later. I think it's the, the creamy horse rider sauce and the cocktail sauce are pretty self-explanatory. And those are my personal two favorites, which is why they're there. Uh, give us an, give us a heads up on what Bark keep vodka is. Craig: Yeah, we have a spirits line too. Um, and I, I think you mentioned, Vince, that you, uh. You don't drink bourbon. Yeah. And that, that was what we started out with. Uh, we had, Vince: I had been excommunicated by a few friends because of it. Craig: Yeah, yeah. No, I'm in a judgment free zone. Yeah. I mean, if you like Coors Light, I mean, I'm, I'm right there with you, but some IPA guy is gonna judge it like crazy. Um, so anyway, we have a Spirits line and uh, started out with a partnership with Cardinal out of Oh yeah. Cardinal Beverage out of Bloomington. So we can talk a lot about Bloomington today if you want to. And they help. Get us in the game. 'cause we were already in groceries, uh, with the retail cocktail sauce. Yeah. And all the other seasonings and things like that. And, uh, they approached us about doing a, a collaboration project. So I said, well, our number one selling cocktail on the [00:01:00] cocktail list at at our restaurants is the Elmo Cola, which was Right. A, uh, thing that our bartenders concocted, which was a Maker's Mark infused with, uh, luxar cherries and vanilla bean. Okay. And then we'd. Serve it with a side of Coke or Diet Coke and a little glass bottle on the side. So it's kind of like an adult Cherry Cola. Sure. Yeah. And people love it. Still to this day, this has been been a few years now, and so I said, let's do that. And, and it took off, but I said, we're in the retail business. If this rolls, you know, we'll probably take it back into our house. Versus it was more of a. Copack and, and licensing agreement. Yep. Uh, for them producing the product. And it did take off, it, it, we sold like. 18,000 cases, I think in our first 12 months. Nice. Which is pretty solid for a spirit. And, um, and so maybe about a year and a half, two years later, we opened up our own facility and we started doing it ourselves. And they were so helpful too. You know, the guys at, at Cardinal, they knew [00:02:00] it. From the get go and they're, they're advocates for, uh, craft distillers all around Indiana. Anyway, they do a lot of lobbying to help, help their, uh, industry out. And so they were just great partners and helped us get on our feet with our own facility down on the south side of town. So we launched Bar Keep eventually 'cause I was, the first four products were all pre-made cocktails, you know, ready to pour cocktails, espresso, martinis, and cosmos and. The Elmo Cola and an Old Fashioned, and I was like, I'm, I'm not the guy that orders from a cocktail list Typically, I like. My drinks Neat. Or on a, on a large cube or maybe vodka soda. Something simple. Yep. And so I was excited to get a product in that wasn't, you know, ready to pour. Right. And, um, and we, we wanted to be more of a house of brands versus a branded house. We have, uh, and we wanted to be on other restaurants, back bars eventually too, so. Putting Saint Elmo name on it doesn't work. Right. Makes sense. Yeah. So we have a couple new [00:03:00] Lion bar, keep vodka and, uh, rare Saints, uh, whiskeys, which I didn't bring. Okay. I didn't have that in my car, but, well, you had an empty bottle in your car Joe: right on the, down on the floorboard again, you said judgment free now on this. That's right. Well, I'm playing within the rules here. Craig: That's right. Yeah. Somebody's gonna. Remember the, the law's gonna follow me home after this podcast. Right. Good thing this isn't live. I got some time. Yes, yes. Vince: You got Head start. We're good. Yeah. Well, we'll get back to those here a little bit later in the, in the episode, but, uh, uh, I was very curious to hear the, the backstory on Bar keep and, and from a business standpoint. Mm-Hmm. The branding makes sense Craig: from Yeah. I, I think so. Yeah. I mean, we pour so much Tito's and all these other brands and, uh, this is an 86 proof vodka too, so it's six proof higher, so it's great for mixing. Um. Vince: Y Craig: you know, it. The other, kind of, the cool unique thing about this vodka too is it's partnership, uh, with, uh, true Essence Foods, which is the Sati guys. So [00:04:00] Matt Rubin, uh, that had the Sati chocolate, and they have this, uh, flavor balancing patented process. Okay. They're down on Mass Avenue and there's a bunch of Indiana investors in that company right now. Uh, they're doing work all over the world and China and all other places, but, uh, we've got the. The, the license for like a five state patented area for, uh, spirits using their process, which is a high pressure kind of final filtration process that molecularly, uh, takes some of off notes out of certain consumables and Okay. So it takes the bite out of, of the vodka. It's got a super smooth finish. So that's another reason we did an 86 proof. We wanna come out a little higher, which people would think that's gonna be hot if it's a little higher proof. Right. But it's. Super smooth. We tasted against Olly Elite and Kettle and Goose and you know, we were very favorable and the prices right at that Texas vodka that I mentioned. Sure. And maybe a little bit below it, so. Okay. Um, Joe: thought we're having, having fun [00:05:00] with that too. Yeah. I remember reading about the, uh, them, I think in the IBJ some time ago. They had a big writeup about what they do and it was pretty Mm-Hmm. Pretty cool to kind of Yeah. Understand the technology sleep company right here. Yeah, totally. Craig: Yeah. That's got, got a lot of growth potential ahead of them. Yeah. Joe: Sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so we started off by, uh, mentioning one of my favorite words, Bloomington. Yes. Um, and as we kind of transition back into a cold open here, summer is, is winding down. Fall is near, I mean, we're, we're in Indiana, so there's gonna be at least one more week of like 110 degree temperature, somewhere hidden. Hidden around in September. But, uh, we have football season kicking off. And it has kicked off. Yeah, it's the early, yeah. Pardon the pun. It's the very early part of the season. So as Indiana fans, we still have a lot of optimism. Not our hopes have not been crushed yet. Uh, but it's a new era for Indiana Hoosiers football, uh, with the new coach, Kurt Sign, [00:06:00] Netti. They're talking ball games already. I think. I, I read. Well, Craig: there's a chance, it's kind of a dumb and dumber situation, but if there Joe: is one annual tradition, it's IU Football fans saying, is this our year to go back to the Rose Bowl? I mean, it's only been 300 years Vince: we're Joe: due. Vince: Technically we will be September 14th against UCLA. We'll be playing that game in the Rose Bowl. That's true. Yeah, that's Joe: true. Vince: Um, technicality, Craig: I mean, OJ Simpson was playing in the last time IU played, played that game. Right? Joe: 1968. Craig: Why you got, why you gotta go there? Joe: Why you gotta turn the knife? I mean, you, did you grow up in IU fan? I, I, I am still an IU fan. I still am. Other than when they play that team from a little bit east of here and from Happy Valley, Pennsylvania. That's right. Craig: Many Joe: lives not so happy. But, um, so. All right. I wanted to put it out there and just ask the question, what's it like as you being a Penn State grad and a Penn State fan to have our leftovers from a recruiting [00:07:00] perspective? Is that what you mean? Because I, however you want. That's my only chance to throw out a bar. Vince: Is there a new defensive coordinator? Craig: Mm-Hmm. Oh, that's, oh yes, I'm sorry. That's right. We do have a new defensive coordinator. Um, and yeah, I think he's. I, I mean the, the problem is we lose coordinators all the time since we're a really good team and we get recruited every year. So it seems like we're on our probably third defensive coordinator in seven or eight years now. And, um, you know, it's not like the old days where all that staff stayed in place. Um, we're one oh, also, and we're hoping. We, we, Penn State, could never get past Michigan or Ohio State. It seems like they've struggled, uh, in the, in the last five years with that. So with the expanded playoff scenario, up to 12 teams, right. I think we would've been in. The playoffs like four outta the last six years had it been that size. So Hope runs eternal. And Penn State now we're on different, [00:08:00] we have different expectation levels, I think between Indiana football and Penn State Football. Yeah. And so both teams can equally get disappointed early in the season. Uh, that might look. Differently as far as the records go, right? Yeah. Uh, for each school. But there's certain disappointment. There are attendance Vince: still in one game would take IU three to potentially four games to match. Joe: Oh yeah, for Vince: sure. But yeah, stepping Stones, Joe: you're right, you from a bowl's perspective and expectations, you expect to go to one of the major championship bowls. Um. We just wanna go to two able, right. Any bull. Craig: I remember those days with Bill Mallory and we'd go to the Peach Bowl and the Independence Bowl like pretty regularly and yeah. Then we got greedy and I think we let 'em go, didn't we? Down at iu? Yeah. Thinking that there's, we could do better. That's right. True. I don't think we ever did. Vince: True. Well, we maybe be losing part of our audience talking about IU football. Oh. Joe: What do you think? I mean, if they don't, if they're Peruvians, then they should have hit mute a long time ago. That's fair. [00:09:00] Their next game's Craig: gonna be tough. Vince: Yeah. Hey guys. Welcome back to another episode of the Industrious Podcast. Thank you all for joining us from wherever your podcast or if you joining us on the SSA YouTube channel. Thank you for doing so. We greatly appreciate you tuning in. Uh, by the way, if you're on that channel and you haven't subscribed, please do so. You don't have to be an IU football fan, uh, to do it. Uh, we, we, we accept everyone. It doesn't cost you a dime. And also, once you've hit that little subscribe button, hit the little notification bell icon so you can be alerted when new episodes like this one drop. Alright, we've got a spicy [00:10:00] episode for you today. Like that. Um, guest is Mr. Craig Hughes of Hughes Culinary. Craig, welcome to the Industrious Podcast. Hey, great to be here, Vince and Joe. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. Yeah. Uh, we like to start things out by providing a little background intro on our guests. So if you want to, um, kinda give everyone a little background, you know, where you grew up and maybe. Working your way into where you're today. Okay. Craig: Yeah. My, my story started in Bloomington, Indiana, and uh, that's where I was born and raised. Went to Bloomington High School South. I was a panther. And, um, you know, but my, obviously, as all of our stories started, it starts with our parents and my parents were, uh, short ridge graduates Okay. Here in Indianapolis that my father went to IU and ended up staying down in Bloomington eventually. Um, okay. Uh, I think he had a job, one job after college that took him to Cleveland, but then, uh, was back in Bloomington, Indiana, and, uh, that's where the family was raised. He, um, uh, got the opportunity to buy into an [00:11:00] Arby's franchise. He was a manager and operator, and the owner, uh, partner moved on to something else, and so he became an Arby's franchisee. I think he had unit number 60 down on East Third Street in Bloomington. Yeah. And, uh, then went on to no Roman's pizza. So I kind of grew up in a restaurant family. Started working at a restaurant called Mustards. Actually, it was Poor Richards when I started working there. Coombs owned Poor Richards and sold it to my dad and um, um. You know, I started there washing dishes at 14 when that got converted over in 1984. And, uh, I got the bug that, uh, for the restaurants, I just absolutely loved it. And, uh, what's not to love working in a college town restaurant anyway, I mean, I'm 14 years old and. There's all these pretty servers and hostesses there and uh, you know, I'm the young kid. I still sometimes feel like the young kid in the company even though I'm 54. 'cause I always think of how I started. And, uh, that's called Strategery. Exactly. [00:12:00] And then I went, I went off to Penn State, um, school of Hospitality Management. Uh, once I kind of felt like I was, uh, loving the restaurant business, working in the family business. And from there worked for Houston's, uh, Hillstone Restaurant Group. Recruited, uh, on campus and I worked in Washington DC for, uh, a couple years before coming back and rejoining the family business. Yeah. Vince: Let me ask you, so my wife's grew up in most, most of the time at Bloomington. She moved around a, a bit. I think they moved to Bloomington when she was in sixth or seventh grade. Um, she went to Bloomington High School in North, but. She went to Purdue and everyone says, wait, you grew up in Bloomington? You went to Purdue. She, and for her it was, it was kind of expected that you would just go to iu. Like it was just another extension of high school. Yeah. Yeah. And so she just wanted to change. Was it that way for you, or was it more driven by the fact that Penn State had the major hospitality management that attracted you there? Craig: Well, my probation officers said, maybe you should let the fellows on the force [00:13:00] have four years off and, uh, that fair give some relief. So why don't you leave town for a little bit? Uh, I, I felt the same way as your wife did. Yeah. Uh, I just, uh, at that point I had a pretty good idea that I, you know, loved our family business. I was gonna come back to it, and so I didn't even apply to iu. I took that temptation away from myself and, uh, um, so I. I had to look around then. Now the school, the, the, there's several schools that are known for it, Cornell, which I, I did not get into Cornell darn it. And, uh, I'm still bitter about that. Uh, UNL Penn State was more fun though. UNLV has a great program. Okay, that makes sense. Is U and LV more Is Las Vegas more fun than Las Vegas or than maybe, but the name level not graduating, escalates dramatically escalates from, and that's what my mother told me. And so she bad smart lady and there's no way my son is gonna go to, uh, Las Vegas for college. I ended up doing an internship there one summer, so I got, got that out my system, right? And [00:14:00] so Penn State was, uh, where I chose to go and it was great. pr, a great program, still is recognized as a top hospitality school. I met my wife Jill there. Uh, so we are, uh, Penn Staters in the, in the Hughes family. And, uh. We got two 18-year-old kids that are seniors. Okay. At Buff High School that are considering Penn State. So who knows? Maybe Joe: considering, I thought it was just like, you have no choice. There you go. Craig: They have to get accepted. Uh, so that's fair. Yeah. One of, if you want us to pay for college, do Vince: you Craig: want Vince: us Craig: to pay for Vince: a Craig: college? You'll go to Penn State otherwise no. No. They're looking at IU too. Yeah. I wouldn't be mad about them going to Bloomington. That's my hometown and it's close. I love reason to go to Nick's and Right. Yoko and. Totally. And, uh, I know there's something about, you know, driving down 37 and putting some melancamp on your Spotify and town, Vince: especially now when it's like a Craig: 45 minute drive instead of, it's Joe: amazing. A little over an hour. I phenomenal. I might've said to another parent last night on the sideline of a kid's sport [00:15:00] event, I said, I'm not gonna put pressure on Alex, our oldest, who's in Mm-Hmm. Buddies in, in the same, uh, with Carson Peer Group as your, as your kids. But, um. I said, I, I really hope he goes to iu. It's like, I mean, to be able to be that close, but yet also really far away. Yeah. Uh, to be able to see him and also have an excuse to go down to all the establishments. You just mentioned that. Nice. That's right. Craig: Get back and stay at the fraternity house. Relive your days. It's like old school. Maybe, maybe not. You guys could go back like, like, uh, like, uh, will Ferrell and Right. Vince Vaughn did an old school. Fun. Yeah. That'd be fabulous fun. I think Joe: my days of sleeping on the couch in the formal room have, uh, long since, uh, Craig: passed. God, if I did, if, if an alumni did that at the Acacia House at Penn State, they'd end up getting duct taped and sharpie if they probably passed out there. It was not. I agree. Good place to end up. Yeah. Yeah. In which case that or wake up on the same Joe: couch, but the couch is now relocated to the front yard or out on the sidewalk on by the street. Well, Craig: the couch, the couch [00:16:00] started on the sidewalk when the fraternity, uh, gathered it off somebody's trash day. Right. And put it in the club, club room, and now it's going back to the sidewalk. It's, that sounds why it's still never been cleaned. Vince: Um, so I do have a question for, for you. I, yes. And you kinda led, led into this a little bit. When, when did you feel like you knew you wanted to get into the family business? So it's the two-parter. That's number one. Number two, you did do some other things before you came in. If you were talking to the 22-year-old Craig today, would you, and they have the same opportunity, would you recommend they go do something else or somewhere else for a first couple, couple of years before coming to the family business? Craig: Yes. I mean, I think, uh, there's great entry level positions, especially in my industry, for somebody in high school to, to get their feet wet and get exposed to the industry. But then, yes, if you're gonna get your first real position, uh, you know, management or whatever, uh, I would recommend. Uh, in any family business that you [00:17:00] go and, and, and do that somewhere else because family businesses don't really train you at all. I mean, they just, there's no program, at least in, in, in our business. It wasn't like we had a human resources director at the time or anything like that. There's no structure. It's kind of like fill a hole and, and I think that doesn't get the person teed up and plus it doesn't really let them. Build their own confidence as an independent success story somewhere else, you know? And then Sure. Take that back. So I would highly recommend it. I thought, uh, working at Houston's Hillstone Restaurant Group, which are still great operators, was kinda like my graduate degree in the hospitality business. You know, they worked me super hard and mm-hmm. And I learned a ton. I got exposed to some true professionals and I. Took what I could and, and, and brought it back. And I, I've now I recruit from that company or similar type of companies that Sure. That were offsprings of the Hillstone. So, yeah. Uh, to get like-minded [00:18:00] people. It was so great. It was a great experience. Vince: Yeah. Makes sense. Um, was it the experience at 14 working in, in Mustards that really triggered your passion for this industry? Craig: Yeah. I remember, uh, my first memory of really being interested in it. It was in 80, it was summer of 84, and my dad had, I think, acquired, um, uh, a Rick Coombs restaurant there. And, and, uh, we were, we were doing a family vacation in California. We went to the Summer Olympics. Okay. We went to San Francisco. My oldest sister had just gotten married, so it was just my middle sister or my middle sister who's older than me and my parents. We went out there and my dad was. Trying to hit every restaurant that he could to get ideas to bring back for his new acquisition that was gonna be, uh, mustards in Bloomington. And he is taking pictures and I'm helping him steal menus and all this stuff. And it was very intriguing, just the whole thought process of [00:19:00] designing Sure. A, a new concept. So that kind of got me excited. And then, uh, I jumped in as a dishwasher and you, you know, had an interview with the GM who was still one of my security questions. You know, who was your first, first name or your first boss or whatever. Uh, um, so Bob Meyer, uh, interviewed me, grilled me, and I didn't know how to answer. I'm 14 years old, right? My mom had to drive me to the restaurant just to get interviewed and, and, uh, you know, in hindsight was probably a sure thing, right? But he still kind of put me through the ringer and. And then I learned how to figure eight, you know, a mop stick and, and, and work all the positions, uh, in the restaurant. And it was cool. I mean, it just, uh, I think restaurants are, uh, just like sports. There's just the. It's such a people intensive business that the comradery builds very quickly and there's on busy nights or shifts, there's just a lot of intensity and teamwork and collaboration that goes on. And so I really fell in love with that part of it. And [00:20:00] um, and still today it's the employees, uh, even more so than the guests that. Um, I show up to work for every day. Like at our office, uh, downtown. We have a wall and it's photos of a number of, you know, probably 40 of our key employees over, over the time. And it's just kind of a reminder that's who we go to work for every day from a leadership position is, uh, you know, we help support their career. They. They support the guest experience and you know, it's a circular success story there. So, uh, I love the employees. I love the, a lot of my friends are guests and Sure. And that's, that's what I loved about fine dining versus. Quick service restaurants, which my dad was very much still loves quick service restaurants. Uh, and I, I, he said, make your money in quick service and then you can go dine in the nice restaurants. And, and, uh, once I got my experience at Houston's, I kind of never looked back. Uh, I mean, I, I did look back, but [00:21:00] my heart was kind of in fine dining and so our company kind of split eventually from the. Arby's Heartland Beef Side, uh, which we had up to, I think 36 units at one point. Okay. And some other concepts. Sure. Uh, and to Saint Oma, which launched the, the more, the fine dining side of our business, which I ran. Right. So in, Vince: in, in 1986, um, when the Saint Alma's opportunity happened, I was pretty too young to to know, but I assume that at that time, St. ELs was already an icon. Restaurant here in Indy. Craig: Yeah. Vince: Um, to the extent you can share, like how did that opportunity come about? Was it a place that your dad, I mean, it's kinda like the, the holy grail, if you will. I assume so. Had your dad already been ping him like, man, I'm from Indy. I would love to own that someday. Craig: Uh, yeah. So it was 84 years old, so obviously it Vince: had Craig: been around a while. Successful. Yeah. Uh, although downtown was a little bit different then. It was very sleepy at the time. It was sleepy. And, uh, Harry Roth and Isador Rosen were the owners of it, [00:22:00] and they didn't have any family interest in the business. My dad was, uh, in the restaurant business already. Quick service. Mm-Hmm. With Noble Romans, Arby's, and, uh, most of the bankers and the attorneys and things like that were up in Indianapolis. So he'd have dinner at Harry, at St. Elmo Sure. And, um, got to know them and, and they had no family interested in the business. I. I think it wasn't quite as sure of a thing as it looks like in hindsight, like you have people said, don't do it. I mean, I can show you pictures of what the storefront looked like back then and it's a lot subtly different and looks kind of dilapidated. Uh, there wasn't a lot of money reinvested back into the business for a number of years. Um, I've run into people said, yeah, I wanted to buy it and got out, bid by your dad or whatever. But, um, I think. His advisors were kind of split on whether to do it or not do it. Sure. And he did it. And obviously it's been one of the best decisions that he ever made. I've, I've been a beneficiary of, I'm trying to leave in a better place than we [00:23:00] found it as well. And uh, the first year that he operated it, it made like. 150,000 more than it did the year before. And so I said, the banker said, what did you do? And he said, I just reported all the income. Oh yeah. I didn't even have a point of sale system or anything. It was a lot of, I Joe: just, you know, followed Gap Craig: uhhuh. It was a non gap. Joe: More cash was used back then than there is today, that's for sure. That's great. So going back in time a little bit, we've talked about your father when he. Graduate iu. Steve Craig: Hughes, I don't even know if I've said his name yet. Yes. Yeah. Steve Hughes. Steve, a legend in That's right in my mind. Joe: Um, and my, and my good friend. Did he have, when he graduated from iu, was his intent to get into the restaurant business or did that just happen? I think that. He fell into that. That was just a job. Craig: Yes. Joe: Yeah. Think I need a job. I graduated college. Think Craig: fell into, he worked for a company called Randburg, which I think was a paint coating business out of Ohio. Yeah, I TW or randburg? Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. He was their top sales [00:24:00] person, junior salesperson for well, now speaking something. Yeah, exactly. Okay. And then, I don't know what brought him back to Bloomington, but there was this op, I think he worked at like a boat sales place. And he was, he was sales. He was business all the way. Yeah. And somehow he got involved with this. Guy that was, uh, got the rights to do the first Arby's and I, I don't know if it was in the state of Indiana, but definitely down there in the southern part. And, uh, so he was the operating manager and the, the guy, like I said, moved on to something else and yeah, and my dad was able to buy him out and then just kept, kept rolling into restaurants after that, never looked back. Joe: Well, if, if I'm in Steve's shoes and I have to choose between living in Toledo, Ohio where Randburg is based, or Bloomington, Indiana, that's a pretty easy decision. Craig: Yeah, that was a great idyllic place to grow up and just, you know, you could ride your bike everywhere and Yep. Um. Uh, just college towns. And now, now Joe, you're talking about, Alex is starting to look at schools and [00:25:00] it's fun to go on these campus visits and, and for me, just every, I want to go to every campus I can. 'cause they just remind me of Bloomington, Indiana. I love it. I love the atmosphere of a college town. Joe: Yeah, Craig: definitely. So Joe: I wanna fast forward a little bit. You know, we've had guests on here from a variety of industries, from healthcare to banking, construction, manufacturing, et cetera. But seldom do we have someone. I mean, you obviously bring a different perspective of being in the hospitality industry, uh, but you also bring a different perspective than a lot of our guests in that family owned business. And a transition or a succession plan that's that's taken place. Can you talk to that about what, what did that look like for you and your father or your family in general? Mm-Hmm. Um, and, and, and what were some of the things that you thought went really well that you may have had planned out, or some things that were curve balls and, and how do you handle that for, for, for listeners who may be in a family business or have some sort of succession planned that they need to Mm-Hmm.[00:26:00] Be thinking about. Craig: Yeah. Well, we talked about working somewhere else first. Um, and then, uh, you know. He, my story is he had a partner that, you know, they got sideways together, uh, in St. Elmo. And, and so there was a separation and so he had to buy that partner out. And I'd only been there for, uh, since February of 97. And, and this, and that's when I started, is to help be the new regime, you know, management supervision of St. Elmo Steakhouse in February of 97. Well, that litigation really didn't get worked out. For a couple years and then, you know, my dad just gave me the biggest gift ever is being able to buy that 49% ownership piece from his partner in San Amo out. And I had just turned 30, like a month ago. And uh, here I'm 49% owner of St. Elmo. Uh, [00:27:00] you know, he had to guarantee. The note, the, the Santa Inc guaranteed the note, right? Steve Hughes guaranteed the note, but you know, I had to perform and so that enough distributions, uh, were created that the note would be paid and tax consequences. So I didn't see any money for, you know, years because I was Right. So in debt. So on one hand you're like, holy Vince: shit, this is awesome. Craig: Yeah, yeah. The other hand you're like. Holy shit. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Right, exactly. And the, and the appraisal of the business didn't even come out to meet what I was committed to buying the other partner out for. So that was a little challenging too. So I didn't even get a sweetheart deal at the time. And, but, uh, it's really, and, and I talk about that to be able to have. Control of your own schedule. And these are things that I try to convey to my kids too. Yeah. I mean, what a gift and the time value of being able to invest in something at a young age and, and have that, uh, growth [00:28:00] opportunity and getting that debt paid down and, and building up the, the value of the business was great. Um, from success, you, I, so that was how I got in. And so I don't know if that's a traditional. Way of getting into the business at all, uh, from an, from an ownership perspective. And then we've done some estate planning obviously since then and taken advantage of, of, you know, he's 82 now and still involved from a, from a, you know, eyes on the business and, you know, guest perspective type of thing. But he pretty much re claims. He retired at 50, um, and. Of course he's still very involved now in a way too. Sure. So I, like, I, I don't think he quite retired at 50 and uh, he's probably more involved sometimes now than he should be at 82. Right. So it's like, uh, but, but he has a great eye for things. He is always kind of points out, [00:29:00] uh, some opportunities to me and, and when things get. Scaled to where we have six restaurants now and, uh, you know, he'll zero in on like something like, you know, a condiment that wasn't perfect at one of the restaurants or something like that. And so that's fair. That dials me back in. It's all about the fundamentals and Right. He's always gonna be a, the fundamental of hot food, hot and cold food, cold and service. Right. And attention to detail type of thing. So, Vince: yeah. So you hit on one of the key things I, two more things. I had noted down one one of 'em, which was, so you've got this iconic restaurant. But you can't rest on the laurels. Like you still have to do the things that got to that status, but at the same time, still try to innovate in some way without little ways ruining what Yeah. What built the place. Yeah. And I think you guys have done that very well. Um, even more so than that. Um, and we get this question all the time. Like, oh, you know, you're just riding your dad's coattails. You can put it on cruise. Like, I don't think, I think the three of us, none of us are cruise control guys. Mm-Hmm. Like, we always, we we're [00:30:00] happy. We're, we're, we're, we're. You know, fortunate to have a building block, a foundation, if you will, but what's next? How can we improve upon that? And so kudos to you for, um, taking Hughes Culinary and, and going, not just improving St. Elmo's, but, but going beyond that and the products and the other restaurant concepts and I mean, the proof's in the pudding. You guys have been pretty successful at those. Craig: Yeah, well that amazing platform that he extended my way. And it's the same as your family business too, uh, was quite a. A nice secure platform to take some risks and, uh, expand the brand. And all, all of our extensions have been just that. I mean, they've been extensions, uh, obvious extensions of Mm-Hmm, of St. Elmo. Uh, if it's our taking our most iconic menu dish, the Saint Elmo Shrimp cocktail, and putting that cocktail sauce in a jar, I mean, that's not a, you know, an idea that is revolutionary at all. Like, if you can lean into. Something that you're really good at [00:31:00] and you're really well known for even throughout the country, then why not try to do it tough? I suspect you sell a few of those. Yeah, we do. Vince: We do. I know I Craig: buy Vince: a couple, what is pieces of them? The CRI cocktail sauce. I've never heard of it. Right. That is my favorite holiday gift to send out to certain customers because. I mean, it is what it is. We'll buy a couple cases and I'll put in another, like a holiday card and send it off around. My favorite Joe: tradition is having someone, particularly to the restaurant that's never, yeah. That's not familiar with it. And, and just being like, oh, this, you got really lather on there. Like, it's just, it's so good. And then just seeing the expression, you're like, yes, that was classic. We did that. It might be a little mean, but yeah. We, about a year ago, love seeing that we Vince: acquired a business in Pittsburgh, had a management meeting here in Indy. Um. The guy from Pittsburgh came, I don't know that he, I don't know if he would, he would even heard of s or not. But anyway, we, we didn't say anything. We like guys, don't tell him shit about the shrimp cocktail. So we go in there and we sit down like, oh yeah, we'll take eight shrimp cocktails, whatever. And sure enough did, did that, didn't even, didn't say anything and just took the biggest [00:32:00] bite and we all kinda sat there and watched and it's all of a sudden his face was like, holy shit. We love, we love watching that, that, yeah. No reactions. Never gets old. Joe: No. Never gets old. No. Um, so in your world, um. You know, we constantly in the news cycle right now, particularly 'cause it's an election year, so you hear everything from, you know, soup to nuts, uh, about the economy. The economy is amazing, the economy is terrible and everything in between. In your world, what are some of the economic indicators that you guys kind of track to see? What revenue cycle might look like, you know, down the road. Craig: Yeah, we, I mean, I, I read and look at, you know, listen to Bloomberg Radio, Tom Keen in the morning, try to, try to get a pulse for it. We don't have a pipeline really, so to speak, of like a lot of businesses do. I mean, our pipeline could be, you know, days out. Uh, you know, obviously we have some reservations and bookings that go further than that, but, uh, it's pretty short. So I think we're. We tend to be a leading indicator [00:33:00] a lot of times to other industries because of, you know, you can dial it back very quickly, uh, expense, uh, meal and entertaining meal and entertaining expenses and any corporation, which is where steakhouses really thrive in that. Mm-hmm. Business to business and government type of entertaining. Um, and what we typically see it is in our cost of goods. So wouldn't we kind of have a hedge in that, in a way where. Sales trends are going down, our cost of goods tend to fall too. And so sometimes our profitability can look pretty, pretty flat, even in a down cycle from sales perspective, because just when demand falls, uh, all the food things also tend to fall. And our, uh, our business runs. So center of the plate that the food costs. Portion of, of the ticket is much higher than most restaurants too. And so, uh, that can work for us and against us in good times. It [00:34:00] really. Jumps up in the last three, three years, it's really been pressed, uh, pretty high. Um, where I think every restaurant is, we've all read about, and grocery stores are raising prices like weekly it seems like, to keep, keep their head above water. And now that's kind of settled down now. Uh, but yeah, I think we're a leading indicator and, um. You know, we are, uh, the great thing about restaurant industry, we, we tend not to have layoffs. You know, we tend to be an employment solution for other industries. Mm-hmm. Manufacturer, whatever that have layoffs and things like that. So I was, uh, the unemployment tax is something I don't love restaurants. I. Paying the same, same deal as other industries do because we tend to never have layoffs and, and, uh, but we pay into it and we have a lot more people and a lot more, uh, natural turnover, uh, just because of quick service restaurants, and it's just a first job for a lot of people. And so, you know, that money gets paid into the first, I don't remember, so many thousands of dollars, so, Mm-Hmm. [00:35:00] And, uh, our industry gets hit a little bit harder than that. So, I, I don't know if I answered your question, Joe, but, um. Vince: You Craig: know, we we're in it for the long haul. All of our decisions are based on 10 year, 20 year. I mean, it takes so much to, um, invest in restaurants now and we have a project. Um, our first project outta state is, uh. Aimed it in Paradise Valley, kind of outside of Scottsdale, and that's like an $11 million, you know, project to open up a single restaurant. You know, so it's, you know, you have to really think long and hard about how that's note's gonna get paid off and the commitment that you gotta have to the, the real estate underneath it on top besides that. And so, uh, we really have to gear our whole business model towards, uh, a long term. Uh, you know, perspective Mm-Hmm. Where it's, it's, it's a 20 year payoff, you know, for, for, for restaurants that, that are [00:36:00] capital intensive, like ours are. Joe: Yeah. I don't know what the, I don't know the, the numbers inside, uh, the restaurant world, but I would say on the amount of upfront capital takes to open one, the, the timeframe for the return on capital oscopy fairly long, unless it just, I mean, I don't know how, what killing it means, but that's. Significant. Craig: Yeah. Downstroke. Yeah. We don't tend to really get into the black for a couple years. And, and that's, that's ideal. I mean that getting into the black might just be, uh, you know, an EBITDA version of that. Right. Uh, and, and, and it's, it's contributing to, you know, general and administrative overhead of the corporate office and that kind of thing before we finally start, uh, you know, getting some sales success and efficiencies. It just takes a long time. Again, we have, we have 800 and. 30 employees. I think right now we only have really five street side restaurants. We have an airport operation that, um, only one of those employees falls under, uh, as the six restaurants. So [00:37:00] it's just takes so many people, uh, it's. I, I, I'm envious of any industry that like real estate and, uh, takes, right. You know, seems like everybody wealthy in this city is in real estate. Now I keep, what am I doing here? We're shopkeepers and, uh, kind of Joe: conversation very similar to the employers. It's funny you said it's like how, how many times we've said, well, this investment is, uh, the net income is red, but they're covering their management fee. So that's the best start we can, that's all Craig: we have. We have a couple of those at any given. Yeah. Yeah. Joe: Uh, speaking of real estate, so I don't, you know, if, if you want to, to, uh, you know, Tom on this, you can, but you have a new owner, I presume, of your San Ammo and downtown Harry Izzy's location. Is that correct? That's true. That's true. True. And there's gonna, we be a significant investment both in capital, but obviously construction and, and renovation. Can you speak to what that, what are, are there negative impacts in the short term on the business and long term? [00:38:00] Are you one of those tenants, uh, for lack of a better term, that's, you know, maybe sees a, a, a really positive Craig: long-term outlook on it? It's exciting and scary at the same time for us. 'cause that restaurant here in Izzy's and St. Elmo right next to it, and we own our real estate at St. Elmo and we actually lease. Air rights to, um, to now the Hendricks group, uh, that, that, that bought it from, um, from the, I guess, circle Center partnership or whatever it was. Mm-Hmm. That, uh, so it's a little bit of both. It's a mixed bag for me. Um, I, obviously, circle Center Mall needed a complete reset. It's been, uh, been struggling for years. Everybody knows that. There's no, no hiding that. And, uh, our restaurant's not really been dependent on that thing. Goodness. You know, a lot of times restaurants are paying the highest square footage, cost of any kind of development, and we're the beneficiaries of the co-tenancy. But I've [00:39:00] really been challenging landlords and negotiations now that I think that restaurants are the driver, driver of the Tennessee now. Mm-Hmm. Uh, they're, they're struggling to find retail tenants and, and. Restaurants are, are really part of the amenity and driver of any, any development now. So, uh, there's gonna be construction underway. We already have it with the, the Hilton project going on. Uh, Cigna, uh, is that how you say it? Um, mm-Hmm. And then, uh, with the development, I've only gotten early glimpses of, of the plans. Uh, I think they're really, they won that bid and then they kind of paused. And now the, now they're starting to get on the bid process. So, you know, we we're a tenant here in Izis and might get impact. We might get spliced, you know, I, I don't know what that is. They have certainly want us there. We've been the, probably the leading, uh, rent contributor, uh, for that development for 15 years now. And, uh, but some of the plans might. Might be pretty [00:40:00] significant. And so, uh, so yeah, if you take away a temporarily take away a restaurant that's doing $13 million in sales or something like that, it gives me a little anxiety. 'cause I'm glad we have other diversifications now and restaurants and other parts, uh, of Indianapolis and, and growing. But yeah, I I, it's gonna be great for Indianapolis, no doubt. But it's gonna take, uh, it. Personally, it's going to, we're gonna take some hits for maybe a couple years. During that process, Joe: do you think any of the residential density that may, may come from it benefits you long term or is it No. Yeah, Craig: I think everything benefits us long term. Yeah. Whether it's residential or office or whatever they, they have planned, uh, I think they have some exciting new, unique, uh, retail and experiential things planned, uh, for the site. But you never know what the developer is. Right. They all kind of spitball and throw out some names and. They have some, some, you know, reach kind of tenants that they want to have, and then they use those names to attract some other reach tenants, and then they kind of figure out what, [00:41:00] you know, who actually sticks, you know, as you throw all those noodles against the wall. And, and so it's a little early for me to, to get a, a good grasp of that. But I will say here in Dizzy's will be a tenant there for sure. I just dunno what that looks like yet. Right. That's fair. That's Joe: all right. Write it while you got it. Vince: Uhhuh. Right. Well, Craig, wrapping up, um, what would you say, again, no pun intended, or maybe, maybe there is, but what would you say the secret sauce is at for not just San Amos, but Hughes Culinary overall in terms of the success of each concept and what you're trying to stay true to with, with the growth of each? Craig: Yeah. I mean, people talk about culture all the time. I think that's what. A lot of our inside insider guests that are extremely loyal and frequent to our restaurants and certainly our employees, uh, think that we just have a super strong culture and that, and that's hard to maintain as you grow. Mm-Hmm. And, uh, that's always been the challenge. Uh, [00:42:00] uh, you know, right now we're local owner and operators that know most of the staff all by name, and they know me and. And, um, and our team. Um, so I, I think that that's gonna be a challenge for us as we move forward. I mentioned we're looking at, uh, having a development, uh, a multi-restaurant development, uh, in, in Arizona. And that'll be a real challenge for us, uh, because we just, we just cherish this. Culture that's been created and, and it's, I guess it's born out of a 1902 restaurant, um, that is very authentic and genuine. Yeah. And, uh, we lean into it very hard and we don't need to take. Cut any corners or do anything that would denigrate that, uh, we all view ourselves as stewards of St. Oma Steakhouse, uh, versus owners. I, my dad and I look at ourselves as stewards. I think our whole team of employees are stewarding that iconic restaurant that really belongs to City of [00:43:00] Indianapolis and. Just having that mentality of that location, I think just spawned to all of our other ones. You know, we are just, we're creating what we think are, are community assets that we hope will be here for a long time after. After we're gone. And, uh, the one, like I said, we're trying to leave into a much better place and we found it. The other ones we're creating and, uh, trying to create that community asset that people love. That's true to Indianapolis. And that's cool that you give gifts. 'cause I think that's part of it too. Like it's this's a symbol of Indianapolis, right. Uh, some of these brands and, and, uh, that's. Uh, that's, that's where we're at, I think with, with our Hughes culinary culture is just, uh, and we have a, we have Vice President culture and learning and we, we really, really try to drive into, um, you know, being different than other restaurants, uh, and doing things that, you know, we put the names of our entire staff on the back of St. Mo's [00:44:00] menu. I mean, how many restaurants could do that? Because we hold onto these, uh, people for so long and, uh, you know, we give. Holidays off like 4th of July, Memorial Day and Juneteenth and things like that. Just 'cause we want this to be a true career for people and, and I think the guests appreciate the quality of, of, of Steward that we attract and, and maintain. By doing those things, you know, they might not be thrilled that, you know, they couldn't get in on Labor Day or whatever, but Right. But, uh, you know, we're not Chick-fil-A we're not closed every Sunday, but we're trying to be dynamic and thoughtful of treating our team as, uh, as peers and partners in the business. And, and that's worked. Worked for our organization. Yeah. Clearly. I mean, that's, Vince: that's evident in how long some of your employees have been there. I mean, that's, that, that's probably also, I mean, I, I've seen it where guests enjoy coming back because they're gonna see John or Jane Doe, who they've known for 10 years. Yeah. [00:45:00] And that, that's pretty, pretty, pretty telling and the mentality. Yeah. They, they, Craig: they, they, I mean, they've got their real estate, the servers and bartenders have their real estate. They're like. You know, they're capitalistic entrepreneurs that are developing their section or their room or their eight feet of the bar and Yeah. And they develop relat relationships. Joe: Yeah. Craig: Yeah. Joe: I mean, how many times come say, here's my card and you, when you make a reservation and ask for me, ask for my section, whatever, and just, you know, I'm sure there's a churn there of people that say, I want, you know, John's section, I wanted be John to take care of me tonight. And Yeah, to have it, to be able to, to, to make something that is very transactional, become relational, uh, is, is. Pretty, pretty impressive. Yeah. I, Craig: I, I think everybody that serves a 40 or $50 steak is serving a pretty good 40 or $50 steak, so you gotta look at all the other things that you're trying to do to make it a unique and genuine experience. So that's, that's what we do without backing off the quality. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Quality first. Right. [00:46:00] All the time. All right, cool. Vince: Yeah. Sounds, but before we go, sounds, I do have, we do have, we do have one thing I gotta do Joe: with me. We're only gonna talking Is this, is this a shrimp free cocktail? Yeah. Vince: This, this is shrimp free. Joe: So, um, oh my god. Chris's ears Vince: are bleeding with the uh, right crackling in the audio. Yeah. One thing, and, and I know I'm not alone in this, uh, if you go to any of the Hugs, culinary restaurants that has the iconic shrimp cocktail, you get through the shrimp and you look in your bowl and you find that, Hey, I still have sauce in here. And if you're like me or many others, you realize, hey, certainly don't wanna waste that sauce. So you got saltines I usually have on a little plate, and, uh, why, why wouldn't you not want to take the, uh, the sauce and add it to some. Some crackers and Joe: you know, I always destroy their profit margin by asking for extra saltines. 'cause I like to put my shrimp on the cracker with the sauce. Craig: We're thing that's really, uh, that saltine really is dipping into our profitability there. Mm-Hmm. Well, you know, [00:47:00] I don't know how my kids would gonna go to college. Good batch. That's a good batch. So yeah, this is, um, I mean we grind the horseradish fresh every day at the restaurant. We small batch. Uh, the cocktail sauce. So it's, uh, we take the root. Um, the root very seriously. Um, and, uh, just the simple preparation. Joe: Yeah. That one to put something Craig: shelf stable. Like we're having the retail St. Ommo cocktail sauce that can be found, which I'm Joe: swear to God, you guys like extra. You put that's higher rock chain, just so you can get the, like, the key to the shelf life. 'cause when you, a fresh one, you're like, holy crap. Craig: Yeah. It's got a seven month shelf life. It would really have a shelf life for eternity because there's so much spice and acid in, in, in it. Uh, but for the spiciness it's seven months and we put a natural horseradish extract in addition to the base recipe that we use at the restaurant in there to, uh, because the mixture of the tomato and the horseradish will [00:48:00] make it mild. Like if you Okay. Got a quart of sauce from St. Elmo, uh, that was made at St. Elmo and took it home by. The next night it would be pretty mild. Oh really? Okay. So we have to add a little extra natural horseradish extract to the retail version. Well, thank Vince: you for doing that. And Craig: we, we make it really high and then it, you know, if, if you have a jar of it in the first month or two of production versus the fifth or sixth month, it's gonna be unnaturally hot for you. Gotcha. Yeah. Vince: Okay. Good to know. Alright, cool. Well still got it, Craig. Still got it. Thank you for doing that. Um, thank you for coming on, taking the time out. And, uh, and joining us today. We appreciate it. Um, and, and thank you, your father and everyone at Hughes Culinary for doing your thing. I know we visit the different restaurants on a, uh, fairly frequent basis and, and always enjoy our Craig: experiences. Well, thank you, uh, for the patronage and, you know, all the listeners that come up and visit restaurants like Santa Monica here in Izzy's, we're so thankful for [00:49:00] that community support and, um, we're. I wanna reflect well back on our community and be active participants. It's, it's, you know, we, we, we really value this, the, what we've received from Indianapolis. You know, we, we really like to keep all the money here. We try to hire and buy things locally and the law firms and the banks and all this stuff. And we're in a town that's really dominated by outta state. Restaurants and Yep. Um, you know, with the exception of Cunningham Group and Hughes and, and a few others, um, that we're all pretty close knit community. We all work well together, the local restaurateurs, but, uh, we really, uh, depend on, on that local community and, and, and there they've been such great advocates for us over the years. Uh. And yeah. And they were flying on a plane and talking us up, uh, to somebody that's coming to Indianapolis. Those kind of conversations, that just means a lot to us. Vince: Absolutely. Alright, cool. Thank all you guys for joining us on this episode of the Industrious Podcast. We [00:50:00] appreciate you guys joining us from wherever you get your podcast. Uh, by the way, don't forget your pick up some, uh, St. Amos Shrimp cocktail sauce, also this creamy horse rash sauce. Personal favorite of mine. Shout out to the dry rub, actually joined the dry rub. The dry rubs good. Uh, anyway, check out all the different products they have. Um, if you like this episode, hit us up on the comments. If you have some experiences at any of the either CL mills or any other hug culinary restaurants, throw out some comments. Throw out, uh, what were your, your, your best, your favorite experience, whether it was the first time you ever tried the cocktail sauce, things of that nature. We'd love to hear it. Until next time, guys, don't forget, be industrious.