Rich Deakman === DREAMBIGINTRO-SERDULA: [00:00:00] Welcome to dream big with big dreamers conversations for career growth, inspiration, and insight. It's time to dream big. Introduction and Welcoming Rich --- Donna Serdula: Hey Rich, thank you so much for joining me. Rich Deakmann: ~Absolutely. ~Good morning. Donna Serdula: Good morning. ~So, so ~Rich, I've always wanted to have a recruiter on this podcast ~and, ~and you're the first one. ~So ~thank you so much. ~Uh, we, ~I've got so many questions for you, ~you know, ~with Dream Big with Big Dreamers and what I do for a living with, ~you know, ~resumes and LinkedIn profiles, ~you know, ~everyone has these, ~you know, ~dreams ~of, ~of intersecting with a recruiter and, Awesome opportunities landing ~on their, ~on their laps ~and, and, and everyone has stories.~ ~And, and I really just, ~I look forward to, ~you know, kind of ~picking your brain and understanding how all of this works. ~But, you know, ~before we jump into our conversation, can you give me a little bit of ~a, you know, just ~a brief bio on who you are and what you do Rich's Background and Company Overview --- Rich Deakmann: Absolutely. So, Rich Diekmann, I started a company in 1990 called MDSI, Management Decision Systems, Inc., with a couple of other people that I still work with today. And we specialize in executive search for [00:01:00] software, SaaS, cloud services. Technology sales, salespeople specifically. We handle the whole country cause there's six of us. I focus just on Chicago. ~So ~we break it down by region and basically we'll work with any company that has a story that's growth where they're in a hot market where they can attract a players. We try to work with only the A players, which I know that's very subjective and it's hard to determine who an A player is. It's an opinion, but there are some facts that can back that up as well. So. That's what we've been doing. And I've been doing that for the last 39 years. So it'll be 40. Next June. The Value of External Recruiters --- Donna Serdula: and, ~and why would it, ~why would a company go to a firm like yours? ~is, is there, ~is there something that you guys bring rather than just. ~You know, ~having a internal recruiting, ~uh, ~team~ or what are the other,~ ~Oh God.~ ~would they go for you? What, what's, what, how does that work?~ Rich Deakmann: Absolutely. I mean, not to trash internal recruiters, but it's a whole different type of sale when you're an external recruiter and especially the way we do it, we do it regionally. So we become experts in that area. So like [00:02:00] I said, Chicago is my area. For 39 years. So I know people, they know me, we have relationships over the years from constantly talking to them, placing them, placing their kids now in a lot of cases. ~So you develop these really deep relationships with candidates that is very, very hard to find. ~So when hiring managers are looking for people and they're all, if they're only relying on internal recruiters, chances are good. And I would say it's 99%. They don't know these people. They don't have the relationship. So they're starting from scratch in most cases, trying to get to know them. And a lot of these people will not answer. A LinkedIn message from an internal recruiter just because ~they don't, and they don't, and especially if ~they don't know them or never heard of them, they're not likely to answer in most cases. So they can't really get to them. They don't answer ads. They're not applying for jobs, quote unquote. So when they really need good people and they need them quickly, they will go to somebody like me and my company cause we handle all the major cities. So let's say this company is expanding in New York, California, Chicago, Texas. We have four different [00:03:00] recruiters, but we're all one company. So it'll all be the same terms. We work with the same people. We know the same contacts and we each focus on our area. ~So I can get to somebody in a week that might take them three months to get to. And it's just,~ Building Long-Term Relationships --- Donna Serdula: relationship. Rich Deakmann: yes. Donna Serdula: you, they've known you throughout their career. ~They've probably been placed by you~ Rich Deakmann: Right. Donna Serdula: But ~when you, when you, ~when you have something and you know it would be a good fit for them, they know you, they trust you and ~they're going to, ~they're going to answer your calls. Rich Deakmann: They will respond. I have their text numbers. I text them, they text me back. They'll refer people to me. And that's not to say that I know everyone, because you can't possibly know everyone, especially now this market is huge, ~but knowing people helps you know more people.~ Donna Serdula: Yeah. Rich Deakmann: If I know you and I ask you, just like you know me through Mark Finick, you know, I would just call Mark and say, Hey, listen, you're connected to her. Can you help me get her number? ~a conversation going. ~And before you know it, there's credibility and you just build relationships. ~And I, ~I talked to somebody today, I might not place them for 10 years. I might be working with them for 10 years before I actually placed them. That's how it works. It's the long game, but it becomes the short game when somebody needs help. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Rich Deakmann: ~know what I mean by that? ~Okay. Donna Serdula: ~why don't, why don't you, ~why don't you explain what you mean Rich Deakmann: Okay. ~So it's a long game. ~So [00:04:00] let's say ~I'm, ~I'm calling people all day long that are in my space in Chicago that are software salespeople. They might not be looking for a job. They might be as happy as hell, which is normally the case. 95 percent of the time I'll call somebody. They're like, no, thanks. I'm not looking. And I'll say something like, that's great. Cause I don't have anything for you anyway. I'm just calling to get to know you because one day you will be looking. You are going to look, you're going to change jobs and it wouldn't be a bad idea for you to know who I am and for me to know you because we can establish this relationship for whenever you are looking. And that could be tomorrow, for all you know, with these layoffs that we're having, or it could be 10 years from now. I don't care. You know, we'll get to know each other and then I'll stay in touch every nine months, every year, maybe every two years. I'll ping them. And you build that relationship. That's the long game. But the short game is if now you're a hiring manager and you call me and you say, Rich, I need somebody in Chicago that has this, this, this, and this. Now, I have 150 people to call right away that I know, right. And I'll narrow that [00:05:00] down to 20 and then to five. ~And ~some of them might be the people I just spoke to. ~I'll just, ~Hey, I know you told me you weren't looking. However, I just got this opportunity. It looks really good. ~Any, any, and then sometimes that opens up, ~you never know. Donna Serdula: You know, ~and, ~and in the opposite way, right, in the inverse, I remember when I was in sales, my very, ~my, ~almost my last position where, ~you know, ~before I became a business owner and I was still an employee, I remember, ~you know, the, ~the recruiters ~would, ~would call and a lot of my colleagues would be like, I'm happy I hang up on the recruiter. They used to treat the recruiter so horribly. I never did. I never. Rich Deakmann: Smart. Donna Serdula: I remember ~I said to, ~I said to my colleagues, ~I'm like, ~you should be nice to that guy because that guy has ~your next, ~your next opportunity in his back pocket. And if you don't treat him nice today, he's not going to come back tomorrow when you need it. Rich Deakmann: It's smart. Donna Serdula: ~I, I, ~I really think that having these relationships, especially now, ~and it's, it's, ~it's with everything to, you know, ~it's, ~it's not just with recruiters. It's having that relationship with people who do branding. It's [00:06:00] having those relationships with people who do networking and groups and you do this and do that. Like you need to have that network because it's going to be there for you. Rich Deakmann: A hundred percent. Donna Serdula: So here's my question. Rich's Origin Story --- Donna Serdula: When you were a little boy, you want to grow up to be a recruiter? Rich Deakmann: Oh my God. Okay. So no, ~um, ~I had no idea what a recruiter was probably for the first three months or four months that I was actually a recruiter. ~I had no idea what a recruiter was. ~Do you want me to tell you my origin story? Donna Serdula: it. ~I want to hear it.~ Rich Deakmann: All right. So 1985, I just turned 21, I, ~uh, ~April, I turned 21 and I graduated college in May. In June, I was hired by a company to be a recruiter, a head hunter was what we were called. Back then they don't say it as much because they think it's derogatory. I think it's a, I love the name headhunter. So I became a headhunter in June of 1985. It was funny because ~I, I, so ~I lived in Brooklyn. ~I, ~I was born and raised ~and I, ~and everything I did was in Brooklyn. And when I told my parents, I was going to be a [00:07:00] headhunter, they had no idea what that was. And I kind of didn't either. Donna Serdula: with the mafia or something? Rich Deakmann: Yeah, that was very possible to those days, but, ~um, no, they, ~they, they're like, ~what the, ~what is that? And then I told them, ~yeah, ~how much are you getting paid? I said, well, I'm going to get 13, 000 as a draw, but I got to pay that back. And they're like, okay, so you're getting paid nothing, right? It's straight commission. ~And, uh, okay, where, ~where's the job? It's in New Jersey. You're going to drive every day with that jalopy car you have. Yeah. I'm going to drive every day. So they thought I was crazy. All my friends are like, ~what do you, ~what is that? And I was lucky enough that I had offers from ~like, um, ~actual hardware companies. And back in those days, it was like Harris, Lanier and Burroughs and Sperry. Nobody knows who these companies are. They're all gone now, but they were like the technology companies. ~But for whatever weird reason, I really loved.~ ~The, ~the interviews I had with the recruiting people, ~they were just, ~they were all young. Like I was 21, they were 22, 24, 25. They were driving Porsches. Some of them already owned houses. Two of them lived in my neighborhood in Canarsie, Brooklyn, which I didn't know [00:08:00] them when I was growing up at all. They just happened to live there. They were older than me. And I was like, I don't know what it is about this, but I gotta do this. I want to do this. I was drawn to it. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Rich Deakmann: It turned out to be awesome. The Evolution of Recruiting --- Rich Deakmann: I mean back in those days 1985 all we had was a phone. There was no computer ~There was no fax. ~No cell phones at all. Donna Serdula: no, no applicant tracking Rich Deakmann: No voicemail. No, nothing at all. ~But paper~ Donna Serdula: fax? You had a Rich Deakmann: ~not yet ~Not yet. No 1985. I mean they might have been invented but the company I worked for did not have one Well their philosophy was ~You, ~you get on the phone with people, you establish trust and credibility, and when you pitch a candidate, we call it pitching a candidate to a hiring manager, you just told them all about the candidate based on your interview with the candidate. You wrote everything down. You didn't get his resume. You told them everything. And if they said, send me a resume, you say, well, you just wrote down everything ~that I, ~that he did. Do you not trust me? Do you not believe me? ~You didn't.~ Why do I need to send a resume? He will bring one with him on the interview. And I can tell you that worked 90 percent of the time. People would bring [00:09:00] their resume. ~We never got them. ~Then the candidate would mail a resume to us at some point. Donna Serdula: Right. Rich Deakmann: now and then we would FedEx. They, it was a big deal to FedEx something. And then after a while they got the fax machine, but they put rules in. You can't just fax resumes. The only time you fax resumes is if you have no choice, if the hiring manager will not see your people without it. So they taught us the hard knocks way. You don't just get lazy. ~You don't just send stuff. ~You got to establish interest first. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Rich Deakmann: ~it was, ~it was a great, we had aliases. We didn't use our real names. No, nobody had a real name. Everybody had aliases. Yep. We had fake phone numbers. Donna Serdula: Dang. Rich Deakmann: We had numbers. So I handled Chicago. We had three, one, two area code phone numbers that we would leave and they would call it not knowing we were headhunters and it would get to us. It was because it was very stealth. If you think about it, there was no voicemail. ~So if I called, So ~Oracle is a company, one of my original clients. And I was looking to get one of their sales reps to call me back. I would get a receptionist. She would say, I'd say John Smith and she'd go, who's calling? [00:10:00] And I would say an alias. ~Because if I said my real name, I do work with Oracle at the time.~ They would know my name. And then that candidate would be exposed that you're talking to a recruiter or you'd put them on the spot. So you have to have an alias with a fake number. It was insane. That's how the business worked. ~For 15 years, almost 10, 10 years for 10 years. ~And then everything started changing. Voicemail Donna Serdula: ~yeah.~ Rich Deakmann: email, you know, Donna Serdula: That's, ~that's~ Rich Deakmann: ~it's crazy. ~I know. Donna Serdula: I love that origin story. And, and in a way it sort of makes me think of something that I think a lot of people don't recognize, and that is recruiting is sales. Isn't Rich Deakmann: ~Oh yeah, a hundred percent. ~No, it's exactly sales. Selling to people. Donna Serdula: well, yeah, ~I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're still building. ~I mean, you're still building the business. I mean, you're still bringing a lot of value to that organization. You're just dealing with the product or service is now just a, is that person, it's the talent, right? Rich Deakmann: Correct. So you're selling people to go to work for certain companies, but you're also selling companies to hire those certain people. We have [00:11:00] the only product, well probably not the only, but our product can say no. If you sold a computer and the buyer said yes, the computer can't say no. You sell the computer, it's gone. When I'm selling a person, the person can say no, I don't want the job. Well, the company can say, Nope, I don't want the person. So we have to double sell. So it's totally sales and it's building value for sure. ~Yeah. Yeah. Building value for sure.~ Donna Serdula: So, ~so let's, ~let's talk about, ~um, Where, ~where do you find most of your candidates? ~Like, ~do ~you, I mean, is it, is it, is it truly that ~you have this encyclopedic knowledge? ~And I, and ~I know that you do. ~So, I mean, is it just like, Oh, this person would be perfect. ~Are you using LinkedIn? Do you have your own database? ~Like ~where do you go first when you have a ~person that's like, or you have that ~company's like, we need this candidate. Rich Deakmann: Right. Okay. The first thing I do is I go to the people that I already know in my head, but also on my desktop. So there will be active candidates that I'm working with now that I know are, are looking and I have them in a, I have files on everybody. So it's not like I have to remember every single name of every single person. Sometimes it just comes to mind that way, like obviously this is the [00:12:00] guy for the job, but a lot of times is all right, let me look and see who I'm working with actively. When I go through that and if that's not what we need, then I will go right to LinkedIn. And I will do the search, ~but there are mostly people I already know, but I don't remember.~ And then, Oh yeah, right. This guy, he would be perfect. Or this girl is a great fit or whatever. And then if that fails, I go through my physical database, which is thousands and thousands of files from the eighties on till now. ~And I felt, I looked through them all one by one and ~that's the last resort because it takes the longest, but it ~mo ~a lot of times yields the best results ~for weirdly enough~ When I'm looking at a computer screen and written things I don't know the person as well as when I look at what I wrote about them in what color pen and The exclamation points and all the nonsense that I write from talking to them over the years ~like ~I remember him I can almost tell you everything about the person once I see the file. That's just how I operate from habit, ~I guess~ Donna Serdula: ~What, ~what I love about that is also ~it, ~it sort of lets people realize that it's more than just the experiences. ~It's not just,~ Rich Deakmann: Oh, yeah. Donna Serdula: personal personality, [00:13:00] human soul component to it. So like, let's say you're looking at a LinkedIn profile. Is there, are there certain things that jump out at you? Certain things that you're looking for when, when you are doing it in the more of the let's, let's LinkedIn database Rich Deakmann: Yes. ~Yes, absolutely. ~So a lot of things I look for ~You Believe it or not ~the photo, and I know that, ~you know, ~you're not supposed to care about that. But I do look at the photo. ~Cause if I, ~if I noticed that it's not ~an ~updated, like if I see somebody that I know how old they are, cause I know how old I am. And I see a photo from when they were in college, it's like, come on, you know, ~or, ~or somebody sitting at the beach or something like, ~you know, you, ~you kind of look at it. So it's your first impression a lot of times, right? So I will look at that. Donna Serdula: also, I think it's the easiest measure of professionalism. Rich Deakmann: Right. Donna Serdula: Isn't it? ~Like~ Rich Deakmann: your advertisement. Donna Serdula: yeah, I don't care young or they're old or what race or to me, it's, ~do you, are you, ~did you find a nice picture of yourself? Do you [00:14:00] look clean? Like, do you look friendly? Rich Deakmann: Do you take care of yourself? Yes. ~Yeah.~ Donna Serdula: Yeah. Rich Deakmann: Yeah, Donna Serdula: did you pass ~like it's, ~it's such an easy visible test to pass or fail and it doesn't take much to pass it. And yet so many fail. Rich Deakmann: ~I know. ~I know. I struggled with that for a long time, too. I was constantly not sure what photo to put up. And even now, my photo doesn't have me wearing a collared shirt. But I figured I change it so often that, you know, I'm not always wearing a collared shirt. That's how I am, ~you know,~ Donna Serdula: ~Yeah. ~But I don't think the collared shirt does, ~I mean, do you look, I mean, ~you're not looking for a Rich Deakmann: No, no. Donna Serdula: does the person look well adjusted? Rich Deakmann: Yeah. And ~is it, is it current? ~Is it current enough that it's been in this decade or in the last five or six years based on their experience? And just, you know, it's somebody I know, like people that I know, I know that that's their photo from a hundred years ago, but I don't care cause I know them. So it's different. But when you're just getting to know people, the first impression. And that's a really important thing. And then the LinkedIn profile, how did they set [00:15:00] it up? Did they get how it works even in the slightest way? Like I'll have a lot of people that they'll have their first, their job that they're at currently, and then right below it, they'll have like some volunteer work that they did, some board that they sit on. Some thing that they're involved with, with all the dates kind of working in conjunction with it's confusing. And then I have to really read deeper and I'm like, if I'm a hiring manager and I see. See that it's too confusing. I'm skipping you. I'm going to the next person. And that's the person that when I get them on the phone, I'll say, look, you got to fix that because I almost didn't call you, you know, and I'm glad I did because you're really good and you're, you're wasting that people are skipping you, trust me and let them, ~I'm going to LinkedIn person.~ That's not what I do, but that part is easy enough to see. I could tell them that. And then I look for, ~you know, ~the companies they work for. Are they compatible with what I'm looking for the background and then the track record. If they don't put like any numbers or accomplishments, cause I place salespeople and salespeople, it's all about accomplishments. ~You know, ~if I don't see any of that, I might [00:16:00] not take the time to find out. I might not call them and say, Hey, ~you know, ~you look good, but I can't tell you numbers if they don't have them on there. A lot of times I skip it, so they should put that on there. Donna Serdula: ~yeah, as, as, ~as a salesperson, you know, the one thing you have is your book of business. Rich Deakmann: That's right, Donna Serdula: ~that's,~ Rich Deakmann: right, Donna Serdula: ~a huge thing. ~It's something I think that is worth noting. Like I work in this industry. These are my clients. These are the people that I know this is where my network extends to. ~But then from there, it's.~ I really do what I say I do. I have the numbers, I can close, I can ~like ~prospect and, ~and, and that's, ~that's the biggest selling point. Rich Deakmann: That's true. Donna Serdula: someone, I said to someone just recently, ~um, ~it was a sales guy, he came to me, he needed help with his resume. ~And, ~and I said to him, ~I said, ~the real big issue here with your resume isn't the format. the fact that you don't have your numbers. If you had your numbers. And you had really great numbers, you could write your resume on a rainbow colored sheet of paper in crayon Rich Deakmann: Right, Donna Serdula: and you'd get hot and you could fax it ~and you'd get if~ Rich Deakmann: right. Donna Serdula: ~numbers,~ Rich Deakmann: You're right. [00:17:00] If you have the right numbers, they're not everybody does like, you know We're expecting everybody to be a players and 150 percent of quota every year. ~It's not real but there are people like that~ Donna Serdula: Yeah, Rich Deakmann: But most people aren't they're normal. They'll have missed a year here and that's okay, too ~But you just have to kind of align it so people get it, you know ~Don't leave it blank and hope that somebody calls you. That's how I look at it Donna Serdula: Well, ~I love, I love, ~I love how you look at it realistically, because there's going to be good years and there's going to be bad years, just like there is with the market. And no one's expecting you to be, ~you know, ~100 percent all the time, but at the same time, I think ~to, ~to be able to tell your story and to show that you align and to show what you've done. ~That's, ~that's what people are looking for. That's what you Rich Deakmann: Absolutely. ~Yeah. ~And that's really ~all I, ~all I look at those two things, really, you know, how does it line up and what are your numbers besides the photo? But that's the first thing you see, right? Is the photo. So you kind of go down from there. Donna Serdula: so let's say ~you're now, so ~you found someone. Do you then say, Hey, could you send me your resume? And then what do you think of at that point? Yeah. Rich Deakmann: LinkedIn, we don't know each other. ~Um, ~[00:18:00] I might, I might go and ask a connection that were mutual to introduce me. But a lot of times I'll just go right to it and invite you to connect with me. If you accept that, then I will send another email just saying a message saying, Hey, thanks for the connection. ~Um, if you need anything now, ~if you're open now, give me a call. We could talk. And if not now, let's talk later on. And if they respond with, you know, good timing or whatever, then I will call, we'll make a call. I will talk about what they're doing and then I'll ask him for a resume. And then if the resume isn't matching the LinkedIn profile, I make sure that they go and fix the LinkedIn profile. Because the second thing a client does is. They look at the resume, but they look at the name. Then they go to LinkedIn and then they match the two. Ensuring LinkedIn and Resume Consistency --- Rich Deakmann: And if they're not right, they don't talk to them. ~They have to match~ Donna Serdula: Yeah. ~Yeah.~ Rich Deakmann: the jobs and stuff. ~You know what I mean?~ Donna Serdula: Yeah. ~So, ~so what I was going to say is like ~what needs, like, let's talk about ~what needs to match because LinkedIn is public. Right. And so ~there you're, ~you can't expect to see all of their clients and all their numbers, but ~so, so ~that's not something ~that ~they're ~like ~expecting [00:19:00] a one to one ~what they are, ~what you are expecting is. The company name, the start date, the end date, that's what you want to see. You don't want to see, Oh, wait, why is there ~any, why is there a, um, uh, ~an experience on LinkedIn? That's not on the resume Rich Deakmann: Right. ~Or gap.~ Donna Serdula: yeah, ~it's, ~it's that trajectory that you're looking Rich Deakmann: That's right. That's what I'm talking about because they do look at that. And if that doesn't match, you know, how conscientious are they? With their LinkedIn profile, you know, ~I've, I've ~people have two profiles because they started one years ago and didn't know what to do and forgot about it. So when, but it's still out there and people find it and they're like, this guy looks terrible. I'm like, wait a minute, you're looking at the wrong profile, but that's, you know, you got to fix that as a candidate. You know what I mean? Donna Serdula: is possible. Rich Deakmann: Yeah, definitely. Donna Serdula: I have deleted plenty of profiles in my time, ~or at least queued them to get deleted.~ Rich Deakmann: Right. Donna Serdula: but you're right. You're right. You don't want to see duplicate profiles. You want to make sure that you've got the right one because that, that's a horrible thing. ~So, ~so let's say ~you, you, you, you, ~you do get the resume. It looks [00:20:00] fabulous. ~Now, ~now what happens? ~Where, ~where do we go from there here? Rich Deakmann: Usually if I'm doing that, it's because I have a specific opening or search that I'm working that this person fits. So the next thing I would do, I would tell them about the job. If they were interested, then I would send the resume. I call the candidate for a client first, text them, call them, talk to him about the person, and then I would send the resume. And assuming there's a yes, I would set up the interview. For ~the, ~the two of them to talk via zoom or whatever mode they want, and I'll prep both candidate and manager. Most of the time, it's the candidate that gets the prep. The manager sometimes depends on how urgent and there's a lot of depends on that, but mostly it's the candidate and I prep them how to interview this, what this person is looking at, what he likes, what he doesn't like, you know, whatever the things that they need to know. I tell them pretty much. The Importance of Interview Preparation --- Donna Serdula: Is there, are there any, ~uh, ~tips or techniques that you think people should know in terms of interviewing? Is there something that you see people do consistently wrong or ~you, it's something that you, you're, you're, ~you often [00:21:00] train a person on, you know, ~like what's ~like, how does a person approach an interview? Rich Deakmann: Yeah. ~Um, ~I mean, it could be detailed, so I'll try to. ~You know go go to the quick part of it But ~the first thing I always tell them is do your homework, which I know sounds obvious and they always say oh I'm doing my homework And I say well don't just go on the website and read about the company Do your homework on the person you're interviewing with look at his background her background where they go to school What are their interests whatever you can find from linkedin prepare so there might be commonalities most importantly You should be prepared on who you are. Don't just wing it on the interview. Think about what deals have I closed? Think of two or three stories where you went out and hunted a deal on your own. You're a net new hunter. You found it, you sold it. What were the problems that you faced? How'd you overcome them? Quick and easy, couple of those, and then have a couple of deals in your head that you lost, that you tried to win, but you didn't win. And ~what did you learn from that? ~What did you learn from that? Are you coachable? That shows whether or not they're coachable, whether they blame the product, they blame the company, they blame [00:22:00] someone but themselves, right? So if you're prepared to talk about that, you won't fall into that trap and just rattle on what you did wrong and blame everybody else. So I want them to be more prepared on themselves sometimes. Like for example, if you say I'm a great hunter, okay, give me an example of what you hunted. And if you can't think of one or two or three companies that you cold called and hunted. Then how is that proving that you're a hunter? You're going to lose. ~So that's, that's it. And then always prep them on the close~ Donna Serdula: Yes. Effective Interview Closing Techniques --- Rich Deakmann: that we've spoken about before, like the closing of for a salesperson is probably the most important thing at the end of an interview to get in somehow. ~And a lot of times, like I handled in Chicago. So~ a lot of the closing techniques they do, they are different than what I would tell them to do. So like they would say something like, ~so ~is there any reason why. You wouldn't be interested in taking me to the next step. That's to them a close in a lot of cases. And I'm like, please don't ever say that. Because if you said that to me, my first thoughts would go to what am I not interested? Like, so what don't I like about this person? Why wouldn't I, you're asking for a problem, Donna Serdula: Yeah, ~yeah,~ Rich Deakmann: [00:23:00] right? Donna Serdula: ~I, and I will say this, ~I think the importance of, ~you know, ~having that close at the end of the interview, ~it ~extends. It's not just for salespeople. ~I mean,~ Rich Deakmann: Okay. Donna Serdula: believe that if you're in that interview and you're as the candidate, ~You're liking it.~ The Two-Way Street of Interviews --- Donna Serdula: It feels good because ~if it you're ~it's a back and forth, it's a two way street here. And that's something that I don't hear enough that that person who's being interviewed should also be interviewing their interviewer. Rich Deakmann: That's true. Donna Serdula: ~some, you know, because I want, I want, ~I want our clients to go in there and. Empowered and knowing the value that they bring. And also like, is this a place that's worthy of me? Is this a place I want to work at? Is this a place that I'm going to feel comfortable and it's going to be fun. I think that's an important part, but like, let's say you're excited and ~this is, ~this feels really good. Then you have to close ~and, and, and, ~and this is for everyone. Like let them know. Rich Deakmann: Yeah. ~Let them know.~ Donna Serdula: what, so what is your, you know, what would you suggest for that job seeker? What should they say at the very end? Everything is good. ~What, what's, what's, ~what's that magic [00:24:00] sentence? Rich Deakmann: Yeah. To me, the easiest and the most direct way is always the best way. And I would say something like, Hey, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I hope you enjoyed it as well. ~Do you think I'm a good fit? ~Do you think I'm a good fit? Are you interested in me? Or some form of asking them, do they agree with me as a candidate? You're not saying, Hey, I want the job. I can start Monday. You know, when you're not being that like aggressive, choking them kind of a close, cause that intimidates people. It makes you seem desperate. But if you say, do you think I'm a good fit? ~I'm like,~ And let them talk. And if they say yes, you say, great, what's the next step and when can we take it? You follow that up with another question. If they say, well, you know, I'm talking to a bunch of people, you're the second one I've spoken to. I want to think about it. That's a legitimate answer. Right? I mean, that's not a lie. That's probably true. But you didn't get yes. ~And I know that with these things, a lot of it is gut feeling.~ When you know someone's right, you say yes. That's a hundred percent. We're going to set you up with the next step, right? So if you get that as an answer, you could then say, okay, I get, get that. That makes a lot of [00:25:00] sense. Do you have any concerns? Is there anything that I didn't cover? Maybe I missed something because you know, there's a concern. And if you don't ask that followup question, you're never getting another chance. When they hang up with you, they're gonna tell me yeah, he's nice. Oh, he's good Put him put him on the side who else do you have and you'll never get a chance But if you say that and they say well, you know, you don't have this this or this. Oh, you know what? ~I probably didn't make a point. ~Let me explain to you why I do have that Donna Serdula: Yes. Rich Deakmann: to overcome the objection and close again, Donna Serdula: Yeah. Rich Deakmann: So Donna Serdula: And Rich Deakmann: I did it ~seems to work better.~ Donna Serdula: Yeah. And it does. It opens, it allows you to extend that conversation and maybe go down paths that you didn't even realize. ~Maybe you thought you were really abundantly clear that you can do this.~ Rich Deakmann: Right, Donna Serdula: And so it gives you another chance to say, wait, I really, ~let's, ~let's talk a little bit more about that. ~I, ~I love that. I think ~it's, it's, ~it's a ~fabulous, ~fabulous technique. Rich Deakmann: It helps. It makes it easier to take the next step. It's easy to say because you're not really confronting them. Really. You're not putting them terribly on the spot. Donna Serdula: Everybody wants someone ~who, and I truly believe this, who's not afraid of confrontation and ~who can communicate.[00:26:00] Rich Deakmann: That's true. Donna Serdula: ~this is, ~this is a person who is open to communication. And I think, ~and, and ~they're not afraid of ~that, ~that, you know, a little bit of confrontation to say, ~Hey, ~Hey, tell me, yeah, Rich Deakmann: think I'm a good fit? ~That's all~ Donna Serdula: ~it's like, why are, ~I'm here for a reason. Rich Deakmann: right. I'm not saying hire me. I'm asking you, do you think I'm a good fit? Nobody, nobody should get offended by that. And they ~usually ~usually it's a positive. Next step. Doesn't mean ~they want, ~they're going to hire them, ~doesn't mean, ~but it does help with the close. One other thing I was going to mention, if you don't mind, when you were saying about it's a two way street and it is a two way street, I agree with you. The candidates should be trying to figure out if they want this job or not. Right. But I always say on that first interview, sometimes the first interviews with an internal recruiter. So that's a little bit of a different prep than it is for the hiring manager. But let's say the hiring manager is the first step. ~You even though it's a two way street. ~Your only job on that call is to have that manager walk away saying that she wants to hire you or that she thinks you're a good fit. You don't have to worry if you want the job. In fact, I don't care if you [00:27:00] want the job or if you even take the job, I don't care. What I care about is that that manager walks away saying, this candidate is a great fit and I'm very interested. Let's get the next step. Because when that happens, you, the candidate is in control. Now you're in control. You can then decide whether or not you want this job, but if you're spending the whole time trying to figure out if you want the job and you're pensive and they ask you if you're interested or that, you know, let me think about this. I'm interviewing with 20 other companies ~and. You know, you're, you're in there, but if you start doing that to get my gaze, she's not into it. He's not into it. Who else is? ~They want someone who's into it, who's going to not only be able to do the job, which is number one, but number two, will they do the job? Donna Serdula: Yeah. Rich Deakmann: if you're like not doing the selling of yourself, you may not get the chance, even though you're the top candidate. So two way street happens after the first or second. Now they want you. Now they think you're good. Now you could start asking those questions. Vacation, God forbid, anybody ever asked if there's vacation, but people do, ~um, ~you know, those kinds of things you don't want for sales. I don't know about regular. [00:28:00] Employment but for sales jobs, that's the last thing in the world. You should ask, you know, what's your vacation policy? ~You know what I mean?~ Donna Serdula: yeah, ~yeah, I, ~I hear you. And I think sometimes people don't ~know the, you ~know, when they should be asking certain things. Like, you don't ask about benefits on the first call. Rich Deakmann: You ask with the on the last call when you get the offer ~or something or ~or if it's very very important Like you have a sick child or something. ~That's very important ~So you have to get that answered somewhere along the way with the hr benefits person not the hiring vp Donna Serdula: Yeah, makes sense. Follow-Up Strategies Post-Interview --- Donna Serdula: ~Yeah. ~All right. ~So, so the, so the interview, ~so the interview is done. ~right.~ Rich Deakmann: Yep. Donna Serdula: Maybe, maybe they've even had a couple interviews at this point. ~What, like, ~what should a job seeker be thinking in terms of follow up? ~Because there's a lot of ghosting. That~ Rich Deakmann: Oh my God. Donna Serdula: and it's ghosting from those who are in the position of hiring. It's also, you know, recruiters ~can ~can ghost people too. ~And it goes without saying that. ~I know what happens with the job seekers. They find a job. They just blow off the recruiter. So. is sort of, ~uh, ~ghosting one another at some point. So you're that person who is, you know, like, what do I do? Like what's, what's a, what's [00:29:00] a proper followup? Is there a technique to follow up? What's the amount of time that a person should give? ~What, what, ~what are your thoughts there? Rich Deakmann: So yes, ghosting is a huge problem. I would say from like a recruiter like myself and all the people I compete with and know, ~I don't think we're ghosting. ~I don't think we're ghosting ~at all. ~I know I never ghost, but internal recruiters ghost Donna Serdula: Okay. Rich Deakmann: ~they don't care. There's no relationship. You don't, you're not interested in this job or you're not a fit.~ ~Bye. ~They don't care, but we do because we're going to be talking to these people forever. Donna Serdula: ~yeah. ~And I don't think enough job seekers out there recognize the difference. ~Of, you know, ~in recruiters, they just ~see, they ~see it's a recruiter, it's a recruiter. They don't recognize that there's a difference. Rich Deakmann: There's a difference. And there's a lot of great internal recruiters. So I'm not like trashing that, but I'm talking generally. That's what happens. But ~what, what, ~what I always tell people, so if I'm involved with the deal, it's that's easy because I'm following up. ~You, ~you should follow up. I always tell people after each conversation with whoever you spoke to, send them an email just quick. Hey, great conversation today. Thank you so much for your time. Looking [00:30:00] forward to the next step. Bang, send it to everyone. You spoke to, let's say you had a panel interview with four people on it. Send it to each one of them individually, same kind of message. We tailor it a little bit. That's it right away. Send that like whenever you get a chance, then if Donna Serdula: ~was that a, ~was that a handwritten note? Was that an email? ~Was that~ Rich Deakmann: email Donna Serdula: What are you thinking? Rich Deakmann: email or LinkedIn message, but I prefer email because, ~um, ~not everyone is as active on LinkedIn as, ~as I would be, ~or as a candidate looking for a job would be, so I would say email them at their company email. ~Uh, ~get their email from them ~and, ~and a good way to avoid that, ~uh, you know, how long do I wait before I hear back kind of thing is ~if you can, while you're on that interview, say to them, When should I expect to hear from you? When are we going to talk again, good or bad? ~If, if you're, ~if you're saying no, when are you going to tell me no, you try to nail them down because then you have a time for it. They say, give me a week because we're going on QBR or whatever. So you wait a week and, but while you're doing that, I'm also doing it my own way and I'm not waiting a week. I'm probably texting them and calling them that day and trying to get the next step. Now I'm not always successful. They [00:31:00] like me too, you know, so that's the best you can do. You just have to have a couple of touch points. To try to get them to respond. Donna Serdula: ~Is there, um, I mean, is there, ~is there typically like a, ~like, ~if you haven't ~heard from, ~heard from a person in four weeks, or, Rich Deakmann: Oh god. Donna Serdula: things where that hiring cycle is such that ~you really, ~you never know. Rich Deakmann: No, it's Good news travels fast bad news. Not so much The longer it takes for you to hear something the more likely it is that it's not going to go down your way ~Most of the time ~there are exceptions ~i've had stuff. ~I just actually weirdly did a deal just like that. It took weeks and weeks and weeks and it was weird as hell. I don't know what happened, but they came back and I didn't complain and boom, they hired the guy and the guy didn't complain. So it's over. ~But that doesn't happen a lot. ~Usually when it's that far away, we just pull out. Everybody says, look, this isn't going anywhere. Let's stop. ~And that's it. ~So yeah, it's right away. It's a gut feel. I, I'm not giving you a definite timeframe because I don't know. It's different every time, but ~you know, ~you'll see there's a momentum. Stop. Things are going great. We love this guy. And all of a sudden stops. Something's not [00:32:00] happening. Donna Serdula: ~yeah. ~And I also think, you know, especially if it's like a ghosting type of situation that Rich Deakmann: That's terrible. Donna Serdula: about the organization and the individual at the helm. ~So,~ Rich Deakmann: At least when you have a recruiter like me, even if they're ghosting me, we will come together as a, as a group, me and the candidate and say, nobody's hearing back, they're not even telling me, let's just move on. Let's forget about them. Leave it out there. If they come back later, great. We'll talk about it, but let's go full. Speed ahead to something else. If you're on your own, it's very difficult to do that. I feel bad. I see a lot of these people on LinkedIn who have been out of work for three months, four months, six months, seven months. And I don't know in their spaces, if they have recruiters that they can work with. They probably do, but for whatever reason, they're not getting anybody to respond to them. And it's terrible. Somebody has got to say, sorry, at least I can't help you. Or sorry, you didn't get the job. ~You know, somebody has to tell them that.~ Donna Serdula: yeah, ~it's, ~it's the right thing. ~It's the~ Rich Deakmann: ~Yeah. It's just the right thing. ~They're human beings. They're just like every real people. We don't want to have that happen to us. Donna Serdula: I'm gonna have one, one more question that we're gonna[00:33:00] Rich Deakmann: Okay. Donna Serdula: because it just dawned on me. S Building Relationships with Recruiters --- Donna Serdula: o a person, there's a, you know, a person out there, maybe they're displaced, maybe they're currently working, but, ~you know, ~they're thinking ~they're, they, ~they listened to this and they're like, wait, I don't really have any recruiters that are in my network. And I haven't really, ~you know, ~created that type of a, ~uh, ~Relationship. Would you suggest that a person reach out to a recruiter on LinkedIn or via email? ~Uh, ~is it, ~would it be ~normal to say, Hey, here's my, ~my, my, my, uh, ~resume for ~your, you know, ~your a ATS, you know, like what, ~what~ Rich Deakmann: Yes, Donna Serdula: do to start that type of a relationship ~with, ~with recruiters? Rich Deakmann: that, that's exactly right. What you just said. ~That's what they should do. Pete.~ I mean, we're reaching out proactively to people, but if people haven't been reached out and they want to get in touch with a recruiter, absolutely. You could go on LinkedIn search, you know, who does what you do, like what's your background and stuff, and then reach out to them and just say something like, Hey, I noticed you on LinkedIn and I'm in your space. If you want to get to know me, I want to send you my resume. I'm not looking for a job right now, or I am or whatever. ~Okay. ~Just get a dialogue going and be in their database. Now, [00:34:00] having said that, that does happen a lot. I get a lot of that outreach and unfortunately a lot of the people~ aren't.~ They're not going to be placed. I can't place them. So because what we do is very boutique and unique and we look for very specific things. So as broad as it sounds, it's very narrow. So they might be great candidates, but they won't fit what we do or what I happen to be looking for. And I might just not have anything for them, maybe ever. So but I will say, yes, I'd love to have you. I don't have anything for you. I might not ever, but you never know. ~Maybe I'll find somebody for you, try to make them feel better and ~maybe they get lucky or you get lucky. Donna Serdula: Yeah, I mean, positions are always opening ~and, and, ~and you make a really good point. ~It's it's ~sometimes it is like that bolt of lightning strike, ~you know, it's, ~you know, just because they're open right now doesn't mean that there's an open position right now. Rich Deakmann: That's right. Donna Serdula: a timing aspect to it. But at the same time, like you said, ~you know, ~you want to create these relationships. You want to have these people in your network. You want to, ~you know, ~at least have those conversations. And I think that's, that's a good thing. Rich Deakmann: Yeah, 100%. ~That's exactly right.~ Conclusion and Final Thoughts --- Donna Serdula: Well, Rich, thank you so much for [00:35:00] joining me. ~How, ~how can people reach out to you ~and, ~and anything else that you'd like to say? Rich Deakmann: ~Um, well, ~thank you very much. This was awesome. And, ~uh, ~I do encourage anybody who's looking at their LinkedIn profile and not happy to give Donna a call because she's absolutely the best at that. I found that out only after three times looking at her profile and reading her books. So, ~um, ~you definitely could use her help. I'm telling you now. ~So, um, ~and they can reach me just by looking me up on LinkedIn or my number 732 957 9002. If anybody still uses the phone, I'm not sure. Uh, or old Donna Serdula: school. Like I am, Rich Deakmann: yeah, I still do it. ~People don't pick up, but.~ Makes me happy. Donna Serdula: you know what? There's something, ~there's some, there's a, ~there's a power there and it like you get things done quick when you do it over the phone. ~And~ Rich Deakmann: ~If they pick up, yeah. ~If they pick up, it's quick. Yeah, you're right. Donna Serdula: well, thank you so much. I Rich Deakmann: Thank you. Donna Serdula: it. ~And we'll talk soon. Bye~ Rich Deakmann: Okay. ~Talk to you. Bye bye. ~ ​