00:00.00 sidekqpodcast Hello and welcome to another exciting episode of sidekicks and sidequests the best unofficial dungeons and Dragons podcast in my humbly biased opinion I've got an amazing guest for you this week but before I get to my guest you know I got to do my ad read from my first sponsor. Insert part where I do an ad read for the sponsor all right and without further ado I know you've been waiting for the reveal of this mystery contestant. So without further Ado Hello Would you care to introduce yourself tell us who it is that you are and what is it that you do. 00:32.95 Holly Ordway Right? Well my name is Holly Ordway and I'm actually your colleague at word on fire I'm the yeah cardinal Francis George professor of faith and culture at the war on fire institute. But what is possibly of more interest to your audience is that I am a Tolkien scholar. And I've now written 2 books about jrrtolkien one about his modern reading and one that just came out about his faith called tolkiens faith the spiritual biography and there's kind of a d and d connection there because arguably Tolkien is sort of the father or or godfather or grandfather or. 01:09.79 sidekqpodcast Yeah I would definitely argue the grandfather of dungeons and dragons and then probably the credit for the hobby would go to you know the co-creators Dave Arnesson and Gary Guyigax for sure. 01:09.83 Holly Ordway Supporting influence in the background of I've been. 01:23.50 Holly Ordway Yeah. 01:25.27 sidekqpodcast And also personal point of a claim to fame as you were mentioning the titles of those wonderful awesome books you wrote I was pretty proud of myself when the first one came out Tolkien's modern reading and I was able to get ah dungses and dragons you know community illuminminary and ah indie. Cool guy on Youtube Mr. Matt Colleville of Mcdm Productions to get a copy of that first book of yours so that was really cool to be like you know he saw it was like this is rad and so I'm going to buy a copy of it and he did and so that was that was super cool. So don't know if of course mcdm productions is just like you know. They just launched their their crowdfunding for their own independent ah rpg system that game that they're developing and all these other you know materials and stuff so they're busy. So I know I've you know like maybe he'll get to hear about the tolkiens biography a spiritual biography and then maybe he'll have an opportunity to. Pick that one up when he's not in the midst of ah running a company and game design and crunch and all that other sort of stuff. So. 02:26.00 Holly Ordway Well the I see about books is that they they just keep you know they don't have an expire date. 02:32.85 sidekqpodcast I also very good point for sure. Um, so I know ah when this episode comes out. Everyone will have initially first heard you on our special parlay at the platter episode that we recorded way back when right before ah Halloween started. And we were having an awesome discussion. So if you haven't listened to that that should have dropped on Christmas Eve and hopefully everyone's been enjoying it their holidays with their family and such and yeah, so definitely if you want more skinny on just the the caliber of knowledge that Dr Ordway has on the subjects of. Dungeons and dragons and Tolkien and catholicism and all that I would recommend you listen to that. So so it's a pretty easy then because if you listen to that parlay ah special episode then you know the answer to this question but do you currently or have you ever played dungeons and dragons before. 03:25.70 Holly Ordway Well I have played dungeon dragons. Um I'm pretty old school in this I I first encountered d and d when I was in the single digits of my age so or more than thirty years ago actually probably about forty odd years ago um 03:37.91 sidekqpodcast Um. 03:43.19 Holly Ordway And I you know mostly did dungeon mastering and inventing dungeons because I was just you know this you know 8 or 9 and 10 year old kid drawing all these maps and things so I had the original monster manual with like the really kind of wacky cover. Um, it was great. Ah, and then a very long he i. Played a little bit in tiny little bit like in grade school high school and then this big big big gap until you Kurt got me back into it in ah in a supporting role for your campaign I played an npc behind this behind the scenes and that was really cool. 04:19.99 sidekqpodcast Yeah, and that is definitely a Colville idea that I stole because in 1 of his many Youtube videos. He's like you have so many friends and I can't play d and d with all of them take the ones that you want to feel very human just hand them off to the people that you want to play d and d with and say hey here I want you to control this. 04:21.89 Holly Ordway I Must say. 04:39.45 sidekqpodcast Major faction Npc leader you you kind of study and get into that character and then when I need your input. You just tell me something interesting that I wouldn't think of and then you're like oh that's brilliant I'm going to put this problem in front of the players and now they have to contend with it. 04:52.36 Holly Ordway Yeah I thought it was extremely clever because I was saying you have very regretfully you know right now for the foreseeable future I don't have the time or opportunity to join a campaign but what a cool thing to turn that into a oh you actually can be you know and here's this neat way to do it and I had. Had fun. You know exactly getting into the head of that character and you know being able to make a few kind of pivotal moves maybe or or things that influence the this the the game and then kind of back and hearing what happened it was the the low stress way of doing it that. 05:23.52 sidekqpodcast Yeah, yeah, yeah, the very chill way to play D and D so this is your permission to do that for sure with all of your friends. Um, yeah, so of course you know this this? ah you know. 05:31.37 Holly Ordway Yeah. 05:39.79 sidekqpodcast Pet project of mine this podcast we like to get into the deep questions here and so we like to figure out who is one of your favorite Npcs or sidekick characters whether they be from movie film television literature which I know you have a proclivity for etc. And ah, why is this character your favorite sidecake or npc. 06:01.47 Holly Ordway Oh see this is tough because I you know of course I want to go immediately to lord of the rings because that's my favorite book ever. So I'm just gonna go there. Um, and I I would have to say Sam Sam Gamji how can you not. Choose him because he's really the sidekick who is really the hero yet. He never tries to be the hero. He's just the hero because doesn't even try to be the hero. He's perfect. He's just fantastic. 06:25.97 sidekqpodcast Yeah, no, he is an Mvp or on this podcast so who knows maybe we need to just do I don't know that'd be a cool thing to do like just like a deep dive episode on Sam Wise Gamji as a character like what makes him tick. That's a good idea future Kurt maybe a Patreon thing to develop who knows and we'll we'll invite Dr Hollyway back and she can nerd out about it with us that'll be very cool. Um, yeah, so of course top tier answer for sure and then of course the other question we like to ask because of the namesake of the show. What's been and what has been one of your favorite side quests whether it's been ah tabletop rpg video game movie film television be plot element. Whatever and why has this side quest or be plot element been one of your favorites. 07:19.18 Holly Ordway Well I think here I'll completely shift modes over into television and I am a a longtime fan of star trek next generation which I watched actually when it first aired this was very exciting. It was. I'd watched next generation I'd watched regional series on on reruns that was star trek and then here's this new series and it took me about a year to maybe 2 years to really like it and then then there was just it was perfect. I loved it. So I would price say and I've been rewatching episodes blast. You know few months and and realizing they you know they really hold up. it's it's it's a really ah a good show watching them on Dvd because streaming to me is not the thing I like to own actually the dvs like like no one can take them baby from me nobody in a database can press a button and suddenly no more next generation for me anyway. 08:13.19 sidekqpodcast Right. 08:16.40 Holly Ordway ds in and I am realizing how much I love the character of wharf the klingon on the bridge and I'm not sure how much he really resonated with me the first time through but in watching the episodes in quicker succession. You know a couple of week as opposed to. 08:21.32 sidekqpodcast And. 08:32.74 Holly Ordway And not having to wait three months over the summer for of haardoling. He starts out as almost like this sort of token alien on the bridge. Let's put the guy with a funny forehead and the growl and and like sure but then he he becomes this character with like a really interesting story because he's conflicted. He's klingon. 08:34.82 sidekqpodcast I. 08:52.10 Holly Ordway Yet raised by Humans He identifies with the Klingon culture but he only knows about it in books. Um, and then we have that whole arc where he you know tries to recover his father's honor and you know goes to the Klingon Home world and that ends up unfolding. This major arc regarding you know Civil War and the Klungon Empire and all of that just unfolded from hey kind of let's let's give the token Klingon a cool episode you know and it's not you know the main mission of the enterprise you know to explore changing Worlds. It's very much a. 09:18.99 sidekqpodcast M. 09:27.93 Holly Ordway Side quest but it ends up drawing in like Picard ends up going to klingon and you know standing up for wharf and it becomes one of the sort of strongest narrative arcs in the series I think. 09:41.75 sidekqpodcast And I know I have to lay myself bare. Not the biggest Star Trek fan but the times that I have started trying to watch next generation I did think it was cool as well. So ah I'll definitely have something to look forward to when I managed to finally watch it all. Yep. 09:57.58 Holly Ordway Ah. 09:58.87 sidekqpodcast And then the last question that we have here in the personal interview section is what are you passionate about and why. 10:06.58 Holly Ordway Well in the sort of larger sense. Very passionate about writing I write I teach writing um and then subset of that connected to that I'm very passionate about Tolkien you know I am a Tolkien scholar not just sort of accidentally but because he's been such an important figure in my life I've been reading him you know ever since I was a girl and written about him and been thinking about him and finding him so important. Um, he helped me I think to become christian. Taught me to become a catholic so. There's a personal connection there as well. Um, and all throughout this his his works are so rich and interesting. They never you know they never run out of depth and his life is so interesting which you know having now just written a biography of him. I thought I already loved him as much as was possible. A huge Tolkien fan and then I wrote this biography and I love him even more because he in many ways was kind of an ordinary guy. Um brilliant but he didn't just sort of hatch out of the egg. You know, writing the lord of the rings I mean he had a really rough life. He had a lot of ups and downs in his life. He had a lot to to struggle with he sometimes failed. He wasn't perfect. He lost his temper you know things like that and all of that made me feel like I could relate to him much more um like he wasn't just. 11:37.21 sidekqpodcast I. 11:37.60 Holly Ordway Perfect from the start. He was a real human and I just found that encouraging. You know as ah as a writer as a human being to see that somebody that I admire is still totally admirable and also human at the same time. So I think I'm you know I'm very very passionate about you know writing about Tolkien and you know just. 11:50.80 sidekqpodcast Yeah. 11:57.60 Holly Ordway Talking about him is great. Great fun. 11:57.74 sidekqpodcast Yeah, and I know we have that shared connection because of the the catholicity and oftentimes sometimes you'll hear people say like oh you know Saint J R R Tolkien and stuff like that where they're like they're really you know? ah you know, asking for his prayers of intercession and stuff like that and trying to beseech and and see you know. You know if he would ever be like a name saint. But ah even if he's not like what you're talking about in describing lowercase s saintly behavior you know so we have these paragons of like creativity and you know moral upstanding citizenry and you know being. 12:35.76 sidekqpodcast Contributory to culture and all this other stuff and it's just like I'm just a dude with a mortgage and I'm trying to keep my family fed and I'm trying to make sure that we're not late to mass and that you know we're I'm grading the papers and it's just like meanwhile but then you know smoking his big pipe and. Type in on a typewriter writing by hand which I think I've heard stories. He just wrote everything by hand and then if he got Stuck. He's like well I guess I have to start over again and then you just writes it all over again, you're just like that is insane. Why you would do that. But yeah, just ordinary dude quirky you know, weird Also his own sense of fun. 13:10.20 Holly Ordway On. 13:11.83 sidekqpodcast And and maybe dark humor or something like that we might say nowadays. But yeah, just ah. 13:16.25 Holly Ordway Actually I was there I was actually light humor because he had he liked to poke fun at himself. That was the fun. You know he he would. He could be very silly. Um but he would he would direct it at more at himself to kind of make himself look silly and that's one things I think that's makes him just admirable. 13:19.74 sidekqpodcast I. 13:34.62 Holly Ordway That you know he he certainly had his failings like I said he could lose his temper. Um and he could be a little oversensitive but he was always trying to build up his friends. He was always wanting to encourage them. Um and and always trying to. You know do his best work as we should do but but with that sense of you know, sort of self-deprecation and and you know taking himself down a peg occasionally. 14:03.30 sidekqpodcast All right? Well sounds like a good model to strive after so so now that we've ah concluded the personal interview section I think it's time to head into some Npc creation. So Npc creation is brought to you by you. 14:06.62 Holly Ordway I Think so. 14:15.14 Holly Ordway All righty. 14:21.83 sidekqpodcast Podcast audience and our generous supporters from patreon so now is the time in the show where we give a shout out to them so I'd like to raise a toast give a loud hurrah to our queen of the Patreon Goblin Katie Aka Katie Downey as well as our great contributors wealthy level patrons Anson Jablinsky nicholas carterelli and mom and dad cren wogi. Thank you so much for your support. Um, you know what's what's not to say about these fine people you know they they believed in the podcast and they helped us get to our 20000 total downloads and whatnot and all these other so such cool ideas and all these other things. Could go on and on about my Patreon supporters but I think the best place that you're gonna learn more about it is if you go to my show notes below if you go to the podcast website or just go directly to patreon.com/sidekicks and side quest you can learn more about our tiers are accommodations that you have awaiting for you in this demiplane. And worlds beyond. Okay, so now is the part where we're going to get to make up a character. We get to make up our own samwise gamji or maybe a smigall or whoever else we decide to make today. Um, and I believe before we started hitting record you said that you had as like a framework worked out but then for anything that you didn't have. We were going to go to some random tables and fill in the blanks that way I've got the dice on my side of the screen and then you'll just trust me with what I roll. 15:47.70 Holly Ordway Exactly I'm I'm going to do the winging it approach to Npc creation. 15:54.70 sidekqpodcast Ah, maybe like a writing exercise if you will just like here here's some prompts now noodle your brain and let's figure out what we get? yep. 15:59.62 Holly Ordway Exactly see this is epipping of the writing part of my my psyche This is excellent. 16:04.78 sidekqpodcast All right? Well we begin npc creation with the question of what is the name of our character today. So. 16:15.32 Holly Ordway Oh names. Um now see this is this is a terrible starting point because I'm I'm just rubbish at names. So I'm I'm going to well no I want to let the name sort of be on the back burner for them all because and. 16:21.35 sidekqpodcast Well do you want to roll for a name. 16:30.60 sidekqpodcast Oh okay, okay we can come back to that question later. So after we've kind of discovered the character we can see if ah something sparks I see. 16:31.52 Holly Ordway And. 16:35.83 Holly Ordway Exactly because I mean you have to realize I'm steeped and talking so names. Well we we must. We must give it some time. 16:43.33 sidekqpodcast Okay, all right fair enough. So now the next question we would go to is what is going to be the ancestry the race, the species, the background of our character today. So. 16:55.00 Holly Ordway Right? This is my one idea I want to be a dragon. Yes am I allowed to do that. 17:02.49 sidekqpodcast Okay, so we're making an actual dragon character. Okay, yeah, yeah, it's on the random table so you could definitely do that. Do you have a do you have a preference of ah if you remember from the early days and how it's gone to fifth edition Now. There's obviously a big. You know chromatics are typically representatory of you know evil aligned characters and if they're metallic it means they're good aligned and if they're like gem then there's somewhere like in between the middle and then yeah and then there's like solar stuff with Splgem. So Do you have an idea of like what kind of dragon. 17:36.98 Holly Ordway I Want to be a slightly conflicted dragon. 17:37.41 sidekqpodcast You're looking to be Okay, so okay, so we're not and and necessarily adhering to a strict alignment chart you know prescription of what we say for the dragon but do you have like a I guess like a. Ah, a sheen to the scales that you're looking for whether it's a solid color or metal or gems or. 17:56.15 Holly Ordway I Think definitely metallic because my dragon definitely has that sort of sort of greed. You know that that very dragonish element so that would put it more towards the the you call it the the metallic side of things. So I picture. 18:14.00 sidekqpodcast Okay, O Okay, a goldish yeah and in ah, what's written in the books at least from what I know of fifth edition. They're like oh gold dragons are supposed to be like the lawful good sort of dragon so to have a morally conflicted lawful Good dragon might be. 18:14.82 Holly Ordway Picture sort of of a goldish kind of dragon. 18:31.61 sidekqpodcast Very interesting today gold-ish. So. 18:33.71 Holly Ordway Ah, so gold-ish like maybe gold on own. But maybe there's some other chromatic shades in there that are making this kind of you know, complicated. 18:41.99 sidekqpodcast Oh okay, excellent. Well I'm excited to learn more as we continue Onward So is there a job or role in society that this dragon has. 18:52.74 Holly Ordway Well no, or well the the Dragons role is to hoard treasure. Um, and and see that and this dragon doesn't at present really have any treasure and this is part of the the sort of existential conflict that this this character has wanting treasure. 19:00.90 sidekqpodcast Ah. 19:08.86 sidekqpodcast Okay, so. 19:12.33 Holly Ordway Needing a treasure. It's dragonish to have treasure where do you get it. Do you steal it? Yeah, this is all very difficult if you want the treasure but you you don't want to just totally loot and burn right? because you've got the gold element. 19:23.19 sidekqpodcast Okay, interesting. Um, yeah, know this is you know this is cool. So we're going like strictly like fairy tale like legend of like classic dragons. So not like you know what modern D and D Imagines is like oh you know these high level dragons just polymorph and then they they masquerade as Humanoid. Characters and they integrate themselves in society so they can learn. They can interact with other groups. But that's interesting I mean maybe that's an element you want to borrow for this particular Dragon. That's where the job or role in society could come in as sort of like ah, a cover or a disguise. Um. 19:57.88 Holly Ordway But this is excuse this is where I'm just totally relying on your encyclopedic knowledge of the current D and D because I am like way old school like Wow second edition that's new so I didn't know about the polymorphing thing. But no my dragon stays as a dragon. Not. 20:16.30 sidekqpodcast Stays as a dragon. 20:16.31 Holly Ordway Not isn't huge though this I think this is I'm seeing this is kind of like a um sub elephant size dragon. So it's a youngish. Yeah, but yeah. 20:27.15 sidekqpodcast Oh a young dragon. Okay, so yeah, ah out of the wormling stage of like newly hatched and is like a proper young dragon trying to set up shop. Okay, all right? and then let's see so the the age of the character. 20:33.12 Holly Ordway Exactly he's trying to make his way in the world. You know. 20:42.24 sidekqpodcast Young dragon so that's easy enough that that puts us at um, a couple of in fifth edition terms. You'd say challenge rating level high. So maybe like a I don't know I don't have memorized off the top of my head but that's that's anywhere from like fifth to 8 like eighth level or something like that. Okay, okay. 20:59.28 Holly Ordway I'll take bread. 21:01.53 sidekqpodcast Ah, so now now we come to the physical description. So now when we're looking at this gold-ish but has color undertones Young dragon that is like a classical dragon like out in the wilderness removed from society like what are we picturing when we. Feast Our eyes on this dragon and. 21:20.58 Holly Ordway Well definitely Scaly. So Definitely long tail you know Scales long narrow head um sort of big big Bright Eyes very very expressive eyes and and claws. And of freshest was um wings. Also he has wings. He's a piece. Ah you know four legs and wings his so classic dragon sort of build and and he can speak as well and I don't know how standard that is. 21:50.22 sidekqpodcast Yeah, yeah, no pretty standard. 21:55.46 Holly Ordway Um, okay, um, yeah, and so yeah and sort of gold but with a sort of iridescent kind of like if in the right light he might look Bluish or greenish or you kind of depends on how the light is. 22:12.15 sidekqpodcast Okay, very cool and then ah, let's see so we got we got. Okay so we got all those details. So then I always like to help narrow Npcs with 3 adjectives. So if you had to pick 3 adjectives to kind of like hone in on this character like I'm looking at a sheet. How am I going to role play this character. Okay, what 3 adjectives are going to help me do that. 22:32.30 Holly Ordway Right? So for this character. Um, artistic, fastidious and what will be my third adjective. 22:48.29 sidekqpodcast Okay, artistic, fastidious and thoughtful. Okay, so very very plotting and scheming kind of a you know trying to figure things out sort of a character. 22:48.80 Holly Ordway Thoughtful. 22:57.68 Holly Ordway Yeah, a think before you leap possibly overthink before you leap kind of dragon Exactly Yes, exactly. 23:03.55 sidekqpodcast I The Analysis Paralysis Dragon Okay, and now going back. This is the part normally or I'm like and now we get to go back to rolling dice if people are randomly generating ideas so we like our characters to have something cool on them. Ah, So what is a valuable piece. Ah So what is a valuable item piece of Lore a secret or an ideal or concept that this character Ascribes to sometimes when people are just like spitballing they may throw in a couple., But if you want a random dice Roll. We can do that too and. 23:42.76 Holly Ordway Well actually I this kind of came with the idea forhanded which is that the reason this dragon is kind of conflicted is that it it. He wants to kind of be more artistic than the average Dragon horde. He thinks it's a bit vulgar to just pile up lots of coins. Um. 23:58.00 sidekqpodcast I. 24:00.78 Holly Ordway Just sort of like really really dude. That's just so gauche so he wants to collect art. Um, but the problem is that how do you? How do you get it and you know without sort of you know, stealing it and then as a dragon. How does he. 24:05.38 sidekqpodcast M. 24:18.79 Holly Ordway Store Fine art like paintings this he is. He has had some rather regrettable incidents with with ripping canvas with his claws so slightly traumatized by the idea that this art that he wants to have in his in his cave. Um, how yeah. 24:25.56 sidekqpodcast M. 24:32.25 sidekqpodcast In. 24:35.56 Holly Ordway How do you store paintings in a cave. It's much more suitable for gold. You know seems are damp often. This is very difficult for a young dragon who wants to be artistic and is fastidious about maintaining his horard and tiptop collect condition. 24:48.51 sidekqpodcast I was going to say you're familiar with the movie monument men that came out a couple years ago. Ok I mean it's based off world war two story where you know the nazis were stealing art and all these valuables and I think somewhere in Germany it was like. 24:54.30 Holly Ordway No I've I've heard of it but I haven't seen it. 25:06.65 sidekqpodcast Oh and an old salt mine is where they hit all this stuff So in my head I was thinking like oh if you don't want to worry about dampness and stuff like that just this dragon just needs to relocate to a salt mine and then he can hang all his paintings up and not have to worry about moisture ruining the paintings or or he just needs to learn the level of magic to. 25:19.13 Holly Ordway Hi. 25:23.83 sidekqpodcast Protect them from wearing an age and stuff and. 25:25.58 Holly Ordway Wait Maybe that's part of his his quest is find the perfect real estate and Salt wine. 25:29.91 sidekqpodcast There We go. Okay, oh but then conflict because obviously the dwarfs or the humans or the elves or whoever's in the area like obviously we need this salt because we're like in a very landlocked area and Salt is valuable for. Ah, food preservation and and flavoring and stuff like that We can't It's too expensive to get it from the ocean so we got this great salt mine here and no this dragon wants to move in. So Now there's a problem. Okay, all right. 25:56.36 Holly Ordway And. 25:59.81 sidekqpodcast So okay, so then you think then that ah that's gonna be the side quest then that ah this dragon is gonna offer up to a bunch of adventurers that stumble upon him, he's in this quandary of like I want this art and I need to relocate to this place. But. All these people are using this and they're still they're taking all the salt out of it and like that's not good. 26:19.56 Holly Ordway Yeah, or or at least he wants to figure out some way of achieving this like maybe it's to get the salt mine or maybe they've got some better idea. Maybe there's some magic that he could he could learn. He's young it he doesn't he doesn't really know what his options are um. 26:29.33 sidekqpodcast I. 26:36.74 Holly Ordway But maybe maybe could start like off I could just have a so a salt sort of cupboard. Yeah hey he can start with that and then and then the full hoard. Maybe maybe he needs to learn to you know downsize his ambition at first. 26:47.29 sidekqpodcast Right? Or just get a bunch of rice and just stick piles of rice around and then it's like yeah that absorbs all the water and it works on all the magic devices I've seen that people have they just stick it. 26:54.17 Holly Ordway Exactly. 27:01.70 sidekqpodcast Their Swords wet. They just stick it in a pile of rice and then they pull it out and it's dry brand new. Yeah, it's a little bit of dad joke humor I suppose. Um, okay so we okay so we've got the side quest in mind of like how. 27:05.96 Holly Ordway Ah, okay, well. 27:15.60 sidekqpodcast How to acquire this art and then where to go to actually preserve it and then start building up this hoard So when the player characters somehow present a successful solution and the earnest start on this path. How is the dragon going to reward the party for their part that. They played. 27:35.90 Holly Ordway Um, well he is a dragon so he could provide sort of dragonish assistance in a tight spot I mean he he can produce flames if he kind of like pumps himself up a little bit. Um and and he is sort of ferocious I mean made ferocious looking anyway, he's actually. Not the most ferociously you know motivated dragon he he doesn't he's a little maybe a little squeamish he does he he likes to you know have a have a nice pre-killed ox for his supper and not like you know chase screaming people because he also yeah, he's got that gold. Baseline to his his colors. He's he's got a sense of like yeah I sort of want to achieve my ends without you know, slaughter and and whatnot but he still has that innate Dragonish frosty which he would be willing to ally for you know to to. Provide a little bit of um, at least the show of ferociousness to to the party who might need a little bit of sort of dragonish muscle or dragonish. Ah he could do the drama really well and he could be being artistically minded. He could be very dramatic and you think he would probably enjoy making a big. 28:37.51 sidekqpodcast Yeah, yeah. 28:50.73 Holly Ordway Sort of theatrical to do of look at me I am the ferocious creature you know puff now. 28:58.17 sidekqpodcast And so get a bit of ah that what was it in dragon heart with ah Dennis quaid and then Sean Conner is voicing the dragon. It's like oh the dragons attacking and then it's really, they're teamed up the whole time of like we got this great racket going. You know i. You know I get money for saving saving quote unquote saving the town and then I use that to buy you art and then see now you're getting it like the money the right way or you're getting the art the right way, you're not having to like you know Rob people you know we just do a bit of a you know a pony dog and pony show and. 29:28.80 Holly Ordway Exactly yeah or like you know you, you're trying to get some badness of the town like you know make it look like wouldn't you rather run away than fight. The ferocious dragon is so good. 29:30.54 sidekqpodcast You know, trick them out of their money right. 29:41.75 sidekqpodcast Yeah, okay, all right? So We got a couple of options there that ah that a dungeon master could play with and figure out how they want to Adapt adapt to their table. But then we got to consider the opposite. What's going to be the consequence of failure. Or refusing to help the dragon you know is this dragon going to become a bigger problem in the area right. 30:02.21 Holly Ordway Um, that's ah, that's a good question I'm not sure what do you think. 30:11.10 sidekqpodcast Yeah I mean I Always like um the ramifications down the line. Sometimes it's like oh maybe this was like this this thing was the thing that started the tipping point and now he's starting to lean more into the evil sorts of behaviors and characteristics. Because he wasn't shown kindness or mercy and so that kind of like because he's a dragon dragonness it amplified in him and so he's like oh well, you know if I can just tell people to kick rocks? Well then yeah I could do that too I'm much bigger and more terrifying than you know some peasant with a sword. It's like yeah I could totally. You know, do whatever I want and get away with whatever I want. Yeah. 30:47.83 Holly Ordway That's true because he he does he has that gold baseline but he's got that sort of conflicted chromatic element there. So he's kind of on the balance. He's he's trying to lean towards the goal. But after all if if he's if he's you know, given a bad treatment. He might. He might be sort of nudged towards the the sort of resentful behavior and after all dragons from Beowulf on out, you know that's definitely his his heritage is the Beowulf style dragon. They they can lose their tempers. Um, if they feel like they've been disrespected like oh you just. 31:13.33 sidekqpodcast M. 31:22.82 Holly Ordway Belittle me and you you know, really? well maybe maybe some mild or not so mild toasting would would be a repercussion. 31:32.12 sidekqpodcast Yeah, or you know, ah the bad actors. The dragon cultus come to town. They're like hey look at this great dragon that we can worship and convince is like this great to do harbinger of evil and doom in the area will be your loyal minions and now you become. 31:44.67 Holly Ordway Who. 31:49.12 sidekqpodcast Like a proper like Evil Dragon building a layer. You've got minions and you're building traps in your layer and all this sort of stuff now now the cultists are storming the salt mine they're killing people and dragging them out and now the dragon moves in. 32:02.40 Holly Ordway Right? And I could see this the dragon sort of you know because he's got Minions. He's able to kind of not think about it too much. This is always a problem of of minions. You know you you don't realize what you're doing because you're letting somebody else do the dirty work and And. Ah, yeah, that could be a definite problem. 32:21.13 sidekqpodcast It's a spiral. He's analysis paralysing and he's like oh I'm this far in now I can't like this is the this is the character I am now this is the part that I have to play I have minions now I've got people to feed I've got 4 ah one k's and dental planes that I got to provide. 32:35.76 Holly Ordway Ah, yeah I mean the yeah the the Macbeth problem you know I've I've I'm in too far which of course is a fallacy but he can get trapped in it. Yeah, so that that's that's the possibility like he does he get helped to take the road to fulfill his. 32:43.63 sidekqpodcast Yes. 32:53.77 Holly Ordway Dragonish nature in a good way that you know I potentially could be very good I mean imagine he builds in our collection and other people admire it like you know he's not necessarily ah as possessive a dragon as as he might be because he he's not just.. He's a little more artistic than that he he wants to he appreciates the beauty of it so he he could even be open to like letting people see his words Only they don't touch it. They mustn't touch it. They mustn't touch it but perhaps they could perhaps they could see it. You know So There's ah, there's a path. 33:21.31 sidekqpodcast M. 33:29.24 Holly Ordway That could that could cause the positive spiral if you went that direction. 33:30.97 sidekqpodcast Yeah, he sets up a little booth at the front of his cave. You know he collects a modest fee 5 gold to see all this great art. That's pretty good and suddenly he's got repeat customers. He maybe sets up a few food vendors in there. Some nice patio seating and. You know, get some bards to come in there and play some ambience music. He got a great hangout spot now. He's a businessman and he's running his own art gallery in the salt mine cave place. 33:51.60 Holly Ordway Exactly? Yeah, yeah, and this would appeal to his sort of organizational. You know, sort of thing like and then you know more getting more gold in. And then he can go and buy more art to increase the hoard that he really cares about this Oh whoa that would be his absolute like dream to have like commission have like the Salt mine line with like commissioned you know Dragon art. 34:10.16 sidekqpodcast He can commission artists to make art for him. 34:25.42 sidekqpodcast Yeah, yeah, he's riding a white stallion for some reason it's like aren't you a little big for that. It's like no, it's like obviously it's a gargantuan white horse. It's plenty big enough for me. 34:28.22 Holly Ordway Some some portraits of him in Heroic poses. Of course. 34:44.56 Holly Ordway Excellence. 34:44.84 sidekqpodcast All right? and then of course I think we got to come back to the name now that we know so much about this dragon. What's the name of our dragon. 34:57.39 Holly Ordway H Arts see um well of course his real name would be unpronounced Boy humans so he has he has to come up with a name that would be you know. 35:04.62 sidekqpodcast Okay. 35:11.52 Holly Ordway People can call him without you know, having to belch out flames as they as they do it. So I think given all of all of this I think he would take a name that would kind of represent kind of his um his his personal goal. So I think he would say. 35:28.35 sidekqpodcast That rembrandt that is a very strong name for a dragon like the artist. It's like no I am Rembrandt I you know all those paintings that supposedly Reran Rembrandt painted I'm the one who did them i. 35:28.35 Holly Ordway Call me rembrandt. 35:34.48 Holly Ordway Ah. 35:46.10 sidekqpodcast All right, excellent and then ah did you feel like this is a pretty well flushed out character if there were any optional questions you felt like discovering something else or you feel like this is a pretty good starting point for this character. Yeah. 35:57.82 Holly Ordway Well I think I think Rembrandt the artistic collecting dragon turned out to be pretty fully fleshed out I'm I'm amazed I started with the idea of just the dragon and now we have Rembrandt with his goal of the salt mine art collection. Um I think. 36:10.44 sidekqpodcast So all right? excellent. Well now that we know so much about Rembrandt I think it's time we place him in a random encounter. So now this is the part where we get to do a short roleplay vignette. 36:13.95 Holly Ordway He's free fleshed out. 36:29.25 sidekqpodcast With our character that we've made so you don't have to adopt funny accents or anything like that. But we're gonna breathe a life into our character. So the question becomes what sort of scene. Are you interested in portraying remrandt in is it going to just be like you know. You alluded to the play the scottish play earlier. So it's like oh are we going to do like this. You know this shakespearean sort of like Monologue of rembrandt trying to like you know deal with his ah quandary. Is it going to be Rembrandt coming across 1 of the podcast adventurer characters and giving the task of like. I want to acquire this property I need to figure out some way to preserve art. How am I gonna do that. Um, or is it just maybe even Rembrandt talking to the the foreman who's operating the mine and trying to like come to some sort of negotiation. It's whatever scene you're interested in. 37:18.95 Holly Ordway Well let's put him kind of early on in this arc let's have him where he's yeah, the dream but it is as yet. Not even close to being realized and let's have him encounter one of your one of your player characters. 1 of your adventures or. 37:33.42 sidekqpodcast Okay, so sure. Yeah, well, we've got a list to choose from. So I'll rattle them off real quick so we have Duncan who's the recklessly brave adventurer for hire happy. Go lucky no task too small no feet too daring kind of a guy so classic d and d. 37:36.28 Holly Ordway 2 of them. Whatever whatever ones you want. 37:52.62 sidekqpodcast We've got Sonja who's the warrior woman who started as a barbarian and then multiclassed into a paladin who serves a god to redeem the undead we have Koak who is the lawful evil arcane ah Trickster Roguish dwarf so a stabby stabby dwarf a sneaky one. Ah, we've got Chris Lee who is the who is the ah herbalist botanist wood elf druid who then ah multiclassed into a cleric who serves the god ah known as living memory. We've got um oion who is the astral elf. Allusionist wizard. So he's a elf that comes from the stars and is a wizard and then the last one most recent one we have is a gape and she is a lilac colored tiflling who started as a wild magic you know Fay the fay the fairy realm um, kind of in her blood. Sorcerer who then recently multiclassed and got a pacted ah an an arch fay warlock pact with this great? Ah ah arch fay character named prosperina. 39:02.84 sidekqpodcast So those are the all the established ones that we've created but if none of those sound good I'm totally open to inventing a brand new one on the spot has no oh I was going to say just a character that has no prior history or backstory and just literally is coming into the scene. Fresh. 39:08.23 Holly Ordway Well these all sorry hear say. 39:20.37 Holly Ordway Well let's let's go with one of with it 1 or 2 maybe 2 of of these but I'm going to let you pick um which which two that you want to bring on the scene here we have rerandt. He's sort of tooottling along you know, slightly sort of daydreaming and. 39:24.41 sidekqpodcast Oh ooh. 39:36.78 Holly Ordway Who does he meets He doesn't know yet. 39:39.93 sidekqpodcast Interesting. Wow This is this is ah such a big permission slip that I've been given I've always ah you know, thought in the background that I the the the higher Meta narrative of the podcast is like oh yeah, eventually all these podcast. Npc. Ah, hero characters eventually meet up and they're trading stories of like all the side quests that they've you know interacted with in the in the random encounter section. So Oh man, let's see I think I named like. 40:06.89 sidekqpodcast 7 characters or 8 characters I don't even know how many I have at this point but let me roll a d eight and see what I get so that's a 4 so Duncan Sonia Chris Lee okay so we've got Chris Lee Krisly and Duncan interesting. Okay, all right? We can roll that. So um, would you like to set the scene or would you like. For me to kind of ah like a dungeon master set the initial scene and then we'll figure out where we go from there. 40:31.82 Holly Ordway You you be the dungeon master and just remind me who those 2 were that you you picked. 40:37.51 sidekqpodcast Sure. Ah, so we're going to be doing a scene with Duncan who is the recklessly brave adventurer for hire. He's kind of like this human fighter sort of a character who's gone on a whole mishmash mish mash of adventures and then the other character we have is Krisley who is this herbalist. Botanist. Wood Alf drod she comes from the wode. She was kind of like oh you're the chosen warrior who we sent out from the village you have to go see how nature is out in the rest of the world outside of our woad and then she's had her own series of adventures and coming across this um other character and now has become like this. Um. Kind of like the giver sort of a situation where now she's been entrusted with keeping the faith of living memory alive. So so yeah now I'm just trying to look through my list because I know where Duncan was last time but it has been a while since we've heard from Krisley and I believe okay, so now I've got. 41:20.55 Holly Ordway Text. 41:34.36 sidekqpodcast Okay, so now I've got it where they both are okay so where we last left our hero Duncan he was given a mission by this young Silver Dragon who appeared in a major metropolis sort of high fantasy city who's going to. University and learning magics her name her her pronounceable name being Daisy um, and she commissioned duncan to go out. She met him at the gala and you know whined and dined him and impressed him and Duncan was smitten of course seeing this half celestial. Ah. Ah, but guy's appearance of this silver dragon um, sent him out on the mission to go try and find the crescent's edge this legendary. Ah religious artifact weapon ah that you know because Daisy is in the process of building up her hoard and collection. Ah, she's kind of a trust fund baby. So she actually has gotten a lot of her well from her parents but she's slowly working to build up her own so Duncan undertook this mission and in the course of trying to find someone to help him Duncan came across this really interesting wood elf druid but also claret character and. You know Duncan can only spend so much money on health potions that he was like you know what this this this one. This lady she sounds like she's great. You know Chris Lee had been hanging out in the dwarven community with ah clover the crystal merchant and all that way back when in episode number 92 um. 43:05.50 sidekqpodcast And and yeah so Duncan managed to find krisly and recruit her to join the party and so now the 2 of them are you know on the road trying to go and get crescent's edge in the legendary dungeon tomb way off where but where are they going to come across. Ah, are dragon rembranes. 43:26.16 Holly Ordway Well I think he he. He's just been sort of tooling Around. He's looking for a place to establish his hoardde and doesn't quite know what the right rowings are going to be and so he's just being on the road and so he literally just. Crosses their path in the most ordinary kind of way. Hello. 43:47.51 sidekqpodcast Oh oh my goodness. So Duncan is like exclamatory of like oh my good a dragon well well hold on hold on chrisly and Chris Lee is kind of like cool and she's like don't don't worry about this dragon dragons are fine and she looks at the dragon. And because of living memory. You see her eye color shift a bunch as she's searching through this encyclopedic. Ah you know grimoir at her at her side and she's trying to like identify like what kind of dragon ah that Rembrandt is but she's confused and like stunned for a minute she looks at a duncan. She's like I've I've never. I don't know I am perplexed and then Duncan's like you're telling me I it's not every day that you see a dragon cross your pads hello hello good sir. Well well my name is Duncan and and then emotions to Chris I'm Chris Lee I'm of the wode and and now cleric of. Living memory and we're we're on an adventure currently, but it's you you? Well, she's flummoxed and so Duncan's like I I've got this. You seem of cross our paths you're blocking the road like a tale of a great beast a snore las if you've ever heard and you the only way you could get him to move is if you pay play this flute instrument and then he wakes up and moves but this is kind of the opposite now you're a big fellow. That's right in the middle of our path on this on this road and. 45:13.84 sidekqpodcast You seem to have me having a quandary So how is it that we can help you today. 45:18.21 Holly Ordway Well ah Rembrandt says I'm pleased to meet you. Thank you for introducing yourselves not everyone has been so courteous. Some people have just sort of screamed and run away which I think is really not very polite. My name is Rembrandt. 45:34.70 sidekqpodcast And oh I am very well thank you very much and Chris Lee will say yes honored ah pleased to meet you as well. Um, oh and so she's just she's just admiring the sheen in the scale color. 45:35.14 Holly Ordway How are you. 45:47.74 sidekqpodcast And you see that she pulls out another journal not her grimmore but she pulls out a journal and with furious speed almost like an I robot she's like doing a sketch and she's like making like a perfect replica with her charcoal pencil and just her paper and she's like detailing like how he looks and how the light shines on the scales. And she's like doing all this while the interaction's going on but it's almost like she's doing it subconsciously she she's not even having to like actively concentrate on it. So Duncan's like 46:15.20 Holly Ordway Ah, and Rembrandt sort of angles his head over until he's kind of looking at what she's drawing and he says oh you're an artist. 46:26.47 sidekqpodcast And then she kind of like snaps out of it and she sees the head looming over and she goes Oh oh um, oh yes I I am a bit of an artist. Yes, oh well. Thank you. 46:35.14 Holly Ordway That's beautiful. Oh and and so Rembrandt says ah at last at last I might have found someone who might be able to help me because you see all of the people I meet seem to think that I just want. Sort of gold and rubbish and stuff like that I mean it's all very well. It's all very well Yes, yes, yes, one one can use gold. But so vulgar to just pile up heaps of it's just very inartistic I look beautyy and and ah and and. Just it's so refreshing to see someone who appreciates art I want to have art and yet as a dragon I I I could not even hold that lovely drawing without ripping it to shreds with my claws. This friends is my dilemma. You don't mind if I call you friends. Do you I've I've only met you but you seem to be speaking my language of of the heart. 47:36.44 sidekqpodcast Oh why I Duncan am a friend to all that I meet and Chris Lee is kind of like a little more but pragmatic and she's like oh certainly I can be friendly. ah you know, ah you know certainly ah, a deep level of bond and trust and then sure we can get to that point. Duncan's like the complete chaotic good opposite is just like. No you you I have met you and we are friends forever kind of an attitude. 47:57.66 Holly Ordway And we can see like so Rembrandt as he's sitting there. He he sort of starts to look a bit more goldish and not quite so sort of chromatic old. She named ah see beauty beauty you have an eye for beauty that the color you know. 48:06.93 sidekqpodcast Woo you're kind of like a chameleon that's amazing. 48:17.33 Holly Ordway The artistry How how can you help me to to you know fill my dream of of having beauty around me I don't know how to I don't know how to accomplish this. 48:30.37 sidekqpodcast Yes, see and so Duncan will roll a history check for the area but he kind of comes up middle of the road and he's just like ah well I mean we're journeying on the road we're we're heading to the last known location of this religious artifact weapon that I was charged with finding and this my my good friend Chris Lee here and chrisly's like a business partner doing the mission and he's like my good friend Chris Lee here is helping me on this quest to retrieve the crescent's edge from the plague Trap Ridden Dungeon now certainly I could do it by myself. But I always enjoy the company and Christy's like he needs a healer he he is much too head strongng and dives and we've come across 3 other situations where he just strove head in and did not take a single second to think and and then Duncan's like ah pish posh I've got enough magical gadgets and who's and what's sits to get me through danger. Um. And so he's like oh well, maybe maybe if we go there. We can clear it out that could be a place that you could go if you're into final resting places of once where religious artifacts were kept or um and chrisly's like well and she's like looking around and tasting the air and. Maybe she speaks to a plant real quick and so um, she takes a second to do that and then she comes back and she's like actually um, well the plants and then you know a gopher comes up and and she speaks and go for back and she's like ah actually just a little ways over this way. There is an abandoned. 50:01.83 sidekqpodcast Salt mine I don't know how much of the salt is left that sniffles here tells me that there's still a fair amount of salt in there. But you know maybe maybe there's something there do and Duncan. Do you mind being a nice gentleman I never mind being a nice gentleman we. We can go into this dungeon. Why we can we can rate its we can. Clear it out of the oozes and mimics and well maybe not mimics. Yes, mimics you always have to you never know when you're going to find a mimmi and he like does like a karate chop move to Chrissie real quick and she's like ah why did you do that? It's me chrisley I'm not a mimic and he's like oh sorry I was a good. Going thinking of a past adventure of mine where I had to fight a whole layer of mimics and and he starts going off and at this whole thing and Chrisley has to like put a hand on his shoulder and like calm calm. You're not going into a tangents. We're talking to Rembrandt here and we're going to do this mission. Do you understand Duncan he's like. All right, very well so all right? Well he would he would normally be the one to take charge but he's like he starts going off in a direction that's completely wrong way and he turns to look and then chrisly like points her hand the other way and then he's like onward and so then he starts charging off into the forest. Ah, trying to make a beeline for this this abandoned salt mine and so then chrisley will bow to re Brandon will say shall we go follow him then to this mine. 51:27.35 Holly Ordway And Rembrandt will say absolutely I think that you are an excellent leader of this party. 51:37.15 sidekqpodcast And so then without a much further ado ah Rembrandt and Chris Lee will go trudging after Duncan as he surely gotten into himself in some sort of danger along the way. 51:47.68 Holly Ordway And thererant will will now that he's sort of gotten in the same wavelength as crystally he will wait to see what what mass dun has gotten himself into and then will with a slightly amused sort of Dragonish Goggle help to extricate him having recognized that the sort of. Friendliness there. He will use his dragonish skills to to back dunkin' up and whatever mess. He's getting himself into. 52:11.79 sidekqpodcast All right? Well that I think that's a scene I think we did it and that was a first ever for the podcast only you know, like 120 episodes in and now we've actually done a random encounter where we've had like 2 of the podcast characters actually. A lot of me talking to myself and narrating as well. But Dr Holly was a great scene partner with me in portrayed Rembrandt. So yeah, what did you think of the random encounter in getting to breathe ah a life and a personality in a rembrandt. 52:40.90 Holly Ordway That was really cool I really enjoyed that and you did a great job I could really like vividly picture Chris Lee and Duncan and that conversation and like you brought it really to life there and I can just picture rammbrant sort of. Crashing out into the undergrowth with them as they as they head off um in the distance on their and their adventure. 52:59.93 sidekqpodcast So yeah, and and yeah, and so as we're starting to get into our our final thoughts section of the show of the podcast I always like to ask my guest. You know how they felt their time on the show was I know. Um, you know you don't always you get to do like very cool interviews on Youtube and you know very serious ah podcast ah spots with like the Bbc and like you know academic. What's a who's it's and then I'm just some you know nerd weirdo guy that's just like. I know you love tolki and I know you played d and d and stuff and why don't you take a chance on this little pet project of mine. 53:37.39 Holly Ordway Well hey I am also a nerd weirdo I Just happen to be a nerd Wiido who writes books you know that the people happen to life for which I'm very grateful. Oh no, this is it and you know what? It's a nice.. It's a nice change because my my series work is very important talked about the beginning you know the beginning of the show. But. You know it's very much in the spirit of tolki after all like I think he would enjoy this kind of thing. Um and a little humor a little lightning up a little pretendant. You're a dragon This is the kind of thing that makes life fun. Um, and you know for somebody who writes about storytelling. It's true. 54:13.65 sidekqpodcast I. 54:16.18 Holly Ordway Fun to have been participating in storytelling that was really cool. So it was great fun and I'm awfully glad you had me on Kurt. 54:18.47 sidekqpodcast Yeah. 54:26.50 sidekqpodcast Oh not a problem and ah you know, just as a fun thing I was re-listening to our the parlays at the platter episode that you got to be on and just thinking back on the question of like oh what's a cool thing from. Ah, Tolkien's legendarium that ah d and d didn't rip off in the original version of the game. What's the other thing that you would ah stick into the game that would now you know fifty years later kind of have developed as its own thing and you said in your one of your possible answers was like oh if they took golem and they made like a megums like a dark halfling. And I was just listening to that again I was like you know, actually a dark corrupted halfling sort of a character would be really interesting to play with and so I know on my Patreon one of my the aristocratic level I try and every month release some sort of like. 55:07.77 Holly Ordway Um, and. 55:15.32 sidekqpodcast Hey, here's some worldbuilding thing I've done or here's some sort of interesting sub-ancestry race thing that I homebrewed and I thought was cool. That's how I came up with like a dragon turtle dragonborn or you know, um, like ah mice folk or rat folk and stuff like that and. Now that's got me inspired I may actually have to be like in my world that you've played in now as an npc character I'm like you know there's probably room in that story to be like oh maybe there were halflings you know and all their gods are are nice and good. But maybe there was a group or a subsect of these halflings that. Ah, were corrupted and then over time they became like this dark caffling or whatever you know, whatever term we would adopt the S Megums or ah that is actually pretty fun. The smegums or the ah gallics or you know whatever we come up with so fun aside and you know maybe that'll be something I develop who knows but. I'm taking away from the final thoughts segment. So ah, certainly I want to give the microphone the stage the platform over to you my guests. So if there's any other final concluding thoughts. You'd like to share where can people go online to follow you where can we go to find your writings by your books. Ah, see you talk and do interviews on Youtube's and other podcasts and stuff like that. What what other passions or causes. Do. We need to be made aware of. 56:38.53 Holly Ordway Oh well? Um, let's see lots of questions. Ah well probably the simplest thing would we to say people could go to my website which is hollywardway dot com and then that that also gives links to my books so you can you know, go there, you can go on Amazon you can go on board on fire and look for. Tolkiens faith in particular and also on my website. There's a speaking schedule so you can see where I will be in person and um, if any listeners see that you know that I'm not coming to a place near them and they would like me to they can always get in touch and say. Won't you come and speak at a place near us and and maybe we can make happen because it's fun to do that I really enjoy doing lectures. Um, so yeah, all right? Well, that's that's my final thought and I just want to say thanks Kurt for. Letting me be part of your massively creative world I really admire your world building that you've done having had a chance to to play in it a little bit as an mpc I thought this is super cool. Um, and now to have ah a taste of your. You know on the spot dungeon mastering and seeing the way that you deftly conjured up. You know a vividly realized scene after helping me create this car I only came into this with like I want to be a dragon and pull the recipe you kind of help me tease out so got some. 58:04.63 Holly Ordway Major dungeon mastering skills there. So I I'm in admiration. 58:10.29 sidekqpodcast Ah, thank you that warms my heart very much so and ah, you know with our parlay the platter that we did with this episode today I can only hope that I've done my small part into starting that now. Ah, good and worthy discussion of ah of d and d of Tolkien of catholicism. How it all intersects and all that sort of stuff. So maybe hopefully we can see more writings and more talks and speeches on that I want to see the scholarship of like you know, Tolkien Fantasy dungeons and dragons and then you know all the catholic nerds in the audience being like you know what really people want to talk about. Okay, let's do this because I know they're out there and they would love to see more serious scholarship and discussion on it. So hopefully you know maybe I'm the the grain of sand that's going to begin the avalanche on that who knows so. 58:57.80 Holly Ordway Correctly, exactly. 58:59.86 sidekqpodcast Thank you again? Dr Hawley for your time this evening to be on the podcast I can't wait to have you back on to make even more interesting in pcs all right. 59:05.85 Holly Ordway Sounds good.