00:00.10
sidekqpodcast
Hello and welcome to our second panel style episode of our series of discussions that we're calling parlays at the platter. The goal of this type of show is to invite guests of the podcast who share a similar field of expertise or passion. To invite them to come together and have a lovely hour or so on the topic. Um our topic for this panel is entitled Tolkien Catholicism and dungeons and dragons and seeks to find the intersection of these 3 things while I don't think I will support while I don't think I will. Always need to do this I think it's important to make an important disclaimer at the top of this so I'm a catholic surprise and the panelists I've invited are all practicing catholics you out there. Listening may not care or find this or you may find this fact to be upsetting. No judgments we're all human after all. But I hope that through the course of this discussion. You will at least have a window of insight into our shared worldview. This doesn't mean you have to believe what we believe we understand you may not agree with us but everything we speak tonight will be in line with the magisterium the teaching authority of the Catholic Church and if I get something wrong I definitely hope that someone will point it out to me in the course of this discussion.

01:07.90
Katherine Spitler
Hello.

01:11.70
sidekqpodcast
The human elements and institutions within the Catholic Church have had issues and problems historically and into the present day and we do not for a minute want to forget that so we are all sinners and none of us are perfect. We stand by pray for and encourage support for all victims of abuse. And its many forms. We are the body of Christ and when one part of the body is hurting the body responds to help with the head of the church christ himself instructing and guiding his church. So the point of this discussion is not to open up the floodgates to vitriol and anger and frustrations for individuals. Who have ah committed heinous crimes that demand justice nor any biases that people may hold because of theology dogma or personal reasons and expectations I realize that the people who are initially going to be hearing this as an early access patreon reward most likely won't have a problem with this I'm putting this. I'm putting this disclaimer here. Ah for when this episode is publicly released as an early christmas present on the Rss feed so hello from the past right before Halloween Merry Christmas and remember that Christ is the reason for the Christmas season I'm joined by 3 wonderful guests of the podcast. Those of you. At the wealthy and a crist aristocratic levels of patronage on the Patreon will get to hear again this early release episode on the Patreon the plan is that I will probably wait a month or so wait I don't even I guess I don't need to include this part note to Kurt cut this part out all right.

02:37.21
Katherine Spitler
And.

02:40.49
sidekqpodcast
To begin my introduction of our panel. My first guest is the cardinal Francis George professor of faith and culture at the word on fire institute. She is also a visiting professor of apologetics at Houston christian university she holds a ph d in english from the University Of Massachusetts Amherst she is the author of. Tolkien's modern reading Middle Earth beyond the middle ages apologetics christian imagination and integrated approach to defending the faith tales of faith a guide to sharing the gospel through literature and not god's type an atheist academic lays down her arms. Her newest book Tolkien's faith a spiritual biography was just released this year on September The second in commemoration of the fiftieth anniversary of the death of our beloved j r r tolkien. She is also a published poet and a subject editor for the journal of inkling studies. Her academic work. Focuses on the writings of the inklings. Especially C S Lewis and jrrtolkien she will have her individual debut on this podcast in December and so you in the past are not going to hear it yet. But you in the future will get to hear her soon. So while she has been to the real life eagle and child. Where Lewis and Tolkien once frequented were sure she'll enjoy your stay here with us in the levitating platter tonight. You can drink your fancy as you can drink them buy the flagon but the only brew for the brave and true is Dr. Hallley Ordway all right? ah.

04:12.76
sidekqpodcast
My second guest is a writer theater maker educator and father of 2 he writes about god superheroes Shakespeare and other topics at the intersection of religion and popular culture at first things. The new criterion the american interest the weekly standard the new atlantis national review common wheel acculturated. Altia. And the american conservative he graduated from yale in 2015 with a b a in english and theater studies and then served as a junior fellow and assistant editor at first things magazine. He's also worked with great hearts, academies and magificat magazine he got his first children's book published recently called saintly creatures. 14 tales of animals and their holy companions as of that was published as of September the eighteenth of this year he is also a game designer and the brains behind Cloven Pine games which has produced a number of role-playing games including autumn tridgwa the great soul train robbery. Vow of the Knight's aspirant and back again from the broken land you will recognize this guest as the creator of Jasper the frog errant featured in episode number 65 fell deeds awake now for wrath now for ruin and the her dawn forth alexi. Sergeant.

05:26.40
Alexi Sargeant
Thank you very much good to be here.

05:28.30
Katherine Spitler
A.

05:28.40
sidekqpodcast
All right? And finally, our third panelist is a work colleague and 1 of the finest d and d players that I know in her own right? She is an accomplished artist and manages and creates designs for books and major brands. She's an avid gamer enjoying titles like mass effect and dragon age. She loves to draw art of her favorite characters from d and d and various video games a nerdy mom at heart she has 2 little bundles of joy now when she's not playing d and d she's enjoying her life with her family in Buffalo new york you will recognize this guest as the creator of thistle the sky elf painter featured in episode number 70 alas, not me lord shadow lies on me still look not to me for healing I am a shield maiden and my hand is ungentle she is Katherine Spitler all right well Well there we go so there were there were the introductions. How do you think they all went. Yeah.

06:22.38
Holly Ordway
Well I I was a bit I was a bit sort of blown away by being sung into my intro so that left me so flabbergasted that I couldn't do my usual hello good to be on the show. So my apologize for that gaff. He said.

06:36.46
sidekqpodcast
Well I I am the bartic palliate after all on this podcast. So I have to throw in the music every once in a while all right? Well I guess we'll we'll get. We'll get going then with the questions So I've prepared a list of questions and of course I've invited.

06:44.38
Holly Ordway
Excellence.

06:46.48
Katherine Spitler
Um.

06:55.13
sidekqpodcast
The panelists themselves if they had their own ideas of questions whether that they were pre-written or they're just spur of the moment. Um, you know we're gonna have this opportunity to talk and and and figure out what this whole thing is like between Tolkien and catholicism and dungeons and dragons. So I guess we'll begin with this one. Do you think Tolkien would have liked plain d and d considering that he passed away just before the hobby exploded into popularity actually will take that again because I remembered my thing I said that I was going to do so scratch that will we'll come back to that. So. So obviously this is a dungeons and dragons theme podcast and I think to help give us all an idea a pulse of of ah of where we lie with our experience. Could we all go down the line and kind of say what our experience with the game is and I'll go I'll I'll lay myself bare First. Ah, my only experience with dungeons and dragons specifically is within fourth edition and fifth edition and as of the time of this recording I'm coming up on my thirteenth anniversary of ever having played ah dungeons and dragons for the very first time.

08:01.29
Alexi Sargeant
He's.

08:02.88
Holly Ordway
Well I will um, come in and say that I must be the creaky middle aged person amongst here because ah um I have have not played dungeon dragons for probably at least 35 years which been.

08:05.65
Katherine Spitler
And.

08:19.17
Holly Ordway
Kind of dates me back to ah well I played a little bit of dungeon dragon then advanced d and d and I um I remember seeing the second edition handbook come out and that you know I've I've still I've still got somewhere in my basement. The first edition monster manual with like the kind of hand-drawn.

08:35.37
Katherine Spitler
Oh You'renna throw that she like yeah.

08:35.64
sidekqpodcast
Ooh.

08:37.95
Holly Ordway
Super geeky. Um, ah pictures in the front and ah so I yeah I have limited experience playing because I was um with the only person I knew basically who was interested in D and D and so most of my time was spent creating. These large modules and masterminding being a dungeon master and making these adventures that um, that then no one would Play. Um, but ah, it was but it was still.. It was fun to it was fun to conceptualize it. It was and that was that was my my main experience was the Proto-duneon Master. Um.

09:02.70
sidekqpodcast
No no.

09:16.10
Holly Ordway
You know getting into it that way.

09:16.15
sidekqpodcast
Well I maybe I'll go ahead and take this opportunity now and pull back the curtain because 1 person on this panel has already played a game with you because. I had Dr Holly run one of the major faction npcs in the game that we played so you have had a little bit in fifth edition but it was mainly an ah asynchronous sort of like I would send you emails or messages and be like hey the players are doing this so what do you think you should do.

09:35.85
Holly Ordway
This is true.

09:38.26
Katherine Spitler
That's right.

09:49.70
sidekqpodcast
And then you would tell me I'd be like oh great cool and then I would throw problems in the faces of the players and be like well you know Savanna Poho here thinks that ah you know the colony arcanms goals are this so what do you say to that.

10:03.10
Holly Ordway
True I had I had um you had done such a great job of creating that world that I was sort of thinking of it. This is Kurt's world I wasn't thinking of it I actually was not thinking you it was being dungeon dragons. So well done cur and creating a world that was just so convincing as its own its own world. Yes, that was. That was jolly fun. Um.

10:23.92
sidekqpodcast
Oh cool. Yeah, so Mr Alexi what's ah, what's your experience like.

10:29.87
Alexi Sargeant
I have played a lot of different role playing games and a little bit of dungeons and Dragons I've played some fifth edition. Ah D and D with ah with friends and fellow gamers. Um, but I have tended to play more independent roleplay games and. Also create more independent role-playing games as you mentioned when you cited my cloven Pine games work.

10:52.46
sidekqpodcast
Okay, and then finally Miss Katherine

10:59.22
Katherine Spitler
Yes I think I must be the baby of the group as far as I started playing only a few years ago I started playing in person with um buzzards of the coast has a organized play league called ah adventures league and um. That's how I got started and then ah yeah, it's a only fifth edition and and I've followed artists who without knowing it um loving their work and it turns out they did art for like second edition and and and so on and so forth. So it's ah, really fun. So finally. Play the game that inspired so much of my favorite art growing up. So yeah.

11:40.18
sidekqpodcast
There we go now that you know the the cred the credentials of our panelists I think we can now begin these questions in earnest. So do you think that Tolkien would have liked playing dungeons and dragons considering that he'd passed away just before the hobby exploded in popularity. Ah, yeah, so what do you think.

12:04.30
Holly Ordway
Well I think I think probably yes or if he didn't enjoy it I think he would have I think he would have approved because he talks about writing his legendarium as as creating mythology for England Um, and and he. Envisions it as being something that other hands and other minds can can get involved with and of course he wasn't thinking about role-playing but the interactive element is something that had its place in the Christian stories to begin with because he would. He would tell some of these stories to his children.

12:25.85
Alexi Sargeant
Um.

12:37.84
Holly Ordway
Um, and even some of their toys. You know, be up becoming characters like Tom Boadil was originally one of the children's um is a dutch doll so you know if wonder where did Tom Balmy they'll come. Why is he so straight? Well he was originally a toy. Um and and yes and Bilbo um in the hobbit.

12:48.36
Katherine Spitler
Um, really.

12:52.69
Katherine Spitler
Um I had no idea.

12:57.62
Holly Ordway
Um, was originally named bingo after his daughter Priscilla's toy bear so he originally bingo bagins. We can all be grateful that he changed that because bingo bagins just no, no so I think there's that there's that sort of interactivity. Um, and then the fact that for instance. Um, his his son Michael had a fear spiders and so he put you know one of the reasons he put in this scene about um Bilbo fighting the spiders in um, in the hobbit is to kind of help him get over that. So I think that that sort of idea of interactivity. Would have resonated with him so that even if he didn't want to play it I think I think that he would have yeah thought it was a kind of a cool idea.

13:46.80
Alexi Sargeant
That's really interesting. Yeah I think my initial instinct was to say Tolkien would clearly have been the gm who spends hours and hours preparing you know the maps and the lore and the real question is would he actually enjoy. Playing it but that element of interactivity in the creation of like legendarium is really important to remember too. So maybe and maybe tolkit would have been running d and d for the younger tolkiens.

14:13.54
sidekqpodcast
If you haven't seen the Youtube video that Matt Colville did where he explains the difference between ah a railroad campaign and a sandbox campaign and he takes on the you know he takes on being j r r tolkien and he describes. Ah, the hobbit as a sandbox game. But then the lord of the rings is a railroad campaign. So. It's a very fun video as well. If you've never seen it.

14:32.70
Alexi Sargeant
Mean.

14:35.87
Katherine Spitler
Um, ah for my part I I would like to think so I am kind of in agreement with the others. Ah how they already touched on the ah. Just the nature of kind of improvised and expandable storytelling within that world and actually funnyly mentioned Alexi about like maps and stuff like that he Tolkien himself did illustrations and made maps to kind of help him you know envision in the story better in the locations and I think there's. Was looking on. Um the ah tolkina state's website for you kind of looking at this artwork again and sure enough there's an example of a map on grid paper now. It's the whole like continent but it it immediately struck me as like oh this this is totally I've seen maps like this on a game table. So. Yeah I think he would have enjoyed it.

15:28.49
Alexi Sargeant
Is it the map where he's burned a small hole accidentally with his pipe like right around um fangorn forest.

15:32.34
Katherine Spitler
Oh I I know what you're talking about I don't know if it's that exact moment but I I have seen that? yeah.

15:41.43
Holly Ordway
The only thing I think that might maybe cause him some concern is you know whether people who if they were the question would be whether they were playing a game set in his in his legendarium or just playing them in general. Um I think the idea of the interactive storytelling. Absolutely.

15:51.36
sidekqpodcast
M.

15:53.46
Katherine Spitler
And.

15:59.55
Holly Ordway
I Think that if he were envisioning playing a game within his own world I think he would I think he would again be fine with that. But I think his expectation would be that it would be consistent with his basic values his basic worldview because that's really.

16:14.18
Alexi Sargeant
E.

16:15.44
Katherine Spitler
A.

16:18.19
Holly Ordway
To the whole structure of Middle Earth and that you know you couldn't for instance have characters you know evil characters winning the day and I think and it still be consistent with his ethos. Well okay, they could with day. Um, but I think he would.

16:32.69
sidekqpodcast
M.

16:37.16
Holly Ordway
Probably find it a bit repugnant to think that you could play a character as being evil and and kind of aim to win win that way I think that would grate a bit against his understanding of the kind of the point of the stories. Um, that's a bit of a tension that might might arise.

16:49.61
Katherine Spitler
A.

16:55.78
sidekqpodcast
Yeah, and it's I I do know that there is a 5 v compatible product that's out that's called adventures in Middle Earth and so it's basically a ah a skin that you can put on the fifth edition mechanics. There's a couple of other concepts that are introduced. But yeah, basically nowadays with modern dungeons and dragons you can play in the realms of Middle Earth and have your own characters. But there's more to do with like corruption and stuff I have a couple of the books but I haven't actually sat down and played a version of that game and I'm sure you know through history like collectible trading card games and. Stuff like that. There have been other attempts at ah, you know as Dr Holley was alluding to with ah getting in you know, playing in the realm of the legendarium but his expectation perhaps of like well you should be good characters. You should want to be evil characters which is interesting. So um.

17:39.88
Alexi Sargeant
This gets at I think this gets up what's going to be 1 of the big questions of this conversation which is what type of a debt does dungeons and dragons owe to Tolkien and you know does dungeons and dragons.

17:44.57
Holly Ordway
You know? sorry.

17:48.45
sidekqpodcast
E.

17:59.49
Alexi Sargeant
You know, writ large considered as an entity get Tolkien right? like or is it only at sort of the surface level that we have a tolenesque influence on d and d as a game right? Do do the themes get through or is it just elves and dwarves and magic rings with.

18:01.86
sidekqpodcast
M.

18:02.32
Katherine Spitler
You.

18:17.16
Alexi Sargeant
Yeah, a totally different ethos undergirding it.

18:21.17
sidekqpodcast
Yeah, so I think that that'll seggue into the question here. Ah to quote from the Wikipedia page on dungeons and dragons the world of d and d was influenced by world mythology history pulp fiction and contemporary fantasy novels.

18:26.48
Alexi Sargeant
He.

18:35.97
sidekqpodcast
The importance of jr are tolkiens the lord of the rings and the hobbit as an influence on d and d is controversial the presence in the game of halflings elves half elves dwarves orcs rangers and the like as well as the convention of diverse adventurers forming a group draw comparisons to these works.

18:41.94
Katherine Spitler
Okay.

18:54.94
sidekqpodcast
The resemblance was even closer before the threat of copyright action from Tolkien estate from Tolkien enterprises prompted the name changes of hobbit to halfffling and to triant and ballrog to balllor for many years Guyax played.

18:58.10
Katherine Spitler
Okay.

19:12.88
sidekqpodcast
Down the influence of Tolkien on the development of the game. However, in an interview in the year two thousand he acknowledged that Tolkien's work had a quote strong impact though. He also said that the list of other influential authors was long. So do you think Tolkien's influence over d and d is controversial. Why are why not.

19:30.67
Holly Ordway
I think not at all controversial I think you they're saying controversial is to try to to say? No no, we're not actually plagiarizing. No no, it's a bit obvious that it's it's heavily influenced from from Tolkien.

19:32.42
Alexi Sargeant
Yeah I thought.

19:46.73
Katherine Spitler
Um, absolutely agree.

19:46.88
Alexi Sargeant
Yeah, it insofar as Colkin. You know, invented the modern fantasy genre right? Like they're clearly drawing him. Theyre drawing and other things too right? There's there's a lot of you know Conan the barbarian and you know a kind of pulp fantasy stuff. In the mix but clearly Tolkien is a you know, massive influence and the question is just exactly what was derived from him.

20:15.94
Holly Ordway
But I do think you know what you I think was what you brought up Alexi um, or maybe maybe it was who um I think I do think that the influence is largely skin deep. Um, and that's something you know I did i. Did my doctoral dissertation on the on the history of the fantasy novel the modern fantasy novel and looked at Tolkien and what came before and what came after this was sort of the pre the precursor to my tolkiensmon reading book. Um, but 1 of the things that I saw was.

20:32.26
Alexi Sargeant
He.

20:40.39
Alexi Sargeant
Nice.

20:46.47
Holly Ordway
That there had been. You know a fair amount of diversity and fantasy before Tolkien. Um, but oddly enough I would make the argument that Tolen's lord of the rings is so good and so amazing that it actually has been like a black hole for.

21:02.60
Katherine Spitler
Yeah.

21:04.36
Holly Ordway
Um, american fantayur in particular um because it has had sort of warped the whole field at least it's beginning to come out of it now. But if you look at the 1970 s 1980 s everything's a Tolkien knockoff here know like ballentyne books and whatnot. They're just like okay how can we sell another gajillion copies just like lord of the rings.

21:14.83
Alexi Sargeant
In.

21:18.94
Katherine Spitler
Um.

21:23.78
Holly Ordway
Let's make something that's just like lord of their rings. We won't get sued so we'll change. We'll change some stuff rehash the story and you get all this sort of pulpy. You know you know David Eddings and and Terry Brooks and you know that that kind of stuff. Um. And it's over generic and it's it's all recycling the same sorts of quasi- medieval world quasiieval tropes you've got a quest. You've got some unlikely heroes you have this mixed fellowship. Um, you've got elves and dwarves and and they become set in these characteristics that tolki has set them in. But of course they don't have the nuance. Um, everything in in Middle Earth has got all these deep roots that these these guys don't have um and I think it's that surface level stuff that we're that we're getting with with d and d.

22:00.17
Alexi Sargeant
E.

22:17.34
Holly Ordway
Um, which is fun I mean it's it's It's fun stuff but it's very much. It's the trappings rather than the really the the heart of it I would think.

22:29.26
Alexi Sargeant
Perhaps this is the moment for me to plug one of my own role playing games. Ah so I you know thought about this a lot like what is it? That's what is it that we love most in Tolkien and.

22:33.77
sidekqpodcast
Sure Yeah, go for it.

22:45.41
Alexi Sargeant
Is that present in say dungeons and dragons by default is that supported by the mechanics of dungeons and dragons I guess is what I'm really saying and I'd argue. No I'd argue you know I love the moments of fellowship. The kind of moments of hoping against hope right characters. Pulling together when all seems darkest characters offering encouragement to 1 another sam carrying Frodo you know in the land of mordor itself and that isn't necessarily what dungeons and dragons is concerned with if you're counting your hit points and seeing if you can. You know, add up your damage around to you defeat the the big ballrog or troll right? That's that's kind of more the surface level of of Tolkiken. You're imitating and so I wanted to create a game that was specifically about all those moments I love the most in tokien. Ah, that that aren't exactly d and d moments so back again from the broken land is the name of this game. The the we wear the influence right? there on the title ah were ah.

23:56.56
Alexi Sargeant
It's a game where you play as small adventurers making the long walk home from an epic war so heavily inspired by say you know Bilbo's Homeward Journey or Frodo and Sam's homeward journey right? like you are these hobbit like people who've become part of this great and epic adventure and the game picks up with you. Ah. On your homeward journey. So you know if you if you didn't get picked up by the Eagles After Mount Doom what if you had to walk home and along the way. Yes, yeah, if you have to walk. You know what do you do? well in our game you you share meals.

24:23.89
sidekqpodcast
You're having to hoof it. Yeah.

24:27.25
Katherine Spitler
Um.

24:31.42
Alexi Sargeant
You kind of reckon with the burdens you're carrying from from the adventures you've gone on and you'll find ways to to offer what comfort you can to 1 another to to share your stories ah perhaps name and clear your burdens. It's ah it's not a game where you fight. In fact, you can. Your options for when things are dangerous are just to run or to hide. Ah but it is a game that you know encourages you to think about the kind of emotional and thematic and kind of you know, even providential side of these ah these fantasy stories and.

24:52.21
Katherine Spitler
Are.

25:09.16
Alexi Sargeant
Hopefully in that way it gets at some of what what I love and what my wife Leah love most in Tolkien because we collaborated on creating back again from the broken land.

25:20.70
sidekqpodcast
It's really nice. It's a you know, not a not a super big book or anything I know I I backed the kickstarter on it and so I've got it on my my bookshelf and so I would love to you know, find that time to sit down and and play and play a tokiness sort of story with my friends. That's not necessarily the normal like. Okay, we're gonna kick the door down on the dungeon and fireball whatever is on the other side of the door.

25:41.71
Alexi Sargeant
Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, one of my favorite things is in the process of working on the game. You know we realized oh man this this move share a meal is overpowered. We have to nerf it because our our first draft our first draft of share a meal was just too powerful fictionally. And we had to slightly tone it down but it's still it's still a crucial, a crucial move because if you're playing hobbit like characters. You know that sharing meals is going to be really important.

26:06.20
sidekqpodcast
Second breakfast eleven z's t yeah, all that good stuff. Okay.

26:12.10
Katherine Spitler
Um.

26:15.17
Holly Ordway
So that that's kind of the thematic you know so the thematic elements of Tolkien getting getting into a role-playing game. Um I was thinking about you know if coming out from a little bit of a different angle I think there's an opportunity in the the dungeon master you know gm role. Ah. That you can in a way kind of take part in the tolkinian experience that way. Not so much in what the lord the rings is but to kind of get into Tolkien's headspace in terms of creating it and I think that's something that really appealed to me and perhaps.

26:38.93
Alexi Sargeant
Um, is.

26:50.58
Holly Ordway
You know since I've I've always loved Tolkien I've I've read him I don't I didn't I don't even know when I first read Tolkien I just have always known his his works. Um, but I just remember just you know, planning out doing these maps you know and little coastlines drawing a little you know for it not and not looking as nice as tolkiens obviously.

27:07.57
Alexi Sargeant
Are.

27:09.56
Holly Ordway
You know and then just planning these these big complexes and granted I mean there were these little dungeon rooms and graph paper with like skeletons in the you know room a and room b or whatever which is you know, not very deep but but the idea of envisioning like a scenario a place and thinking what might be. History of it where might it be um I know for me creatively that that was a that was satisfying in itself. Um, and I think it's probably not a coincidence that you know I've become a Tolkien scholar lots of different threads involved in that. But I think.

27:43.18
Alexi Sargeant
Um, city.

27:46.89
Holly Ordway
A sort of um attraction to the that Uber detailed creative side um is is just it's part of it's part of where there's a connection to D and D and and roleplaying games in general I think.

28:04.43
Katherine Spitler
Yeah I'll chime in here. You guys have already covered much of what I think I agree largely that for the most part. It's pretty surface level and I'll say also it has a lot to do with your gm as well as the people you're playing with i've. Bin campaigns where it was all hack and slash and loot the dungeon and just you know that that kind of ah a dynamic but I've also been a player and a dm very very lucky to have players who are willing to kind of take the minute and kind of explore these. Relationships or questions of you know morality and kind of those were the times where I felt like okay here are echoes of a tolkienesque story. Um, and I'd also say at least for me growing up Tolkien was probably. Tolgan and Lewis actually through chronicles in arnia they were my first exposure to the concept of world building and then growing up and kind of reading more fantasy and just consuming you know media and whatnot and coming up with my own stories that I would you know draw to. But then discovering d and d it was like oh here is a system in which like there are established settings or literally books you can buy and just read and play and they're wonderful, but it's really when discovering just how ah what am I trying to say like how it allows one to.

29:34.81
Katherine Spitler
Kind of use the the skeleton the framework of just the mechanics of the game and build your entirely own you know world and story and so in that regard I think it it owes a great deal at least for me to Tolkien just that he for me was kind of like the og world I know he and he he owed so much of his own world building. Building to mythology and and other you know great stories and worlds that other writers had created beforehand. But yeah.

29:59.96
Alexi Sargeant
Yeah, perhaps that's maybe the like best tie in here that dungeons and dragons as a hobby is this big permission to subcreate right? That's this big permission slip for participants to engage in.

30:11.36
Katherine Spitler
Yes, exactly.

30:17.49
Alexi Sargeant
Myth a poetic play right in in in mythmaking. Perhaps that's the best tie to your Tolkeenns tolkens interests and you know beliefs about human nature he he would he would you know on some level have to have to approve that. Mythmaking is being so encouraged in the people who participate in the hobby.

30:40.24
Holly Ordway
Yeah, and yeah and and looking at the history of the of the genre I mean he and Lewis are really the first ones to to to develop quite such a fleshed out world I mean yeah, edison kind of does in Ziyamvia but in my view not as successfully. By a long shot. Um, and if you look at other fantasy authors before them like yeah, they just don't do that they they might have a little fantasy world but to have a whole world like Narnia again with maps and a history. You know a long history and to have this I mean there's nothing like the legendary of Tolkien. Ever in any literature ever. So yeah, that you know that in the self you're right? that is kind of a permission slip. That's ah, kind of a cool, a cool connection.

31:31.72
sidekqpodcast
All right I wanted to think up of a fun question here. So ah, you know since halfling and triens and ballors. You know all got name changes because the original Tolkien properties were in the first iterations of the game before they were like hey now.

31:47.27
Katherine Spitler
And.

31:47.61
sidekqpodcast
Can't be doing this nonsense this question. What's another thing from Tolkien's work that early original dungeons and dragons should have tried to rip off and what would they have called it to avoid the wrath of the Tolkien estates.

32:02.51
Alexi Sargeant
I Mean what's what's left that they didn't that they didn't already try in some way here I guess they could.

32:02.81
Katherine Spitler
Are.

32:07.36
sidekqpodcast
Maybe it's also just a question of like how deep into the nerddom. Do you get where you're like oh yes, this obscure little little short story that he wrote Yes, they should have used this kind of creature something.

32:17.84
Katherine Spitler
And.

32:23.53
Holly Ordway
Well these he doesn't really invent a lot of creatures that's kind of one of the interesting things is. It's there's such depth and texture to his world but he he somehow manages to do it without ah ah without overdoing it. You know? So when you do meet a new being like the like the ends it's like wow you're not meeting a new being every 5 pages. So I think that there's a kind of economy of of of that in a sense in in the world.

32:55.63
Alexi Sargeant
I guess I guess d and d could have had a like you know, mysterious song singing you know woodswelling npc called bomb Tom Badel his his jacket is yellow and his boots are blue.

33:07.40
sidekqpodcast
Mm there. We go. 1 of the deedy figures running around the world of Gray Hawk or something like that.

33:19.30
Alexi Sargeant
Yeah, so some some ambiguity there be some ambiguity about his exact like metaphysical status.

33:21.70
Katherine Spitler
Here.

33:26.82
sidekqpodcast
M.

33:34.92
Holly Ordway
I Suppose they could have tried to make a ah race out of golem and and made called them this the mebus or something.

33:42.30
sidekqpodcast
Um, the corrupted halfling race Interesting. Okay, that's pretty cool I mean unless they would say like oh that's just a goblin or something like that. That's another small.

33:42.49
Alexi Sargeant
Um, oh dear.

33:43.79
Holly Ordway
Exactly he has oh dear indeed.

33:47.96
Katherine Spitler
Ah.

33:57.23
sidekqpodcast
Humanoid creature that you can play. That's not a halfling but a goblin or something now at least nowadays in fifth edition you can play as a goblin character which is what is pretty cool. So.

34:06.69
Alexi Sargeant
I guess that's um I mean total nerd tangent here right? like Tolkien doesn't think goblins and orcs are different right? like there's are just different names for the same type of creature in his world but kind of from d and d on everyone's wanted to have a real like. Taxonomy they were like well goblins are smaller and sneakier and orcs are bigger and dumber you know and I think that's kind of ah you know, ah an interested taxonomy that kind of went beyond what tolken applied to ah to like that part of his world.

34:40.66
Holly Ordway
Well, the interesting thing about the goblelins and the ors is that they they were really not. They were not very well thought out um in a sense which is remarkable thing to say about anything in Tolens world. But it's the only thing because the the goblins in originate in the hobbits and the. And the hobbits goblins are straight out of George Mcdonald and Sayss and curty books and he acknowledges that um, and if you look at that which is one I looked at and my book tolensmonana reading. They are very Mcdonald Goblins and he he just names that straight out that the goblins are Mcdonald Goblins and

35:03.80
Alexi Sargeant
Um, who.

35:19.50
Holly Ordway
That's appropriate for the children's book. Um, and they're a little bit sillier. They're a little bit lighter in tone. They're dangerous. They're still dangerous. They get dark the book proceeds. But I think you can definitely see that their inspiration is the so children's literature folklore goblin of Mcdonald.

35:25.30
Katherine Spitler
Okay.

35:26.50
Alexi Sargeant
Um, he.

35:38.55
Holly Ordway
And then when you get to you know the lord of the rings. Everything is darker. Everything is more serious and I think that's one of the reasons that he switched over to using Orc because it meant that he was able to make the shift over from like to the right tonal quality for these creatures of souron.

35:47.86
Alexi Sargeant
Um.

35:57.89
Holly Ordway
But I think you so you see some of that baggage still in the the very ambiguous moral status of the orcs. Um, and this is something I know Kurt you wanted to bring up. So maybe this is a good a good moment for it. Ah, because people are very exercised over are the orcs intrinsically evil or not yeah are they redeemable or are they permanently corrupted. What are the orcs and the short answer is the Tolkien himself never figured it out. He was troubled by the question of their morality because.

36:20.42
Alexi Sargeant
Are.

36:29.10
Holly Ordway
His worldview being catholic he knew that nothing is evil from the beginning nothing is created to be evil. Um, so the orphs cannot have been created by aru luvatar as evil beings they have to be corrupted in some way by Sauron well corrupted from what. Or altern they're not real sentient beings. Um, and that's what he shifts to a little bit later that they're more like ants that they have a hive mind in a sense that saen is controlling them. They mimic speech but they don't have real sentience. Um. So that's one of the reasons why at the end although it works sort of flea mindlessly as if he even uses the analogy of the ants scattering from the the anthill but he never he never quite came to terms with it and you know that's part of the That's part. The tricky thing about like what whoa. What's the moral status the orcs well Tolkien himself was still figuring that out.

37:28.20
Katherine Spitler
M.

37:29.63
sidekqpodcast
Yeah, no I have the question right here we can jump around and skip around however much we want. So yeah, totally I'll go ahead and intro the question so we can yeah continue the fruitful discussion. So. D and d and the ttrpg hobby have struggled for the last fifty years with finding compelling dramatic and heroic stories often at the expense of orcs goblins the drow teafllings and even recently the haday from spelljammer with tone deaf storytelling willful ignorance and questionable lore implications. People like to cite how Tolkien conceptualized the physical appearance of orcs and the men of the easterlings and the harrim who allied themselves with mordar. How do you think Tolkien addressed issues of racism bio essentialism and prejudice in his day. And what do you think he would say now to people who are seeking for more inclusive stories in multiple dimensions are we are people wrong to blame Tolkien for when people look at his writings and say well if Tolkien said this then it's okay for me to describe x in a way that is clearly a stand in. For this thing I don't agree with or I have an issue with like because of how Tolkien visualized orcs for all time we have to associate orcs as murderous unintelligent uncultured humanoids that are always evil and there's no way to redeem them.

38:47.53
Holly Ordway
Well I have I have lots to say on the subject. But so I don't want to be the first because.

38:51.79
Katherine Spitler
Actually I have a follow up for you. Dr Holwley because it's admittedly been a few years since I did a full read through of the rings. But I also grew up with the Peter Jackson movies and I'm pretty sure somewhere in there. They kind of give an explanation I think it was sarahmon who's like do you know how. Elves came to be the orcs came to be and he gave explanation like oh they used to be elves and they were corrupted so it's interesting to hear your your insight that it wasn't actually with that wasn't actually his intention. Okay.

39:23.75
Holly Ordway
Oh that's one of the possibilities see but because he never he never came to sort of a canonical you know answer which is why it's it'll be all these different sort of explorations of it. Um, you know what were they.

39:33.12
Katherine Spitler
Um, okay.

39:39.60
Holly Ordway
And and and the one about them being not really sentient is is one of his later writings. So I think that's where he was trending towards but you know it's It's hard to say he was playing around he was playing around with it.

39:46.62
Katherine Spitler
Um, and.

39:52.81
Katherine Spitler
Um, interesting.

39:53.65
Alexi Sargeant
It feels like this is this is a little bit of so I'm but just going to link it to a totally different fantasy series for a moment. Um the red wall series by Brian Jakes is a very fun series for young adults. Um.

39:59.79
Katherine Spitler
Um.

40:05.61
Katherine Spitler
A.

40:07.67
Alexi Sargeant
These kind of stories of medievalesque adventures in a world of woodland creatures and there's a sort of similar like bioesentialist question that eventually emerges because it's like all the mice and squirrels and hairs are good guys and all the rats and stoats and weasels are bad guys. You always. Is this saying like you know good and evil are sort of inbred. You're like or you all kind of gene deep right? and I think the answer is no, not exactly because they're you know they are kind of beast fable characters right? Where the the fact someone is you know a like. Ah, brave but overmatched. You know, young warrior means they should be depicted as a mouse and the fact someone is a cruel and ravenous tyrant means they should be depicted as a rat right? like the kind of things that we associate with the animals are kind of being put on the characters by. The way they are made characters and that kind of becomes problematic when it's say like multi-generational fantasy epic and that and it feels like something similar is happening with orcs where on some level they are just a sort of representation of evil right? like they you know, kind of. Serve as foot soldiers of the enemy and stand in for just the forces of darkness even like spiritual darkness right? But then because it's because Lord of the rings is you know a a work with a kind of.

41:39.81
Alexi Sargeant
Historical feel right? and like has this you know Lyn Darum it's connected with that that gives a sense of like ah your big like political change over the course of all the ages of Middle Earth then then you know it stops feeling totally comfortable to just say like ah there are whole groups of. Ah, beings that sort of serve like ah a symbolic function and we start asking those questions of like wait. What happens if an oro doesn't want to serve star like are there is there such a thing as like free will for creatures of this sort and it feels like there's this kind of.

42:12.10
Katherine Spitler
And.

42:17.36
Alexi Sargeant
In both these instances some of those questions arise because multiple multiple genres are intersecting in the work in a way that doesn't necessarily leave an easy leave an easy answer but which kind of explains why we get those kind of strong strong associations of ah. Negative traits with 1 group.

42:37.20
Holly Ordway
Yeah I think that's like that's a good point Alexi there's the mythic mode you know in which certain aspects of the human experience are being projected onto. You know, different characters and different I mean the elves friendss of the dwarfs you know, tolki himself talked about how they are in a certain sense.

42:46.30
Alexi Sargeant
Is.

42:55.48
Holly Ordway
You know reflections of different aspects of the human experience. So yeah, the Orcs themselves are then representing a certain kind of brutality. Um, but it's interesting that you know you know it become more problematic when you have a generational thing. It's worth noting that we never ever hear about work families are no little orcs. Um.

42:56.55
Alexi Sargeant
Um, yeah.

43:01.12
Alexi Sargeant
Are.

43:10.96
Alexi Sargeant
Right.

43:12.23
Katherine Spitler
And.

43:15.70
Holly Ordway
Never anywhere in the legendarium to my knowledge is there any indication of of there being sort of a reproduction of of works and so you do again, get that kind of insectile. Um or corrupted you know, being like they're not They're not a kind of species in the same way that other other creatures are um so that's that's an interesting point but I want to connect this to to some of the other things that we we tend so easily to look at just the orcs and at 1 or 2 you know, perhaps unfortunate and not perhaps some. Unfortunate phrasings that he used in describing them. But I think there's a couple contextual points that are important one is to look at Tolkien in the context of his time and how literature of his time and and what what he read me is growing up. How did those books talk about for instance people of color. I read those books in order to get a context when I was looking for doing tolkimon reading. Oh my word. Oh my word it was revolting. You know the kind of just outright toe curling racism in ordinary language like.

44:08.71
Alexi Sargeant
Um.

44:28.15
Holly Ordway
Okay, it made you realize we've made a lot of progress. Um, and so it puts a very different slant on the occasional phrasing that's slightly maybe not as it should be when you look at what was totally the norm for talking about people of other races and ethnicities like okay, that's 1 thing. And then you look at how does tolkin actually treat um human beings or sentient beings who are of other races and cultures well leave aside the orcs because we know the orcs are sort of problematic. Are they do they have free will are they really sentient. We don't know toen tokien didn't really know. But if we look friends instance at the men of hirodrim those are the only ones who are from the deep south a mortar incidentally is in the latitude of italy um, and the orcs incidentally. Have a lot to do with romans they have a lot of characteristics of of romans ancient romans whom Tolkien had a very low opinion of um so we should think of them as marigning romans um, rather than you know from the deep south but the herum. For instance, we have that marvelous picture of Sam seeing the fallen warrior and. Looking at him with the exotic trappings and the brown skin and thinking what lies was he told that that brought him here you know did he did he really want to be here. It's a very much ah a humanizing view of the other um which is.

45:55.12
Holly Ordway
And the opposite of of racist or then we have you know the wild men um Gonbugan um and they're they're depicted very much as aboriginals. Um, and you even have ayomer who's one of the roherem.

46:07.85
Alexi Sargeant
Um.

46:13.26
Holly Ordway
Who's quite racist towards them. He's like oh what do they know? How can they help us and it turns out that they know more than than he does Theodin believes him takes him seriously trust him they prove to be knowledgeable, faithful, helpful and then in the end at the very end of the story. Ericgorn as king gives them the the forest and says you know this is now you're a territory. The the men of ro of Rohan will never. They will never hunt you like wild beasts again and I think this is really interesting because Tolkien's acknowledging that the men of raherem who are otherwise very heroic. Have actually a racist um past because they have they have been hunting the wild men like beasts and and treating them as subhuman and there's a reckoning with that within the lord of the rings. So I think that's the kind of.

47:08.68
Holly Ordway
Thing It's important to counterbalance to looking at say the orcs because we have this very sensitive treatment of the genuinely sentient other even when presented as unattractive to the eyes like say of the Roherem and and then.

47:22.39
Alexi Sargeant
He.

47:26.33
Holly Ordway
Last point is that the Peter Jackson films have messed with people's perceptions because in the books tolkiens very clear that a lot of the hobbits are dark skinned like about a third of the hobbits he says are brownskinned you know, um.

47:41.29
Alexi Sargeant
Including Sam Wise Ga

47:42.69
Holly Ordway
Exactly sam has described multiple times as being brown skinned. So I think arguably in the lord of the rings. One of the most heroic characters in the entire book is a hobbit of color and we don't see that because John asked in this pasty white.

47:44.97
Katherine Spitler
Um.

47:55.49
Katherine Spitler
Wow.

47:55.78
Alexi Sargeant
Um, da.

48:01.64
sidekqpodcast
Ah, but much love to Sean Aston you know you you know he's one of the goonies. He's one of the he's one of the ogs. So.

48:05.58
Holly Ordway
Oh he's he's wonderful Shana. He's wonderful. Did a great job portraying Sam but I think this has has blinded people to Tolkien's treatment of race that they think oh they see an all-white cast of hobbits and they think that tolki himself made an all-white castoff. Well no.

48:06.68
Katherine Spitler
That.

48:25.17
Holly Ordway
So he didn't He did definitely didn't.

48:26.38
sidekqpodcast
So then the Amazon show is right when that whole caravan of of halflings are you know of color so everyone was freaking out for no reason they're actually doing the source material justice.

48:28.32
Alexi Sargeant
That's a really interesting point. Yeah for.

48:40.25
Alexi Sargeant
I think the the bigger question. So um, we could spend a lot of time talking about rings of power. Um the bigger question with rings of power casting. Is you know does it does it make sense right? like. Because they're casting talented actors of many races and that's that's that's wonderful, but often you know in kind of family groupings that that don't seem to make sense right? like it's treating race as like a you know, characteristic. You can you can like toggle for any individual character without it affecting their like place in. The world and the the families that they're part of so anyway it was intriguing to me, you know, but but I'm not sure it totally held together. You know on that level or on other levels has a ah derivative work based on ah based on Tolkien. Um.

49:32.89
sidekqpodcast
Although I was at when ah Dr Holly was pointing out like oh there's no examples of lineage in stuff like that for orcs or anything the I got an inkling of an idea ah with the with the Jackson Hobbit trilogy I'm pretty sure that the one orc. That when after Thor an oaken shield is like aog I think is his name and he's described as like the son of another orc or something like that and ah, that's the only instance I have of of thinking of maybe anything in like the movie space or something. Declaring like oh this orc is the son of this other orc or whatever. Yeah.

50:10.99
Holly Ordway
Yeah, and I would I would have to double check I'm not sure whether that's in the hobbit text or not I don't the other. Um, but again the hobbit is is the first place that the that the goblins are sketched out and he's not doing anything systematic at that point.

50:15.94
sidekqpodcast
Um.

50:20.62
sidekqpodcast
M.

50:21.99
Katherine Spitler
A.

50:26.72
Alexi Sargeant
Yeah rings of power has like the really interesting thing of this you know, father figure for all the orcs right? Which yeah, kind of going with the like corrupted elves theory. He's this sort of half half elf seeming.

50:34.74
sidekqpodcast
I.

50:35.54
Katherine Spitler
And.

50:45.11
Alexi Sargeant
You know proto orc who's leading them and whether or not that can that totally fits in Tolkiens kind of ultimate conception of the ors. It made for an interesting element of the show I don't know that the show like explored it with the the type of feel. Inside I might hope that they did but it had a lot of potential as a you know an addition to the mythology right? An intriguing one I guess.

51:15.17
sidekqpodcast
We ready for another question. Okay, how do you think the various films Radio plays Orchestra Concerts staged plays Internet Memes video games collectible card games branded tabletop roleplaying and war games.

51:17.67
Alexi Sargeant
Totally.

51:18.90
Katherine Spitler
Sure.

51:35.70
sidekqpodcast
And an Amazon prime billion dollar show of Tolkien's legendarium affected all aspects of popular culture and media.

51:44.89
Alexi Sargeant
Well, we were kind of just getting into this with ah some thoughts about the way various adaptations have portrayed elements of the lord of the rings.

51:56.14
sidekqpodcast
I mean yeah I mean you can't you can't go very far without scrolling through somewhere like Facebook Instagram or x Twitter and no not see some sort of delightful ah Lord of the rings Peter Jackson meme across your feed. You're like ah yes, this springs.

52:09.31
Katherine Spitler
And.

52:15.10
sidekqpodcast
Joy to me.

52:21.35
Katherine Spitler
Yeah I mean but besides being highly memeable. Um, it kind of goes back a little bit to what we're talking about like its influence on role playing games I mean just from an aesthetic point of view any at least in my lifetime. Any. Show or movie or any visual representation. For example, it's like elves well prior to a certain time in media when you said elf, you would think this little tiny mischievous person with big shoes and you know goofy ears. But after Tolkien at least my own perception of it is that. All of a sudden when you say elf. Oh it's not Santa's elves it's the beautiful tall ethereal gorgeous you know person and ah yeah I mean that's across the board. Um, from like you said other tabletop games card games to you know. These huge budget you know shows and yeah it is just ah huh yeah, that's that's totally one of them. Um, and on all the other kind of yeah, all the other like classic you know, elves dwarves. Um.

53:18.84
sidekqpodcast
Dragon age. Yeah or skyrim. Yeah.

53:33.51
Katherine Spitler
You know to a certain extent how certain humans and their cultures are are portrayed even though we have this vast you know field of mythology of our own you know outside of tolken to to draw upon but there's always just a little little spice in there. That's that's always to me smells of you know tokens influence.

53:54.46
Holly Ordway
Anyway, part of it might even date back before the lord of the rings because one of the things that Tolkien did that shaped culture was to make beowulf into a big deal again when he was before he did a major lecture on Beowulf the monsters and the critics in ah the 1930 s

54:02.15
Alexi Sargeant
He.

54:05.62
Katherine Spitler
Um, and.

54:12.21
Holly Ordway
And before then Beowulf was was ah a very disregarded text. It was only used as a sort of vocabulary list for old english vocabulary words people like ah has like monsters in how childish.

54:23.88
Katherine Spitler
Um, oh.

54:26.37
Holly Ordway
And Tolkien said no this is a great story and and he changed the entire face of of old english scholarship by putting Beowulf back on the map as a piece of literature and we can take that for granted because I mean I've taught you know I've taught beowulf you know as ah as a classic text and. But its classic tech status really dates you know from after 1936 um, in terms of being part a recognized part of the of the canon as ah as a work of literature and it's got grendel who is an amazing monster Grendel's mother and the dragon. And so in a sense that Tolkien brought the monsters back into the limelights even before he popularized them in ah in his own stories.

55:14.44
Alexi Sargeant
Right? The the monsters and the critics is his kind of famous. You know, intervention in Beowulf Scholarship that made a made such a big impact. Um, let me pick a less important but ah more recent element here. Um, the magic the gathering card game just did a a crossover where they got you know the rights to do lord of the rings based cards not based on the movies right? based on the books so they had you know a whole set of magic cards where you can play aorn and Frodo and.

55:34.84
sidekqpodcast
Yes.

55:36.43
Katherine Spitler
A.

55:44.48
Katherine Spitler
Okay.

55:52.50
Alexi Sargeant
Gandalf and gladriel and sauron and battled them out in in magic and I think there are elements here where they got really like they did some designs that were very clearly you know based on. Based on the stories based on the characters in ways that felt that felt appropriate and and flavorful and then there were a few misses for me that I think are kind of instructive about what what is hard to capture when you're doing a tolkeenn adaptation. So um, there was a whole food mechanic and a lot of the hobbit cards had to do with food and I'm very pro this. Ah. There were there was also of course like just like cute little things like the Witch King is indestructible. But then there's a there's a card you can play ao that takes away his indestructibility representing the moment where a owen reveals that she is no mortal man and she may hinder him. Um.

56:43.12
Katherine Spitler
Good life.

56:45.26
Alexi Sargeant
But so a central mechanic was called the ring tempts you ah and the problem for me is the ring Tempts. You mechanic was good right? like you. It It was there. There was no like inherent downside to being tempted by the ring. You could just like keep getting tempted by the ring. It would make you more likely to win the game and that feels very much like borair's perspective on the ring not tolkins perspective on the ring right? like the.

56:58.42
Katherine Spitler
Um, um.

57:11.83
Katherine Spitler
Um, okay.

57:12.93
Alexi Sargeant
The the head designer was asked about this. He's like well when we put a downside to the ring tempting you people didn't want to play that Mechanic. It's like well. But if the mechanic if you're making a mechanic based on the temptation of the ring. It's kind of pretty key to the story Tol Good road. The ring is tempting but it's a bad idea to yield to that temptation and that perhaps shows why you know a game that's essentially all about combat is always going to miss some important things in in you know, blood the rings when it's adapting it.

57:41.37
Katherine Spitler
A.

57:45.30
Holly Ordway
Yeah, he's That's a really good point and here I mean it's been longer since I've long time since I didn't need playing D and D but I was a very serious magic gathering player when I was in grad school like I was really into magic the gathering. Um and I can get date myself by the fact that I remember when ice age came out.

57:53.82
Alexi Sargeant
Nice.

57:56.59
sidekqpodcast
Um, m.

58:02.36
Holly Ordway
Um, that was a while ago. Um, so I would and I did tournaments and things like that it was. It was great. Fun. Um, that was a huge marker of my my graduate school experience didn't last Beyond grad school. But ah, but it was fun. It was fun at the time. Um, but.

58:02.86
Alexi Sargeant
Ah, yes that that was a while ago.

58:19.90
Holly Ordway
The whole point of magic the gathering is that it's a competition that you are trying to defeat the other person and that in a sense is just about the least tolkinian approach you could take because role-playing is different role-playing you're unfolding all sorts of different stories and narratives that will have con. Reflect. But there's lots of ways that can play out but to have to be I'm going to defeat the other player which is the entire point of magic the gathering. That's a dynamic that doesn't quite sit right with the central sort of aspects of ah. of of tolkiens tolkiens world. It's one of the reasons why I think the um, the hobbit films just missed the missed the boat entirely I really I love Jackson's um Lord of the rings films especially the extent editions. But oh my word, the hobbit is not an action adventure movie. It's just not.

59:18.51
Alexi Sargeant
Ah, and and the graphics sometimes look like a video game.

59:18.86
Holly Ordway
Misplaces I think.

59:24.50
Holly Ordway
Yes, well it looked like they were trying to do a ah precell to have it be a ah you know a Disneyland ride.

59:29.00
Alexi Sargeant
He he.

59:35.25
sidekqpodcast
Okay, um, okay there she is okay, cool I just wanted to make sure ah could I guess test in the microphone Catherine make sure we're picking you up and stuff.

59:45.84
Holly Ordway
Are you are you there.

59:48.39
sidekqpodcast
I Know she's texting she said we all froze I know it was trying to tell me that she had some connection issues but she's back now.

59:53.84
Holly Ordway
Ah, Sheila's prison

59:54.30
Alexi Sargeant
Ah.

59:59.60
Holly Ordway
Right? I race she's she's moving again. So I trust we we we will be wrapping up relatively soon I think I'm I'm fading myself I'm fading a little bit.

01:00:13.00
sidekqpodcast
Ah, oh you're fading.

01:00:13.22
Alexi Sargeant
Could.

01:00:17.48
Holly Ordway
I Don't know how long you're planning on going. We've gone an hour. Um I am I.

01:00:18.66
sidekqpodcast
I Mean we can go as long as you want and if I need to just kind of strain through and pick some of the best questions I can.

01:00:25.74
Holly Ordway
I Think that would from my perspective that would be good because I'm I'm tired.

01:00:33.14
Alexi Sargeant
Could I ask my question maybe all right? So picking up on some of the the themes that have been going on through this conversation. Um, is this word tokenesque.

01:00:34.50
sidekqpodcast
Sure Yeah, go for it.

01:00:48.95
Alexi Sargeant
That is sometimes used to describe you know a subgenre of fantasy and it really seems to be about fantasy aesthetics, the elves and dwarves and magic rings set up but assuming ah you know assuming that we're all right and Tokeenns Artistic Identity tolkeen.

01:01:06.46
Alexi Sargeant
Tolkienn's kind of essence as a creator runs deeper than what's most easily imitated. What are some actually tolenesque works that you would recommend So I'm I'm you know putting this to my fellow podcasters. What are things that are really tolenesque. Ah, that that we should all be aware of if we're lovers of tolken.

01:01:27.62
Holly Ordway
Well, that's a really really interesting question because I completely agree with you that the surface markers are not the key aspect. Um, it's the underlying ethos I think and the underlying sense of of a deep rich story and. And so really, the first thing that comes to mind as as capturing the sort of worldview would actually be lewis' um, Ransom trilogy. The cosmic trilogy and interestingly tolkin but he wasn't a huge fan of the third one he really.

01:01:54.46
Alexi Sargeant
Oh interesting.

01:02:03.47
Holly Ordway
He loved perolandra and he liked out of the silent planet a lot. Um, and I think that that trilogy I mean it has fantastical elements in it. Um, and it has ah a coherence kind of cosmology and we have it. You know. Has a shared um sort of shared spiritual world because we know that the ldela are actually angels and this is very very tolenesque in the sense that in Middle Earth the the Valla the valar are angels That's what they are Tolen identifies them as such. Um.

01:02:26.48
Alexi Sargeant
Yeah.

01:02:36.12
Alexi Sargeant
Me.

01:02:42.90
Holly Ordway
So I think the the cosmic trilogy is is very tolenesque.

01:02:47.50
Alexi Sargeant
That's great. Yeah, and that's a kind of that's less red than chronicles of Narnia but a really you know, really fascinating cslewis work I'll throw in there as an answer to my own question. Um Connie Willis's time travel novels. She's she's ah she's a british science fiction author with a series of time travel stories and for me, what's tolenesque is There's a subtle but but powerful evocation of providence throughout the novels because you know the mechanics of time travel are sometimes opaque even to the time travelers. But. In reading them, you get the sense that time itself right? like the the continuum has has a sort of providential role right? It lets time travelers through or doesn't let them through in ways that kind of work ultimately and secretly towards kind of redemptive ends. Ah, so ah and you know some of them are very dramatic. Some of them are very funny that there's a lot of different genres Connie Willis explores but that underlying theme makes me feel like she has a sort of you know, Tolkien Tolkienesque Mantle and I would certainly recommend her to folks who are listening to this podcast.

01:03:59.75
Holly Ordway
And it's interesting that you know yeah I've I've recommended something that's usually labeled science fiction Now you've recommend Science fiction and it's very interesting that Tolque himself was quite Blasia about why the lord of the ring was called Science fiction or fantasy. Um, and I would have expected him to be.

01:04:14.90
Alexi Sargeant
Um, he's.

01:04:16.95
Holly Ordway
Very serious about this but he he was really unbothered by it. He he could call it either 1 and he was a great reader of science fiction. He loved it. Um, and he was quite proud of being. Um you know member of the of the usscience fiction writers association. So it's it's interesting that. That tolkienness quality appearing in science fiction maybe allows it to escape the black hole of oh we must have little 3 hree -feed beings and a magic item. No no, no, that's not the point. That's that happened to be in Dulkin story.

01:04:43.27
Alexi Sargeant
Yeah, yeah.

01:04:50.42
Holly Ordway
But really these these big greater themes can be explored in maybe equally well or better in Science fiction.

01:05:00.62
sidekqpodcast
And Miss Katherine

01:05:06.26
Katherine Spitler
I Cut out there for a little bit so catch me up on what question we're on.

01:05:09.84
sidekqpodcast
Ah, we're doing Mr. Alexi's question

01:05:10.80
Alexi Sargeant
Ah I was asking. What's like how assuming we're right that that the essence of Tolkien is more than elves and dwarves and magic rings. The kind of aesthetic you know, associated with him what would be some like.

01:05:15.69
Katherine Spitler
Um, ah.

01:05:23.71
Katherine Spitler
Okay.

01:05:27.96
Alexi Sargeant
Genuine Tolkien -esque works tolenesky in a kind of thematic way that we would recommend to people.

01:05:38.53
Katherine Spitler
Um O That's a great question. Ah oh no I'm on the spot of it. That's a good question. Um tolenesque works.

01:05:44.41
Holly Ordway
It's tough isn't it.

01:05:55.69
Katherine Spitler
Recommend I don't have a good answer right now. Maybe if if you'll let me all I'll think about it and ah I'll get back to. But um, yeah.

01:06:06.61
Holly Ordway
Okay.

01:06:07.73
sidekqpodcast
Yeah, the only thing I can add into this question that's being asked is I mean I know I look to Tolkien as an example for how I run my home game. So I really have gone into deep deep lore implications and world building with ah you know.

01:06:20.16
Alexi Sargeant
That's great.

01:06:27.18
sidekqpodcast
My wife with people that I've ah played with um and and all that sort of kind of stuff.

01:06:33.20
Katherine Spitler
That might be my that might be my example because I've played with you and that's probably the most recent example I can think of this going Beyond Just you know the the trappings and the the wallpaper and the you know the visuals of it. Um, but really digging into these questions of. You know Morality and and you know redemption and the questions of of power and and um, you know faith and it doesn't it doesn't need there to be elves or spaceships or whatever you want it. It's more to the core of these deeper questions. So. Yeah, credit to you kurt you've done a wonderful job with your world and the way we've kind of crafted a story um with like our work game. But yeah.

01:07:14.30
sidekqpodcast
Okay I mean not to not to you know Pat myself too hard on the back on that one. But yeah, yeah, all right? yeah.

01:07:25.94
Katherine Spitler
Um, you should.

01:07:26.11
sidekqpodcast
Well, it sounds like we want to get to maybe 1 last question that we could really sink our our teeth into I hope I've done a good job of covering the intersection of all 3 of these topics in this panel and so I think the only one that I think could merit meet this requirement would be this one. So early d and d tried to side step morality by making a scale of law versus chaos with neutral in the middle ground which eventually ended up perpendicular against the axis of good versus evil.

01:07:45.79
Katherine Spitler
Oh.

01:07:57.77
sidekqpodcast
To create the manichean alignment chart and fueling pop culture debates of who ends up where on the ttrpg version of hollywood squares a quoted 2005 internet forum had Gary Geigax himself declaring that it was perfectly in line for a lawful good paladin. To kill innocent goblin babies because quote all goblins are evil and if I understand correctly even Tolkien wresling wrestled with orcs as we discussed with earlier and rings of power had interesting things to say with a da father this proto orc elf character. So how do you think. The concept of d and d alignment fits with catholicism and Tolkien's perspective and approach to the world of fantasy.

01:08:44.53
Alexi Sargeant
Big big question.

01:08:45.99
sidekqpodcast
Yeah, yeah.

01:08:48.97
Katherine Spitler
At Nick.

01:08:49.20
Holly Ordway
Well I I can sort of jump in and and say I I think it depends on whether you view that alignment chart as descriptive or prescriptive. Um, and I think that makes a big difference and of course the the example you gave from the interview like.

01:08:57.45
Alexi Sargeant
He.

01:09:01.23
Katherine Spitler
A.

01:09:06.35
Holly Ordway
Well the the lawful good palate in killing innocent Goblin babies. Well if they're innocent. It would be an evil act. But then that raises the question. Well we just talked about how there really aren't any Goblin babies and there probably aren't innocent because of the way that he thought of them so that. That's and one of those examples that doesn't actually serve service purpose. Um, but if you think about the if you think about the alignments as being sort of prescriptive like okay, we're going to have. We're going to have people of all of these kinds in the world. Then it becomes very problematic because then it's like well have you been created to be lawful evil like well that that seems rather you know Dumb deterministic. But if you think of it as being descriptive then it's quite helpful because someone who is chaotic evil.

01:09:57.57
Alexi Sargeant
But.

01:09:59.40
Holly Ordway
Is is doing terrible things in a different way than someone was lawful Evil Um, and then I think we probably all met people who are chaotic good. You know? Um, yeah, as like so I think it can be a useful, a really useful way of thinking through kind of the intersections of.

01:10:08.18
Alexi Sargeant
Um.

01:10:17.22
Holly Ordway
Of personality and and moral sort of focus I sort of my beef with it now as a Catholic is the fact that in D and D Lawful lawful good ends up making you feel like you're kind of a square. You know.

01:10:37.24
Katherine Spitler
Um, lawful boring I've heard it referred to.

01:10:40.30
Alexi Sargeant
You know and like Aquinas would say right? Ah, the the law ah needs to accord with with divine law right? There's no, there isn't a sort of generic lawfulness because there's many there's different kinds of law and if human law goes against divine law. It's no It's no law at all right? and there's you know there isn't some cosmic access of lawfulness and and goodness how there is a question of like what do how how much do individual actions and kind of societal laws accord with the. Capital t truth that is god.

01:11:18.30
Holly Ordway
You could take lawfulness and a more neutral way of of saying kind of authoritarianism Authority already is good if it's based on the truth and goodness well lot then you get lawful good.

01:11:25.44
Alexi Sargeant
Um, whom.

01:11:26.72
Katherine Spitler
A.

01:11:32.21
Holly Ordway
But if you have authoritarianism for its own sake. You get totalitarianism which is basically lawful evil.

01:11:38.47
Alexi Sargeant
and and Tolkiens Hoen's pretty alive to that right? because ah you know the the whole depiction of of kingship in the lord. The rings is actually a ah complicated one where you have the you do have the true king aorn but you've got lots of.

01:11:42.26
Katherine Spitler
Um, a.

01:11:53.66
Alexi Sargeant
You know Realms ruled by people who are more or less you know shortsighted or or flawed right? and the question of like what exactly good political Authority looks like is yeah is vexed and you know not not simple in the lord of the rings.

01:12:08.18
Holly Ordway
And 1 of the characteristics of of Andate the orcs in mordor is the extreme regimentation I mean it's it's you certainly see his ah his wartime experience coming out there. This sense of you know the boss is telling us to do these things and we're gonna you know we're gonna.

01:12:13.59
Alexi Sargeant
He's.

01:12:25.73
Holly Ordway
Get our butts kicked. We don't do what the boss says that that's very much that sort of regimentation for its own sake. So he token is not by any means just exalting Authority Qua Authority it has to be grounded in in the true then divine law just said Alexi. But you could argue that if if ever there's a character who's chaotic. Good. It would be Tom Bombadil

01:12:53.70
Katherine Spitler
And I've been interesting kind of jumping off of that exact point, especially in something like lord of the rings is that while okay, clearly the main character is that you know least the habitbbits they're they're good and then you can argue the you know I'm sure people have. And analyzed to the whole fellish of why what would they be but throughout their entire journey they meet people who help them hinder them. But you know mostly help of all across the spectrum and I just found that interesting. Um and especially thinking about. You know, being a catholic and how we perceive you know people we meet and this in how we react to story is this idea that you know god created didn't create us to be all the same. We're not all meant to worship the same think the same create the same. It would be a very boring world and that kind of goes you know. All sorts of questions of free will and and whatnot but the beauty of the diversity that you you could be chaotic good whatever that means in your life or you know you need lawful good as well. You need all types and and that's the beauty of you know the universal church like we are such a diverse beautiful collection of. Flawed you know where we're all sinners. But um, it takes all all of us all kinds and yet we still find you know universal salvation in Jesus Christ and um the church welcomes the diverse you know, ah spread of people that we are um.

01:14:15.39
sidekqpodcast
Oh no, she was saying something real cool then she got cut off ah such a bummer. Okay, um, okay, we'll see if we yes hope. Ah.

01:14:23.58
Holly Ordway
Wouldn't be able to you'll be able to edit that I think to get almost on it all but her last little fragment.

01:14:24.35
Katherine Spitler
So.

01:14:34.87
sidekqpodcast
Okay, so we'll see if she can pop back in because I would hate for anyone to turn into a pumpkin and thank you, you know all for for baron for Barron with me and getting ah you know this all putting this all on you know the second panel which I'm I'm hoping. Ah, okay I think you were saying and the salvation of Jesus Christ and then like you cut off.

01:14:52.67
Holly Ordway
She's better.

01:14:55.00
Katherine Spitler
I cut out again. Hi guys.

01:15:03.00
Katherine Spitler
So yeah, basically making the point of um, just you know this point of the the wonderful diversity that you find within the people that the saints the history like we weren't all just all created be lawful good like there is there. We have gifts. Different and that kind of goes I don't if you want to look at this alignment chart. But um, one other point with that is especially in stories like tolkiens you know or the rings but also playing games like d and d. My favorite moments are those that you're not. When you're allowed to not be locked in to you know what? you assign your character or you meet someone who's you know this and there is an ability if there is an ability to grow beyond that that you can shift you can change. You're not locked into you know that there's a chance for redemption which is a very. You know Christian Catholic thing that no one is beyond um redemption no one is beyond corruption there. There is a fluidity to that. We're not locked into that and I think that is an extremely you know catholic thing that we see in in tolkin's work. But um I think the best. Stories and the best games whatnot have that aspect and my my favorite characters are the ones that have redemption arcs and you no play against type play against what they were assigned. Um, they're the most powerful stories in my opinion.

01:16:23.38
sidekqpodcast
And I think this podcast is done its part to help in that listeners if they remember the episode early season 1 episode on skink nose the lich beekeeper and my guests Leah Murray and I discussed about this lich you know why are they. Why are they a beekeeper now. Why aren't they being like an evil plotting undead wizard and it turns out the wizard had regrets about life and was considering giving up their lichdom ah to find redemption. Um, so that was really cool and then also guest at the podcast coincidentally named father Tom Bombadil ah created a revenant priest character who was undead but served a god who wished to redeem the undead and the deal you know he was a sinful mortal in life. But then like on his head at like a deathbed conversion moment. And then the god was like cool all right, you're my priest now and you're going to go out in the world and you're going to redeem the undead creatures and bring them into rest and peace. But you're going to be the last one in the door so I hope that people listeners of this podcast. You know I don't. Have to like rub it in Everyone's face that I'm a catholic but I you know I help to encourage those ideas of the npcs that we make on this podcast and so I hope um, that people you know, see that and they see that I get that inspiration from Tolkien who himself is catholic and you know my you know.

01:17:45.45
sidekqpodcast
1 of my panelists here has written 2 great awesome books on it which I know you know, maybe we couldn't get quite into the nitty-gritty of the catholicism aspect of it but I would certainly you know recommend ah to articles that alexi has written as well as articles and actual books written by Dr Holly orway as well. So um. So have have we reached the end of the are we going to close out the pub now. We're ready to you know, pay our tabs and and go home and and back to our hearths and and all that good sort of stuff.

01:18:16.93
Alexi Sargeant
It's time. Yeah time for last call.

01:18:17.54
Holly Ordway
I Think so it's it's been. It's been a jolly time and now and now we must wend our way to bed to bed as the hobbits sang.

01:18:28.70
sidekqpodcast
Well I certainly want to give you all kudos and a huge thanks for being on the second ever ah parlays at the platter panel style episode and ah just I just want to give everyone an opportunity to plug whatever you got if you've got websites or socials or books or. Other things you want us to know about and follow and any other ice. So since this will release at Christmas time if there's any other Christmas greetings or well-wishes you wish to impart to the world at large I want to leave that to you now.

01:18:58.66
Holly Ordway
Oh I'll say and we've talked a lot about Tolkien. Um I would encourage listeners to pick up my my newest book tolen's faith the spiritual biography and I know that you know Curt said listeners may or may not be catholics may or not be christians and this biography is written. Um, just as a biography. It's intended to help people learn about Tolkien and what what was important to him what he believed and it's not It's not going to try and twist. Anybody's arm. It's not saying you should become a catholic it's just saying hey this is what Tolkien believed. Um, and so if if you're interested in that aspect of his faith. You can read it and give it to people who are not catholics and they'll learn about what he believed but without being without being pressured about it.

01:19:40.63
Alexi Sargeant
Yeah, folks can follow my work online at alexissargegent.com or follow me on Twitter at alexisargent and if you're specifically interested in my my book saintly creatures. You can get that from word on fire. And if you're interested in my game design work. Ah, follow me at Cloven Pine Games there's a cloveninee games page on itch io where you can buy some of my some of my games including back again from the broken land the extremely tolkienin inspired game of small adventurers sharing stories. And the long walk home from an epic war.

01:20:23.88
Katherine Spitler
Yeah, this is so much fun. Thank you so much for having me so Kurt's been bugging me forever to get my personal artwork online somehow. So I'm working on it. Maybe they'll be in show notes later. Um, most of my work is is graphic design and. Maybe onm a broken record but I have to plug the ah word on fire bookstore because I and my team people I work with um sign a lot of books and there's actually one that I worked on recently that's coming out I believe later later this year. Ah for our asinenophiles out there popcorn with the pope.

01:20:52.83
Alexi Sargeant
Who.

01:20:57.68
Katherine Spitler
It's about the Vatican film list and it's ah I think it'll be a wonderful thing to find anyone to pick up because it's essays on all of these wonderful films and um, yeah, just just a good read I think will be a lot of fun for a lot of people. So yeah, check it out.

01:21:12.50
sidekqpodcast
Cool then I know it's weird because it's like like literally going to be Halloween like tomorrow or something like that. But ah, certainly out there. You know the general feed listening to this certainly want to wish you merry Christmas and happy New Year ah good tidings to all of you and yours.

01:21:20.91
Katherine Spitler
Payment.

01:21:30.10
sidekqpodcast
And ah, you know if you're listening to us as ah as a Patreon listener I hope you had a great Halloween and ah, all souls and all saints day and all that you should pick up auto autumn triduum as well because you get to play nuns who fight evil which is another game that alexi's designed so. That's another good game to pick up for your Christmas tide as well to since you're all with the family and you want to play games and stuff like that. So so Dr Holly Ordway Alexi Sargent and Catherine Spitler thank you so much for being on the panel and ah can't wait to have you back on. Even. Making even more interesting in pcs.

01:22:03.33
Holly Ordway
Like so it has been great.

01:22:03.60
Alexi Sargeant
Thanks for having us.

01:22:08.44
Katherine Spitler
Um, thank you so much. Thank you.