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Hey, you're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the north side of Indianapolis.  My name is Claire Kingsley.  And I'm Dan Breitwieser. Each week, one of us will sit down with the person who gave Sunday's sermon to discuss their message.  Cut for Time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation,  and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday. Thanks for listening.  Yeah, something I enjoy doing. Well, and I think  it's probably a challenge to come back from the men's hike after a week away and then trying to get prepared.  But, your sermon illustration for that certainly was illustrative for that. get there. We did talk about living worthy and that kind of ties in with that as well as we're looking at Ephesians four, um one through six as we  shift. I mean, this is really that  50-50 split, know, Ephesians, as you talked about, know, first half of it is  all about the theology and the second half really then gets into the practicality of it all. So just kind of give us an overview of what your sermon was all about on Sunday. Yeah. So,  yes,  I was on the men's hike. did um give me lots of time for reflection. I was able to have some additional time just with the great scenery reflected on the passage I was going to preaching on. uh But yeah, the  The main point for Paul here in this section one through six  is  to live worthy of your calling.  And when I've always felt not just myself, but you know, I was taught in seminary as went through preaching classes.  If you know, the main point of a passage of scripture is exhortation, then the main point of your sermon should be exhortation. So if what Paul is saying is I urge you to live or to walk worthy of your calling. That should kind of be the gist of what the sermon should be if that's what I'm preaching on. But then the way I broke it down is if we're going to live worthy of our calling, we're going to be walking in step with Jesus. And that's going to be happening in three ways. We're going to walk with purpose. We're going to walk with grace and we're going to walk with unity. It's kind how I broke it up. But yeah, to live worthy of your calling. It's something that sounds really good and be like, yes, I want to do that. And then when you get into the nitty gritty of what that looks like. It's not always as easy as I think we wish it was. Yeah. Right. I think of that too with  like trying to think of like how does that reflect in today's world in a different context? And I think of like being a sports fan  and, um you know, you have and this can also be true, I think, in your family,  you know, maybe live worthy as a Kingsley as it might be.  mean, know, your dad ever, you know, with all the boys said, um You know, you're a Kingsley live up to that. But I think of that with sports as well, where,  you know, you know, the  Colts, you know, win the Super Bowl or the Cubs win the World Series.  And, you know, there's a shared experience. And then there's always some idiots who are like burning down,  you know, looting or  flipping over couches and burning couches. I mean, like they're taking their celebration too far. um And I think of that as, that's not really living worthy of your, of your fandom. You know, it's, is that, like, is that what I'm, I'm trying to get to that. Do you think that's a good real life example of what we're talking about? Oh, slightly. Slightly. All right, I'll take slightly. Yeah. I think the, the idea that Paul is getting to is like, this is who you are, right? He's spent three chapters telling the Ephesians, this is who you are. And just for context, like he's writing to the church in Ephesus, but likely it was the churches in Ephesus, meaning like the Ephesus and the surrounding areas. And that likely this letter was written to this region, but maybe not with one particular city in mind. uh But Ephesus being the kind of capital city of that region kind of became who this letter was to. uh So yeah, as he's writing to all these different churches, they have all these different backgrounds, whether Jew, Gentile, some Greek, some Roman, uh people are coming from, you it was a melting pot, similar to Rome, similar to Athens,  of all these people from different cultures. And he's telling the church, this is who you are. You know, whether you're Jew or Gentile, you are part of the new family of God, you've all been united in Christ.  Now act like it. Like, if this is who you are, this is how you should act. And that's kind of where we've made that turn.  And not to say that the first three chapters  are void of any practical things. It's not purely just a  theology doctrine, but it is heavy on that in the same way that the last several chapters that we're going to be getting into  are not void of theology, but it does kind of lean more towards the practical. Hey, here's how you should treat one another. Here's how the gifts of the spirit work. Here's how you should treat your kids. Here's how you should treat your spouse. Here's how master should treat their servants.  he kind of goes into the very practical nature of, all right, if you're all one in Christ, what does that look like? And this is the, hey, I urge you, remember who you are. Remember where I'm at. I'm in prison still. This is what you need to do. Well, it is Paul after all. So he always throws in a little theology wherever he goes. that's So it's good. But it's good you make that distinction. So one question we had this week was looking into and I thought this was interesting as well, but looking into some of the um Attributes,  know humility gentleness patience  bearing with one another and love this this question specifically goes to the the definition of gentleness  Which you  provided which as I wrote down was  using wisdom to discern injustice  Is that correct? Did I get that right using? Yeah, I will Read the quote straight from the commentary from Lynn Kohick One of several I was commenting, but I think the reason I used it was because it was, I mean, of course he talks about how gentleness is this meekness. It's tied right there with humility.  We find the examples in Jesus,  he describes himself um as gentle and lowly. uh And if gentle is who Jesus is, that's not a bad thing, right? It's not this weakness that maybe, um people were trying to avoid in the Roman world,  but gentleness and humility kind of is counter-cultural in the sense that like this is who the Messiah is, he's gentle and humble  and that should be how  we adopt that attitude as well. So the exact quote is gentleness,  it suggests a person with self-control and the wisdom to discern injustice and then act to rectify it. And then he goes on to describe how  James  in his epistle uses the term  in context of resisting anger because such outbursts do not lead to righteousness. So to be gentle does imply this understanding of self-control that you're not gonna, you know, just go off the rails  anytime anything happens that you don't like.  And then I know injustice can... maybe be a weighted term, sometimes can even be a political term.  I'm  not meaning it in that way. I don't think um Dr. Kohick uh would be  saying that either. That's not the context I get. But I think it's just like being able to discern where there's something wrong and then actually have a spirit uh of humility to say, hey, there's something wrong here, whether in my own life or in someone else's life. And with self-control, with discernment, I'm going to try to make things right. So that's kind of maybe I should have done a little bit better job of explaining what I meant by that. think I kind of just like,  you know, hey, here's something I read this week that was really interesting and then kind of moved on rather quickly. But I probably could have taken a little more time to to explain what I meant by that, because it is that's not normally what you think of when you think of gentleness. Yeah. And so the question, you know, first part of the question was kind of can you flesh that out? So you're thinking about um which he sort of did in terms of what Jesus was described as  and,  you know, other things where I  feel like even with like kind of Paul's  example of being in prison or things like that. I mean, at various times he really displayed that um trying to be wise  in the sense of injustice.  Is there anything else that you think of when you're thinking about it? it's  the... I mean, I think there's a lot of different ways you could... define gentleness, but it's also part of the fruit of the Spirit. um It's something that Paul himself, in multiple letters to multiple different churches, talks about, you know, an attitude that they should take on themselves. um And so, yeah, I think for us, like, we might think of gentleness just like, oh, like, my grandmother was so gentle, she was so sweet, like, she was just so kind and soft-spoken,  and, like, that can be... a form of gentleness, but I think gentleness, like we don't have to wait till we're 75 or 80 to think about what it means to be gentle towards other people. um And so if, you know, uh we're not coddling people, we're not, um you know, trying to  make things, uh we're not trying to talk down to people, be like, oh, you can't handle it, so I'm gonna be super gentle and, you know. That's not  the mindset I think we have, but I think the mindset of,  once again, tied together with humility,  I'm not gonna insist on my own way, I'm not going to self-aggrandize my own opinions,  make myself better than I am, but I'm going to be gentle, uh emulating the Spirit of Christ in how I interact with other people, not just in the church, but even outside of the church, which I think kind of goes to part two of the question. Yes, what I was thinking as you're talking about gentleness, think like the other a lot of times with that um adjective, we think of someone who's very tall, very big, and we might call them a gentle giant. And maybe that's a better, you rather than the gentle grandmother,  gentle giant where someone who really is powerful, really is, you know,  big and can get their own way his own way her own way that like, but they're just, you know, they They're soft-hearted. They don't lean on their strength.  yeah. But if something happens and someone's in trouble, you better believe that they're going to work to  fight against that injustice. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I like that. like that.  Well, so part two of the question is kind of connecting this to, all right, is gentleness, I think countercultural back then and certainly countercultural today as well, do you see this as primarily  being something that would define ah Christians and our faith within the church as we're interacting with each other? Or is this something that uh is something that's more primarily outside of the church? Or uh should this look, uh to walk with gentleness, look different  as we as Christians engage with each other or with the world or both? I guess it wouldn't be neither, but which one is it? Yeah, it's not neither. uh  And I think  the easy, pretty straightforward answer is both. You know, I think, uh it's in John 14, uh somewhere in there,  you know, after Jesus washed his disciples' feet, but before he is betrayed, he talks about a lot of things, talks about the Holy Spirit, the advocate who's gonna come for them.  But he also talks about, you know, they will know you are my disciples by your love for one another, not even just your love for me.  but your love for one another is how people will identify you.  And so I think primarily what Paul is saying is  this is how we should treat one another,  that we should  in the body of Christ, because we're unified in Christ, treat each other with humility and gentleness uh and forbearance  and  the one I forgot, right? All  four of these things and more, right? He has other lists and other letters that are longer. uh but these are the four he uses here. And so that is of our primary concern. That is Paul's primary encouragement, exhortation, eagerness  is this is how you treat one another. But I think as we treat one another with those attributes, yeah, like that's not to say we're exempt from showing that same level of love and kindness and humility towards people outside the church, or even as people  see us love one another with humility, gentleness, patience, and forbearance. Like it should be a marker for us. It should identify us as  set apart, as different, that this is not how the world interacts with one another. And I think I kind of mentioned that one of the application points at the end of my sermon, which is like, if our hope in Christ  and the future we have with him  is gonna look like this,  then the church now should look a little bit like that and that  we should not like you put a bunch of Christians in the room and it shouldn't just look or sound or feel like any other gathering space or workspace in the you know in the United States or around the world like there should be something evident different about how we treat one another how we even speak with one another the words we speak with  how we interact in groups how much we're willing to listen and ask questions and not just be like oh I've got a funny story You know, we're not just trying to put ourselves out there, but we're trying to build others up and seek the interests of others is more important than ourselves. So there should be something different. But I think Paul's primary concern is this is step one, do this for each other. And then kind of step two is people will notice and see that there's something different. Yeah, I think that's good. Yeah. Cause I think our, behavior to others, you know, it should, should reflect our behavior to each other. It shouldn't be this, you know, dramatic.  Um, thing, although obviously there there are some changes that there are some different things you may, um, do as you're interacting with people who do love Jesus and those who don't know him. So I think that's, that's important to think through. All right. Well, we had another question as well, and this is connected to verse six,  um, where God talks about, or, um, we're God. Well, you know, Paul, yeah, through his word, Paul says  one God and father of all, and then it's the last triad, is three prepositional phrases. two pages in our sermon books. Yeah. God and Father who is overall and through all and in all.  And so this question is, would you speak a little bit more about the phrase  in all? um know, Genesis says that all creatures have the breath of life. Is that  the idea that, you know, um God is  in all and those kinds of things?  is the reference here more to maybe believers or maybe just to humans in general, whether you're believers or not. What do you take from that? Yeah, I think it's a great question. And once I saw that question come through on Sunday, I took a little bit of time to read in a little bit more. And I think it's maybe intentionally left vague by Paul, where he is talking to believers. He's talking about believers that, God, We have the same God within each of us. He's sovereign over everything. He's, you know, working through every situation and he's in each of us, right? He's with us.  But I think there is an element to where he is talking about how like God has created and given breath and life to everyone. Even  Paul, when he's in Athens at the Areopagus, you know, he quotes  a uh secular  writer, like in him we live and move and have our being, right? uh And so, but it's something he attributes written secularly about the gods, but it tributes to the one true God to say like, no,  every human being, every animal on this planet has their life and breath given to them by the God who created everything.  So I think it kind of has a multi-layered meaning, almost kind of like what we were similarly just talking about with these other attributes where, yes,  We should hear this and be reminded of the fact that  as believers, as we have made Christ our Lord, he is with us, he is in us,  he's together with us,  we  are his church. But also, there's common graces that God gives to everyone, the good gifts of life and breath and  being able to eat good food and  take in creation and use our...  bodies to do incredible, you know, acrobatic feats and, you know, athletic things and to compete. And  there's so many good graces that God has given the world that are available to everyone, whether or not they have a relationship with him. So,  yes, God is in everything for everyone, but only some have that special relationship with him where, you know, the Holy Spirit has, um you know, inhabited their lives. OK, very good. Very good. Um, all right. Well, let's,  yeah,  it's interesting discussion we've had, and especially as we get into chapter four and go beyond, but,  um, you know, this podcast is titled cut for time.  you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask, all right. So pastor Nathan,  um, what did you have to cut for time as we just talk about this, um, you know, beautiful passage. And I think you talked about it in your sermon too, in terms of,  you know, uh, Verses memorize this is actually some of the first verses I've memorized like later on and um I don't think I realized at the time That the depth of it and you know things like that, but uh just a beautiful passage So what did you have to cut for time?  Yeah I mean, I think there's a lot of things that I would have loved to spend a little more time on I didn't necessarily cut  it but it was like hey I don't have time to write down these paragraphs of a sermon kind of what we even just talked about um maybe further Flushing out this idea of what these attributes really mean.  What other parts of scripture do we see  talked about humility or gentleness or patience or  bearing with one another?  I mentioned it briefly a little bit about the bond of peace and that unique phrase is  not a common phrase.  That that's what we should be eager to maintain, the spirit of unity and the bond of peace. um briefly mention that just to kind of explain it, but I didn't go into it a whole lot. But I think the one main thing that maybe it wasn't necessarily cut for time, but cut for a better illustration uh is that uh I ended up kind of talking about the men's hike. I felt like it was  very applicable. There was more ways I could have drawn more connections almost with every point.  what is it? Like there are plenty of examples of humility. uh on the men's hike where  someone's out of water and we're not close to a water source, so you're asking others for water and they're sharing. Or um someone uh forgot to put their dinner for Thursday night in their backpack and left it in the car, and so they didn't have the dinner, but other people were sharing. So there's all these connection points I could have made to the men's hike that I didn't because of time.  But I think the one main illustration, which... I think it's kind of a cool thing. didn't live it, but in 18, not 18, 19 something, Apollo 13 mission that it was supposed to be like the third landing on the moon. This is the Houston, have a problem story that after, you know, a few hours, an oxygen tank exploded and it took the collective brain power and focus and unity of all these different people. to do the right thing at the right time to maintain unity that actually got the astronauts to land safely, you know, and that they had to  basically re-enter the atmosphere in the lunar module, which was meant for two people, but there were four people. They had to  create an air filter out of like cardboard and a sock or something like that, but it was able to work well enough that it got them back safely. And so it's really kind of this really cool picture of Everyone had to do their part. Everyone had unique jobs  and unique  gifts of what they were doing, but they couldn't have done it if anyone just decided to throw up their hands back up. It's worthless or it's, you know, it's hopeless, but they stuck to it. But also I feel like that also fits in pretty well with the next passage where he's talking about, where Paul goes to talk about the different gifts we've all received. So  I did not end up talking about the Apollo 13 mission. ah I went with talking about the men's hike instead.  Um, but yeah,  I could go on and on, hopefully that's enough examples where, if we can get an entire group of people  to do,  you know, and you see this in, you know, startups or in other, know, um, in the business world or sometimes sports teams or things like that, where, you know, the entire team is practicing voluntarily throughout the summer to,  know, so they're ready to go and integrate it and things like that. mean, that just. pays dividends and we are on team Jesus. And so it'd be good to be united around that  as well. So, okay, interesting, very interesting. I like that.  Well, and the last thing just wanted to finish off with, think  I really liked how you gave us some food for thought at the very end.  then self-reflection, if we're talking about,  what are you eager for? ah And for Paul, he talked about  eager to maintain the unity of the spirit. um What?  What would you like to say as we wrap up here about that and trying to get people to, yeah, just reflect on themselves and give themselves uh a sort of a hard checkup with the eagerness and how that plays out in their priorities, their times, their treasure.  What  would you want to say about that? Well, kind of going back to this theme of being counter-cultural, right? For Paul, um what he's encouraging and urging the Ephesian believers to do was different than how the rest of the world lived. And so I think similarly, like we should think about how these attributes, how we're living for Jesus is different than maybe how the world operates. And if you think about right now, we see a lot of eagerness in the world, but it's eagerness to be heard, eagerness to,  you know, for the other person to understand who you, you know, who you are. uh Eagerness for self-identification and I get to determine who I am and what I do and no one else gets to tell me um Eagerness to be right uh Eagerness to  you know find the thing in this world that will make you happy uh There doesn't seem to be in the world today specifically in politics, but even beyond politics an Eagerness for unity Like they're really across the board. It's, hey, I'm going to do my thing. You do your thing. And we'll just kind of almost live in this quasi state of acceptance  or tolerance, but not really digging down to find the things that unite us. And so I think even as we think about the church, right, I didn't go into specifics, but I think at faith church, even you can find a lot of different things that set us apart as different, right? Which  I mean, the one that comes to mind the most is what music style do you prefer? Right? We have two different music styles for two different services here. ah We have lots of different preachers. ah Who's your favorite preacher? You know, you could identify yourself like, oh, this is my favorite preacher. This is my preferred style of music.  This is my preferred worship leader.  This is my preferred grow class teacher.  This is my preferred  way of serving uh at Faith Church. ah Right?  go through all the ways that we might have preferences or we might identify differently, whether generationally or whatever at faith church, but how much of our energy is poured into  letting people know what our preferences are and how much of our energy is poured into like giving deference to and giving preference to others and seeking to maintain that unity and being eager for that. It doesn't necessarily mean laying down and letting people  stampede you or that we're just gonna be a bunch of people who just roll over. But I think  there is always eagerness  in a lot of people. I just don't always know if it's towards the right ends, if that makes sense. Yeah, that's a great way to think through that and a great way to wrap up. Although I have to say, Pastor Nathan, mean, ever the professional, there is a fly going around your office. The entire time. The entire time. And it's like you're the old radio vet who just doesn't even flinch, you know, when it's all over the air. I've was most hidden entertainment for me in this. Yeah, for you. No one else could see it. This isn't a video podcast, so no one will be able to see it. But this fly has landed on the mic, landed on my face, landed on my screen everywhere. It's been all over this entire recording. um But I have had seven years  of  teaching middle schoolers and high schoolers who sometimes can be as impulsive  as flies in terms of what they say or do  while teaching.  so, you know, you just kind of got to got to deal with it. So. All right. Well, Pastor, I appreciate  your time ah and your words  and encouraging us all to think through, you know, how we can live worthy.  and um be eager for the right things and looking forward to where this  passage goes next week. Yeah, thanks Dan.  Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time.  If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following Sunday's sermon,  you can email them to podcast at faithchurchindie.com  or  text them into our faith church texting number. and we'll do our best to cover them in next week's episode.  If this conversation blessed you in any way,  we encourage you to share it with others.  We'll be back again next week.