Hey. You're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the North Side Of Indianapolis. My name is Claire Kingsley. And I'm Dan Breitwieser. Each week, one of us will sit down with the person who gave Sunday's sermon to discuss their message.

Cut for Time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation, and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday. Thanks for listening. Well, welcome back to Cut for Time, Pastor Jeff. This is week number two of, the renewed sermon series, as we walk through Ephesians. And and this week, we looked at Ephesians one, chapter one verses three through 14.

And, this is just one of those long theologically dense, rich passages. So I'm sure it was a very easy sermon to preach. Right? And I know that no no big deal to ask. Saint Jack.

Very straightforward. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's just it's exactly like the stuff we're in in Acts. Then we sailed to Cyprus, and then we, you know, then a storm came up.

And, you know, this is just like I I think I mentioned a little on Sunday. I mean, the scope of it is just, you know, eternity past to eternity future and God's eternal plans. And, yeah, there and there's just so much rich, rich language, and theological concepts being addressed here in this passage that, as I said, we could easily spend a month or more just in this section. But, you know, we just spent two years in act, so I am trying to keep us moving along. I like that.

But, yeah, very it it's it's a little intimidating, honestly, to preach a passage like this. Kind of kind of, as I said, felt a little like, you know, first year piano student sitting down on a Steinway in Carnegie Hall to play Chopin, and, how in the world am I there's no way I can do justice to this. Great. Well, this you know, you, yeah, you had the idea just to you started out with, you know, are we worried that someday God's love will run out like an insurance policy and we gave some reasons behind, I think, why the answer you would say is absolutely not. So let's kinda walk through what was your sermon all about.

Yeah. That and and also just, the whole general idea. I mean, the the the reality of this world and how we experience ourselves and life and, you know, and all the brokenness around us. Like, is God doing anything? Is it all gonna turn out?

Are we all on our own? What hope and security do we have for ourselves and for this world and for relationships and all of it? Yeah. It is a broken world, but we do have hope, and that's the that's the really good news. So Yes.

Yeah. So just give a summary kind of what your your turn was, on Sunday. Yeah. So, as we said, it's this very sweeping passage, that talks about the father's love, that that is the the character of God that has motivated him and kind of carries through this whole passage of, having purposed in his mind an eternity past to save to himself a people through the work of Jesus who would be his possession, belonging to him, secured to him by the work of the spirit, and how that gives us confidence that God does know what we need. He knows what we most fundamentally need, our biggest problem, and he knows everything about us and and loves us anyway.

And and in that love, he has chosen to forgive us, to redeem us, to to make us his own through the work of his son, that also gives us confidence that God knows the right way to bring about what we need, that that it's a a work of his grace. It's and thank thank the Lord that it's not because of something that God would see in us that is desirable or worthy, of the, you know, all that he's poured out on us, that it's because of what Jesus has done, because we're not worthy and we can't accomplish it. And it's because of his grace that the father has simply chosen to set his love on us. And that gives us confidence as well that the father knows the right time to bring about all his good purposes and plans that he has for us, that what's going on in our lives and in the world is not random, chaotic, or pointless, that the father actually is in charge and and directing all things towards this plan to sum up, to reconcile, to gather up, all things and redeem things in Christ for his glory for all eternity, and and that we're in the process of heading in that direction, and that the father is in fact orchestrating and directing all things in our lives and in the world towards that purpose as hard as it is to believe based on what we see about ourselves and what we see going on in the world around us and how broken and incomplete things, things are.

That the father actually knows the right time and the right way to bring about his good purposes for us in his love. Yeah. It's, I yeah. It's always struck by just the idea that, you know, he's since he knows everything, he's able to, choose the right, you know, the right like, he he has all the information, and we just see if he has a limited, vantage point. And so, I think I've talked about this before on this, podcast even just you know, if we had all the information he has, we would choose the exact same thing for our lives that he's chosen for us, because, you know, we just we don't have the full picture.

You know, it's, we we we don't know. And and so it's really frustrating at times because we we have an exaggerated view of our own ability of of, directing our paths and and being wise in our own eyes, that is, very flawed. I love the way you put that, Dan, that, if we had all the information that god has and we had all the wisdom and power that the father has, we would choose the same things that he has chosen for us. And that's that's just it's really profound. It's it's really important for us to hold on to.

You know, another another way I've heard it expressed is where nobody will get to heaven and be able to say to god, like, oh, you did it you did wrong. You you were unfair to me. You you didn't do the right thing, in my life or in the world. Right? Like, yes.

When we put it that way, right, it's it's almost, like, laughably crazy to think that. Right? Like, we're going to stand before the god of all wisdom and knowledge and all holiness and and all goodness and be able to say, no. No. That you you didn't get it right, god.

No. We're just gonna be able to say, praise to you, Jesus, for all that you did, and and how it all has worked out for our ultimate good and for your glory. Yeah. And that's And that's Yeah. Part of what Paul's getting on here in this passage to to encourage us.

Yeah. And, yeah, it comes from a, you know, father of a son with a genetic disease, but that's, you know, the that's what you're you know? So for those that are out there that are, you know, their children have other issues, and adult children maybe are, you know, straying from the Lord or, divorce or, you know, difficulty conceiving or maybe they've lost a baby or things like that. I mean, that's that's the that's great hope. And I like the way, I like the way someone has put it.

The Bible does not teach us or encourage us to say that all things are good. The Bible does tell us that God is working for the good in all things. And and that's helpful to remember too that, again, as, you know, our choices matter, our decisions matter, that we're we have moral agency in this world and and the ability to both do amazing good and horrible evil. And God does not simply tell us to say, well, you know, all those it's all good and there's a there's a silver lining, you know, to every cloud. That's, you know, it's kinda pop psychology.

They're no. They're genuinely evil, horrible, just miserably wicked, destructive things in this world. And God does not tell us to say, oh, you know, it's it's all good. He does say that he is good in the middle of it, and that he is actually working for good in the middle of the evil and the brokenness and the the disease and all the ruin that has come into this world. Yeah.

And there's a huge difference. And I think, unfortunately, there are a lot of Christians out there who don't understand the difference. And to those that are grieving and are hurting, that's the that's the way, oh, it's it's gonna be good. It's like, thanks, but I I don't know that you have the right perspective. That isn't the right time.

This is the time to mourn and, you know, the Yeah. Yeah. So just a just a side note, that's out there. Yeah. Passage of time what what are the things you cut?

I mean, obviously I mean, you could probably summarize this entire passage in about twenty five minutes, so I I should have nothing more to say. Right? How how how long do we have? It yeah. One of the things that I encouraged, and that I'm trying to follow-up on this week and I encourage us to do is is to take maybe a couple different translations and read through this passage because they'll bring out different embassies, like, where they make line breaks or what phrases they connect to one another.

And and or just go through this with your favorite passage and just slow down at each of these phrases that that Paul pulls out. Blessed in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places. Just man, that would be great to just, right, like, sit in that and reflect on that. Chosen in him before the foundation of the world. Wow.

Like, what a what a what a mind expanding concept. What a what a soul broadening thought that is. To be holy and blameless before him. In love, he predestined us. I so so there's a lot there.

Yeah, a couple of things more specifically. I I touched on it just a little bit, I think, at second hour. There's the commentators disagree on on how intentional we're meant to see this, but there is clearly a a trinitarian structure or framework to this passage that, the the father has purposed in his mind this plan to redeem a people for himself through the work of the son, who, who has purchased us by redemption through his blood and has made possible the forgiveness of our trespasses, has become the guarantee of our inheritance and and our adoption as sons. And and we are then also sealed with the promised holy spirit, the guarantee of our inheritance. So there's this beautiful trinitarian picture here of the father purposing and ordaining our salvation and and reconciliation, the son accomplishing the work of salvation and and making, a rescue and redemption possible through his incarnation and his sacrificial death, and and the reality of that being brought into our lives and in this world by the work of the spirit who lives in us and and is the seal and the promise and the guarantee of that work.

And it's just this a beautiful picture of father, son, spirit, the three persons in one God working in, of course, in perfect unity. But, I mean, that's who God is. Right? Like, the the the spirit is never going to be working against the the will or the work of the father, the son. The son is always working according to the father's goodwill and and sending out the spirit with the father into our hearts and lives.

And so it's just, it's it's clearly there in the passage, and it's not like there's a verse that you point to, but but the whole as you just sit in this and reflect on this passage, you just think how much more secure and confident could we be? Not just in what Paul is explicitly stating here, but but but the structure reinforcing that the Trinitarian God, father, son, and spirit are all working together in unity for this great purpose that God has intended for us and for creation in, salvation and redemption and and restoration. That that it's, it's just it's it's amazing and and rich and and, mind blowing in the best kind of way. Right? That, if if we doubt, if we wonder, if, you know, if we if we wrestle with anxiety, we're going back to this passage and reminding ourselves not even just to the specific things that God has done, but that it's the work of the father, son, and spirit united together to accomplish these purposes and fulfill all his promises.

That's just wow. Right? And I think that's, where, in this book of Ephesians, and in fact, in the in this very next section, we're going to be looking at Paul just this passage itself is just an extended kind of almost hymn of praise that is now going to lead into this next section that is objectively, like, literally structured as a prayer for us. Like, Paul just soaks in the reality of of all that God is and all that he's done for us, and and the natural response to that is just praise and prayer and worship. And I think that's what he intends for us to to take from this too.

Well, I know you talk about well, there's not one verse to point to, but you did mention this is all one one big sentence from Paul. Yes. So it it's a, you know, it's a, you know, one of those, we don't speak like that anymore. Right. Right.

You know, it's, you know, 11 verses worth of words, but that's, that it is really one complete thought that that Paul Yeah. Yeah. You've kinda pointed out the, and I'm gonna kinda ask you about this, you know, the the wording at the very end in in verse 14. Yeah. As we talk about the the promise of the the promised holy spirit, the ESV, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory.

And, you know, when you, you know, it's I I'm curious your thoughts. You said this may not be the best translation of that phrase Yeah. Because that sort of hints at a different idea that is found through much of scripture. So you got a little bit of a beef to pick with the ESV in this case. No.

Yeah. It's it's it's certainly a legitimate translation of the Greek there, you know, obviously, and and and we should know that. But, you know, if you look at other translations like the NIV, for example, that that that middle phrase in verse 14, that the until we acquire possession of it in the ESV, there there's even a footnote there Martin is saying, or until god redeems his possession. So the ultimate outcome is going to be, the the reconciliation, the restoration of, you know, our inheriting all the promises that god has intended for us and god redeeming us finally and ultimately. But I think linguistically and theologically in the flow of this passage, it it may make more sense to to render it along the lines of what the NIV says, the the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are god's possession.

So however you render it, I mean, both those things are true, but but I think that the the emphasis on, our being God's possession who will be redeemed maybe flows a little bit better with with Paul's thought here rather than an inheritance that we are going to acquire possession of, which which is true. And and if, you know, that's certainly, you know, theologically accurate in terms of the whole thrust of the New Testament. But the emphasis here so much in this passage is on the initiative and the work of the father, the son, and the spirit that the, you know, the the the shift towards us acquiring possession of our inheritance at the at the very end feels a little, out of line of the of this whole flow of the initiative and the purpose and the choosing and the work of God the father, son, and spirit. That's what's clearly what Paul is pointing us towards. So I think the, the emphasis on, the spirit being the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession.

That that, again, it's emphasizing that we are God's possession who are going to be redeemed and and, you know, taken home to him and gathered up to him finally. I I it just seems like that maybe fits the flow, a little bit better, of the whole passage. And I think it also goes to that idea because I think you could read it and think, oh, it's it's kinda possible that god's love could run out. You know, that I that inheritance you know, sometimes inherited them. Those wheels get changed, then we lose our inheritance or, you know, things like that.

I mean, there's different context that people might bring to that, and so that, it's all true. I mean, there is that that there's also a sense throughout scripture of the immediacy of salvation, and that's not something that is some distant I mean, yes, there is truth that at some point, we are going to, you know, gain possession of heaven, but at the same time Yes. You know, it's heaven brought to earth now. It's not you know, salvation is Right. Right.

Here we're redeemed. Like, there's no going back. Yes. I yeah. That's really good.

That that's another, another that's another great, evidence or, you know, thought observation that that I think underscores what I was trying to get at earlier too that, how it it and I think it just fits with the richness and the security that Paul is wanting us to experience to to to lean more towards that, the phrasing that talks about us being God's possession. That we have very definitely absolutely been forgiven, rescued, adopted, and and that we are we belong to the father because we are in Christ. And and so in a sense, you know, it that makes me think of, you know, where where Paul is quoting, one of the Psalms in the New Testament and applying it to Christ saying, on behalf of the Messiah, here I am and the children you have given me. That that we are the children of God. You know, and again, may there's there's so many great rabbit trails we could run down, you know, that though Christ had no physical offspring, yet we are his children, which is, again, just kind of amazing.

Right? And and so Paul is taking this language of, the the Messiah and the and the here I am and the children you have given me and applying it to Christ to say we are the literally the adopted children of God through Christ. We are his possession. We are his inheritance in in that sense, which I, again, I think fits really well with the the direction that Paul is going in this passage that God in some mysterious way has chose us before he even created the world in in love to be his adopted sons and daughters, to be holy and blameless in his sight through the work of Christ and the end up guaranteed by the the seal and the promise of the holy spirit on us that we really are his, and and that Paul just wants us to know that to the to the depth of our being. That would be the the the hope and the confidence that we have in in all the doubts and insecurities and questions and anxieties we have about ourselves and, again, about this world and what's going on.

And it's like Paul was no. No. You are Christ's own. And that is just so beautifully reassuring and something we just need to hear and and live in and be reminded of. Yeah.

You know, Jen and I were looking to adopt, several years ago, and and the things didn't work with that, but it it definitely gave us a gave me a a fresh perspective of what that word adoption meant as we were talking you know, as we're putting our profile out there, as we're doing all these things, you know, and thinking through how would we you know, and, you know, showing photos and what our family is all about and then just inviting someone to, you know, hopefully join us in that. What what does this word mean? Predestined. Man. What's what you know, there's there's a lot of people might have some problems with that word.

Yeah. That's amazing. You know, in in Yeah. Five, he predestined us for adoption. And and in '11, we have obtained an inheritance having been predestined according to his purpose.

So Yeah. Alright, pastor Jeff. So did I have a choice? What's this free will thing? How does this all work?

Yeah. What would your response be? And I know, you know, we could go on a couple hours of rabbit trails. Yeah. But just kinda, what would your response be to that, and what's a healthy Christian perspective on, how this concept works?

Yeah. So so first of all, I I think one of the things that that I wanna underscore is, some some really helpful, good advice going back to seminary and preaching, and that is let the text preach its own message. And and don't feel like you have to preach everything there is to say about a specific doctrine or topic just because this verse mentions something that speaks into it. Right? Like, so I we wanna let the passage speak for itself, and, yeah, we hold it in tension and in context of, you know, all the other things that we know are true scripturally.

But Paul's not intending to say everything there is to say here, right, about free will and choice and predestination and, you know, election and all that. So let's let Paul speak here, and and we can also, you know, put that next to other things that are are emphasized in scripture, which I tried to do a little on Sunday. But, you know, verse four, he chose us in him before the foundation of the world. He predestined us, and the word means pretty much what we understand it to mean in English. Right?

It it just means, as Paul is saying, before the foundation of the world, in in some way, God chose us who belong to Christ to belong to Christ. I I think yeah. There's there's a couple of things that that that we struggle with here. One is, just the the topic in general because it feels like it sort of rubs us the wrong way as Americans and individualistic people. It, it makes us uncomfortable.

And, yeah, if if it suggests to us that somehow we're robots or we have no choice, that understandably makes us uncomfortable. Part of what I was, trying to bring out on Sunday is that this is, what, this is actually good news. This this is better news than we think it is because we don't want our being in Christ to be the result of something praiseworthy or worthwhile or admirable in us. Because if it is, those things can change. Those things are variable, and and then it would naturally either lead us to become proud that I've been chosen, but because I had something to contribute to it, because I did something worthwhile, or it could lead us to become, you know, introspective and anxious and nervous.

Like, well, yeah. I mean, maybe God chose me, but what if that changes? And what if I don't measure up? Like, you know, he chose me because I was intelligent enough or faithful enough or good enough, but what if a year from now or ten years from now, that's not true anymore? Could he unchoose me?

The the grounding of our security in God's intention in eternity past to call and bring to himself a people simply by his own love is actually a security for us. And I and I think we struggle with it as well because it raises questions for us about evangelism and and about outreach and, how do I know if the these people, like my neighbors, my coworkers, my family members, I don't know if they're you know, God chose them or not, and Paul's not really addressing that in this passage. So we can answer that question from other passages. And and even the idea of, you know, free will versus predestination, I I mean, we can answer that from a lot of other passages too. At the same time, Jesus says, come to me.

Come to me. Like, he doesn't he doesn't say come to me, you know, if you think that you might be chosen or predestined or the elect. He's he's giving an offer. All you who labor and are heavy laden, come to me, and I will give you rest for your souls. When when Peter or James or John or, you know, any of the Paul, any of the people that we have records of in the New Testament, whenever we hear them sharing the gospel, they're they're sharing it freely.

They're they're they're they're saying today, if you hear his voice, don't harden your hearts. They're they're not restricting the offer and the call to some subset because, fundamentally, this is not about evangelism and and about outreach and about sharing the gospel. It's about reassuring us that if we have come to Christ, that thank God our making it to the end is not dependent on us. It's not about whether or not I am gonna continue to be faithful. Our salvation is so secure, Paul wants us to understand, because it's grounded in a in a choice of the father before we were ever even created to simply set his love on us because he is love, because that is his fundamental character, because he is faithful.

And thank God it isn't about my faithfulness, but it's about the faithfulness and the obedience of Jesus and the faithfulness of the father to fulfill his promises and the faithfulness of the spirit who is the deposit and the and the seal guaranteeing our inheritance. Thank God that the guarantee is not my obedience, my holiness, my perfection, my faithfulness. I I want it to be grounded in the father's choosing me before I had ever done anything praiseworthy or admirable or deserving of, you know, the the father's approval. It it's still it's just it's also just hard for us to wrap our heads around because we're finite beings. Right?

Like like you were saying earlier, Dan. Right? Like, we're gonna get to heaven, and none of us are going to say, you know, god, I'm not really sure you did the right thing in that case. Right? Like, it it feels that way.

It looks that way maybe from our perspective right now because we don't have all the knowledge that god has. We don't have the infinite wisdom that god has, and we don't have the infinite perspective that god has. But I do think there there's a hope that that, when we are in heaven eternally that, Paul writes, in first Corinthians, now we see in part, then we will understand. Now we why don't we see through, like, through a mirror, through a glass darkly, then we will see. Now we will know as we are known.

And and I think there's a hope in in in that in those verses that we are going to be able to understand better on the other side of this life. That that when we are in the presence of God, the the fears and the doubts and the questions that we have now about how in the war that this makes no sense. Even the questions like, how does god's control of all things and our actually making choices, how does that fit together? And it's a struggle for us to make sense of that, this side of seeing and understanding in part. And Paul is asking us to trust and believe that that it does make sense, it does fit together, and part of our struggle with it is just the fact that we're finite and we're limited, and and we have incomplete information and incomplete wisdom and understanding.

It will ultimately all be resolved, and and it will all make sense. And on the other side of this life and eternity, eternity, I believe we actually will, in a great measure, be able to look back and say, oh, oh, god. You you were you were in charge of that thing even in and you were in charge in the middle of my choosing and acting in a way that I was both free to choose and you were working out your sovereign will and controlling all things and directing it all according to your purposes in in ways that we struggle to make sense of now, but I think we will be able to make sense of, in eternity. And and Paul is asking us to trust and and believe and to walk by faith that it does all actually fit together, and that we are called to to choose, we are called to obey Christ, and and we our choices actually matter and make a difference. And at the same time, God is in control, and he is sovereign, and he is ordaining and directing all things according to his good purposes.

And and we get in trouble if we fall off the road into a ditch on either side, and, you know, sort of make one, you know, rule over the other one. Right? Like, one is clearly more, you know, has the has the, you know, the hold of the it's sort of like reins on a horse. Right? Like, you you keep them both together, and and you need both of them.

And then, you know, if you just, you know, you're pulling on one stronger than the other, you're gonna end up going into the ditch. And and and we have to hold both of those things together so that we don't end up, often some weird, unbalanced, you know, ultimately unbiblical, you know, some sort of Pitting pitting doctrines against each other somehow. And I and I think God is calling us to both of those things are in scripture. Our free will and choice and God's sovereign election and and predestination and control and sovereignty, and and we have to hold both of those together, and and trust that God is able to sort out all that tension and that he does sort it all out, and it does all make sense. Yeah.

I think one thing too that you sorta hinted at too that I would emphasize with that is we're also Americans living in 2025. You know, there's something to be said for our biases that we bring us because we live in a country that promises, you know, free you know, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And we have our free like, there's there's, there is a cultural perspective that we bring to it that other cultures and other times and other places it didn't have any issue with it, or they didn't think about it because they didn't have that, you know, again, that that cultural understanding Right. They bring to this, theological, conversation. And Yeah.

That that I mean, that's a great reminder too, Dan. Right? Like, we gotta remember we're entering into a world and a worldview, in, you know, in the in the first century where there were literal lords. Right? Like, small l lords, and and the lord is in charge, and and you fall down on your knees, and that person commands.

And, you know, their the commands have effect. And that's just so far from our frame of reference. And, and and the point is not to say that, you know, that's the right way to do things, but or or the way society should be structured at all. But just to acknowledge that, that that language and that framework and that cultural reference, is built into some of the the perspective here. And, that that God is was is able to communicate something meaningful and that maybe we struggle to see and experience that in some ways.

Yeah. Just because of what we bring to reading scripture in terms of what we just sort of assume to be the way things are, and and is not, you know, we yeah. We don't recognize as much how much we are a part of our culture and how much how much our biblical interpretation and our theology is shaped by the cultural framework that we live in, which is true for everyone. Right? There there's no At all times, all places.

Right. Yeah. Right. There there's no sort of, like, biblical worldview or framework that some people in some past time lived in. Like, all of us are products of our culture and our time.

And yeah. So the best thing we could do is to be aware of that and to be aware of what what I'm bringing to that process of, reading God's word and how I hear things, in in ways that, yeah, are are maybe different from the way the first readers. Like, they wouldn't have struggled with this idea of God's sovereignty, God's rule, God's lordship. They they might have struggled with some other things. But, yeah.

So we just we own that, and and we say, okay. I, yeah, I I need to be, a little self not self critical in a healthy way. Right? Like, self aware. Yeah.

Maybe the biases that I'm bringing to this. Pastor Jeff, is there anything else you'd like to, share before we, wrap this up? Just the encouragement is I mean, mark this passage, sit in it, come back to it. Just it's it's one that will pay amazing dividends as we just come back to it even from time to time, and invite God to, help us listen and hear and reflect and think about the the amazing things that he's that he's talking about here, through this through Paul and through this passage about who he is and what he's done for us. Yeah.

I think it's a that was a wonderful action step, and I think just, you know, asking the Holy Spirit who is our deposit to, you know, shed light on on the the aspects that each person needs to individually, reflect on and and meditate on. I think that was a a good call. So pastor Jeff, as always a pleasure, and, we'll, see it won't be you next week, but we'll be back next week and looking forward to that discussion. Yeah. Me too.

Alright. Thanks, Stephanie. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time. If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following Sunday's sermon, you can email them to podcast@faithchurchindy.com. Or text them in to our Faith Church texting number, and we'll do our best to cover them in next week's episode.

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