:
Hey, you're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the north side of Indianapolis.  My name is Claire Kingsley.  And I'm Dan Breitwieser. Each week, one of us will sit down with the person who gave Sunday's sermon to discuss their message.  Cut for Time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation,  and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday. Thanks for listening. Jeff, how's it going? I'll have to confess that I figured it was some kind of a sports reference, but I didn't totally get it. No big deal. Third string Ohio State quarterback who led Ohio State to the national championship in 2014. So third string. That's that's the connection. Yeah, you're not you're not third string, Nathan. We're in this role in this role. I'm OK. I'm the interviewer this time anyway, so. Well, I'm glad to be doing it with you. Yeah. Yeah. So, Jeff, Cut For Time is an opportunity where the preaching pastor gets to share a little bit about the behind the scenes of the sermon on Sunday. But before we kind of get into the behind the scenes and what you had to cut or even some questions we've gotten in, would you just give us a brief recap of the passage you preaching on, Ephesians 4, 7 through 16, right? Yep.  and just give us a little recap of what you preached on on Sunday. Yeah. So Ephesians, this passage in Ephesians four,  remember we've made this kind of turn as is common in Paul's letter from typically the first half is kind of uh big theology, who Christ is, what he's done, who we are in him. And then the second half of the letter is typically, so how do we live that out and what difference does that make?  So this is the section we're into now. We've made that turn and Paul is now going to try and help us put into practice. uh We saw last week, uh Nathan, when you preached about  the unity that we have in Christ and all that we share in common. So Christ has torn down the dividing walls and he's made us one. So now Paul is uh expanding on that a little. What does that unity look like? And  how does God actually grow us together as a community of people that reflect who Jesus is and the difference he's made in our lives? And so Paul has this big picture of uh Christ gifting the church in all kinds of ways,  starting with uh some he calls kind of particularly gifted people or offices. And I think we'll talk a little bit about that.  Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers uh who  are called specifically to equip the body to build us up, to build everyone up so that we're  all  using the gifts that God has given us. to reflect uh all that Jesus has done and all he's called us to be. And so we talked a little bit about what God has given us. He's given spiritual gifts. ah How has he given it? He's given it through these ah particular kinds  of uh leaders whose job  is actually not  to do everything, but to equip the body to do everything that it's called to do. And the reason he's given it, the why is, that the church would be a demonstration  of this unique, uh how else do you say it? Like a unique community that is like nothing else in the world, where all the members are looking out for one another and building each other up in love so that we're all growing together  into a unity of our  understanding and living out of the gospel.  ah in ways that is pointing towards the glory and the beauty of Jesus and his power to change us. that's...  And kind of the big takeaway we were heading for was  just the challenge, invitation, recognition Paul gives that you, that everyone, is God's plan to build the church, to grow the church,  both to grow internally and to grow in terms of reaching out into the community and into the world. So it's this...  It's kind of, again, this sort of amazing big picture, but Paul brings it down to kind of a practical level to point out like you have a role to play. You're a part of God's plan to grow the church and you have something important to contribute. Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful picture of  unity in community.  When the body of Christ is functioning the way it should, know, Christ is the means. He is how we have this unity. He is how the lighting wall of hostility has been broken down. But as he says there in verse 16, um when each part is working properly, Christ makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.  That we do have individual roles to play  in the unity uh of  the body of Christ, but it's not us making unity. Kind of even going back to what we were talking about. two weeks ago in the passage I preach on, we don't create it, but we're trying to maintain what has been given us through the Holy Spirit. Yeah, yeah, it's  amazing, it's encouraging, it's kind of exciting. uh Yeah, it's  this sort of interesting mix of again, kind of this big sweeping theology, but down to a very practical individual level. Like, oh,  I'm...  a member, I'm a part of the body of Christ. And that means there's something that I'm supposed to be doing. And if I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing, like a body, then the parts not working properly and the body's not healthy. So  it's both,  I mean, challenging in a good way, I think, right? Like, oh, I matter.  And it matters whether I'm here and if I'm investing in contributing.  And for many of us who have been Christians for long times and probably whether you've been at the same church for 50 years or been around the block and been to a lot of different churches, think we've all probably experienced it sometimes or another when you really see and feel and experience the body working together in unity and you can feel the spirit at work through Jesus. And  then there's times where maybe that doesn't always feel true where, you know, there's uh just other questions or gossip or whatever.  it can,  whether it's  a  time of 50 years ago or something, maybe we're even wrestling with now, it can  bring about  some difficult questions. But Paul was encouraging us to all do some  level of soul searching as we try to reflect on what we've been called to in Christ. So, Jeff, thanks for giving us a recap. uh Our first question comes to us,  regards specifically a reference that Paul makes to an Old Testament Psalm in verse 8. And I think as we read the passage, if you were to skip  as you read it, verses 8, 9, and 10, it flows very smoothly, right? Verse 7, but grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. If you skip those next three verses in verse 11, and he gave the apostles, the prophet, the evangelists, the shepherds, and teachers to equip the saints, blah, blah, blah, blah. It makes very sense, but weirdly in the middle, he's talking about this quote from Psalm, is it 96, Psalm 96? Psalm 68. Yeah, sorry. Totally got that. Psalm 68. Therefore it says when he ascended on high, he led a host of captives and he gave gifts to men. And then he goes on to explain what he means. So could you just give us a little more insight? You probably didn't have time to really fully unpack it on Sunday. What is Paul doing here with this reference from Psalm 68? Help us understand it a little bit. Well, first of all, yeah, we'll get to that in a second. But just I mean, two problems. First of all, you did not know automatically that it was Psalm 68. So that's a strike against you, Nathan. Like, of course, you know, everyone should know.  Everyone should know that that's Psalm 68. You know,  And also, I am pretty sure I you say that, like, there are parts of Paul's letter that don't matter and we can just cut them out. So that's yeah, we're going to talk about this later, Nathan. No, not at all. What I said. No, that is not. uh No,  does. You're right. It does seem like kind of an interesting odd, almost intrusion or insertion into Paul's flow of thought. uh So here's  what's going on with that reference and why I think it's significant. So, yes, Paul is picking up a passage from Psalm 68 that is uh this picture  of  as  I think I touched on this a little bit. It's driven from the image of God leading his people out in the Exodus  and like in triumphal victory and God uh ascending like a conquering hero up to Mount Sinai where he's enthroned in glory  and all the nations tremble before him.  the interesting part here is that,  as we mentioned, Paul takes this passage from Psalm 68, which says,  You ascended on high, leading a host of captives and receiving gifts among men.  But Paul sort of shifts it instead to say when Christ ascended on high, he gave gifts to men. And we talked a little bit about I think I think Paul's just sort of alluding to the fact that it's sort of like this triumphal victory procession.  And yes, he's he's in a sense sort of plundered the enemy for spoils  and.  received gifts in that way, but at the same time, he's distributing those gifts to his people. it's  building off that same imagery. But the reason I think Paul is using that here is particularly because it's  associated. mean, the Psalm is specifically literally about God's victory, God's triumph over his enemies, over the people that are opposed to his people and opposed to his kingdom and opposed to his rule.  And here, Paul is pulling it into this picture of what God is doing through his  New Testament as a new covenant people in a similar way through Christ. Just it's sort of like again how Christ has become the fulfillment of all these not even just Old Testament prophecies, but images and types we say.  then Christ is the Passover lamb. Christ  is the sacrifice. Christ is the conquering King. So now  Paul is taking that imagery of the Exodus and God's victory and freedom that he's brought to his people and applying it to Christ and saying, that's who we are, church. That's who you are. Christ has ascended victoriously, not just defeating the powers of Pharaoh in Egypt, but defeating all the spiritual forces of evil that  we're going to hear more about in chapter six, right, with the  principalities and powers. Yeah. So I think Paul is in a sense are previewing this image  of a battle between forces of good and evil that Christ is the conqueror.  And  in his victory, he's plundered the enemy for spoils and is distributing those gifts to his people who are now also participating in that ongoing battle  against  the principalities and powers and forces of evil. And Christ has gifted and empowered us as his church to experience victory, not in taking up swords and chariots, but the spiritual battles that we're fighting  against the principalities and powers and evil forces.  And  Christ has actually conquered and brings us into that ongoing battle to live out the victory over spiritual forces of sin and evil and temptation and death and destruction and injustice and all of that. So yeah, does seem a little, you're right on one hand,  you you could read the passage without it, but Paul has taken the opportunity here to both make a connection to the old covenant and a uh picture, a type of God's victory and empowerment  that he's applying to us as his  church, as his new covenant people. I love that Paul, you know, takes this little  almost detour. uh But not really, because he's again, uh highlighting the significance, right? Like the cosmic significance of the church and what we're doing in a battle we're engaged in. Yeah. So what Psalm 68,  as a song of praise was  celebrating and glorifying God over what he did in Exodus, Paul is saying, like that level of salvation, is now true in Christ  and in a similar way he has ascended, he has left, he has left the lower regions of the earth because he descended down to earth, he's left that, he's ascended and in his ascension he hasn't left us on our own, he has created us into a one body of Christ, one community and in doing so he's also left us with  gifts.  that help us to do that very thing.  The gifts are not just treasures and blessings and whatever we want, but it's purposeful gifts. Yes. Yeah.  In fact, if you, I mean, it's great if anyone wants to go back and read Psalm 68, because as you look at the other verses, he's really picking up this imagery from verse 18, but  David, the psalmist goes on to say, blessed be the Lord who daily bears us up. God is our salvation. Our God is a God of salvation and to God the Lord belong deliverances from death. And there's even a future anticipation of victory. God will strike down the heads of his enemies.  And so there's this, yeah, Paul is bringing in all this imagery that the Jews certainly would have been familiar with,  but he's also calling the Gentiles to say, wow, you're really part of this now too, right? Like, this victory that God has won over sin and death and evil. And we're now also empowered to live that out daily, right? Like we  have been delivered from death and we are being delivered from death as we continue to walk with Jesus  in the power that he's given us. And the church is the demonstration of that as a new community of God's  people. uh Well, thanks for helping us understand  that. reference to Psalm 68 a little bit better. And since we spent like 10 minutes talking about it, you understand why we cut it for time. Yeah. So he does go on to talk about what he has given, and that is something we've already referenced, apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers to equip the saints for the work of ministry. Jeff, there's several passages in the New Testament that talk about these spiritual gifts, right? That when we are saved in Jesus and we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, we're given gifts for the body, right? Not just for our own building up, but for the building up of the body of Christ. This seems a little bit different than spiritual gifts, because as you hinted at earlier, they're kind of like  offices or positions. uh Are these all the same? Is it the same thing as spiritual gifts, just worded differently? If not, what are these? And then are all of these  still present today? Because I think maybe that was another question in terms of, right, yeah, we have shepherds or pastors and teachers, but do we still have apostles? Do we still have prophets? What does he mean by evangelists? Do we still have those? So I know that was like four or five questions, only one, but I think you you can dilineate between them. We'll knock this out in just a minute and a half. Yeah. Yeah, that's huge, right? Like this, this would be a whole series of classes on spiritual gifts. And yeah, those are some those are really good, insightful questions. ah So  one  way that we can think of it as a distinction between what we might call gifts and offices.  So  in  the the gift list, there's I mean, Paul even mentions  a gift of evangelism,  a gift of teaching.  And yet Paul is talking here almost like it's  he has gifted the church, but almost more like with certain offices or functions. And to make it even more confusing, you you can be a pastor or a teacher and my teaching might not, for example, even be your main gift. Your main gift might be encouragement or exhortation, but it's being worked out in an office or function of teaching. now that everyone's totally confused. Yeah, I think Paul is talking a little bit differently here, not about  in the same way that he talks about in  first Corinthians and Romans about  the kind of spiritual gifts for the  church, but almost sort of how Christ has gifted the church in general.  yes,  so I think  I  and I think most most Christians, most evangelical Christians would say, yeah, there aren't apostles anymore in the way that they existed and functioned in the New Testament era. So yes, they were apostle literally just means one who is sent out.  So there were men who were sent out to preach the news of Christ, to plant churches, to start new ministries, people like Paul, Peter, and others. uh think that- And while that role might still exist in the church today, we just might not call them apostles.  We might call them missionaries or global partners or church planners. So I think that that function still exists in the church for obviously taking the message of Christ into new territory for planting churches for  establishing new works. But in terms of an authoritative role, like these apostles  held of writing inspired scripture of, the, think of maybe like the Jerusalem council and coming up with kind of an authoritative word to the Gentile churches.  So I don't think the function continues in that way. Prophets, ah there's, mean, Paul even talks about a gift of prophecy, which,  you know, so for us to remember, uh prophets were more forth telling than foretelling, right? Like most of the work of the Old Testament prophets was not predictive, but more descriptive. Like, hey, you guys have gone off track. God sent me to kind of open your eyes and soften your heart and call you to unplug your ears and listen to him. So  that function still continues in the church,  probably again, not in the same way that apostles, you know, authoritative uh representative. Thus says the Lord, you know, we might not get that right now.  And similarly, again, there's both an office  of evangelists, you know, we call people evangelists, but there's also a gift of evangelism that a lot of people have.  Their pastors and teachers. So yeah, I think those functions largely continue  on through  all the church  all the church  Universal and the church age uh the functions may be slightly different especially for apostles and prophets  again as we talked about because  The canon of scripture is closed right like we're not adding new scripture and and that's where certainly we would differ with groups like say the the Mormons and Joseph Smith would disagree with our interpretation.  because his argument was, well, God appeared to me and told me that all the other churches on the face of the earth were wrong and apostate, but I have the new updated revelation from God that said everyone right.  And you have to believe this authoritative revelation or you're not really right with God.  hopefully we would be able to see that, hear that and say like, yeah, no, that's   We we stand apart on that  So right there  we would say there aren't apostles in that sense.  There are Joseph Smith's are not apostles from God uh that apostolic function missionary church planter  Starting new works taking the gospel into new territory missionaries.  Yeah, of course that function continues but they're explaining and passing on the revelation that the Apostles and and the know, biblical prophets have handed to us. Yeah. Well, thanks for helping us unpack this passage even more. Hopefully,  all of our listeners are able to see and hear a little bit more of what Paul is getting at in this passage. But  as we think about  where we're headed and before we get there, just want to ask you as you were working on your sermon.  This was a bit of a longer passage, but  yeah, was there any part of your sermon you had to cut for time,  things you wanted to get into, maybe that we haven't talked about yet that you were hoping to or even an illustration? What you got? Yeah,  it's funny, you mentioned I used an illustration at the end of first hour that  in the closing comments that I didn't at the end of worship that I didn't use in second hour, but maybe I'll just save that one for later.  uh Yeah, a thought,  we talked a little bit  about this in terms of the why God gives gifts  in the development of the message on Sunday that God gives his church so that we would show the glory of Jesus, right? Like this is where Paul's talking about,  we're called to speak the truth and love. We're called to build one another up.  We're called to  help one another grow into the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to to help one other grow into the stature of the fullness of Christ. yeah,  I  even in relation to this passage,  I  remember hearing,  reading in a commentary  hearing it put, you know, maybe in different ways that  it's important for us not to confuse the gifts  of the spirit with the fruit of the spirit.  And even in the Bible and what's meant by that is even in the Bible, there are people like King Saul, right? Remember,  the Spirit of God comes on King Saul and he prophesies, he exercises a gift of prophecy. Judas was among the 12 that Jesus sent out to drive out demons and preach the good news of the kingdom and, you know, heal the sick and open the eyes of the blind. And Paul talks about Demas in one of his letters, you know, guy who's wandered away from the faith. And these were all people who had  some experience of the gifts of the Spirit somehow. And yet, they  ultimately didn't end up belonging to Jesus.  mean, Jesus talks about, you know, people on the last day saying, Lord, in your name, didn't we drive out demons and perform miracles? And Jesus saying, I never knew you. So there's this  strange,  how  does that work? Right?  I think that the big thing for us to take away is, man, in our culture, Just generally, like American culture, we love gifts and talents and  we kind of idolize celebrity and  people.  There's just something about us, right? Like we really  are impressed by people who can speak We gravitate towards that. Yeah, people that have gifts and leadership, people can speak well, people that are attractive and charismatic, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. But  I...  You know, there's also a warning in scripture that don't confuse giftedness  with the fruit of the Spirit, with the work of God growing us into the likeness of Christ.  And Paul is saying, yes, God has gifted us, he pours out gifts on his church, but the whole point of it is to grow us up into Christ's likeness.  And  it's just an appeal for all of us,  especially me and we live more and more and more in such a media saturated culture and it's all quick takes and who's hot and who's in and  you know who we're following and what's the latest trend and yeah it's all whatever I mean you can take it or leave it but I think Paul would say don't be  so impressed with people's giftedness. Giftedness is important and God gifts the church but remember the reason God gives those  gifts is to build us up into  Christ-like maturity,  which means  what we really ought to be looking at, certainly in ourselves, is not so much gifts, but am I growing in love and joy and peace?  Is there evidence of God's patience and kindness and gentleness and goodness and self-control in my life?  That's the evidence of the Spirit really being present in us in a life-giving, transformative way.  And so if anything, it's just, yes, Paul even says in 1 Corinthians, seek the gifts, seek the gifts of God. But he says especially the gifts that build up the body. So yeah, let's own our giftedness, let's seek to develop those gifts that God has given us. But most of all, let's seek to use them in a way that's about building one another up and leading us and others into maturity and Christ-likeness and unity and upbuilding of one another to glorify Christ. That's really good. It's a shame you had to cut that. But thanks for sharing that here. And I think the point you're making is a key one, wherever you heard it from, but I'm going to try to say it back to you to make sure I understood you correctly. And so you're not saying that like maybe for some of these people you gave examples of whether it was Saul from the Old Testament or Judas or Deaness.  The giftedness they have is just kind of the general giftedness that God gives to all people, right? That we have different gifts, talents, skills, abilities. And that's maybe easy to fake at times.  Or to use that for whatever profit they want to make, Especially if you think of Judas, right? He had his hands in the money pouch. Right. But you're saying you can't really fake the fruit of the Spirit.  that's how we know who's in the body of Christ is you'll know them by their fruit, right? They'll know you are my disciples by your love for one another. And so  the way we  use those gifts for the benefit of the body,  exercising the fruit of the Spirit  is the way we show that we belong to Jesus. Is that more or less kind of what you were getting at? Yeah. No, no, no, you're right. You're right. But I but I would say  there's I mean, there's  we need a cut for time from from the comfort time like we'll have to. OK, we'll have to. It's like an inception of cut for times  because man, this opens up a whole huge  set of questions because the spirit of God came on Saul. Right. Like  any prophesy led by the spirit. And yet.  It didn't really change him. It didn't.  It didn't change his heart. It didn't soften him. It didn't lead him to pursue the Lord and love him. And so it wasn't even Saul's natural gifts. I mean, your larger point is certainly true. Yeah. That  it can either be natural gifts or spiritual gifts. But there's,  a sense, gifts can almost be, I don't want to say danger, but it's just, it's something to be aware of for anyone who is gifted and especially if we have our own natural gifts, like we can coast on gifts for a long time  and serve and look like everything's good on the outside. When we're  not nurturing a relationship with Jesus, maybe we're even walking away from him. I mean, I think that's the case  of, you know, all the scandals of failed leaders, people who had huge ministries that maybe were impacting thousands of people, gifted speakers, communicators, leaders, and yet there was something going on inside. were not staying close to Jesus. They weren't staying humble. They weren't nurturing a living relationship with him.  right, so we could look at any number of stories of  failed leaders who were  still  outputting, in a sense, putting out ministry and teaching and leadership and, uh, you know, the numbers all looked good and the impact all looked good. And yet there was some kind of  emptiness on the inside. There, there, there, was almost like a, you know, a hollow, a dead tree, maybe in a sense that maybe it looks good, but you open it up. It's like, Oh my gosh, it's full of termites in here. So  I mean, it's a both and if that makes sense, right? Like, yeah, I think so. You can certainly be acting out of just our natural gifts. It can even be  coasting on the gifts of the Spirit for a time, I think.  Yeah. So, yeah, it could be either of those.  But in either case,  the main thing  is,  and Jesus cares so much.  I almost want to say Jesus cares more about our heart and our relationship with Him. and what kind of people we're becoming than the things that we're doing. And yes, ideally, of course, it's out of a relationship with Jesus that we are doing things for him, that Christ is working and he is impacting. it's not like it has to be a trade-off. But the warning is just watch our tendency to avoid...  measuring someone based on the easily observable output or the measurable indicators, right? uh The real indicators, as you were saying, are  what kind of a person am I becoming?  is there evidence of Jesus? um I'm  fumbling for the right word. uh Uncopiable? What's the word I'm trying to think of? uh Yeah, I know what you're getting at. The parts of you that you can't fake. The sprite, can't, I can fake giftedness for a while or maybe even have a giftedness, but I'm just operating out of my own strength. But it's really hard to fake love, humility, kindness, compassion, other centeredness, radical generosity, and that's- Self-control. Yeah. Yeah, right? Right.  And  that's,  anything, uh the kind of the sobering reminder, I think, that Paul would leave us with. um And here again, I see, you know, he's focusing  on there's some negative aspect there, right? Like we don't want to be like children tossed to and fro by waves and carried about by human cunning, right? Like Paul's even alluding, I think, to this here.  Children, know, people are immature. We can get easily impressed by human cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes.  But as you're saying, Nathan, there's a genuineness to the fruit of the spirit that you really can't fake ultimately. I mean, not in any real way, not in any lasting way. uh There's just,  yeah, the reality is it's  character is going to show up and demonstrate itself. eventually in ways that we can plaster over with giftedness. Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you, Jeff, for taking the time to sit down with me and all of our listeners for a few minutes and talking through a little bit more from your sermon on Sunday. I know it's from personal experience, sometimes it's as soon as second hour is done, you're like, I'm ready to move on to the next thing. And there's other tasks to do, but uh Hey, we're here, we're still talking about it and that's a good thing  because the beauty of God's Word is that it continues to  work at us and work in us for the glory of God and the benefit of the body of Christ as  we hear and study more and more of God's Word, it has that effect. So thank you. I  don't have anything to add to that. mean, I would say you probably have a gift of teaching there, Nathan, an  exhortation. That's impressive. was just about to wrap it up. So that's what I'm going to do. I just want to say thanks, uh Jeff, for taking us through this. Thanks to all our listeners who stuck through maybe a little bit of a longer cut for time, but they got to know better than to put two pastors on a Zoom call together. So this is what you get when you do this. So  if you stuck through everything to this point, thank you. And just a reminder, we love getting your questions  for cut for time and beyond.   If you're here on Sunday mornings and you look up on the screen, there is a number to text your questions to.  We love, love, love getting those questions and we read them. We're thankful to get them. So thanks for being with us. Thanks for being in the church and we look forward to talking to you soon. Thanks, Jeff. Thanks everybody. Thanks, Nathan. Thanks guys.  Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time.  If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following Sunday's sermon, you can email them to podcast at faithchurchindie.com  or  text them in to our faith church texting number  and we'll do our best to cover them in next week's episode.  If this conversation blessed you in any way,  we encourage you to share it with others.  We'll be back again next week.