Hey. You're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the North Side Of Indianapolis. My name is Claire Kingsley. Each week, I'll sit down with one of our preaching pastors to discuss their Sunday sermon. Cut for time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation, and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday.

Thanks for listening. Alright. We're back, and we're back a couple of time, and we are back in our act series. It feels good. Yeah.

It's opposite. I do really I have really enjoyed it so far. Yeah. Ellie Jones did the scripture reading this week, and I just I appreciated her comment because I felt the same way. Like, oh, it feels good to get our purple axe journals back out.

Like, oh, yeah. It's like an old friend. It is. And I was impressed with how many people I saw saw had their journals because I did not go prepared. I'm like, oh, I forgot about that thing.

It felt like honestly, even going into my office, on Sunday morning beforehand to preach and pulling it out of my little shelf next to my desk. I'm like, oh, this is I yeah. This feels good. It feels good just to pull that purple x journal back out. Yeah.

And I'm also really thankful that you gave me a recap last week and cut for time, so I was prepared for this week. And you did also help us by recapping a little bit in your sermon, about where did we leave off, you know, a month and a half ago or two months ago. So why don't you give us a rundown from your sermon on Sunday, which was from the middle of chapter 25, like, starting, I think, verse 13, all the way to the end? Yeah. So, Paul has been sitting in prison under the Romans in Caesarea for the last couple of years under this governor Felix.

A new guy Festus has come in. He had kind of, you know, he brought the, Jewish opponents from Jerusalem to come down and laid out all these accusations, and Festus realizes he's really done nothing criminal. But Paul appeals to Caesar. And, you know, so basically in this section, Paul is off the scene totally. Paul is, you know, somewhere probably back in his prison cell, and, Festus is kind of stuck with this difficult situation of like, okay.

The guy I have to send the guy to Rome, but I have to have some reason to tell Caesar why I'm sending this guy to him, and he hasn't really done anything that would make me send him to Rome. And, in you know, as he's sort of agonizing over that, he's sort of saved by a couple of visitors who show up, king Agrippa and Bernice, and, they present an opportunity to, have all come out again and just sort of explain what's the story here. So the the passage itself is it almost is kind of like this little background interlude between, like, Paul's trial before Festus, and then what's gonna end up being sort of an opportunity for Paul to basically preach the gospel and give a defense of why he's doing what he's doing. And and so it's just in in some ways, on the surface, it looks kinda like this, odd little narrative background, but I think that's actually a bit of what Fluke is doing. He's sort of giving us a behind the scenes look at how God is working in ways that we don't expect, we don't maybe even anticipate when we're not on the scene when it, you know, Paul is nowhere to nowhere to be found in this passage.

And yet God is doing stuff here through unbelievers, and in in the context of, you know, they're trying to make themselves look good and it it seems all impressive and they look all powerful and significant and yet God is doing stuff behind the scenes that's much more significant and much more powerful, in advancing the the work of the gospel. Even amazingly, in, you know, the last time Paul was on the scene, he didn't even talk about Jesus. He it was almost like he gets kind of he's just reached the point of I'm done with this. He's like, these guys are just launching accusations and none of it's true and you're not listening. So, no, I'm not gonna go Jerusalem and be assassinated by these guys there.

I I appeal to Caesar. That's that's basically what he does the last time. And yet somehow, Festus picks up the governor picks up on the fact that that's something about a resurrection and an Agrippa of all people who is just this notorious scandalous guy, who's from this whole line of Herod, Herod's whose great grandfather tried to kill cheeses as an infant, whose great uncle, beheaded John the Baptist. His father kills the apostle James, like, of all people. You would think this guy is gonna go, like, well, we know how to deal with this.

Like, just behead the guy. Why are you even giving it a second thought? And a group of says, you know, I'd really like to hear him. You're like, so as we've, like, slowed down and look at this passage, you're like, wow. How is that a thing?

How did that happen? And and that was kind of the I think the the thought that came back to me is, Luke is helping us get a look behind the scenes to see how God, might be working and, intervening and pulling things together and even working in people's hearts, when we're not there, when maybe we haven't even done a great job of representing Jesus. And and I think it's it's meant to give us encouragement, you know, that we want to do a good job being witnesses of Jesus, and yet God is working and God is patient in in people's lives in in ways that I think can help maybe take the pressure off for us. Not not to be lazy, not to say like, well, you know, God's gonna sort of magically drop the gospel into their lives. No.

We we need we wanna be faithful. We we wanna, you know, represent Jesus well, but we don't sometimes. And and we miss it. And and also, God is at work behind the scenes working in people's lives when we don't. And that's just super encouraging and just amazing, frankly.

I I think if anything, like, Luke wants us to sort of see this picture and go, like, that's incredible that God's working in the middle of all that mess, to to do some really cool stuff. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. So you said to you encourage us to not be too caught up or impressed with, human justice, human glory, and human power.

And, I feel like I get the second two. Like, those make sense to me. The first one, human justice, I know you kinda gave it a caveat. You're like, not that we don't care about that. Like, we do work for that.

But it just didn't seem to be it didn't sit the same as the other two, like, found very clearly. Like, yes. I understand that. So, explain the human justice piece again and why we shouldn't get too what were you saying? Like, we shouldn't get too caught up into I think just, like, don't don't put too much trust or hope for justice on the human level.

And and I yeah. There there's there's a clear tension there. Right? Like, especially for us as Americans. I mean, and and in this cultural moment, even I'm not saying don't advocate for justice, don't care about justice.

I think it's just be realistic about the limits of what we can expect from human justice systems. Because I mean, what we're seeing from Festus, what we're seeing from Agrippa, I mean, like Festus is I I think I just forgot or, you know, lost it. Maybe things change change from first hour to second hour when you preach. And in first hour, I I maybe felt more pressed for time, second hour. I brought out, like, Festus is kind of an echo of Pontius Pilate.

He knows, I think deep down he knows that Paul has done nothing wrong. He doesn't, he shouldn't be condemned, he shouldn't even be imprisoned. He certainly has done nothing deserving of death, but he feels the pressure. Right? Like he wants to please the important people in society, and and he's caught and justice is often caught in that tension between our aspirations for actually doing what is right and maybe political realities or cultural realities.

And, you know, we have an ideal in America of, you know, the image even of blind justice, right? Like the woman with the scales and the sword and she's blindfolded. And because the idea is we're weighing justice with without any partiality. And yet when has it ever worked that way in our world, in any world? And this Roman justice system is good in a lot of ways.

Right? Like, I mean, Festus makes a big deal of I think it's I think it would be unjust to send someone to Caesar without giving a reason for, why, you know, the the charges against them. And yet he's still sending him to Caesar, and he's still sending him to Caesar knowing that I mean, if he'd really been interested in justice, he would have just let Paul go. But there was no reason for it to get to the point of Paul needing to appeal to Caesar because Festus knows he hasn't done anything deserving of even being imprisoned. And yet human justice is often the victim or the expression of our injustice.

The the rich and the powerful and people working behind the scenes and people get caught up, you know, in important people pulling the strings and political considerations. And, so we want to keep striving towards justice. We as Christians, especially of all people, are are called even, you know, I think of the the the great statement that we, you know, when we went through the prophet Micah a few years ago, in Micah six, what does the Lord require of you? He showed you what's good to to do justice, to walk humbly, and to love the Lord your God. And how that so that is the goal for us, and yet we know even for followers of Jesus, we fall short of that.

And especially our systems here in this world are always going to fall short of doing true justice. I I think it's helpful for us as well to to recognize. We, I think just as humans in general, but maybe even especially as Americans and with how much we love, you know, we get so distracted and we love entertainment and, you know, we, I think we're, we're losing a capacity for nuance and, and subtlety. And we live in a sound bite culture where we want everything to be explained to us in ten seconds or less. And we want easy categories of black and white and good and bad.

If we slow down at all, we recognize that's not even true of ourselves. Right? Like, we are complex just at an individual level. I'm a complex person. I I have elements of good and bad in me.

I I have elements of right and wrong. I have elements of wisdom and foolishness. And our motives are complicated. Like, why do I do the good that I do? Well, some of it is because I love Jesus and I want to be a good person.

Some of it is self interest. Some of it is, you know, maybe even some of my good is due to laziness. Right? Like, I I read one pastor commenting, like, what why do why am I faithful to my wife? Well, I love her.

It's the right thing to do. God's commanded me to do. But, you know, there's also benefits to me in being faithful to my wife, and I'm kinda lazy too. Right? Like, I don't wanna invest the energy to go out and find someone else.

And I hope I hope that comes across the right way. Right? Like, as humans, we're just complex in situations, political situations, geopolitical realities. I mean, we like to have easy stories of good and bad and who wears the black hat and who wears the white hat, and it just is not that way. And that works against our ability to really do justice because justice requires wisdom, discernment, thoughtfulness, it it it, you know, understanding of complex realities and situations.

And, so our justice system and our justice in this world, you know, is a reflection of our sinfulness, our impatience, our lack of ability to tolerate nuance. And and so we should be realistic about the limits of human justice, even while as Christians, we're called to be more thoughtful and more reflective, and more, intentional in trying to seek justice, which is difficult at best and can often take a long time and and a lot of effort and thought, more than sometimes we're willing to give. Mhmm. Now I'm tracking with you. And I just think it boils down to, it's a it was created by man.

It was a system Yeah. That, can sometimes work really well and sometimes work really poorly. But it was not created by God. And so, like, ultimately, that has limits then. Right?

Oh, yeah. Same thing with all of these. They're all created by humans instead of Right. And and in that, to recognize, I think the other part is to is to, you know, hopefully, as man, there's just there's a part of me, and I know for a lot of people, part of what's attractive about Jesus is, you know, like, just this we we have a sense of almost outrage about injustice. Right?

Like, we want people to get what they deserve, and I wanna get what I deserve, and yet I I don't ultimately want what I deserve. And and I I need to be more thankful for the grace of God, and yet at the same time also trust myself to the reality that there is ultimate justice. Right? Like, when inevitably, I suffer injustice, I'm wrongly accused, I'm slandered, I'm misunderstood, I can also rest in the fact that I don't have to, like, demand that things go the way they should. And I can rest in the fact that Jesus does know.

Yeah. And he will judge rightly in the end that that all all injustice will be accounted for, that when Jesus returns, he will inaugurate finally, a rule of justice and righteousness, in a new heavens and a new earth, and that no injustice or wrong that I have suffered will be forgotten, or unaccounted for. But it also, I think, makes us reflect on the fact that, that's gonna be true of the injustices I've done as well. And and do I want my injustices covered by the righteousness and the justice and the forgiveness of Jesus? So it man, there's there's just so many layers to this the more we start thinking about it.

Yeah. I I want justice, and and I I wanna be careful to not be, you know, to not fall in the trap of wanting mercy for myself and justice for others. Sure. And I I want to be a person who also works for justice and recognizes that even my efforts at seeking justice are tainted and, you know, a mixture of motivations. Sure.

And to to ultimately be able to entrust myself to the one who will judge justly. Mhmm. Yes. I didn't even ask you if you had other things that you had to cut for the sake of time. No.

I mean I mean, you you could, theoretically, I mean, I could kinda say, like I mean, this has just been great an opportunity to explore more of those topics. I mean, because, yeah, it could be a whole you could do a whole grow class on I mean, Chet has been doing a whole grow class on what is biblical justice, you know, for a couple of years. I mean, there's just so much to unpack there. But I mean, the old testament laws were, you know, God's trying to call his people into seeing what justice will look like lived out in a particular context and guided by, you know, the principles of his character and and what does it mean to do right to our neighbors and love them and seek their good. And yeah.

So there's three and there's so much there. And then the the the whole other issue is of glory and power. Right? Like, Rome was all about power, and they exercised a kind of power that was impressive and, yeah, led to, at times, periods of peace, but also power that was exercised against I mean, there was still slavery and, brutality and Roman justice was often swift and merciless. And, you know, so there's a power there that both Festus and Agrippa think that they have and that Caesar thinks he has that looks really impressive.

And yet Rome doesn't exist as an empire anymore. And, you know, it the whole thing collapsed on itself. And that's true of all empires. I mean, if Jesus doesn't come back at some point, there's probably not gonna be an American empire. America is not gonna last forever.

Jesus' kingdom lasts forever. And and that's the the real hope that we have, as as we see power used for good and for evil and for sometimes for, you know, ways that it's hard to know whether it's for good or for evil. Mhmm. And so it's a challenge for us as well to think through what kinds of power, what kinds of authority has Jesus given me and how do I use it? And to recognize also that Jesus is the one who has all the power.

Festus and Agrippa and Caesar think that they're in charge, and Jesus is there the whole time working through all those things and accomplishing his purposes. And and, again, it gives us, I think, a confidence to trust in Jesus in the face of, you know, what can look unjust or overwhelming or impressive in terms of glory and, to to remember that Jesus is at work, and he's working on his purposes, sometimes even through human systems and powers that look impressive but don't ultimately have the final say. Yes. It's a good it's a good reminder for me, for us, in the middle of, you know, a world that can often seem overwhelming. We're we're getting ready to go on a trip to Poland to serve our brothers and sisters from KTS who are continuing to live under the threat of Russian power and dominance that's intended to destroy them.

And how do you maintain hope and encourage one another and continue going forward when, it seems like there's this powerful force that literally wants to destroy you? And and how do I continue to live and serve in that? And how do we encourage them? So, yeah, there's there's, man, it'd be fun to just sit down and talk for hours about some of these things because there's a lot to explore there. Mhmm.

Yeah. And, I mean, I think something that you said, like, it stood out to me because I imagine it would stand out to others when you were like, the American empire. Like, it's not gonna last forever. Like Yeah. How many people just gasped when you said that, like Yeah.

And then how many people did that, like, just hurt a little bit? Like, oh, dear. I hope that's not in my lifetime. I don't know. Like, that's a really good signal or sign to us.

Like, hey. Let's evaluate that. Why did I feel that way? Do I have too much trust, or is it an appropriate amount? Like, I am super thankful to live here.

I am super thankful to have Yeah. For sure. Rights and the privileges that we are afforded in this country. And yet, like, yeah, don't put too much. You're not saying don't put any hope in there.

You know? You're just like, just be be realistic. I think you've said that word, about, yeah, just let's make sure it's balanced. It's like it's not fifty fifty like United States and Jesus's kingdom. It's like, put all your stock in Jesus's kingdom, but still invest here, right, and be present here.

Right. Yeah. I right. Because I think we, people have put it this way. You know, there's there's a healthy love of country just like there's a healthy love of family.

There's there's a healthy love of place. Right? I I mean, my family is the place that for good or for bad, and you know, to love and honor my family and love and honor my country, but I I want to love and honor it for the ways that it reflects Jesus' kingdom and values. And I want to be honest about the ways that it doesn't and love it enough to, call our nation, our family, our church, or whatever to reflect more of Jesus' values and character and and purposes. Yeah.

Recognizing that none of it's right? Like, no nation is going to last forever, which is just I I it probably would have been really hard for people living in the Roman empire when Luke is writing this to to imagine there's gonna be a day when Rome literally, like, doesn't exist anymore, and it it just falls apart into chaos and yeah. That seemed like an impossible thing to wrap your head around. Yeah. Right.

Right. Which is why it's important for us to to love our nation, to seek its good, to to to help it grow in godly ways, and also recognize that it's good to the extent that it reflects the ultimate kingdom of Christ and and the values and the character of that kingdom. Yes. %. That's a good way good way to wrap up, Jeff.

So thank you so much for our time today and for diving a little bit deeper on those things, specifically human justice, but all of them in general. And I really am looking forward to next week because you did leave leave us off on a cliffhanger. Yeah. And I didn't like it, and so I did read ahead. I've read it before, but not within the context of, like, you know, this sermon.

You know? So I just had to just keep reading, but I'm looking forward to it. So thank you for your time. Me too. Be good.

Your time, and we look forward to chatting next week. Thanks, Claire. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time. If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following their sermon, you can email them to podcast@faithliveitout.org or text them into our faith church texting number, and we'll do our best to cover it in the week's episode. If this conversation blessed you in any way, we encourage you to share it with others.

Thanks for listening. We'll be back again next week.