Hey. You're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the North side of Indianapolis. My name is Claire Kingsley. Each week, I'll sit down with one of our preaching pastors to discuss their Sunday sermon. Cut for time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation, and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday.

Thanks for listening. So, we get to talk for, like, an hour if we want to because people won't have to listen to us for the next month on comfort time. Oh, that's right. And so I feel like we have 4 weeks worth of time that we could take up right now in this moment. Well, good.

Because I had lots that I didn't have time to talk about. Now when you said we could talk for an hour, I thought you meant because it's currently 11 and staff's giving is at noon. And so we have an hour before the turkey that Nathan smoked shows up at church for all of us to eat. So And it's true. We do have an hour.

But Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. Before I I jump into questions, why don't you go ahead and, give us a rundown of all what you did attempt to cover.

You you said at the beginning, you're like, there are 7 ways I could go with this passage. I'm doing all of it. So Yeah. Well yeah. So this passage is fascinating because Paul's back in Jerusalem, and there's things that Luke doesn't tell us.

Like, what happened with the offering that he was bringing? Like, we just don't even know. It it's like somebody described it. One commentator described it as like, you've watched this epic movie and 10 minutes from the end, the power goes out and you're like, I guess I'll never know what happens. Right?

It's that that kind of setup. And, Jerusalem is just in so much turmoil at the time and the church there is growing, but James and the other elders are they're really involved in just a Jewish church and they don't have firsthand, experience of how Jews and Gentiles get together in a church, like, how they get along together because that's not happening in Jerusalem. That's happening out elsewhere. And then Paul shows up, and there's this back and forth of, like, cool things are happening. Well, cool things are happening here too.

And, by the way, there's conflict and we don't know how to deal with it, but we have this idea that maybe if you go, you know, do something demonstrably out in public, people will see it and then we'll be able to, you know, hold off this this impending crisis we see of the Jewish wing here in Jerusalem revolting against the Gentile wing out there in in the, you know, the the hinterlands and just all of this is going on. And they come up with then a a plan that is like, it's not it doesn't work. It's not gonna work. Like, you can tell going into it, it's not gonna work. But all of that just, like, leadership dynamics and anxiety and, submission and authority and who's leading and who's following and all of that's happening.

And are you know, do you stand on what's right, or do you try to, help move people along slowly and just all of it's all all mashed up together in just these verses. There's just a fascinating study of, like, leadership in the early church and so many different leadership dynamics and the the tensions and struggles of leading. So where where ultimately I ended up going with the sermon and applying it is that, hey. If if your, you know, if your role is to lead, then lead. Even if you're anxious and trying to come up with the right thing to do and just not sure that you're gonna get it right and, insecure and all that, you still have to lead.

And if your role is to follow, then follow even if you think you could do it better than the person who's leading or you surely would not have made the same mistakes or say made those same decisions. And so everybody, you know, in our culture, we love lessons about leadership and being challenged to lead. Nobody's really excited to hear a challenge to follow or to follow well, especially. We're like, well, soon as I start following, you know, you're gonna take advantage of me or you're gonna be using your leadership somehow, and and then and then I'm gonna get hurt. I'm just not sure that I should follow.

I'll follow-up until I feel like maybe something's not work, and then I'm out. And so, yeah, bit of bit of an uncomfortable position I put myself in preaching this passage with those those applications. But I think that's what came through the most clearly is when you're called to lead, lead, and when you're called to follow, follow. And then I left it I left the tension so that we would have to wrestle with that for ourselves rather than trying to give people a 1,000 ways out of following. Exactly.

Because an easy, out I think the one that pops in my mind is, like, well, I could follow also. I could offer suggestions. Like, I'm not gonna lead, but I could, like, you know, say, well, what if we did this and what if you tried this and whatever? And it's like, is that true followship? Or is that, like, someone's is that what looked like supporting somebody really well in leadership?

Maybe it's the heart behind it that really actually matters. I don't know. There are just, ways to be a good follower. And probably yeah. And I think even just knowing if you're like, oh, I'm a natural follower.

I'm a natural leader. That doesn't mean that then that you means you lead in all areas of your life. Like, you might lead in some, but be called to ask to follow in others. And that probably feels really hard because you're used to maybe calling the shots or whatever, and then you have to take that back seat. So, anyways, like, tons of implications that you chose to not, like, pick out each different type of scenario because, as you said, we can try and sort it out for ourselves.

Mhmm. Mhmm. Alright. So we have one person texting in a question. They said, can you give us some more concrete examples of being a good follower when under bad leadership?

Yeah. Oh, man. Oh, it's a great question, and I'm sure the examples are just endless. You know, and I'm glad they asked, can you give more? Because, you know, this is one really good example of Paul going going along with, what they're asking him to do.

Right. Yeah. You know, it it strikes me, scripture is just full of illustrations of following bad leaders. And So You know, I was thinking about this even more afterwards, and was talking with Joel here in the office yesterday. And, you know, something we have to keep in mind that that from where we live now, we just sort of take for granted.

The whole idea, like, our country was founded and the founding documents begin with the words we the people. Right? And and so we live in a in an era of where our political philosophy is built around the consent of the governed that all of us who are being led are agreeing to be led together. Yeah. And to be clear, I'm a 100% in favor of consent to the governed.

I think it does an incredible job of honoring the individuality and the worth and dignity of every individual. But we have to keep in mind that that idea didn't exist when scripture was being written. So it's nowhere in the minds of anyone writing scripture or reading scripture for the 1st 1000 years, even the very the thought that the people leading are only there because I agree with them being there. Right? So scripture, the the the way that scripture imagines leadership to work is that every leader is placed there by God and given that authority to be in that position.

And so the the call of following a leader then is not a call to figure out how to replace that leader though of course that shows up at times right in assassinations or in Jesus's time the zealots that there were really only two theories of leadership. It was, like, either follow, while calling the leader to be a better leader than they are, or as a zealot, like, try to eliminate them, assassinate, and replace. There there wasn't, you you know, I remember preaching. Gosh. This was, like, 8 years ago.

Because I remember it was in the run up to the 2016 election. We were talking a little bit about politics. And and there's a there's a some technical definitions that are helpful. There's a difference between a citizen of a nation and a, a a subject of a nation. So even though Paul says, like, hey, I'm a Roman citizen and he appeals to his Roman citizenship, Technically, technical definitions are that that there there's no such thing as a Roman citizen, just Roman subjects.

Now we translate it citizen because they have more rights than the average, you know, non Roman citizen. But but here's the difference. A citizen has a technically speaking by definition, a citizen has a voice into how they are governed. They have input into the system of how they are governed, and a subject does not. A subject just has to submit.

Now subject may have more rights than, you know, a slave, but a subject has to submit. And so, you know, everything in scripture about politics and following leaders and things like that is not written to citizens. It's written to subjects. It's not written to people who have collectively consented to be governed. It's written to people who are just being led and there's no you don't have a choice.

So so anyway, back to the question, like, other examples. All throughout scripture, we see examples of bad kings and especially kings of Israel, and and we I can't think of any off the top of my head, though I'm perhaps there are. I can't think of any times where God says to his people, your job is to go replace that king. He said no. He keeps telling the prophets your job is to go tell that king to turn back to me.

And and so and I was thinking about all that afterwards, and I would have never had time to include it in the first place anyway. But, yeah, scripture doesn't, I I did mention in the sermon, 2nd hour. We never call for their heads. We call for their hearts that Yeah. We call people back to being a good leader, not trying to replace them.

So it it would be interesting, I think, for us to try to imagine for a day that kind of approach to the people in charge over us. That instead of complaining about how or trying to figure out how we would replace them, how would we instead think about enduring under bad leadership while calling bad leadership to be better than it than it is already. So Mhmm. I don't know that I actually answered the question, but that's the best I got. Yeah.

You did. I mean, I think you told us what it is and what it isn't. Like, what does being a follower under bad leadership look like? What is it? What does it not?

You know? So I think you got it. Alright. Alright. So why don't you tell us what you had to cut for the sake of time?

Yeah. Well, there's some fun stuff. Like, you know, illustration wise, I remember talking with an elder here at Faith a number of years ago. The family since moved on, so they're not here anymore. But, I remember him telling me he was on my student ministry staff, like, one of the small group leaders, he and his wife.

And and, I asked him at one point, like, why why do you because this guy is, like, a high up executive vice president in some huge company. Why do you follow me? Like, I'm 32, and I have no idea what I'm doing. And he's like, well, just because I lead at work doesn't mean I have to lead a church. Like, when I go to work, I'm the boss.

And when I come here, you're my pastor. And it's, like, the healthiest I've ever had it had it put to me in terms of, like, I don't have to just lead everywhere. Like, kinda like to be led every once in a while. So I knew I could've told that story. You know, we could've gotten into the whole dynamic between, Paul and James.

Like, Paul has always, it seems, landed on this side of let's let's go back to what's true and explain it as best we can. James seems to always kinda more like Barnabas in that way, always leaning towards the how do we sort of just help people move a little bit and and kinda consider where they are and help them. So it's, like in Myers Briggs language, it'd be the the thinker versus the feeler. You know? Paul's immediately thinking, okay.

Here's how we address this problem. We tell people what's true. And James is going, we have a problem. How do we help people in their feelings, and what could we do to address their feelings? So there's some of that dynamic, I think, is going on here as well.

You know, another interesting point is way back in Acts 15 when they said, hey. Remember the poor when they commissioned Paul to go out, and he talks about that in Galatians and other places. James, Peter, and John were the 3 guys there, and now it's just James. Peter's gone. John is gone.

We don't know where they are. So it's like of that initial three that sent Paul out. Now there's only one guy left, and so you kinda wonder how does that affect the dynamics of leadership here too. You know, how does James and Paul like, how well do they get along and how well are are they on the same page about what Jews and Gentiles, how they interact in the church, how they get along in the church. You know, when we read what James has written, he wrote to Jews following Jesus scattered everywhere in the book of James.

That's how it starts, you know, to the 12 tribes in the dispersion, the the Jewish Christians spread out around the world. Paul is primarily going to the Gentiles. James is apostle to the Jews. Like, all of this, like, dynamic is kinda coming to a head here. And so we didn't, you know, we didn't take the time to to go through any of that as well.

So I suppose we could also talk about theories of what happened with the with the offering. We don't know what happens there. We even you know, we know in, at the very end of Romans 5th Romans 15, I think it's verse 31, Paul's writing to the believers in Rome. This is a couple months before heading to Jerusalem, and he says, like, I'm headed to Rome. I'm bringing an offering.

Pray that it'll be accepted. Like, he's worried that they'll turn it down, you know, all this work that he's gone through. And he he says at the end of Romans, he's like, look. If if we Gentiles benefit from the Jewish Messiah, then we gentiles should contribute to the people of the Messiah. That's part of his fundraising strategy.

And, and but he's worried they're gonna, like, they're gonna turn it down, you know, because of the dynamic in in Jerusalem and what's going on there politically and just the the the high level of anxiety and angst just sort of in the culture. You know? Yeah. Another thing, I I have a book and, I'm looking at my shelf to see where it is, but it's about congregational leadership in anxious times. Like, how do you lead a group of people when the whole world around them has ramped up their baseline anxiety level to a certain certain height?

You know, to to more than it'd normally be. And you're saying this isn't a new issue. Like it's not a new issue. This isn't a new issue. No.

Yeah. This is not a new issue. But we've got James and the other elders who are facing and it's so fascinating because it's like an undetermined number of of unspecified people. Like, alright. All we know is that there there's a group out there who's heard about you.

We don't know what they think, but we think they're gonna know that you're here. And we think then something might happen bad. So let's get ahead of it by doing this thing. And it's it's all this, like, anxious insecure leadership of the phantom mob is at the phantom gates. And we don't know what weapons they have or what their problem's gonna be, but we gotta get in front of it.

You know? We gotta head it off. And Yeah. Anyway, there's just, like I said, so much in this passage, so much in this story. Now we just need to wait, for, like, 5 weeks before we have some resolution in Mhmm.

This part of the book of Acts. So we're gonna take a break from Acts for the season of Advent and for Christmas, and the week after Christmas, and then we'll come back to it. What do you want us to try and hold on to and remember? You know, because it's not like we can do a couple of time before the next axed act sermon of, like, hey. Remember.

Don't forget this. I mean, you could do it in your intro, but, if people are able to remember a few things, what do you want them to, like, hold on to so that when we revisit in a month Yeah. This is what we should remember. Well, even better. Jeff's gonna preach it.

So he gets to, he gets to recap what he heard me say, which is so funny. I was asking someone someone else, We just got to talking about the sermon and what they heard. And their takeaway was, yeah. No. What I learned was if you're born to lead, lead.

And if you're born to follow, follow. And I was like, born to? What do you mean born to? I don't think I remember saying that. Mhmm.

When your role is to lead or your role is to follow. But, yeah. So what would I want people to hold on to? I would want people to hold on to and this is where I ended up landing the sermon is yeah. The application for us is when your role is the lead lead and when your role is follow follow.

But the reason we can do that is because God can use even anxious, insecure leaders who are trying to, you know, politically posture themselves in front of a crowd in order to maybe move the needle a little bit. He can use even that to do his will. And Paul wants to go to Rome, and god's gonna get him to Rome. And along the way, he's gonna get these opportunities to preach that he would have never had otherwise. And so god can he can take care of it, and he can use even my bad leadership and my anxious leadership and my my I was gonna say anxious followership, but what I mean is probably my self righteous followership.

He he can use even that so that his will will be done. So what I want people to hold on to, as we start over, start over, pick up in the New Year, is this isn't an accident. Even though the plan was probably a mistake or very you know, at very least unwise, it's not an accident, and God's gonna use it. Mhmm. Alright.

Thanks, Joey, for your time today. Yeah. No problem. Looking forward to Christmas. That's right.

Longing for Christmas, in fact. I am longing for Christmas. How did you know? We all Because that's our that's our advent series, longing for Christmas. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time.

If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following their sermon, you can email them to podcast at faith, live it out.org or text them into our faith church texting number. And we'll do our best to cover it in the week's episode. If this conversation blessed you in any way, we encourage you to share with others. Thanks for listening. We'll be back again next week.