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Hey, you're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the north side of Indianapolis.  My name is Claire Kingsley.  And I'm Dan Breitwieser. Each week, one of us will sit down with the person who gave Sunday's sermon to discuss their message.  Cut for Time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation,  and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday. Thanks for listening. seven through thirteen uh message that was entitled  God's manifold wisdom so nick thanks so much for being back thanks for having me well first of all let's start with  um a summary of your sermon  and  um  yeah where you where you took the church body this week yeah summary well  um  i think the text really centered in on verse 10 which is that now through the church, God is demonstrating his manifold wisdom to the rulers and authorities. And, you know, that at the very beginning, as I got into the text, was like, well, I'm going to have to, I have to define what these rulers and authorities are, right? If the number, the point of this text is that he's putting this on display and I had to dive into that, which we can, you know, we can expound on if we want to. And then what is the wisdom that would put on display? I left alone, mean, the mystery that phrase comes up in this text, but Jeff dealt with that two weeks ago. And so we were looking at the wisdom of God and I think it's manifold, right? Many faceted, but it just layers on self-sacrifice, the sacrifice of Christ, to the luminous land life down which is so. counterintuitive in terms of what we what the world might say is wide what the rule of authorities might think of the glides and all the way then to the degree that he would would offer this this grace this salvation to the Gentiles to those who had been completely his enemies right and and that is that's just another many folders are folded it's a layer in the way that them are gotten to do that and that the rulers and authorities are are just backing by it. We see elsewhere in texts like in the, shoot, my mental concordance is failing me, but I believe it's in one of Peter's letters. The angels long to look into these things, they're trying to even still understand, you know, they're not omniscient beings. And then we ended with that beautiful verse in verse 12 that we now have gold mission access. So there's a sort of a summary. Yeah. I think certainly the focus, or least  most of  the sermon was really focused on that, the rulers  and authorities in the heavenly places.  I um would say when I look at that paragraph,  my eyes can tend to probably just glaze over, skip over that part.  So as you were studying the passage, I mean, you talked about how you felt like you had to get into that. You know, what sparked in you that, because I think it was a really interesting and enlightening discussion. And I think, as you kind of mentioned, you know, a lot of the other aspects of this passage, as we've been going through Ephesians, have been talked about, you know, the wisdom, the being the minister, God's grace. mean, so like, you know, you're wrapping in of the Gentile, that whole plan, the mystery of that. Most things have been unpacked. And here we hit this phrase, ruler than authority, heavenly places. So what sparked in you in that? what was the... Well,  it's interesting you said we spent a long time in the show, but I really wanted to not.  It's one of those tough ones where you have to go one of two directions. You either just, you know, with the wave of a hand, kind of say, uh-huh, right? just assume everybody knows what it means  because you don't want to deal with  it.  you got to kind of go headlong into it. And so I really didn't want this... passage to be or the sermon to be about the rulers and authorities. So I wanted to come up with  a short summary. did a quick survey of some Old Testament passages and really just tried to wrap around that idea of the powers behind the power. It is how I  raised it.  That there are governors, emperors, kings, mayors, whatever, but there is something metaphysical. There is some other power that is behind guiding, influencing, and maybe even controlling. And those kinds of oh definitions  of how and in what ways and to what degrees they're able to influence, I left the mystery.  I left to uh the level of detail that we have in Scripture and chose not to go beyond what we can know from Scripture and then just emphasize what we can know from Scripture that they are there and that they are real. and that we would be fools to learn that though they aren't. And yet they're on the periphery. And then I wanted, I don't know if I did this well or not. You you say  we spent a lot of time on it. You're right, we did. But I really wanted the sermon to focus on Christ, because that is where our focus should be drawn. ah And so, you know, Paul didn't spend a lot of ink on his scroll, whatever he may have been writing on, on those religious authorities. A lot of that because... There was a shared understanding. was already a sort of a common understanding in the air that that term was shorthand for something everybody knew what he meant. Now we don't. So I had to spend a little bit of time unpacking that. But I really hope that I drove on the point that these guys are not the focus. We should not be focusing our time on obsessing over them. Man, the manifold wisdom of God that he's putting on display to them is just. unbelievable. And we can spend our lifetime just trying to peel back those layers, those folds, those facets. Yeah, I think the interesting thing probably about our culture is we come in at the exact opposite direction as  Paul's audience,  because they would have seen it as, well, yeah, duh, of course there are powers behind the powers.  Unquestionable. And for us, it's like, wait, are you really? Like, I can't see them. I don't know that they're there.  um We have  just a  totally different perspective um on that. And I think of, um as you were talking about that, it made me think of um two, think amazing books that really get that into it um is  written by Frank Peretti,  This Present Darkness and Piercing the Darkness. Have you ever read those? No. No, no.  It is a really... um  I  highly recommend them in terms of  there's a  plot going on kind of in Earth, but then a major part of his story is the angelic forces  battling the demonic forces  kind of happening. so you see, again, this is just an author. I'm not saying this is how it actually works, but it kind of opens your eyes to the ideas  of  there is that power behind the power kind of thing. it's sort of God's manifold plan sort of works out. Again, in this novel, I'm not saying this is real life or anything like that. And I think, um but I think it's a really, um it's a really interesting um story that really connects really well with what you shared. So there's your book recommendation for the week, guess. But. uh  We do have two questions and one of them really was actually connected to the idea of medical and metaphysical. So I want to kind of get to that first  Why did you choose to use the word?  metaphysical  Rather than spiritual because I think of you know, there's you know, the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms You know, but you chose the word you met a physical. So was there a difference in your mind or what?  Well, the word choice and that  and you know I don't it was very subconscious, honestly, and somebody actually asked me this question in between services. So I preached first hour, but he asked me this question second hour,  I actually used both I think I said supernatural second hour  must have been just like, incepted into my brain. But, you know, in truth, they mean about the same thing. One comes from a Greek uh etymology and the other Latin. So  metaphysical is from the Greek.  which is meta,  overt, or above, or outside of physical, the  physical realm. And then supernatural is from the Latin,  so super, again, above, higher than the natural. So they really,  they could be used interchangeable. And I think subconsciously the reason why I used metaphysical, I prefer that term, and this is cut for time.  This was, this was a concept that I cut for time,  the  platonic metaphysics, actually. is a term, if you want to go Google that, learn about it, Plato and then Aristotle  were very influential in Greek thinking by putting forth the idea of  metaphysical realm. And I think that that would have been tied, certainly tied to possibly even  on the forefront of Paul's mind as he was describing his rulers and authorities. They existed in  the metaphysical, course, Plato and Aristotle were 400 years before Christ, but  still those philosophies kind of lived large in Greek culture,  whereas  Latin,  the supernatural, not really as dominant  in the Greek speaking world.  yeah,  same fundamental meaning  could be used interchangeable. And I think subconsciously,  I leaned toward metaphysics because I know the Platonic metaphysics and those philosophies actually lived large in lot of new tech. You got it. Very cool. All right. Well, you kind of mentioned  you this is the name cut for time. that's right. Did you what did we have one more question, but I you know, what did you cut for time? And,  and uh this week, well, I'll tell you,  one thing got added  very late.  And the other something else I cut so kind of lighthearted. But one thing that I cut was and I'll recommend to people now well recommend with a caution. There is a song  by the Rolling Stones called sympathy for the devil.  This is not a Christian song. Big giant asterisk. This is not a Christian song. However, as artists sometimes can, I think it actually captures the idea pretty well of this power behind the powers uh of Satan, the devil, right? And  how he has influenced  events throughout human history that we would perceive as evil uh in an artistic fashion. I think it does a really good job of capturing it. Not flawless, this is not scripture, they're not even Christians, but then I know I doubt it. But I've actually been a classic rock fan for a long, time and that's just a fantastic song. And it came to mind and I was like, oh, I should leave this in somehow. And then I realized, no, no, I really don't even do that. So that got cut for time. Something that got expanded later on is I did, I mean, it's easy to do this when you're And you're in the text and these rulers and authorities and the powers behind the powers and thinking about how to convey that and how to  condense it down and wrap these ideas and then present them in a way that everybody can understand and even know what you're talking about. And you say that the medical field of them, I got really wrapped into verse 10 and it was very late in the week. And I thought that I was pretty well wrapped with what I was, where I was heading at the sermon about going to read through the text and make sure I didn't miss anything. Really glad I did. Cause verse 12, then just that I completely had left that by the wayside. I hadn't even touched it yet. I was ending on these applications of how the power and the power sort of draw us away and affect our lives. Like I shared about politics and Wall Street and Hollywood and, there's 12 is we have boldness and access to the throne of God, but to Christ. And I was like, Oh my God, I cannot leave this while then I'm reworking things and what can, what else, you know, how can I condense these other ideas down so that I'm not just pontificating on these powers and stuff and I can  tell church you have access to Christ and the fullness and tie that in. And so that was a blessed late edition. Cool. Great. Thank you for sharing that. All right. Well, you kind of finished your  sermon with a kind of idea in terms of uh As you talked about some of these, you know, powers behind the powers that, powers understand domination, not submission. um know, shame, not confession. And there was a few I couldn't write them all down. ah It was it was really good. I couldn't read them all. I could write them all down, though. So  just kind of finishing here with a question that came in was, you know, do you have any practical advice on how to pursue God's justice in our community, in our country and in our culture?  without straying into domination.  What kind of practical advice could you give for someone who  wants to apply that and realize that there's those powers behind the powers, but also not try to dominate when they control?  It's not the church's role to dominate, something that I  wanted to point out,  because  sometimes when we talk about spiritual warfare, we really get wrapped up in that. the power of Christ, which yes, he is power. And we can, we have his authority on earth. But to this questioner's question, I guess, first, maybe just a little bit of caution. I don't know who submitted this and then sometimes personal relationship helps. I would give just a little bit of pastoral caution when I read this question. Give us some practical advice on how we go about you know, bringing justice, you know, in the face of the world. Practical,  great. Everybody wants practical.  Sometimes that is a,  I just want to make sure that, and maybe this isn't there, but behind it, there's not a uh insistence that we take action, that there must be action that we can go and do. ah I have to do something. And sometimes we don't. Sometimes we do. So just... practical sometimes as a,  but what do I go do? Because there are  bad things happening in the world and I have to, I just feel burdened to go and take action. So first and foremost, the point of Wilson's to make sure we understand and we are transformed by God's man of wisdom, which is the gospel. Now, that being the case, yeah, we haven't actually, there's not a whole lot in the New Testament that tells us how to go engage to transform the public square. And the reason is because it was written at a time when church, know, Christianity was very much a minority culture, had no standing, no authority, and even just in a political realm where there was not a democratic voice where people could say, oh, I think we should do things this way and not get just fed to lions. So we have, know, a unique time where I think the church does have the burden, the challenge.  the privilege to be able to speak in the public square to  bring about God's justice, I think was one of the ways that this pastor, that this person asked this question, which I love.  so, uh respect  where I say  responsibly, we should be looking at how do we go do that. So long lead up to how do we do that? Well, one, is I would insist on focusing on the positive.  Not  finding the positive in everybody out there. don't mean it that way. mean, turn and focus to the beauty and the good in God's Instead of this finger wagging at what you ought not to do, you centers out there or  this worldly power or  force or culture, um because that's really easy to do. But we believe that God is the creator of the world. He ordered it for a certain way. and that they the best were human time is the following design.  so focusing in on the good, I want good one by community. So  I don't want there to be injustices. want good. want there to be  everybody to have access to um flourishing. And so I don't want there to be corruption or robbery or, you know, money changing hands that's illegal. I want there to be flourishing. I want all people to be  enjoying life. And  I  know in the designer's playbook um that  no fault divorce and that  adultery and that um pursuing one's own,  just sexual desires without restraint. is not going to bring about happiness. It's not going to solve depression. It's not going to  come over and some of the pain that people have. And I want to end those pains. Right. I think focusing on the beauty and the good ah is probably my first and most practical advice. Okay. Yeah,  I think you're talking about some of that. think of just sometimes Christianity. mean,  this was true in the Roman Empire. uh And I think it's true in many of the world today where it actually thrives best when it's not the majority dominant culture.  Again, there's obviously difficulties with that, but uh when it becomes a dominant culture, there is something that sort of changes in that. a lot of times, mean,  there are some good things in that, but there are a lot of negatives that as well come with that. that's...  We have not wielded power ever. That's human. That's fallen human. Adam was designed to. We are supposed to. When we have authority, when we have been given power, in whatever capacity that is, we're to use it benevolently and self-sacrificially. And we usually are terrible at that. We really are. Christ is the only one who could. And he had ultimate power. All power and glory in the universe is whole. and knew what he needed to do with it. He went out.  Took it back up and put  it on the glory today as well.  We struggle.  Well, Nick, thank you so much for um your time here on the podcast and certainly all your time um preparing. And um it's not a small thing to get out before several hundred people and just  share. uh a sermon of that nature and um you know, you have an outside job and other things. So just really appreciate your uh service for our church in this time and uh the thoughts that you presented  to all of us  to think over. My pleasure. I really love to do it. It's a blessing to me as well. Okay. Well, we'll see you next week then, right?  No,  you'll see me October 26th. Okay. Well, within a few weeks. All right. Well, very good. All right. Well,  Nick, thanks again so much and we'll see you next time.  Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time.  If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following Sunday's sermon,  you can email them to podcast at faithchurchindie.com  or  text them in to our faith church texting number  and we'll do our best to cover them in next week's episode.  If this conversation blessed you in any way,  we encourage you to share it with others.  We'll be back again next week.