Hey. You're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the North side of Indianapolis. My name is Claire Kingsley. Each week, I'll sit down with one of our preaching pastors to discuss their Sunday sermon. Cut for time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday. Thanks for listening. Boom, baby. 1st cover time of the New Year. That's right. 2025. Yeah. Hey. Were you here the, the first Sunday of 2025? Were you guys here? Is that when Jeff preached? Yes. That was the the last Sunday of 2024. No. But the first Sunday of 2025, I talked about how Yes. 2025 is a big square year. It's a big round number, and it's a big square number. Yeah. So I'm I'm I'm living off of that one for a while. K. Well, it is it does feel good, but I feel like the last time we felt good, it was 2020. People were like, 20 20. It's our year, and then that Yeah. That Then that happened. That dumpster fire. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Don't say what's going on. You you're you were a math teacher at one point. Right? Yeah. Mhmm. So you would be proud of me, I think. Because when I was getting up a couple of Sundays ago to say and we didn't we didn't record cut for time for last week, so I didn't get a chance to share this. That 2025 is a big square year because big square number because it's the square of 45. 45 times 45 is 2,025. Right? Okay. And it and someone who the person who told me that, who is our treasurer, said it's not gonna happen again in our lifetimes. And I was like, okay. That's probably true. But what's the square of 46? And I didn't have my calculator with me or my phone or anything. So I was sitting on the platform thinking I'm about to say it won't happen again, but I I don't have the receipts. I can't prove it. So I was like, okay. How do you get from 45 times 45 to 46 times 46? Like, I was trying to do 46 times 46 in my head. And here's what hit me. I I already know what 45 squared is. It's 2025. So I can add 4546 to that number, and I'll get the square of 46. And it worked. Brilliant. Yeah. 21 16. We're jumping back into cupboard time, Acts, Acts 2021. And you preached the mob. Mhmm. This was a big story. This is, like, a barely I mean, like, we've been working up to this for, like, weeks before Advent. Like, we are, like, okay. We see Paul going to Jerusalem. We people are saying don't go. People you know, and we're, like, we all know something terrible is gonna happen, and then it was, like, that cliffhanger. And then here we start to, like, see this develop. So, I don't know. Do you wanna give us just a recap of how Yeah. Where we were and where we studied on Sunday and that kind of thing? Bring them together. Yeah. For sure. So where we were was we left Paul in Jerusalem. We left him with this plan of accompanying 4 other guys on a purification ritual, as a demonstrative way of showing, that he is still, he's still Jewish through and through. That, he's a follower of the Jewish Messiah, but that doesn't make him no longer Jewish. It doesn't make him a gentile. And, that's been the rumor is that, well, now that he's following Jesus and he's teaching other Jews that to follow Jesus means to forsake, being Jewish and which just isn't the case. He would, of course, want to say, no, there's a difference between getting rid of the law and fulfilling the law, and you guys aren't seeing the difference here. But, but that notwithstanding, like, the point wasn't, hey, let's put Paul up on a lecture circuit and try to explain this. It was, let's get Paul to do something that shows, and it didn't work. Right? So we have this great scene, great meaning just this hugely important scene in the temple courts where Paul is dragged out of the inner courts, to the outer court where he can be beaten to death for defiling the temple. There's just this feeling, the this long standing sense that, hey, if somebody defiles the temple, the holy place where god meets with his people, then the temple remains defiled until that person, it no longer exists. And so it's you can't just kick him out or, you know, extricate him from the from the surroundings or, excommunicate is the word I'm looking for. You can't just excommunicate him like he has to be killed, And their law provides for this. Right? So they're doing this, but it's during a festival. It's during the festivals of of Passover, Pentecost, in that time frame. And so there's just this heightened tension and heightened alert on behalf or on the part of the Roman authorities. They like, their job is to make sure nothing gets out of hand when the city is just crammed with people. Yeah. So as soon as the the noise reaches their ears, they're like, we're shutting this down. They come running down. They grab you know, the the crowd retreats. They grab Paul. They they arrest him immediately. Right? Where there's smoke, there's fire. They wouldn't be beating him if he hadn't done something. So they arrest him. They start to try to figure out what's going on. It's chaos. They try to haul him out. The crowd jumps forward trying to kill Paul while they get the chance, and, they they they basically make their way back up the stairs and get Paul out. And and that's where there's this great turn in the story that Jeff gets to talk about next week where Paul basically stops them, and he's like, wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Can I address the crowd? And I'm like, you're crazy. We didn't get there this week, but what, what I wanted to spend our time on in the sermon this last weekend was okay, this is just it's a huge turning point in the story. It's a turning point in the history of the church. It's a turning point in Paul's ministry. Right? He has he risked his entire evangelism and church planting ministry on bringing a financial gift to the poor in Jerusalem and reconciling, you know, building relationship with, the leaders there. Huge risk, huge downside if it doesn't go well, and it doesn't go well. Mhmm. And yet it was part of God's plan, and he had a plan and a calling for Paul to preach the gospel before kings, not just Jews and Gentiles. And, that's what we're gonna see play out in the last couple of chapters. So what's happening is actually a fulfillment of Acts 8, his calling to preach the gospel before kings, and even more than that from the very beginning, from chapter 1 of the gospel going from Jerusalem to Judea to Samaria to the ends of the earth, you know, us getting to see the gospel go to Rome, in the person of Paul and his preaching. Mhmm. Yeah. So so this week, it it was about the crisis and crisis moments. And crises, of course, bring up converse bring up questions all the time. Right? Every crisis brings up questions. And so I was trying to get to get us to think about, like, crises, you know, they make us ask questions like, what What are you doing, God? What's what's the point? What am I supposed to learn from this? Or why? Why are you allowing this to happen? You know, what did I do? Why are you punishing me? When we should perhaps be asking questions more along the lines of, okay, where are you sending me? Who are you sending me to? Where should I be going with the gospel now? Crises, they don't change our calling, but they might change the direction of our calling into a a new area or a new ministry. Mhmm. Yeah. I like that application. And, also, we have the Holy Spirit to discern. Right. They did not yet receive the Holy Spirit. Right. Yep. And so that's certainly part of it too. Yeah. Yeah. But it's maybe it's a lesson to us at least in, like, the scary sides of group think and the ability to be swayed by a crowd. You know, one comment I made, just kind of in passing, but I remember pulling it from a leadership book a while ago. It just says, when people don't have enough information or all the information, they will interpret whatever information they do have to the level of their pathology, I think is the original quote. Like, it's to the level of their unhealth or dysfunction. Right? So when you don't have very much information, whatever info you have, you're going just by human nature, you're gonna interpret it in the most suspicious way possible. Yeah. And so what the Jerusalem leaders had hoped for was that people who have heard these rumors would see Paul in the temple and think, oh, he must have purified himself in order to be here and, like, he really is, you know, he really is a good guy. Instead, they hear the rumors, see him in the temple and think, oh, he must be defiling this place because we know he's a bad guy. It's like, well, yeah, you're gonna interpret the the data. It's the same data interpreted, suspiciously, because it's primed for that suspicion, I guess. Mhmm. Yeah. Is there anything else that you had to cut for the sake of time? Oh, I have a thought. Go for it. Alright. I was gonna This is great. You're interrupting yourself instead of me interrupting you all the time. Well, okay. So something overheard the first sermon service or first service sermon being played downstairs and just an uproar of laughter. And we all stopped. We were like, we have never heard first service laugh that loud. And then it kept going, and it continued. It did. So I'm like, this is great. I can't wait for 2nd service sermon. I'm gonna be there during Joey's opening, and I'm gonna hear what is so hilarious, and then it never came. So what did you cut between What? Over the second hour? What did you change? You know, what is making me think is I should, every every week during 1st hour, say, okay. On on the count of 3, we're all gonna just laugh uproariously so people will be on time to 2nd hour just to like, maybe that's the the breakthrough that we need. No. Oh, man. I do you you know how sometimes, in a conversation or something, you can be saying something and as you're saying it, you're like, oh, no. I can't get those words back. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you're clawing for them and it's not working. So first hour, I would I started the same way with, hey, does anybody know what, main character syndrome is? Right? And there were, like, 4 people that raised their hands. I was like, this is totally cool. Like, it's a social media term, so, like, I'm not surprised. Like, we know who in the room now. We know who's on social media. So, and I was kind of explaining what it was, and it's the sense that you're, yeah, you're just, like, always, you know, thinking the the the highlight, everybody's your audience, you know, all that stuff. And somebody, like, on my right hand side, 4, 5 rows in, just shouted out the word narcissism. And I talked to the person afterwards, and she was just, like, trying to translate, you know, like, yeah, you're saying main character syndrome. And, like, in this room, we would all understand this narcissism. And so she says, you mean narcissism? I was like, yeah. You know, it overlaps with probably some actual clinical, syndromes, you know, even though this one's made up. And I was like, but hey, well, I mean, at least now we know who the main character in the room is. Oh. No. Right? At huge laughter. And then I was like I looked right at her and I was like, I am so sorry. I should not have made that joke. It was right there. I couldn't resist. I should have resisted. I'm so sorry. Hey, which more laughter. Oh, that's disappointing. I'm cringing. You're cringing. I know. I know. See, I told I told Nathan. I told your husband this, and he is like, I he's like, I'm so uncomfortable right now. So it was I mean, it was a great bonding moment for all of us. And I talked to the person afterwards. She was like, that was hilarious. That was so funny. Great. So Yeah. It's a good first hour bonding. You need a 1 Mhmm. You get 1 a year. You get 1 a year. One like, oh, I just turned into an insult comic. I'm so sorry. Oh. So I was told I needed to plant somebody second hour to do that. You know, find someone who, who would be willing to just, you know, inter interact and and then, pull the same thing on on them. But, no. I I did not. I was like, I don't know if you can catch lightning in a bottle the second time. Mhmm. Mhmm. Also and, you know, I don't want people to think that we actually ever fabricate those kind of moments. You know? Right. Right. We don't fake the but We don't fake authentic audience moments. Yes. Yeah. Now when we some say something dumb, it's on accident. It's rarely on purpose. Yes. Fragrant symbolism. Fragrant. Very fragrant. Yes. Special second service. That was special to second service. If you were not in second service, I misspoke and said fragrant ban instead of flagrantly fragrantly flagrantly breaking the ban on whatever. And then yeah. So Anything else that you had to cut? Because that was not a real thing. I'm sorry. That was not a real thing. Well, you know, if I had more time and and I probably could have cut stuff from the sermon to include it, I might have talked a little bit about, like, our own personal crises. I think the crises are things that my wife and I have gone through and how it sent us in different ministry directions, whether it's with a different audience or different group of people. Right? Without, like, without our infertility stuff and struggles there, we wouldn't have a ministry with people who are struggling with infertility or who have suffered through miscarriages or something like that. So those are crises. They raise a lot of questions like, god, why are you doing this? They don't change the calling even if they do change the direction of the calling. So probably should have, could have included, something more personal along those lines as well. Mhmm. I appreciate that. Well, we've got one more question that's been hanging out because somebody was, listening to cover time catching up while we were on break. So this is, not directly from our text, but it is something that's kind of come up a few times over the last few months of cut for time, which is, you were you've talked a few times about the core doctrines of the Christian faith that are common to all believers. 1 Bible, 2 testament, 3 creeds, 4 councils. 5 yeah. In 5 5 centuries. 5 centuries. Okay. Yeah. And yet we have a lot of denominations, Christian denominations. Yes. And this person says this is specifically difficult for their Muslim friends to, like, wrap their head around of, like, how could we have one Lord and one faith and one baptism and have all of these denominations. Mhmm. So can you discuss the historical underpinnings of our core doctrines and then explain how we can have all these different denominations and yet have core beliefs at the same time? Yes, man. It's a great question. So most, theologians will well, so the topic the the title of of the topic we're talking about is, is basically the basically the hierarchy of doctrines. Like, what is absolutely core and essential, what's secondary, and what's periphery. So most theologians will will break up doctrines into 3 kind of strata of of core, secondary, and periphery or or primary, secondary, tertiary, you know, whatever, they'll they'll use or, like absolute, debatable, and discussable or something along those lines. Our our own EFCA's doctrinal statement does the same thing in that it tries to put, in the doctrinal statement only those beliefs which are core, primary, at the center. Right. And, we talk about the significance of silence, which is to say we don't take positions on things that are secondary and tertiary, so because those are open for debate and discussion. So the of course, the problem is, different people disagree about what's primary, what's secondary, and and what's what's tertiary. And so, general consensus is, well, if it is core to the gospel, core to what it means to be who who God is, who Jesus is, who the Holy Spirit is, what it means to be human, what sin is, and what salvation is. If it's core to those things, it's gotta be that's, like, that's at the center. Right? So we are gonna I'm gonna say, like, hey, if somebody says Jesus isn't really God, or there there's one God but not 3 persons, or well, sin's really not that big of a deal. It's not like Jesus really need to save us from anything. I'm gonna be like, hey. You are outside, like, the core of what it means to be Christian or what CS Lewis would call mere Christianity, like, the the core of it. But if if we wanna debate about the mode of baptism, well, that's secondary. Right? We need to make some decisions on it so that we can just run a church, but it's secondary. Right? We don't we really don't need to, divide over it necessarily. So different theologians, different denominations will stress different things. They'll make some secondary items primary. They'll make some primary items secondary, and all of those different variations cause people to kinda splinter into different groups. Now some of our listeners may know that the EFCA in our doctrinal statement, we had a secondary issue in our doctrinal statement, which was, the premillennial return of Jesus. So our doctrinal statement said that we believe in the, the bodily pre I'm gonna get the wording exactly wrong, but we believe in the pre millennial return of Jesus, which is a specific view about end times and what happens at the very end of everything. And we we removed we voted in 2019, I think, to remove the word pre millennial and replace it with the word glorious because the fact that Jesus will return for his people is core. The timing of when or how or what comes first and second when Jesus returns for his people is not core. Yeah. Right? So that's one of those those, those options. Now the only way to maintain, unanimity or, you know, across what we believe is core, secondary, and tertiary is is to have what's called a magisterial approach to scripture, which is to say that there is there is some, there is some body of leaders that decide for all other body all other believers what scripture is exactly saying and what it's not saying. So this is the traditional Roman Catholic approach, the magisterium, the the pope, and the authorities say this is doctrine. This is what we believe. Protestants protested against that and said, the magisterium has been wrong so much that we need to go back to earlier interpretations, strip off all of the stuff that's been added to it, and that has created, what is then sometimes called a ministerial a ministerium, which is to say each of us is our own authority over what we think scripture is teaching and what is primary, secondary, and tertiary. So part of the the the reason we'll say things like 1 bible, 2 testaments, 3 creeds, 4 councils, 1st 5 centuries is a way of saying, hey. Here's the here's the magisterium. Here's the the external descriptor authority that says this is the correct right in Christian way of reading the Bible, but without extending that all the way through time to where there's also we're saying right now, and here's everything you have to believe on every primary, every secondary, every tertiary belief. So what I would say, I I'd I've not had any direct interactions with Muslims about this particular question and the problem of Christian denominational, denominations. I would simply say that, hey, there is a core of what Christians have believed that all, all believers everywhere at all times have have agreed on. We find that distilled in those 3 creeds, those first couple of councils, and everything everything else is commentaries on it, and discussions and disagreements and agreements and alliances on other on other issues. But that part of the gift of denominations is that it, it allows the the broad diversity of people across the world to express from their own cultural points of view and perspectives, the the differing things that they value and stress and and and emphasize or minimize. And having that whole wide diversity of people and experiences all reading scripture and seeing different facets of the same thing allows anyone with the the time and the inclination to step back from their own, cultural location and experience and and see, see scripture more broadly than they possibly could if there were a single magisterium from a single cultural perspective and viewpoint saying this is the right and only way, to interpret scripture. Now on the core doctrines, absolutely. Right? We are bound by the the the doctoral statement is the guardrails within which, we can run. Yeah. But we get to discuss, and learn from such a variety of experiences in all other areas. So I do see it as a strength even if a lot of denominations are created simply because fallen humans couldn't agree that they might couldn't face the fact that they might be wrong or decide that fellowship is more important than, doctrinal fidelity at the 3rd level. Mhmm. Yeah. That's really interesting that you say it that you see it as a strength, and I appreciate that perspective because just as you're talking and yeah. I don't have interactions with many Muslims to, like, say that that would be an area that would be difficult for them to, like, wrap their heads around. But I even just think conversations with my friends who are non believers who are like, well, like, what? Who's to say your way? Your tradition is the right tradition or whatever. And then does it just come down to, like, your own personal flare? Should it really come down to that? No. You know? So, like, just Right. It doesn't feel like a strength all the time. That's all I'm gonna say. So, like, I appreciate that perspective. And I it leads me to ask you, like, have you ever had somebody who's maybe a believer or not believer, but they're asking you, like, oh, you're a Christian? Like, what kind of Christian are you? Like, what kind of denomination? Like, what denomination do you belong to? I've had that question asked me many times. Like, what do you say? Is it important to you personally that there's, like, that distinguish thing, like, factor made for somebody who's asking you? Like, do you feel like you need to tell them? And or does that, like, take away from the essentials? So I ask because, like, I used to say, like, back in college, people would ask me all the time. Right? I'm like, oh, I don't know. I mean, like, I had just found the faith back then. So I'm like, nondenominational. I don't know. People don't really know what that is. I'm like, but I'm not Baptist. I'm not this. I don't know. And then Mhmm. Someone somewhere along the way, I heard them say, like, I'm a Bible believing Christian. Like, I just I don't know. I just believe the Bible. And so that to see to me seemed like strip away all of the dividing, like, factors and just, like, bring unity. I'm just curious how you would respond to that. Yeah. I would probably say and I have said in the past, like, I I I'll say something like, I don't know if this word will if this means anything or helps you, but I would call myself a classic Christian or historically orthodox Christian. And what I mean by that is so I'm not willing to say I'm a I'm a Bible believing Christian like that. Probably because the circles in which I grew up in, and came to faith in to say you were a bible believing Christian was a way of rejecting anything anyone told you the bible meant that you just didn't want to agree with, including the creeds or the councils. And so to say I'm I'm a classical Christian or historically orthodox Christian is to say that I think that the the creeds, the councils, the first 5 centuries have captured accurately the correct way to read scripture as a Christian. So what I want to say to someone is like, no, I'm a Christian Christian. That means, like, what the word means, which is someone who is within the historic stream of Christianity defined by the the creeds and the councils. But that is you know, Christian doesn't mean anything, so I'll say I'm a classic or historically orthodox and then try to explain what that means without putting them to sleep. Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Joey. That's all my questions for you. That was good. Thanks. Alright. It feels good to be back in the rhythm of cut for time. So Yeah. Much. Alright. Well, I won't see you next week. Jeff's up. Alright. He gets to preach Paul's, Paul's speech before an angry an angry crowd, an angry mob. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time. If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following their sermon, you can email them to podcast at faith, live it out dot org or text them into our faith church texting number. And we'll do our best to cover it in the week's episode. If this conversation blessed you in any way, we encourage you to share it with others. Thanks for listening. We'll be back again next week.