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Hey, you're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the north side of Indianapolis.  My name is Claire Kingsley.  And I'm Dan Breitwieser. Each week, one of us will sit down with the person who gave Sunday's sermon to discuss their message.  Cut for Time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation,  and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday. Thanks for listening. All right, well, welcome back to the latest episode of Cut for Time. And Pastor Jeff joining us  after uh looking at the secret um of looking at Ephesians chapter three, verses  one through six. so uh welcome back to the podcast. Thank you. I mean, you got lots of secrets for us. So let's talk what's the most embarrassing secret that you can possibly think of and share with us right now. Go.  Oh, yeah, no, you'd have to you can ask my wife a million about that. I'm sure she'll be glad to. She'll be glad to remind  you all of some embarrassing moments from my life. um I'm looking forward to maybe she can be a guest next week. But of course, that's not exactly the secret that we're talking about this week.  Why don't we  why you give a kind of just a brief overview of your sermon for this week? Yeah, Paul talks about this mystery, the secret, this uh insight that  had not previously been revealed, and I know we're going to talk about that before, that now has been revealed through God's apostles and prophets that the Gentiles are uh full members  of the community of God's people, members of his body, partakers  in Christ, along with the Jews. ah so the  sermon was really kind of an exploration of sort of that idea of why  is this a secret? What is the secret?  what is our role  in it  and  what differences it ended up making in our lives.  So we talked about, again, the core of this idea of a uh mystery.  And secret is, was a pretty good way to just sort of structure the message around, it's,  mystery might really be a better  translation. It's something that causes us to, you know, sort of. wonder  and be awed  and uh kind of overwhelmed and amazed  in a way that a  secret doesn't necessarily. uh But uh yeah, the idea being that  even though as Paul said in previous in the previous chapter, we as Gentiles by nature were without hope, without God in the world by nature,  alienated from Him children of disobedience, objects of wrath. Now, because of Christ, we've been brought in,  into the community of God's people.  And our part in that is not just to receive it, but then we are also the people  through whom that message goes out to draw others in to the saving knowledge of Jesus. So  our role is not just to receive it and believe it and keep it for ourselves, but  just as Paul sees himself as  prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of us Gentiles.  In the same way, the message has been entrusted to us. And so our lives are no longer just about ourselves, but about serving others and inviting others into this amazing  mystery secret that God has revealed in Christ. And that changes our lives. It changes our priorities. It changes our perspective on ourselves and on others,  and it may even cause problems for us. mean, Paul ended up in prison for the sake of the gospel.  Attempt to help us  experience some more of that awe and wonder and amazement that we've been included in the people of God. uh Secondly, to help us recognize our part  in not just receiving, but communicating that and then be aware of the difference that's going to make  in us and through us.  I think um it's a secret that changes us.  It's not just a  little bit of information that's like, well, that's really interesting trivia. Next time I go and they ask this  in a bar trivia night, uh now I'll know the answer to what national park has the most visitors or something like that. mean, this is a secret that should  change  us  in a number of ways. And I think  I really liked how you started the sermon thinking through like What are the things that you just can't help but keep to yourself  because you're just excited? is it, the, you know, I can think of some, you know, I spent a summer working at Yellowstone National Park and I can tell you some of the  hikes and I'm like, oh man, if you go there, like you've got to do this thing, know, things like that, you know, just that you get excited, you know, it's your favorite restaurant. It's  your, else that you would really recommend that you just,  whether you're invited to or not, you're going to share because just know that you have some information that is relevant and is helpful and they may not choose to do anything with it. you know, that that's that  I think that's kind of what you're trying to get at with being an evangelist for that. Am I getting that right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So what other things are you an evangelist for? I want to hear from you, Dan.  Well, you know, there's a few things. uh My wife and I are both fans of Weird Al Yankovic. He's just he's an underappreciated musical genius. We've seen him in concert probably three or four times. And he's just  he also apparently is just like a genuinely nice guy, as well as being really entertaining and goofy and funny. And uh yeah. So  the Princess Bride is. uh Maybe one of the best movies ever.  We love The Princess Bride. ah So, yeah, we encourage everyone  to watch it. um What about you? Well, oh I mean, I could be an evangelist for a lot of things, and that's why I was probably convicting thinking through um what are the, you know, what are the things that I don't, you know, hold back on my opinions for? um I know. have to think. That's a good.  It's a good question. I don't know that I have.  That's a good one. It's a good one for us to reflect on.  Like what are the things that I'm just super excited to talk to people about?  And where does Jesus fall in that scale? Yeah. Yeah. And I will say you're correct. Weird Al is a very nice guy. He's come to the stations to, you know, uh you know, promo an upcoming concert or things like that. And yes, he is a genuinely nice human being. ah That's, yeah, so you're you're correct in that. Good. All right. Well, I think the let's chat next about just what you know, what are some of the things or what thing did you cut as a result of your sermon as we're talking about this, the secret. And we have a couple of questions to get. Yeah, there's just a couple of things, not any really huge things, but just one of one of the commentaries that I read pointed out this really interesting kind of almost cool irony that Paul is  in chains  for the sake of the Gentiles. He says that the whole arrest and imprisonment  started with him remember being falsely accused of bringing a Gentile into the temple precincts, right? Like  the whole riot thing in the book of Acts  that we saw back in Jerusalem. was Paul actually being falsely accused of having brought a Gentile into the temple,  which he hadn't, but that was the whole accusation. They got the mob started and then got him, you know, brought into the Roman garrison and then taken off to Caesarea and eventually shipped off to Rome.  So there's just this kind of  unique, interesting connection there that Paul is willing to be imprisoned  for the sake of carrying the gospel to Rome and to the Gentiles, even though ironically the whole thing that started this was him  wrongly being accused of,  you know, and being connected with Gentiles  in, you know, in the center of Jewish religious worship. It's just like kind of an interesting little point. There's like, yeah, that's right. The whole thing started, even though his heart was for the Gentiles.  He didn't bring a Gentile. He was very sensitive to Jewish concerns and ritual purity and everything. So he hadn't gone out of his way to offend them. yeah,  so it's  kind of  for the sake of you Gentiles almost has maybe a little hint of a double meaning there.  And then when we started in Ephesians about the fact that, you know, a little bit of uncertainty about the nature of the letter, whether it was...  really written just for the people in Ephesus. Maybe it was a circular letter because it  can sound like in a couple of places. Maybe Paul doesn't really know these people that well, but he lived in Ephesus for a year and a half, two years and planted the church there.  And in this passage, he mentioned, you know, surely you have heard of the  stewardship, the administration of the gospel that was entrusted to me.  Which again  leads some to think that well, maybe Paul doesn't really know these people and and that's possible. It may be a circular letter  But it's also possible that Paul is realizing he's now writing back to this church ten years after he's been there So he could just have in mind, you know He's writing to a group of people that maybe even the majority of them were not believers  When Paul was there ten years ago? And so he's writing to a congregation in Ephesus that includes people that he knows and people that don't know him at all. So that could simply just be a reference to the fact that the church has grown and changed and brought in people who don't know about the story of Paul.  just  interesting kind of note. it's, you know, it's not worth really getting into in a sermon because it does, it's not,  you know, really germane to the main point of the passage, but it's, it's know, just sort of a little interesting historical note for uh commentators and, you know, New Testament profs to argue over. Okay, I like it.  Obscure arguments are always fun. uh Oh, yeah.  One thing I was going to thinking about with this is disconnected to the use of the word mystery. um And I think, you know, there's kind of the, you know, I know not to be dangerous in this,  when it comes to, you know, Gnostics and some of the culture of 2000 years ago where there's this secret knowledge that you have to, you you gain entry into and I think there may be some relevant parallels in today's day and age with some, you know, multi-level marketing, perhaps I'm not going to use specific names, but you know, where you  start as a lower level and you you know, usually spend money to, you know, get up to a higher net level of knowledge. You know, you're working your way up until you have the, you know, the ultimate thing. And of course that is never a free thing. um And so do you think, is there something there maybe in this passage that Paul's talking about to sort of refute that common  idea or just that commonplace thing in that culture where, you know, there'd be, you know, people out in um you know, marketplace and you had to pay to learn, you know, like those types of things. so  in this case, Paul's saying, you know, this, this mystery is this, like, I'm telling you, it's, know, you don't need to pay me. This, this is just, this is the mystery. um And do you think there's  something there? Yeah, that's, that's an interesting one. uh I think, uh Probably not.  I don't think you're off track there  because it is an open  subject of discussion how much this  Gnosticism, which just comes from the Greek word gnosis, which means knowledge. And so uh in various ways, both from the surrounding Greek culture and then ultimately later as sort of a pseudo Christian heresy,  developed this idea that   You know, there's sort of this,  like you said, a hidden secret knowledge that the really advanced followers will have that isn't  available to just, you know, uh ordinary garden variety believers. And it's a debate, uh kind of debatable question, how much that was really developed  as a pseudo-Christian heresy at what point. how early that came into the church. I think there's reason to believe that there were elements of that certainly in the surrounding culture. I that was  an element of Greek philosophy to an extent  and uh Greek cultic religions uh as you kind of pointed out that, you you progress to the inner circle, so to speak, through rights or through money or whatever it is.  I  don't know  that there's much   other evidence  in  the book of Ephesians, for example, that that's a particular concern  for Paul at this point. ah It seems  maybe that John is alluding to that more in some of his  epistles,  which  were written later than  Paul's letters. um So  yeah,  I don't know. It doesn't seem to be a particular concern of Paul here.  There's a suggestion it may have been more of a concern in his letter to the Colossians, uh where he's  maybe even dealing more directly with heresies about the person and the nature of Christ  and uh pointing out the  exalted nature of Christ. um Yeah, that's an interesting one. um Well, hey, I can be wrong. It's just where I'm thinking about things. That's where I sort of automatically go. So good to know. And again, it's a good, you know, it's again, it's just a good opportunity to be reminded and to be encouraged that there isn't some secret inside knowledge for us as Christians. Yes, we can always and we will always grow more and more in our understanding and our understanding of God and the nature of Jesus' sacrifice for us and understanding more of what it means to know and walk with Him.  you know, I think it's been well said versions of, the gospel is so simple that a five-year-old can understand it, and at the same time so profound that we will spend the rest of our lives in eternity plumbing its depths.  But there's no  secret next level  to get to that's not available to all of us. through scripture and the work of the Spirit. So  be encouraged, ah know, anyone who's listening that, ah no, there's no inner circle that you need to get to. If you have Christ, you have what you need.  And if you are in Christ, you are as close  as you ever need to be,  because you are in, if you are in Christ. And that  is truly good news. is truly wonderful things. All right, well, we have two questions. The first question kind of relates to this, but I will just make a little plug here. I was talking with someone who was like, I'd like to maybe throw in a question, but I don't know how to do that. I'm like, well, let me tell you how to do this. So what I'd encourage, again, I'm always looking for more questions as we do this week after week. I know Claire is as well. It's as simple as taking a look at the screen during the sermon. There's that like, got a question, know, and that there's that faith. I think it's an 855 number. And so you just type in that number to your phone. You could put, you know, cut for time colon, and then just throw in your question. You can do it in the middle of the sermon or, you know, if you want to think through how do you want to phrase things or whatever, you know, think through, maybe come back to that. You know, sometimes I leave myself a little bit of a note in the middle of a Sunday morning of that. And I, you know, come back to it when I'm watching the Colts game later that day or whatever with a, you know,  that message that goes to the top of my  text messages. So love to see that. And  we do record a lot of times on Monday, sometimes on Tuesday. So just getting it in by Sunday night, make sure that  we're able to see it. m Pastor Jeff, in this case, has a chance to maybe look at it and  come up with a good answer rather than one that's on the spot. And  just helps  advance  the conversation and know that the question you have is probably one that five, 10, 20, maybe 50 other people have. And so I really appreciate the people that, you know, take the time to think through those things and realize that you probably are giving voice to a question that  others may have. So  with that in mind.  Please, we love it. Yes, absolutely. questions the better. So two questions. And this first one kind of connects to that sort of mystery that we're talking about.  As in Paul says in verse five, um  the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men and other generations as it has now been revealed. uh And then this person just kind of points out some,  the question is, is there some tension between what Paul says here and what is said in other places in scripture? And specifically, they're looking at uh John chapter five, verse 39, which I'll read here that you... diligently study the scripture because you think by them you possess eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about me." And also Luke 24 27, which says, and beginning with Moses and all the prophets, uh this is Jesus, explained to them what was said in all the scriptures concerning himself. So,  is there a tension here, Pastor Jeff,  you know, Jesus and, you know, his know, redemptive work and his mystery, you know,  is it a mystery? Was it not a mystery, you know, leading up to it?  What would, how would you, oh how would you characterize that? Yeah, that's a really good question. Good, good way to put that, uh that verse together with, uh you know, other New Testament passages and  how we see Jesus and how we see his.  apostles referring back to all the Old Testament prophecies that Christ fulfilled and all the promises. uh So one, I think it's helpful for us to remember that we look at the Bible through what we could call progressive revelation ah in the sense that  all the way back in Genesis, we have the promise of  a deliverer who's going to come through a seed of the woman. And then we get more information as we go along about what this Redeemer is going to look like and how he's going to deliver and how he's going to save. And yet,  predominantly—so,  one,  it's progressively unfolding  as  God speaks through his people and to his people and unfolds his plan ultimately in the person of his son Jesus. And through the Old Testament, then, two, yes, there were all kinds of promises  and uh visions and prophecies about what the Messiah would do and what he would look like. And at the same time, remember that  almost nobody  who saw Jesus actually got it, right? It was uh through the work of  the Holy Spirit coming to  help them understand all that they had seen in Christ  and  all that  he was as the fulfillment of those promises. But then also beyond that,  I think what Paul's maybe even more directly getting at here is while there certainly were Old Testament promises  about the Messiah being a light to the Gentiles and  salvation going to the ends of the earth, as we talked about,  there really was not a clear picture in the Old Testament of the Gentiles being fully included into the people of God.  as we now see that happening in the New Testament. And remember, that was even particularly one of the biggest sticking points, not just for the religious leaders of Pharisees who were opposing Jesus, but even to his own disciples.  Remember Jesus talking with the Samaritan woman at the well,  and the disciples come back from going in town to get some food, and they're like, wait a minute, what are you doing talking to a Samaritan?  And the... uh There was another, I'm  trying to remember. uh I'm obviously doing this off the cuff. I did prepare some, but I'm ad libbing a little here. uh Then the Phoenician woman. mean, that she was the Syrophoenician. Yes. Thank you. The Syrophoenician woman who comes and touches the centurion too. Yes. The centurion and ah Jesus is ah we're getting more and more understanding here  of the Gentiles being  invited in in ways that  God's people who were thoroughly versed in the Scriptures just could not make sense of because it just wasn't as explicit.  Then when Peter, remember, uh has this vision and acts of this sheep being lowered from heaven and all these unclean animals and the Lord saying, arise Peter, kill and eat, and  then the men from uh Cornelius' house show up to have him  come to  an unclean Gentiles' home. Peter  is able to finally put it together and say, now I understand that God is calling all people to Jesus, and I'm not to call people unclean whom God has called clean. So I think that's really at the center of what  Paul has in mind here, uh that yes, uh God had said the Messiah is going to be a savior to the nations, he's going to be a light to the Gentiles, but I think there was still this  almost implicit understanding  or interpretation of God's people that, yeah, but there's still going to be a distinction, right? Like, you still—and remember, that was even the debate in the early church—do you have to become a Jew first to become a follower of Jesus? Because how could you be part of the people of God if you're not a Jew? That just, like, that category doesn't even exist. And so I think that's what Paul is referring to, this mystery that  as Again, from the book of Acts, we saw the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 wrestling through this and saying, no, no, the Gentiles do not have to become Jewish in order to be the people of God. They are the people of God through faith in Christ. And that's the amazing mystery that Paul is saying that God had not really revealed to his people in ages past, but now has made clear through his prophets and apostles in the New Testament era that God has in fact torn down these dividing walls of hostility and we are all equal and on same footing in Christ. I think of that in that tension. I think of like Revelation right now. I mean, there so many debates about what does Revelation look like and you know, is it literal? Is it figurative? it know, what is this? What is that? I you can I mean, libraries are written about what this is and people,  think,  I would say I have a little bit of amusement about how they can be absolutely certain about how this is going to unfold. um And you mean the book of Revelation? Yeah, in terms of that  I know with absolute certainty, it's going to be whatever and how could you even possibly think that it's going to be that bad? That's ridiculous.  But I also, with absolute certainty, feel like at some point in the future, I'm going to be able to look back and I'll be able to read Revelation and go, ah, I didn't know that's how that was going to work. mean, I think we're all going to have that. so now it makes sense. Right. Exactly. And I think  maybe that's the same sort of tension that people in Jesus's day had or before Jesus had in terms of. This is absolutely true. Right. Like, oh, is this actually going to work? And then you're like, oh, I did not see that one coming.  Even, you know, I think about the  Jesus after His resurrection walking with the disciples on the road to Emmaus,  and they're, you know, they're saying,  oh, you know, we thought He was going to be the chosen one, but now it's been three days since He died. And  Jesus  says, oh oh, foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe, do you not understand that the Messiah had to suffer?  and going through the scriptures, he showed them how the Messiah had to suffer and die and be raised again. So even something that was in the Old Testament, God's people had a hard time understanding and making sense of in light of what they'd seen in Jesus. And now this is even uh in a sense a stage beyond that, like because it wasn't even just explicitly clear. that the Gentiles are going to be on equal footing with the Jews. I mean, if anything, it's well, sure, maybe they'll become proselytes and they'll be, you know, they'll eventually be circumcised and then they'll be part of the people of God. But no  idea at all that just simply being a Gentile and  believing in the Messiah and following him would make you part of the people of God.  that's the right, like that's the amazing. That's the thing that we  should not get over the amazement of.  that we actually have a full share in everything that the Savior has to give  simply  as Gentiles, which is just, wow, that's amazing. Yeah. And we also have the extra faith and confidence based on looking back to Jesus and seeing those plan works that others didn't get the same, you know. Yes. Yeah. So, all right. Well, thanks for talking about that. question. Here's the other question for you, Pastor Jeff. This person brings up Revelation 2-4, which kind of says, "'Yet I hold this against you, you who have forsaken your first love.'" Have we, or have each of us individually, gotten at a balance with more of a focus on biblical doctrine, like the Ephesian church in Revelation, as opposed to compassion and having love for the lost, have donations to missionaries, to reach people  who need to hear God's good news, eased our conscience or my conscience from not reaching out to the people right next to me who need Jesus. What say you, Pastor Jeff? ah Those are some excellent questions to wrestle with.  Obviously right, it's just sort of reflective questions ah that  I thank you for sending. those questions in, because I  think those are good questions for us to wrestle with.  The questioner is looking forward to the book of Revelation where the Spirit,  where Jesus is sending messages to the churches  of Asia Minor in that day, in John's day, and to the church of Ephesus. He says,  you have forsaken or forgotten your first love, their love for Him, their love, you know, the first love of love the Lord your God and love your neighbors yourself. And so they're strong on doctrine, they're strong on truth, but somehow they've fallen out of love, uh misplaced their love in some way.  And yeah, so the question,  wow, that  is  apparently a possibility for a church of Jesus or for the followers of Jesus to end up in a place like that.  And how do I make sure that I'm not?  I'm not slipping into that.  yeah, the second question, has my  giving to support the gospel going out overseas eased my conscience from not being as engaged in  my reaching out to the people right next to me who  need to hear the message that God's entrusted to me? Man, those  are great questions.  And  obviously, I think we can only answer that for ourselves  individually. uh But I think those are the kinds of things that uh really thoughtful uh engagement with Scripture and reflection ah were led to wrestle with those kinds of questions. So kudos for asking the question.  That's  great.  And the only thing I would say to that is uh let's also remember that the things that God cares about are whole lives.  and we may go through seasons and ups and downs. uh So  I would just say to  not beat ourselves up too much  and to recognize that, man,  God has a whole lifetime to work on me and I want to be continually available and open  and  humble and listening to what God is saying. uh So... Those are great questions that should not lead us  on a guilt trip, but should lead us to  a humble reflection and maybe a rededication of ourselves and our focus and our efforts.  Yeah, what does it mean to uh lose my first love? uh Yeah, that's a good question to wrestle with. I think in general, you know, we can say things like, well, I've got the right beliefs about God, but... uh  Do I actually, am I actually excited and thankful and worshipful in my relationship? Do I actually have an ongoing relationship with Jesus Christ in which I'm talking to him and he's speaking to me through his words and I'm seeking to be shaped by him and I'm  even making it a part of my prayer that I would grow in love for him and not just in knowing things about him.  Because I think that's probably  what's going on there in that church in Ephesus in the book of Revelation to have forgotten your first love is,  yeah, you're maybe even doing the right things and you say you believe the right things, but  I'm not sure your heart is in it or I'm not sure you're maybe even doing it for the right motives. That makes sense. And  that's a good question for us to wrestle with. And I think it kind of goes back to your idea of  what are we an evangelist for? we're just an evangelist for the right set of doctrines, then we've missed the point too, right? I mean, we need to be an evangelist for the right reason for it. know, it's the love of Jesus that calls us. so, you know, Christian culture in Christian or Christendom, perhaps, maybe a better way of saying it, you we can be so focused on what is your view on Revelation and  or something like that, or, um you know, with the recent political events or something, we can be so focused on this specific doctrine that we make into a  major thing,  may be a major thing,  you know, as I was talking with Pastor John last week, maybe not.  so, you  how do we, you know,  that love, you can't lose your first love. And when you're You know, love, mean, when it comes out of a genuine love as a reflection of how you've been loved first, that minimizes the doctrine and it changes your attitude and demeanor and your infectiousness m as you're sharing. uh you know, that's, think that infectious love is something that people can't deny.  Doctrines are really easy to argue with, but infectious love. I mean, you can say, yeah, you know, that maybe thing isn't for me, but like, wow, look at that person. They really love Jesus. I mean, that's something you just  that that's an evangelist that I think we should all aspire to be. Wow.  Thank you for that, Dan. That is, man, I really appreciate that. That's a great way to connect that back to the discussion, too, about.  church in Ephesus and lost their first love, they got the right doctrine. And man, that we can do that sometimes too, right? As Christians, we can  almost get in a place where we love our doctrine more than we love Jesus. And the doctrine is supposed to be about and we'll defend the doctrine and the system and the  perspective on maybe a secondary debatable issue and  make that such a huge thing that  the way we often end up articulating and arguing for and evangelizing for and defending those things  doesn't really demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit.  You know, so that maybe that's even part of what  is behind Jesus words to that church, right? Like you you're zealous for the truth, but maybe not in a loving and gracious way. And so what have you really won at that point? Yeah, what what am I an evangelist for?  And uh Where does Jesus fit in that? um I as  zealous for Jesus? I would say, you know, the love of God and love of neighbor going together means ah as maybe as I'm growing in maturity and hopefully some humility around my own, you know,  doctrinal distinctives or preferences that  I  love the church of God and I love the people of God. more than I love my take on  particular doctrines or issues.  And so  that becomes reflective of  loving Jesus more than I love my doctrines, because I love people who disagree with me  on certain doctrines that I think are super important. Yeah. May that be true of  all of us. So I agree. Thank you, Pastor Jeff. ah Thank you for  Your time today for sharing your secrets. I'll be sure to chat with your wife about the real secrets we can  talk about next week. Don't threaten me because I know where you live too,  Fair enough, fair enough. All right. Well, Pastor Jeff, again, thanks for your time on this time episode and  we'll catch you next week. All right.  Sounds good.  Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time.  If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following Sunday's sermon,  you can email them to podcast at faithchurchindie.com  or  text them in to our Faith Church texting number  and we'll do our best to cover them in next week's episode.  If this conversation blessed you in any way,  we encourage you to share it with others.  We'll be back again next week.