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Hey, you're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the north side of Indianapolis.  My name is Claire Kingsley.  And I'm Dan Breitwieser. Each week, one of us will sit down with the person who gave Sunday's sermon to discuss their message.  Cut for Time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation,  and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday. Thanks for listening. All right, hey Jeff, cut for time. Here we go. Hey Claire. feels like winter outside. I've got my tea. Won't feel like that way for long because I know the weather will get back up there. I took a picture yesterday morning. So my wife Amelia and I were out raking. We have big trees, which we love, but we raked up probably about 10, 12 eggs of leaves. And then the storm came, you know, when it was mid fifties on Saturday, storm came and then the next day there's like two inches of snow and then it's to be 70 again this weekend. So I guess we'll get the rest of the leaves up. Yeah. Welcome to the wild. I know. thought there's a chance that this is as much snow as we get, know, the biggest snowfall all year. Sometimes you don't get more than two inches and I'm like, and it happened in the beginning of November, which is wild, but you never know. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So Jeff, why don't you give us a quick recap from your sermon on Sunday about Just  living like Christ Yeah, so we looked at Ephesians 5 1 to 7 and pastor Tom had done a great job the week before taking us through the last part of chapter 4 and into these first couple of verses which is where we started this week because they are sort of transition bridging verses and and the key thought there that we built off of was  Uh, this call to imitate Christ, to walk in love as Christ loved us and gave himself for us. And then Paul goes actually to  then into this  next few passages, sort of like contrasting. Maybe like what the world thinks love can kind of look like, or some perversions of love that are actually about selfishness.  And so it's sort of the big idea was this,  uh, right? What Paul was from right? What Paul was saying. walk in love as Christ loved us and gave himself for us. So to be children of God and imitate him means we're going to live in a self-giving kind of love like Jesus instead of kind of a selfish love like the world. And so Paul explores some of what that looks like around immorality and impurity in our actions, our words, and gives us this, in fact, then even warning that remember, first of all,  That's not you anymore  that used to  sort of be what you were connected with what you were identified with but one that's not who you are your children of God and to remember that people that live this way are heading towards judgment and destruction because  it's a selfish  anti-god kind of life so  it's  and we said really the way that God helps us do this it seems so big and so right oh imitate God uh Paul says, ah none of these things, you all this immorality, none of it's appropriate for God's people, but instead thanksgiving. And what becomes the antidote towards, you know, the immorality and the impurity is gratitude and worship and reminding ourselves of what Jesus has done for us and who we are in him. So as we,  as we  give thanks to God, reflect on, meditate, remind ourselves what Jesus has done.  and who we are in him, that becomes  the motivation and the engine that fuels  walking like Jesus did.  OK, so you can you gave us the contrast between just like pursuing  what is good for the self and then like living selflessly, like what the world would say is  love and what Christ is saying is love.  And when it comes to like sexual immorality, you covered this a little bit in your sermon um about what that might  like look like in one's life  or how we might be tempted. But what about someone who just says like, hey, it's just  not hurting anybody. Like m it's um it's just me, like I'm  not hurting anyone  and it doesn't affect anybody else. Um, and we could justify it because it's hidden in secret and it's just our own bodies. What would you say to that? Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, I was trying to be a little careful, you know, knowing that we have often kids in worship and, uh, not wanting to, you know, raise questions that parents might, you know, want to handle on their own with their kids. But there's a lot to talk about here. Yeah. So on the one, could be just sort of. selfish sexual gratification like on our own,  it could be, you know, like, well, what if we're just two consenting adults and we both agree that this is what we want to do?  And, know, so there's so many, so many issues there and the argument, well, you know, we're not, I'm not hurting anyone or we're just doing what we want to do and nobody's being taken advantage of. And yet  I think biblically, we would say that's not actually accurate that even one, even if it's just myself and my mind. right? My thought life.  am hurting myself for one thing, but because I am in a sense degrading myself, I'm devaluing myself and I'm living simply for my pleasure, which is not why God made us male and female, not why he gave us sexual desires and made us sexual beings.  And  in that fantasy life that we can indulge in just on our own, we're almost  invariably involving some other  idealized or fantasized person that then makes it harder for us to actually have real relationships with people.  Because we build up this idealized fantasy in our  mind that is about my pleasure and my satisfaction. And no real human can live up to that, right?   And then if it's, well, you know, what if it's just two consenting adults, whether it's opposite sex or same sex?  What, you know, what difference does it make? Well,  it's largely the same kind of argument is that we're actually devaluing one another.  We're devaluing ourselves and we're involving another person in devaluing us. This is not what God made us for. And there is a beauty about our sexuality and the goodness of sexual pleasure inside marriage. And the reason God gives us those boundaries and guardrails is because he loves us  and he knows what's best for us.  And  it's an act of faith to trust him  that  what he created us for  is actually for our good.  that stepping outside of that  is always uh taking matters into our own hands and telling God, well, you don't really know what's best for me. And then I can decide for myself. Uh, and so again, it's. working against the picture that God intends  sexual intimacy in marriage uh to uh visualize in terms  of, know, Paul talks about the marriage relationship is almost like a picture of Christ in the church and the  mutual self-giving that's exclusive and committed  and intended to be a blessing from God to the people involved in it. And when we step outside of that,  we're saying, you know,  in For example, well, you know, it doesn't matter so much what I do with my body as long as we both agree.  Uh, I, you know, I can just give my body to another person, but maybe not my heart, my soul, my life. Uh,  so there's, know, there's all these implications that come with it, right? Like God intends that physical union to be a picture of the mutual self-giving and commitment inside marriage  that he created for us. And so anything outside of that is actually devaluing ourselves and one another  and distrusting God.  Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, Jeff. ah Is there anything that you had to cut from your sermon for the sake of time this weekend?  Oh,  man, lot of lot of great stuff and a lot of  commentaries. I just I thought there was for me, even just personally, I think the part. the realization of, you know, Paul contrasting self-giving love with selfishness really hit me in this area of speech.  Not because, you know, I go around cursing and, you know, using bad language all the time, but how easy it is for us to use speech as a way  of trying to find an identity of getting value for ourselves from other people. Uh, you know, we, we lie by exaggeration. tell stories to make ourselves sound a little better, to, make ourselves look more admirable, uh, to make other people look more  ridiculous or unfair than they actually are.  And they're, boy, that just, uh that's an area we probably all need to grow in, right? Like to stop and consider that my words are an opportunity to  love someone well. by representing them fairly by being honest about myself, my, my own, you know, failures, weaknesses, flaws.  Um,  and, and you can't put honoring God and self centeredness  together and right in the same sentence and in the same action.  Um, yeah, there's, there's, there'd be, there's a lot that'd be great to, you know, unpack there, but it just, uh, hopefully that at least sparked some thought for,  for me and for other people. in terms of am I really loving people in how I'm talking about even myself?  Or am I trying to get them to love me and affirm me and value me and uh build me  up in a way that God has actually intended to? And it reminds me of something that we studied previously in chapter four, which is  our only saying words that benefit those who listen, right? And so,  whether it's about ourselves or about others.  then, but also not bordering on that,  like tipping over into flattery, because we also read in the Bible, like that's not helpful to anybody either to go too far um when it's like, actually it's not genuine. You know what I mean? It's like finding that right balance of, we're not saying just to encourage one another just for the sake of like then,  excuse me,  building them up beyond like, let's. what is real, like be genuine with the words that you speak and be honest with the words that you speak because that matters.  just clearly just gave me a great  line, a great thought to put those together when you talked about, you know, speech that  benefits the hearers.  And what Paul is contrasting here is speech that's benefiting the speaker. And that's what he's warning us about. Am I using my speech to benefit me?  And trying to get admiration from people and trying to build myself up, trying to make myself look good, trying to look like I'm cool. And, you know, I'm not some prude because I don't go along with because I, you know, I'll go along with the course of joking or whatever. Well, you know that what that's about benefiting me. It's not about benefiting them.  that wow, that's that's really good. That's going to stick with me, Claire. Thanks.  Yeah. Is my speech benefiting the hearer or the speaker? Me?  Yeah, that's really. Yeah, that's a really easy way to just boil it down. So thanks for getting us to that place. Jeff, I wanted to end our time with  one last thing, um just in the topic of being imitators of Christ. When I heard you start to  enter into that space and talking about what that looks like, I just had this thought of like, man, that  is such a tall order. how could we possibly? You know what I mean? And then I thought, like, let's just talk about the Holy Spirit's role in that because apart from him, we couldn't, we could try.  And maybe it would work for a short time.  Maybe not at all, right? I don't know. Like, is it possible?  What is possible to do apart from him? Apart from the Spirit when it comes to imitating Christ? Probably really  nothing at all. We need the Spirit's help to do that. What does that look like? Yeah, I mean, right.  It's amazing, right? Because as humans, certainly we have the ability being made in God's image, like to pursue moral improvement. uh But even that can end up becoming self-serving, right? If it's not empowered by the Holy Spirit, like  I want to be a moral person, maybe just for my own sake or for my own peace of mind, or maybe it is about serving other people. But, you know, then we still struggle with the temptation to pride and self-righteousness about how moral a person I am. uh So right, it's,  it is, we're not going to really imitate Christ without the presence of the spirit in our lives and without the help of the spirit. And fundamentally, I don't think,  I don't think  there's even a desire to want to imitate Christ without  the spirit's work in our lives.  Like  we can  want, self-improvement, right? Like we can want to be better people, however we define that, but to truly  seek and move towards  self-giving love, just rereading the Sermon on the Mount and the picture that Jesus gives of what the community of God's people look like and what we reflect and the kind of values and virtues that are present in our lives. Like,  I don't even know that I want to be a person who turns the other cheek. when I'm slapped without the spirit working in me.  Not even thinking about the power to do it, but even the desire to do it.  Even the desire to want to be totally trusting in God.  Take no thought for what you're going to wear or what you're going to eat. Your father knows that you need all these things, so don't worry about it.  That sounds great, but there's also a part in which, yeah, but... I really almost kind of want to own that.  so yeah,  yes, you're absolutely right.  And that's something that Paul underscores, of course, throughout Ephesians is the work of the spirit  in growing us in these ways.  And there's  a cooperation that's in view here, right? Like it's not certainly not on us because we don't have the power in ourselves, but it's not as though we just sort of like. Okay, oh God, make me a patient, generous person. And then the spirit does that. Yeah, there's actual effort and  discipline involved in walking with Christ.  And that has to be empowered by the spirit. But we actually also have to put in the effort, right? Like the Holy Spirit's not going to read the Bible. We need to participate, right? Yeah, the Holy Spirit is not going to pray for me. I mean,  in the sense of,  right, like actually investing the time.  The spirit is not going to... and just sort of like magically show up and make me patient and loving with my spouse or my kids or my coworkers, right? Like I  actually have to  be invested in that and exerting effort in the empowerment of the Holy Spirit  who does help us  grow into Christlikeness. Yeah, it reminds me of a sermon that you actually preached in Acts and I know  it was in the last year.  but I couldn't tell you  which part of the book exactly. So  this is probably not super helpful, but just remember you saying like,  it's not going to happen accidentally. You  aren't going to just like, you can't just wish to be more like Christ and wish to be a better follower. And then like, eventually it will happen. Like that's just not going to work. Like you do need to devote time to reading scripture.  You can't just, you're not going to just come to do what scripture says without actually like soaking yourself and steeping yourself in it, right?  And  in prayer  and in community  and in all these other areas, like if you aren't  reading the word and spending time in prayer and spending time in worship and community and all the things that the, what it means to. um become more like Christ. We can't expect to become more like Christ if we're not doing those things. It's just not going to happen otherwise if we're not doing it. I don't know.  just,  yeah, sometimes I think  it's not going to happen by osmosis. I  actually need to put in the time. And I want it.  But then we're always like, oh, we're too busy. Or I don't have time to  give to those things. Well, it's just not going to happen unless we do. Right?  So anyways, that's.  Yeah, and it's right. have to remind ourselves to like just like with any kind of discipline or improvement or exercise or eating well. Right. Like I'm actually doing this for the sake of becoming the kind of person I want to be. And again, it doesn't just happen by accident. mean, gosh, we all know the reality, right. Like  of resistance and inertia.  Right. Like if I just if I just stop  doing anything, I mean, inertia takes over. I stop growing. I stop eating. I stop exercising. I stop. Right. Like fulfilling my responsibilities. Like that takes no effort. And there's just, there's just something in that dynamic, right. That we have to acknowledge  and we have to accept that it's going to  anything that's going to help us get better is going to take effort and it's going to take investment and intentionality. And there's,  mean, that's why Paul uses that imagery, right? Like of  The athlete training for the games  you don't just show up and become an Olympic athlete Right like by walking through the gate and putting on a bib  you actually have to train  and  Paul saying like right that's exactly right  and it's not that we're earning God's favor. It's not that we're  Making ourselves pleasing to the Lord. We're we're doing this because we already are Forgiven we already are beloved children and Paul saying like right, so let's live into that Identity and the spirit is here to help you do that. That's what Jesus wants to do in your life  and That's what the spirit in fact is even prompting us to do and and helping us to do  Yep, so we can do it by the power of the spirit. Yeah, a great line I heard I've heard years ago over and over is uh grace  is opposed to earning But it's not opposed to effort God's grace is not opposed  to effort. There's effort involved in following Jesus. It's just that grace totally destroys earning anything and deserving and making it on my own. But there's effort in following Jesus. That's perfect to end on and then leave people with and thinking about that as they go about the rest of their day. So thank you so much for that and thank you for your time, Jeff. Thank you, Claire. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time.  If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following Sunday's sermon,  you can email them to podcast at faithchurchindie.com  or  text them in to our faith church texting number  and we'll do our best to cover them in next week's episode.  If this conversation blessed you in any way,  we encourage you to share it with others.  We'll be back again next week.