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Hey.
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You're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the North Side Of Indianapolis.
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My name is Claire Kingsley.

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And I'm Dan Breitwieser.
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Each week, one of us will sit down with the person who gave Sunday's sermon to discuss their message.
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Cut for Time is a the scenes of sermon preparation, and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday.
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Thanks for listening.
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Cut for time.

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Cut for time.
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We are alive.
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We are in September, and we're talking about Ephesians two, pastor Jeff.
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And, I mean, we're just flying through compared to Acts.
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I don't even know I mean, we're we're 25% through this book already, and it's only been like Well well, you know, we are in September.

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It feels it's a good time to be alive.
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It doesn't feel like August or July.
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It almost feels like October out here.

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False false fall is a great week or two in the August.
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Right?

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I love the windows being open.
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It's wonderful.

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It is.
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It is.
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But, you know, for those of us that have lived in the Midwest a long time, we know that it's not done being hot.

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It's it's

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just a teaser.
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But we'll take it.

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We'll take every day of it.
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So we're talking about made alive in your sermon

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Yes.

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On Sunday and some questions from people, which I always love, encourage you to email those in or text those in, so we can ask because, yeah, I just it really adds to the conversation because I know there's a lot of smart people out there thinking through this critically.
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And, if we're relying on me for the questions, we're we're we're not using as many brain cells as we should be.
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So, so yeah.
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So we'll we'll get to we'll get to those as well.
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So, lots to chat about, pastor Jeff.

00:01:53 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
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But first of all, let's kinda give a a view of, your sermon on Sunday.

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Yeah.
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So we, start in the first six verses of Ephesians two, and, the first three verses are this, just I I don't know what's the right way to describe it.
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Describe it.
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Almost discouraging picture of, human beings outside of Christ.
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And and, you know, for those of us who are in Christ, he's saying this is what you used to be like.

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But, it's this idea of, the the main thing in the sermon was the thought that we don't really appreciate the greatness of the rescue if we don't see the depth of the problem.
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And and Paul wants to elevate our vision and lead us into worship and praise and glory of Jesus because of what a great rescue he's worked for us.
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So, we looked at this, picture, first of all, of our nature, our state outside of Jesus, how we're dead in trespasses and sins, we're enslaved, we're by nature, children of disobedience, objects of wrath, how how this fleshly sinful part of us just clings to everything we do and did.
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And, so we we looked at that, how how sin actually works.
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We looked at the operation of sin, the way that it works in us.

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We looked at then, where does this come from?
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What's the origin of sin?
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And Paul paints this picture of us coming out of the womb, essentially.
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Nobody teaches us how to sin.
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Right?

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Like nobody nobody has to tell us, here's how you lie to get out of trouble.
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You know, here's what you should do.
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You should just take whatever you want.
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I mean, nobody teaches toddlers that.
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Right?

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Like, we have to teach them not to do that.
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And think about us that is not, not naturally wired towards selflessness, love, other centeredness, generosity, kindness, forgiveness.
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I mean, it doesn't mean we're as bad as we can possibly be, but there's something profoundly broken in us.
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And the result of that, the outcome is, as Paul says, we we were dead.
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We're spiritually dead, like bodies that have no life with them, not responsive to spiritual stimuli.

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No I mean, we think people that don't know Christ that we we've all met, you know, as we've tried to maybe talk about our faith, introduce people to Jesus, and some people are responsive and other people, it's just like you're you'd think you were talking to someone with a different language.
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Like, it's just going nowhere.
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Right?
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No interest in the Bible.
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No interest in what God says.

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No, no vision for the beauty of Jesus.
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No hunger and thirst for the things of God.
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We're we're just spiritually dead unless god does something.
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And Paul is taking us down to this, you know, the the depths of reminding us what we are without Christ to to say to to just hammer home this point.
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We don't need, renovation.

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We don't need inspiration.
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We we need transformation.
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We need resurrection.
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And and that's where we come to this great part in verse four, but god.
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We were dead, we were lost, we were hopeless, but God.

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But God made us alive out of his rich mercy and grace, and he's raised us with Christ.
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He's, we've ascended with Christ.
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We've been seated in the heavenly realms with Christ.
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So it's this it's this beautiful kind of before and after contrast picture.
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And we spent a lot of time really probably two thirds of the message looking at that, not just before picture, but the reality of us outside of God's work and the presence of the spirit in our lives because I think we can all recognize there are ways that we still be like that, and that part of the old life still clings to us in some way.

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Well, I think as Americans, particularly in our culture, we minimize that quality about ourselves.
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We think it's just a little bit of self improvement.
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You know?
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We we just need

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it just

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a little bit better.
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Yeah.
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You know, I'm really not that bad.
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I mean, we really have a good sense of of minimizing our own shortcomings and maximizing everyone else's errors.
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Yeah.

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We we we've really heard that.
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You know, I think of, you know, speeding down the road and, you know, the the, you know, anybody who's driving faster than me is an idiot, and everybody who's driving slower than me is a moron.
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So, you know, it's Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And that doesn't matter what speed it is.

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Exactly.
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And

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so we've we've lost that sense of, you know, I think just a an ability to see ourselves for who we really are, and and it's just a different or in that way.
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And I'm I'm kinda thinking, you know, we don't have that, you know, when you think about the stories in the Bible where, you know, someone flings themselves onto the feet of Jesus Mhmm.
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Is, you know, I am the worst of the worst.
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Like, we don't identify with that.
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You know?

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We don't you know, America is a a mobile society.
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We can go into the US capital.
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We can, you know, go into our state house.
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We can talk to our we can write a letter to our governor.
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We can go meet president if we want to.

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Like, we have a very mobile society upward, and there's very few places.
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I'm thinking of, like, that one island of Hawaii, which is a private island.
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You can't go unless you're not unless you're invited by the people who own it.
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You know, like, it that's very unusual to us, and I think other cultures have a better understanding of, you know, we're not just trying to improve ourselves.
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We were dead.

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You know, we were, you know, we were those the the lepers who had to holler out, you know, and scream out to people to prevent people from coming near us.
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I mean, we we had to you know, we couldn't just mix and mingle in society.
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Do you what do you does that ring a bell?

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Oh, yeah.
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Totally.
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No.
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I I mean, sure.
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And not only just from our observation of the world around us, but the Bible, of course, is affirming what you're saying.

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You're you're reflecting clear biblical messages.
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I mean, we, the the we we also live in, kind of a consumeristic culture, and there's a marketplace of religion, right, in in America.
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And so you don't have to hear a message that confronts you or challenges you or potentially makes you feel bad about yourself.
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I'm, you know, if I wanna appeal to religious consumers, I'm gonna tell a story about how there's nothing fundamentally wrong with you and, you know, you just need a little brushing up and yeah.
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Sure.

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Try harder.

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Just try just a little bit harder.

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Yeah.
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Which, ironically, we would say as Christians is actually a a horrible burden to put on people.
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It's just a crushing burden.
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And, I think we're gonna get to see more of that, this week as we get the next passage about how God has raised us up by grace we've been saved, not of ourselves, which is threatening to our pride and, and and humbles us, but in the best way possible.
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But because if it is up to us, I have no I have not I have no way to handle my failures and my shortcomings.

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If my life is not working, it's totally on me because I, you know, I haven't done enough.
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I haven't worked hard enough.
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I haven't tried.
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You know, I don't I need more knowledge.
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I need more And and that's the kind of burden that Jesus is trying to, relieve us from.

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So, yes, there's there's both all of the, meritocracy in a sense that you were alluding to in our culture.
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I I heard a fascinating devotional recently, by a guy who was talking about the difference between high power distance cultures and low power distance cultures.
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And and I and in the world of the Bible, in the ancient Near East, and in a lot of traditional cultures, there's a very high pistons that is there are the people in charge.
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There there are the nobles, the kings, the governors, the the priests, whatever, and and they're definitely elevated, and they are above us.
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And you don't just walk into their presence.

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You don't just, you know, go up and greet them, you don't call them by their first name, you have a much lower position.
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And, to even be able to approach someone like that is a huge invitation.
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Right?
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Like, you don't you don't just get invite yourself to be that person's friend.
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Right?

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Like, it the the invitation only goes one direction.
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And he was making this point about, Jesus saying, I no longer call you servants.
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I call you friends.
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And, how unique and mind blowing that would have been in that culture to have a king, to have a messiah, to have a a Lord say, no.
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You're my friends, actually.

00:11:06 [Speaker 3]
And he said it it doesn't resonate the same way in places like America and in in the in the West, the low, power distance culture, which is very flattened.
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We call everyone very casual, very informal.
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Everyone we call everyone by their first names.
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I was just thinking about this, may have gotten way off on a rabbit trail now, but with our own kids.
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So, like, so our kids are in their, you know, twenties, late twenties.

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And, I remember one of them one time saying, like, we we thought, like, we were really open and welcoming.
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We always wanted to have our kids' friends in our house.
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We're always glad to bowl and have dinners and come over and play and hang out.
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And, in their later teen years, one of our kids said, our friends don't think you guys are are very friendly and welcoming.
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Like, what?

00:11:55 [Speaker 3]
Really?
00:11:56 [Speaker 3]
Well, because you always want them to call you mister and missus Schultz.
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And we were just like, oh, what?
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Like, because that's just the way we grew up.
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Like, for me, I'm in my late fifties.

00:12:08 [Speaker 3]
I couldn't imagine calling one of my parents' friends by their first name.
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Right?
00:12:14 [Speaker 3]
Like or parents or, like, going over to the house of a friend and calling their parents by their first I don't even know if I knew what their first names were.
00:12:23 [Speaker 3]
It's just, you know, there there was still an element of that high power distance that that, that you just you don't just come right in here and sit down on the king's throne.
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Right?

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And with that perspective, it's it doesn't seem quite as amazing to us that that we are children of the king, that the princes, that we are friends of the lord, and and the savior.

00:12:54 [Speaker 2]
I think the parable that comes to mind is, you know, the, you know, the servant the ungrateful servant.
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Right?
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You know, the one who Oh, okay.
00:13:02 [Speaker 2]
You know, is is, you know, his has been forgiven, you know, 10,000 talents.
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I mean, some, you know, just I mean,

00:13:09 [Speaker 3]
billions of dollars.

00:13:10 [Speaker 2]
You know, ungodly amount of money, and then he goes and immediately, you know, what Jesus is telling of it now and he grabs somebody by the neck and throws him in jail for owing him a $100.
00:13:22 [Speaker 2]
And it's like, you know, the others come to to the king and say, you know, like, do you know what this guy has done?
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Because, like, you forgave him so much, and now he's, you know, doing the exact opposite for Right.
00:13:35 [Speaker 2]
An amount of money that is, you know, and that's I think that's sounds like that's what you're getting at when it comes to

00:13:40 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.

00:13:41 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:13:41 [Speaker 2]
Really grasp the Right.
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Depth of the problem.
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And so you can't truly appreciate the the greatness of the been rescued, the the death Yeah.
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That you had, that people

00:13:53 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:13:53 [Speaker 3]
And I and I think it's, commentators go back and forth, but I think there's something to to the argument that, if we if we look at the context of this coming right out of the the prayer in the end of chapter one where Paul's saying, I I pray that the eyes of your heart would be enlightened.
00:14:11 [Speaker 3]
I I pray that you would, you know, see God's greatness and glory and, and power.
00:14:17 [Speaker 3]
And, and and I think that this flows right out of that, out of that prayer almost as sort of, oh, yeah.
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Don't forget.

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Like, don't sight of what God has actually done for you.
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Don't lose your sense of amazement at the the state that Jesus rescued you out of, and and how desperately hopeless you were without Christ.
00:14:48 [Speaker 3]
That's what makes the grace of God and the rescue of Jesus and the work of the spirit in our lives so amazing.
00:14:56 [Speaker 3]
When when we just live in that awareness of the the recognition, the memory of the ongoing memory of not only what Jesus did in bringing us to himself, but what he's continuing to do.
00:15:11 [Speaker 3]
Because part of what we talked about is and I I think we, you know, as we thought about it through the passage, like, it's not just like, oh well I got saved, and yeah, and I'm grateful that happened way back then, but I'm, you know, I'm glad that's done, and that's not the kind of person I am anymore.

00:15:25 [Speaker 3]
I mean obviously Paul's gonna, when we get in the later chapters, talk about, you know, you still have work to do in putting to death the deeds of the flesh because this fleshliness just kinda keeps clinging to us in some way because we're not totally transformed yet.

00:15:42 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:15:42 [Speaker 2]
I think the the word that I think of when you're talking about those things is joy.
00:15:47 [Speaker 2]
I mean, that, you know, just having an attitude of of gratitude, and to realize, like, man, I used to be dead.
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You know?
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And I mean, just with that, you know, thinking through maybe some aspects where someone's helped you in a situation or something like that, and you're just thinking, you know, I am so I'm just joyful to to be to be alive, to to have that.

00:16:13 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:16:14 [Speaker 2]
You know, it it probably makes you work harder as you're talking to other people about Jesus, but the reason you're is because you're you're just filled with joy.
00:16:22 [Speaker 2]
You can't help but share that.
00:16:24 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:16:25 [Speaker 2]
It changes it changes your outlook on life.

00:16:27 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:16:28 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.

00:16:29 [Speaker 2]
Well, let's, there's a couple good questions connected to some of the the concepts you didn't talk about in, Ephesians two.
00:16:38 [Speaker 2]
Well, there yet, I'm just trying to tease ahead, you know, like a good journey.
00:16:41 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:16:41 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:16:42 [Speaker 2]
But I wanna talk a little bit more about, just sort of the thoughts.

00:16:46 [Speaker 2]
You, you had a few things you cut for time, and and one thing you talked about a little bit was the the flesh and the soul.
00:16:53 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:16:53 [Speaker 2]
Those sorts of things.
00:16:54 [Speaker 2]
So talk to me a little bit about that.
00:16:55 [Speaker 2]
What what was what was that you know, there there isn't a hierarchy of sin between the the physical and the spiritual.

00:17:02 [Speaker 2]
What is that all about?

00:17:03 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:17:03 [Speaker 3]
So, right, I mean, for those of us who've grown up in church, I think, you know, especially in the event, we can tend to, you know, call to mind.
00:17:14 [Speaker 3]
You know, if you think of preaching against sin, we probably heard a lot more sermons about drunkenness and sexual immorality and gambling than we did about pride or greed or lust or racism or gossip, almost as though, you know, behind it was this idea that, you know, sins that we do physical body somehow are are more serious than sins, so to speak, of the of the spirit.
00:17:49 [Speaker 3]
And, and a number of commentators had made that observation and I think pointed out that it probably comes from this unfortunate misunderstanding of what Paul's talking about here when he talks about the flesh.
00:18:00 [Speaker 3]
He's not drawing this sharp distinction between, like, our physical body and our soul as though, you know, fleshly means the physical sins, the bodily sins, you know, smoke or you know whatever.

00:18:14 [Speaker 3]
And and the other sins are not quite as damaging or serious.
00:18:18 [Speaker 3]
I think what Paul's the distinction he's really drawing when he talks about flesh versus spirit is a whole orientation to life that is contrasted that that is defined by sort of our natural state outside of Christ that's defined to the life of the spirit and the work of the spirit.
00:18:37 [Speaker 3]
So there's fleshly reality and desires that can be internal externally oriented.
00:18:46 [Speaker 3]
But then there's the whole transformation of us into Christ likeness as we're made alive, where now the spirit of God is at work in us and transforming everything that we're doing with our bodies externally and internally, in our thinking, in our attitudes, in our in our hearts.
00:19:06 [Speaker 3]
So one one of the things that's worth, you know, that helps us maybe think about this too is that we can be real people from a fleshly point of view.

00:19:18 [Speaker 3]
Like, we can do religion in the flesh.
00:19:20 [Speaker 3]
I mean, that's that's the attitude of the Pharisee typically in the New Testament.
00:19:24 [Speaker 3]
That's the attitude of the older brother in the in the parable of the prodigal.
00:19:29 [Speaker 3]
Some, for some of us, fleshliness will lead to, just outward immorality.
00:19:37 [Speaker 3]
You know, again, some of those things that we, you know, typically, again, heard sermons against gambling, drinking, sexual immorality, smoking, whatever.

00:19:45 [Speaker 3]
For others of us, fleshliness do very good abstaining moral lives, if that makes sense.
00:19:52 [Speaker 3]
Like, I can be a moral, religious, upstanding, productive member of society 100% in my flesh.
00:20:01 [Speaker 3]
And and the way that I know that that's happening is if what I'm doing becomes a source of pride and righteousness about myself.
00:20:10 [Speaker 3]
So I can be a good citizen.
00:20:12 [Speaker 3]
I can mow my lawn.

00:20:13 [Speaker 3]
I can pick up trash after myself.
00:20:15 [Speaker 3]
You know, I can I can pick up my dog dirt in, you know, other people's yards?
00:20:21 [Speaker 3]
And and if I'm then at the same time looking down on all the people who aren't doing those things, the people who aren't paying their taxes.
00:20:27 [Speaker 3]
Oh, I you know, those people are just if I'm more like me, why can't, you know, why can't those people be more like me and the way I do things?
00:20:37 [Speaker 3]
Even in worship, even in religion, you know, why can't why don't people see it the way I see it?

00:20:44 [Speaker 3]
Because obviously, the way I'm doing it, the way I'm worshiping, the the the things that I, you know, think are honoring to God, those are clearly what pleases God, and those other people just don't have it together like I do.
00:20:57 [Speaker 3]
So that even worship and religion come fleshly expressions of of sinful desires inside of us.
00:21:07 [Speaker 3]
Hope hopefully, that helps make sense a little of the of the, you know, it's it's not the body soul distinction.
00:21:13 [Speaker 3]
It's it's a fleshly, sinful, selfish part of us that wants to find a righteousness, a record that I can be proud of apart from relying on Jesus.
00:21:24 [Speaker 3]
And anything that leads us in that direction is of the flesh.

00:21:28 [Speaker 3]
And it doesn't matter whether it's fits of rage, anger, orgies, drunkenness, you know, the list that Paul's gonna you know, we're gonna look at in a few chapters.
00:21:39 [Speaker 3]
It can be upright, you know, positive outstanding members of society who earn a good living, manage their homes and their families well, and look really polished on the outside, but it's just all about themselves.
00:21:53 [Speaker 3]
It it's about how they're performing and how proud they are of how they're performing.

00:21:59 [Speaker 2]
Alright.
00:21:59 [Speaker 2]
Well, that was sort of one thing you sort of cut for time, but what else did you cut for time in this, you know, sermon over just, a lot of a lot of lot of meat here.
00:22:08 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.

00:22:09 [Speaker 3]
Well, Well, I think there there are actually a couple of things that I ended up, I mean, I would have loved to dig into more that I think were actually related to some questions that we got.
00:22:17 [Speaker 3]
Okay.
00:22:18 [Speaker 3]
We can we can, go to those because we got, we're, like, two or three good questions in.

00:22:24 [Speaker 2]
We did.
00:22:24 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:22:24 [Speaker 2]
And, again, love those questions.
00:22:26 [Speaker 2]
Keep them coming.
00:22:28 [Speaker 2]
And so let's let's talk about and and all three kinda has some common threads really connected to some of the words that are used and

00:22:35 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.

00:22:36 [Speaker 2]
What do they really mean and and obviously not all not able to get into all of them.
00:22:40 [Speaker 2]
So, we're gonna start there's there's two questions about words in two six and one question about, words in in two two.
00:22:48 [Speaker 2]
So let's talk about this first.
00:22:49 [Speaker 2]
So, the I'm gonna kinda read Ephesians two two.
00:22:53 [Speaker 2]
So we're all in the same here.

00:22:56 [Speaker 2]
So, and and getting into it.
00:22:57 [Speaker 2]
So you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of power of the air and the spirit that is now at work in in the sons of disobedience.
00:23:12 [Speaker 2]
So the question that comes in is, what does Paul have in mind when he talks about the the the power of the air?
00:23:22 [Speaker 2]
And I'm just gonna add in my own question to it is, what are what maybe does he have in mind about the sons of disobedience?
00:23:30 [Speaker 2]
You know, so let but this you know, that's

00:23:32 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:23:33 [Speaker 3]
You

00:23:33 [Speaker 2]
know, with again, Jesus is in control of all things.
00:23:36 [Speaker 2]
So what is this Right.
00:23:38 [Speaker 2]
Prince of the air, and and what does that mean?

00:23:40 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:23:41 [Speaker 3]
Tell you what.
00:23:42 [Speaker 3]
Let's go ahead to that question related to verse six because I I think we're gonna be able to tie these together, and, hopefully, that'll help us make sense of it.

00:23:51 [Speaker 2]
Alright.
00:23:51 [Speaker 2]
Well, then let's well, just two for one.
00:23:54 [Speaker 2]
I like this.

00:23:55 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:23:55 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.

00:23:55 [Speaker 2]
Alright.
00:23:56 [Speaker 2]
So then we're gonna we're gonna continue to Ephesians two six.
00:24:01 [Speaker 2]
You know, again, by grace you have been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places places in Christ Jesus.
00:24:11 [Speaker 2]
And so this question is connected to the heavenly places, and the question is, what might Paul be trying to get across to his, readers and listeners?
00:24:22 [Speaker 2]
And this, you know, kinda goes on to say, Paul seems like one who has a specific meaning or understanding, behind the words he uses.

00:24:30 [Speaker 2]
And, obviously, we're translating to different language and culture, which

00:24:35 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.

00:24:35 [Speaker 2]
Only complicates things.
00:24:37 [Speaker 2]
I mean, makes things easier.
00:24:38 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:24:39 [Speaker 2]
So, you know, again, we're I like to find those questions.
00:24:42 [Speaker 2]
So, you know Yeah.

00:24:43 [Speaker 2]
What does Paul have in mind with the the prince of the power of the air, and and what does he mean by Yeah.
00:24:49 [Speaker 2]
Heavenly places?

00:24:50 [Speaker 3]
I think it's yes.
00:24:51 [Speaker 3]
It sounds kind of far moved and a little hard for us to understand because it's sounds like it's coming from a world view that just seems very different, distant from us.
00:25:02 [Speaker 3]
And in some ways, it probably is, But I think that's more our issue than, the issue of Paul and the New Testament writers.
00:25:12 [Speaker 3]
I think for us as modern, Westerners, we probably don't realize the extent to which we have just sort of almost internalized a I don't know.
00:25:26 [Speaker 3]
I don't wanna say like atheist, but a a materialist worldview that even as Christians, I think we we really have to remind ourselves in a sense because of the world that we live in that, oh, that's right.

00:25:41 [Speaker 3]
There is an entire other world that exists beyond what we can see, feel, hear, touch in this world.
00:25:48 [Speaker 3]
Because that is so much of our lives and so much of what we're just almost constantly is this is it.
00:25:57 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:25:57 [Speaker 3]
Like, we we are we live in a material world.
00:26:02 [Speaker 3]
Material causes are the things that we can measure and track.

00:26:05 [Speaker 3]
And, Paul is coming from a biblical worldview, which sees, of course, we live in a material world, but there is actually another world that is just as real and just as powerful and significant in terms of what's happening around us and in the world that we observe.
00:26:24 [Speaker 3]
And, I think one of the ways that expresses that is this image of the the prince of the power of the air.
00:26:31 [Speaker 3]
And I think the best way to understand that is Paul is just referring to this idea, whether or not, you know, you would say he had, like, a multilevel view of, you know, Earth and the cosmos and then the the unseen spiritual realm.
00:26:45 [Speaker 3]
I think that the power of the air is referring to this idea that, again, there's there unseen spiritual forces and beings and an unseen spiritual realm that exists, all around us and in this run this world that is sort of symbolized by this idea of the the power of the air.
00:27:04 [Speaker 3]
And and we're gonna get, into that a little bit later in, Ephesians where Paul talks about, the spiritual battle that we are living in and putting on the whole armor of God because we're not wrestling against flesh and blood, but against cosmic powers over this present darkness, spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

00:27:27 [Speaker 3]
So, not so much geographically, but, but really and truly, there is another world at work that is kind of pictured as above in some sense.
00:27:42 [Speaker 3]
Where, for example, Satan and evil forces have power and and seem to have dominion and authority in this world.
00:27:50 [Speaker 3]
And I think that's basically what Paul's referring to here in verse two, the prince of the power of the air.
00:27:57 [Speaker 3]
That's Satan.
00:27:58 [Speaker 3]
That's the devil.

00:27:59 [Speaker 3]
That's, it refers to him the god of this or as the New Testament writers, the the god of this world.
00:28:05 [Speaker 3]
I mean, not in that he's not in the sense that he's ultimate, but in the sense that Satan is alive and at work and powerful.
00:28:13 [Speaker 3]
He is a spiritual malevolent being who is at work, again, in this unseen realm that in some sense is above us if we want to think geographically that way.
00:28:26 [Speaker 3]
And and he is therefore then the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.
00:28:32 [Speaker 3]
And and I think that's even easier to understand perhaps.

00:28:34 [Speaker 3]
Sons of disobedience just means us.
00:28:37 [Speaker 3]
It means fallen humans.
00:28:39 [Speaker 3]
It's not a special category of people.
00:28:42 [Speaker 3]
I think it's just Paul pulling out kind of a typical Hebrew phrase, sons of the devil, sons of disobedience, you are sons of your father.
00:28:52 [Speaker 3]
So it's it's just kind of a Hebraic kind of phrasing, that Paul is using here.

00:28:58 [Speaker 3]
And he's just basically saying in our fallen natural state outside of Christ, we are disobedient.
00:29:05 [Speaker 3]
We we are living lives guided as much by our own fallen natures as by the temptation and direction and encouragement and and the sort of culture around us influenced by Satan that encourages us to be disobedient, that tells us to be our own gods, to make to choose good and evil for ourselves, totally independent from god.
00:29:28 [Speaker 3]
So I think Paul here is just simply saying, we were following the same course and pattern and values of Satan who is at work encouraging us to follow him in his disobedience.
00:29:43 [Speaker 3]
I mean, it's in a sense, you could say maybe even has in in mind the very first temptation back in the garden.
00:29:50 [Speaker 3]
You won't die if you disobey God.

00:29:52 [Speaker 3]
You'll be like God.
00:29:53 [Speaker 3]
You'll be able to choose good and evil for yourselves.
00:29:57 [Speaker 3]
And again, that's, you know, back to the idea of by nature, children of wrath.
00:30:04 [Speaker 3]
Well, nobody teaches us.
00:30:06 [Speaker 3]
No.

00:30:06 [Speaker 3]
None had to teach us that we can choose good and evil for ourselves.
00:30:10 [Speaker 3]
I can decide for myself what's good for me and and what I ought to be doing and what other people ought to be doing.
00:30:17 [Speaker 3]
So maybe Paul even has that in the back of his mind.
00:30:19 [Speaker 3]
It's it's the same message.
00:30:20 [Speaker 3]
Be independent of God.

00:30:22 [Speaker 3]
You can have life on your own.
00:30:24 [Speaker 3]
You can be your own Lord and God and savior even, and you don't have to rely on Jesus.
00:30:29 [Speaker 3]
You don't have to worship God.
00:30:30 [Speaker 3]
Just worship yourself, which essentially means we're worshiping Satan, because we're following him in his same dis

00:30:39 [Speaker 2]
but the and then you sort of hit on it and just things that I've thought of talking about this is just the difference in in this I think question, giver is also thinking through this.
00:30:48 [Speaker 2]
You know, there's just a different understanding of the cosmology.
00:30:53 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:30:53 [Speaker 2]
You know, the the idea of, well, how did this world come to be?
00:30:58 [Speaker 2]
You know?

00:30:58 [Speaker 2]
It's only in the last two to three hundred years that, you know, 99.9% of us believe that the Earth is round.
00:31:06 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:31:06 [Speaker 2]
We we, you know, until now, it just sort of seemed like it it would make sense that it's flat.
00:31:12 [Speaker 2]
And so, you know, when you think of, you know, terms, I think in, like, Psalms where it talks about, you know, the the foundation of the world and how some of the word choices that are used Right.
00:31:23 [Speaker 2]
It it really goes along with the idea that well, yeah.

00:31:26 [Speaker 2]
The it it would make sense.
00:31:28 [Speaker 2]
You know, I look at my house and there's a foundation.
00:31:30 [Speaker 2]
And so we're we're in the, you know, we're in the, you know, Main Floor, and then you've got these beams.
00:31:35 [Speaker 2]
And then you've got this, you know, sort of ceiling roof thing above us, and that's kinda what the sky is.
00:31:40 [Speaker 2]
Right?

00:31:40 [Speaker 2]
I mean and

00:31:41 [Speaker 3]
Right.

00:31:41 [Speaker 2]
Obviously, now we have satellite imagery of the ocean.
00:31:45 [Speaker 2]
And so the the danger and the chaos of the ocean has been somewhat lifted from our view.

00:31:51 [Speaker 3]
Right.

00:31:52 [Speaker 2]
No.
00:31:52 [Speaker 2]
So it's, you know, it I think sort of hitting at that, I think those are some of the things that, obviously, Paul and others, that's that hidden idea that they have, you know, the the hidden assumptions they have on how their world is and operates and and things like maybe coming out in those verses as well.

00:32:10 [Speaker 3]
You know, I we don't we don't even say this that much anymore, but there you know, it used to be when I give into temptation, oh, the devil made me do it.
00:32:19 [Speaker 3]
There was at least, you know, if that was sort of like pushing responsibility away, at least there was a recognition that when I'm doing something sinful or disobedient or, you know, wrong that that's aligning myself somehow with this spiritual being and spiritual powers and forces that are at work in the world.
00:32:37 [Speaker 3]
And I think we just we don't even use that language anymore because we've lost even that common cultural sense that there actually is a literal spiritual being called the devil who is not only tempting us to evil and encouraging us in wickedness and disobedience, but that when doing those kinds of things, I am aligning myself with being an enemy of God, with doing things that make me an enemy of God's rule and righteousness and holiness and goodness and justice.
00:33:09 [Speaker 3]
And that's maybe again where our our we we get our hackles up a little at this idea of being children of wrath.
00:33:17 [Speaker 3]
But shouldn't God be opposed to evil?

00:33:20 [Speaker 3]
I mean, we want God to be opposed to injustice and violence and oppression and greed and all those things that we talked about.
00:33:27 [Speaker 3]
I think we just don't wanna think that that's about us.
00:33:31 [Speaker 3]
Right.

00:33:31 [Speaker 2]
It's only we all we want it to be super true about everybody else.

00:33:35 [Speaker 3]
Yes.

00:33:36 [Speaker 2]
Then against that.
00:33:37 [Speaker 2]
And I think there's there's a different way of even thinking about when think of, when we think about, like, when talking about kids.
00:33:42 [Speaker 2]
Like, there's no bad people.
00:33:43 [Speaker 2]
They're they just really make bad choices.

00:33:45 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:33:45 [Speaker 3]
We're not

00:33:46 [Speaker 2]
quite to, you know, connecting that to sin because they're not really old enough to talk about well, they're not everybody's a sinful person because of their sinful choices, but that does that you know, again, everybody makes bad choices.
00:33:56 [Speaker 2]
It you know, trying to show love and condemnation towards that, but it also sort of glosses for that.

00:34:02 [Speaker 3]
Where do the sinful choices come from in the first place?
00:34:04 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:34:05 [Speaker 3]
It's a I mean, it's, right.
00:34:07 [Speaker 3]
Yeah.
00:34:07 [Speaker 3]
And I think Jesus, Paul, I mean, all the biblical writers are saying, we're not sinful because we do sinful actions.

00:34:16 [Speaker 3]
We do sinful actions because we're sinful.
00:34:20 [Speaker 3]
And I and I think in our modern world, in this, you know, very flattened materialistic view that is, of course, you know, also very self elevating, it's well, I you know, of course, everybody does some sinful things, I guess, but, it's not it I mean, not not because I'm a sinful person.

00:34:37 [Speaker 2]
We were dead in sin.
00:34:39 [Speaker 2]
That goes back to the whole thing.
00:34:41 [Speaker 2]
I mean, we even made that.

00:34:42 [Speaker 3]
So, the the really the the reason I want us to jump down to that part in verse six and and connect it to this idea of, this this beautiful chain that Paul pictures.
00:34:53 [Speaker 3]
God made us alive with Christ.
00:34:55 [Speaker 3]
He raised us up with Christ, and he seated us with Christ in the heavenly places.
00:35:01 [Speaker 3]
And now you put that in contrast what we were just saying in verse two about this unseen spiritual realm where there can be these malevolent forces and powers at work, but who rules and reigns over that ultimately?
00:35:17 [Speaker 3]
It Jesus.

00:35:19 [Speaker 3]
Jesus has I mean, was Jesus ever threatened by any of these evil powers, by demonic forces and evil spirits.
00:35:29 [Speaker 3]
No.
00:35:29 [Speaker 3]
No.
00:35:29 [Speaker 3]
It was nothing for him.
00:35:30 [Speaker 3]
I mean, not nothing, but he he really had 100% authority and control over them.

00:35:35 [Speaker 3]
He drives evil spirits out of the herd of pigs or out of the man and into the herd of pigs.
00:35:40 [Speaker 3]
He cast demons out of people.
00:35:42 [Speaker 3]
He's just and and Paul is making this amazing statement that that those of us who were like the demoniacs chained and bound and hopeless have been set free, and not only set free, but raised up and seated in the same place of authority Jesus occupies in in his ascension and and in his rule at the right hand of the father.
00:36:10 [Speaker 3]
And I think Paul is not saying that, you know, that we're supposed to go around and, you know, claim authority over demons, not that kind of stuff, but he's but he's saying what that means is we do not have to be enslaved to them anymore.
00:36:23 [Speaker 3]
We've been given now a position of authority and power because of the Holy Spirit who is at work within us.

00:36:31 [Speaker 3]
We've we've died to that old slavery, to the prince or the heir, and not just died to it, but we've just as Christ was raised and seated, we have been raised and seated in the same heavenly places where Christ reigns, so that now we are no longer subject as slaves to the to the tyrannical power of the prince of the air.
00:36:58 [Speaker 3]
We're now under the authority and live in the power of the Holy Spirit of the Triune God who is within us.
00:37:08 [Speaker 3]
And and the same power to not have to be enslaved, to not have to be dominated, to not have to be driven by those powers that Jesus has is available to us.
00:37:20 [Speaker 3]
That's an amazing picture that that Paul wants us to get, that that these these malevolent powers and forces don't need to threaten us, don't need to frighten us, don't need to control us anymore because we're Christ's, and and he lives in us now.
00:37:40 [Speaker 3]
That's amazing.

00:37:41 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:37:42 [Speaker 3]
It's it's like the picture Jesus uses of the, you know, coming in and and cleaning out the house.
00:37:49 [Speaker 3]
And, now a new spirit comes to live in this house, and and we're no longer, you know, tenanted by, indwelt by, controlled by the evil forces of the prince of the powers of the air.
00:38:05 [Speaker 3]
It's just it's it's amazing language that Paul's using here.
00:38:08 [Speaker 3]
So on the one hand, I think Paul is wanting us to recognize that it's, it's like God saying it's as good as done.

00:38:18 [Speaker 3]
There's no doubt that this is the reality, the future for us, but it's also in a sense our present experience.
00:38:27 [Speaker 3]
It's a parallel, I think, to what Paul writes in Romans where he says, those whom God called, he also justified.
00:38:33 [Speaker 3]
Those he justified, he sanctified.
00:38:35 [Speaker 3]
And those he sanctified, he glorified.
00:38:38 [Speaker 3]
Past tense.

00:38:38 [Speaker 3]
Like Paul is writing about our glory in Christ as if it's already done.
00:38:44 [Speaker 3]
And in one sense, it is.
00:38:46 [Speaker 3]
Obviously, in our own present real experience, it's still being worked out.
00:38:51 [Speaker 3]
But Paul wants us to see there is a present reality to this, that we are no longer slaves, we're no longer slaves to fear, we're no longer slaves to sin, that just as Jesus is ruling with authority and power over the the evil forces of this world, so we too, not in, of course, not in the full measure of Christ, but we have an experience of that.
00:39:18 [Speaker 3]
We have a foretaste of that.

00:39:19 [Speaker 3]
Every time that we are empowered in the Napier to say no to temptation, when we when the Spirit helps us with with our effort, with our cooperation to say no to selfishness, to greed, to lust, to envy, to bitterness, to gossip, we are living out this experience that Paul is talking about here, that that God is giving me victory over these things that I didn't have victory over before.
00:39:52 [Speaker 3]
And because I have power, bar it now, because I I have been seated with Christ above all those powers and authorities.
00:40:04 [Speaker 3]
And one day that's gonna be our our final ultimate reality.
00:40:07 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:40:07 [Speaker 3]
Like that's amazing.

00:40:09 [Speaker 3]
Right?
00:40:09 [Speaker 3]
Like one day we actually will be glorified.
00:40:13 [Speaker 3]
And and one day we, theologians talk about this this great, you know, kind of progression.
00:40:19 [Speaker 3]
Of course it's in Latin because you know you go to seminary, you gotta learn Latin, and you get a PhD, you gotta get some value out of it.
00:40:27 [Speaker 3]
So in Adam we were non posse non peccare not able not to sin.

00:40:36 [Speaker 3]
In Christ we are able not to sin now posse non peccare.
00:40:42 [Speaker 3]
In the future, in glory, we will be non posse peccare, not able to sin.
00:40:49 [Speaker 3]
Because finally all the remnants of sin and and the corruption that still clings to us in this life will be done away with forever.
00:40:59 [Speaker 3]
And one day we will finally be set free completely to no longer sin.
00:41:06 [Speaker 3]
And in this life right now, we have been set free to not have to sin.

00:41:12 [Speaker 3]
We have been given a new power because we are connected to Christ that we didn't have before outside of Christ.
00:41:21 [Speaker 3]
And that's I think what Paul is alluding to as well, that we have this something genuinely new has happened to us.
00:41:29 [Speaker 3]
We we are new people made alive in Christ, able to not sin in ways that we weren't before.
00:41:35 [Speaker 3]
We we not only now desire to follow Christ, we now have a new ability to to follow Christ in in righteousness and holiness.
00:41:45 [Speaker 3]
And and that's beautiful and so, encouraging and empowering of us.

00:41:51 [Speaker 2]
I love that.
00:41:52 [Speaker 2]
I think that really ties in well.
00:41:53 [Speaker 2]
I mean, we can be really joyful because we've been made alive, and we can be joyful because, you know, in a crazy Christian only way, we are already seen with Christ and that, hopefully, makes a difference for our lives with the, each and every day.
00:42:08 [Speaker 2]
Well, pastor Jeff, thank you so much for this.
00:42:12 [Speaker 2]
What a conversation we've had.

00:42:13 [Speaker 2]
I'm looking forward to see what, where we go next week.
00:42:16 [Speaker 2]
So thanks for loving everything and all your work.
00:42:18 [Speaker 2]
We'll see you next week.

00:42:23 [Speaker 1]
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time.
00:42:26 [Speaker 1]
If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following Sunday's sermon, you can email them to podcast@faithchurchindy.com,com, or text them in to our Faith Church texting number, and we'll do our best to cover them in next week's episode.
00:42:42 [Speaker 1]
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00:42:46 [Speaker 1]
We'll be back again next week.