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Hey, you're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the north side of Indianapolis.  My name is Claire Kingsley.  And I'm Dan Breitwieser. Each week, one of us will sit down with the person who gave Sunday's sermon to discuss their message.  Cut for Time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation,  and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday. Thanks for listening. Hey, Tom, it's comfort time. good  to see you. You too.  I've got a cup of warm tea here. Do you have anything  for you on this cold day? I've had all the coffee I need for at least a couple more hours.  OK, and that won't keep you up at night? I can drink coffee till bedtime. I say the same thing.  I say the same thing. I say that, honestly, I could win  a championship. for sleeping, like I'm so good at it. Give me all the caffeine and I'd still win, you know. Well, I still take melatonin in bed times. Okay, so we are finishing up a section in Ephesians that we've been in for a while and you've talked about household codes and we've seen how this applies to our marriage and home house relationships. We've seen it with parenting. Now we're seeing it with work and slaves and masters.  So would you give us a summary from your sermon on Sunday, please, and how it kind of fits into the whole? Yeah, my assignment was to  speak on Ephesians 6, 5 through 9, just five verses, and it begins with the shocking word, slaves obey your masters. So  I decided to take a little different approach.  By the way, I think Ephesians, if you forced me to say what was my favorite book of the Bible, Ephesians, would certainly be in the top five. It's one that I've preached probably more than any other over the 50 years of preaching.  And so I felt like I needed to go back to give context to those five verses. So I went all the way back to chapter four  and  what it says  about how we  are to  walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which we've been called.  how we're to embrace leadership gifts, how we're to grow to maturity, to express unity in Christ between Jew and Gentile, which was the first major issue, walk in personal holiness, speak the truth, sexual purity, how we deal with anger,  unity in worship, that all builds up toward these household codes  of marriage and parenting  and uh employment.  says they were to submit to one another out of the fear of Christ,  and that seems to be saying it's a directional thing from in some sense wives to husbands, children to parents, and then slaves to masters. uh So I unpacked that a little bit  in terms of  how the household codes of the Greek world  are  applied in the Christian world. in which we honor the equality and dignity of all persons, which is a critical, critical piece in the first chapters of Ephesians and now applied in these specific areas. uh And uh so it's how we are to love and not abuse authority in all those levels of relationship. And then I said, well, I signed those five verses, so I better address the slavery issue. Why did Paul say slaves obey your masters? uh And so  We just talked about slavery being the sad reality of the day, and that Paul uh just focused on the foundation of human dignity, and even though he told slaves to obey their masters in the reality of that culture, that he  was really laying the foundations for emancipation. ah That he told the masters, are  to do what's best for those who work for you, and you're to honor them. And then he writes a letter to Philemon, So I went over to another book of the Bible,  and where he  really lays it on thick and says, you need  to receive him no longer as a slave. Was he telling him to emancipate him at that point?  Eh, maybe that's a little too far, but it seems  like what else could you get out of it other than to set him free?  And one of the people after first service said, and you remember Paul said, make sure you have a guest room for me?  And  the implication there is I've got some more to say about this, Philemon. You're not going to just be able to ignore what I say about slavery. You've got to take it seriously. I'm going to come talk to you about it personally.  And I thought that was intriguing that someone pointed that out. So we talked through the slavery issue, and then we tried to do some  practical application for the day that we still have structures of authority, that workers are to obey their bosses, do your job. and submit to that,  and bosses are to give respect and honor to their workers.  Don't abuse them. Don't, you know, pull the boss thing all the time and abuse that authority.  Ultimately, the bottom line is serving God.  And  every one of my five verses that I was preaching Sunday emphasized that part of it, that we are to serve.  God, both the worker and the boss  are, it's all about honoring God and serving God,  or  to the praise of his glory using language of the first two chapters of Ephesians  in our work world, honoring God.  So that's kind of a summary of it.  so yeah, what questions do you have about that? Well, let's start with an easy one, Tom. You were going to preach on our snow day and then everything was canceled. So how much of your message changed from that Sunday to this past Sunday? Because you could have said, hey, I did the work,  and now it's ready to preach when the time comes. Or you had another week to toil over it and think through it, because we've always heard that a sermon is never uh complete, but it's just time to preach it regardless. So did things change? Tell us about that process. How long does it take you to prepare a sermon? I don't know. I've never finished one yet.  Okay, I didn't really change it much, but it soaked all week. So I think in some ways, I'm kind of a last minute guy and the storm forced me to, I didn't know it was going to be stormed out, so I was ready, or as ready as I could be. And so I think it mainly just kind of marinated it in my mind and heart all week. went through it. I did go through it again and made a few little adjustments, but no major changes. It was pretty much the same.  Didn't change as much as I thought it probably would. ah But I think I was into it more and was maybe a little more comfortable even with my notes than I sometimes am when it's kind of just too fresh. ah But yeah, no major changes in terms of direction. Okay. So do you think that extra time to soak is why I heard so much passion in your voice on Sunday,  or is this just a topic that you're super passionate about? I don't think I'm any more passionate about this than some topics. mean, I get pretty fired up about a lot of things. ah But I think, maybe the delay and holding me off for a week kind of got me, you know, kind of chomping at the bit.  I want to do this. Let's get it going.   I mean, maybe other people, I didn't pull anybody. Maybe other people don't feel that, but I just heard it in your voice. I felt like just this extra passion um from your preaching on Sunday. All right. So  you have three parts of your sermon and I've got a question for you in each area. All right. um So first, just on this idea of household codes and when we've heard it from um the past few sermons and then yours.  we're hearing a lot  of things that are pretty radical to Paul's time  and radical  still to us, although maybe it feels less so,  although I don't think that that's true. And so uh what would we lose if we wrote some of these things off as just a cultural moment during Paul's time? Like,  oh, women weren't as valued during that time and so...  But that's not an issue that we have today, which I'm not saying that's true. I'm just saying, what if we did say that or, well, they didn't see their kids  the way we see our kids now. And so I don't have to worry about that. What are we losing if we don't take this seriously? Yeah. Well, I think the temptation with a lot of scripture is to say, oh, that's cultural. That fits then, so it doesn't fit now. And there are cultural applications. And in fact, my text is maybe a dramatic one that No, we in America, at least, there's no legal slavery in America as there was prior to the Civil War. But I think the more radical piece is not that slaves or workers now are to obey their masters, but that masters have a responsibility back toward the worker, the bosses toward the worker, as the husband toward the wife. that you don't treat your wife  as uh someone who's just there to serve you. You treat her as a fellow heir of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and you are a team together. You are to give, I believe Scripture says, give loving leadership to her,  and the same with the children. You guide your children. It's a different level. I'm not saying they're the same level, ah but  they're not there to serve you. They're not there to lift you up. They're there for you to lead, to love. to disciple, and so it is with the worker. ah In the same way, you love the people that work for you, you sacrifice for them, you're willing to give them extra, you're willing to bless them financially where you can,  that still allows your company to succeed,  and ah to me that's what's radical. It's not draining the people that are in your house dry. ah for your benefit, it's how the whole household, husband, wife, parents, children, worker, uh boss, all can thrive ah in the household ah where you operate. Or in our context, in the business that you're operating, the work world where you live. oh That's radical. To be looking out for the concern of others rather than just how can I improve myself. Yeah. So what did this,  I guess a question going off of that before we move on. What are some of the problems  of our cultural moment  and what are we to do about them?  Well, we've got huge problems  in our culture and  they're really standing out today in terms  of abuse  of relationships all across the board.  In terms of, I mean, the whole issue of slavery, we talk like slavery is a thing of the past where in fact it's not.  In the world,  in our discussion earlier, you told me how many tens of millions of slaves there are in the world. Technically, we don't have that in America, but we know we do have sex slavery in America. We know we have that in Indianapolis. It's not legal, it's against the law, and we try to eradicate it, but we can't ignore that and must do all we can as a culture, as a society, with Christians influencing how we can to bring it into that.  Otherwise, though, the selfish nature of humanity  is,  do I get up in the morning thinking, okay, what's best for my wife, what's best for my kids, what's best for the people I work with, or am I thinking selfishly about what's best for me, and how can I get ahead, and how can I win? ah if I win, then do others lose? ah Those  kinds of things. So I think the mentality is a constant battle. exactly the same as it was  2,000 years ago as it is today. Mm-hmm. Thank you. All right, so um you mentioned something  radical for the original heirs of this letter would be to hear that  there is spiritual equality among the master and among the slave, and there is no partiality in Christ. And so what would that have... sounded like to the master and to the slave. How did they receive that and what were the implications of that? Now, uh I think it would have been very radical, but it really is the whole flow of Ephesians.  In the early chapters, it's this  strange, almost unbelievable uniting of Jew and Gentile where they couldn't even be together without contaminating  one another. And he's saying, no, you're all one in Christ Jesus. And so if that's true for the Jew and the Gentile, then it's also true for the, uh well, as Paul says in Galatians 3.28, there's neither slain nor free, Jew nor Gentile,  male or female, you're all one in Christ Jesus. And so Jesus  radically shifts the relationship from  an uh animosity between the two, or a competitiveness between the two, to a brother-brother, sister-brother, sister-sister relationship in which we're part of the same family on the same level in terms of our relationship with God. There's guidelines, structures of authority that we submit to, but we are united in Christ. Yeah, that would have been very radical for a slave to think,  no way can I be considered equal to my master, and for the master to have to consider, wow, I need to honor this  slave and even as Paul talked to Philemon,  perhaps  he needs to be freed because  we are on the same level uh in Christ, under God, in Christ as fellow image bearers of God. yep.  All right, so when we were talking earlier you mentioned that something that you had to cut for time was from this uh third part of your sermon on work  and  yeah, a theology of work. So would you just give us a little bit more on that and what did you wish you could include? Yeah, every time I've preached this passage, think previously I have kind of laid out what I call a theology of work.  There's so many passages,  not only this one, but Proverbs is loaded with guidelines about work. uh so my theology of work in about five points, is number one, work is God's plan for good from creation. Work's not a bad thing.  Number two, work is difficult because of sin. So it is marred,  it is scarred. Number three, work is unable to satisfy my deepest needs.  So I can't say, I've got to find what makes me happy and that's, you know, if I fulfill this career, it's going to make me happy. No, it won't. But work is essential. These almost sound, they balance each other out, almost contradictory.  Work is essential to  a  satisfied life. uh Yes, I have to work to eat,  to provide for my family. Paul said, don't work, don't eat. But beyond that, work is fun if you can really get into it. And I have never thought, I can't wait until I retire so I don't have to work anymore.  That's why you're here, guys.  I can't wait for a day off because I don't want to work. every day. I look forward to vacation, but I've never looked forward to  retirement, so I don't have to work anymore.  I'm glad for a lower level of responsibility, uh but to me work is a gift of God,  and it's a hard gift sometimes, but ultimately work is to glorify God. Whatever you do, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all to the glory of God. So that's the fifth point. Glorify God in your work.  Yeah.  Would you say that that's regardless of circumstances,  right? Like what if someone's like, I'm just not in the right job or  I need a career change? Would you say you could still find that same satisfaction and joy regardless of your work? Well, I wouldn't want to be too dogmatic on that one. I think that is I think you ought to see every job and opportunity you have to glorify God, even if it's a hard job,  even if it's a painful job. But  if you find your interest shifting and you find,  would like to try this, and it's a responsible step in terms of caring for yourself and your family, then sure, ah you don't have to stay in one job your entire life, or you don't have to... do the same thing your father did and your grandfather did, you can explore other areas that might work better for you and your gifts and your interests. So I think there's a lot of flexibility there. And what they say the average person starting out today will be in three or four careers. Oh, so much more! When I was a teacher, we had like a counseling class, you know, by our guidance counselor for our kids. she'd come in once a month and one of the things that then she'd also meet with the teachers and say like, here's what you need to be preparing your students for. This is the reality they're going to encounter over the next five, 10 years, right?  So actually the students that I taught the first few years of teaching, They are college graduates now. Yeah. And which is like what? think they were in fifth grade with me. But yeah, we we learned as teachers and then she taught the students that I think they would hold anywhere between 12 and 15 jobs in their lifetime. Wow. Which was was insane to me because I'm like my dad had like one career at the same company the whole time. And that's what steadiness looks like to me. And so like losing um the value of like longevity a little bit, but trading it for, you know, something else. So anyways, yeah, sorry to go back, but yeah, lots of careers.  I've served four churches, but it's all been the same career doing essentially the same thing.  After I got out of college, I had other jobs before that, but yeah, yeah. So yeah, and I  enjoyed, I complained about new jobs too. You can complain on enjoyment at same time.  But I've worked on the farm and I worked for a car dealer and I enjoyed all those things. I have good memories about all those things. And certainly for the years I've been in the church. Yeah. And I just want to bring it back to how you started our Cut For Time episode, which is it all goes back to For the Glory of God, right? So whether it's marriage or parenting or work relationships or just work in general. It's for the glory of God. And so what is just  a thoughtful prompt for us to give people  as they um finish up their time with us a question maybe or something that they can consider that kind of wraps this all up? Well,  I think we need to clarify that. Well, One thing, really, as I was finishing my preparation for the sermon before Sunday, I looked at the verses again and I realized five, six, seven, eight, nine, five verses, all of them have that in it. As you would Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, as to the Lord, not to man, whatever good anyone does, he'll receive back from the Lord. Both their master and yours is in heaven. So some were... is done  joyfully as uh a,  I'm worshiping God as I do the work. Other times it's just buckling down and grunt work, get through it  and  surviving with that. uh I did close Sunday with kind of an odd example,  as I referred to a very wealthy NFL quarterback. Yeah, that stood out to me.  And after the fact, I that was a little weird to go from a slave to an NFL quarterback. That's quite a jump. On the other end, I guess I'm still willing to defend that a little bit in that at whatever extreme you are, you're to live for the Lord, you're to glorify God. so,  I think another passage, Colossians 3,  whatever you do, work hardily for the Lord is not for man. Doing that from the Lord, you'll receive the inheritance. You're serving the Lord Christ.  And so  your work  matters to God. There books written about that. uh work is not a  four-letter dirty word. Work is a wonderful word that is for God's glory. And uh I rejoice in that.  Okay. Thanks, Tom. I appreciate your time today. Okay, well thank you.  Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time.  If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following Sunday's sermon,  you can email them to podcast at faithchurchindie.com  or  text them in to our faith church texting number  and we'll do our best to cover them in next week's episode.  If this conversation blessed you in any way,  we encourage you to share it with others.  We'll be back again next week.