:
Hey, you're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the north side of Indianapolis.  My name is Claire Kingsley.  And I'm Dan Breitwieser. Each week, one of us will sit down with the person who gave Sunday's sermon to discuss their message.  Cut for Time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation,  and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday. Thanks for listening. Hey, Tom, it's my first cut for time back since you got me. Hey, welcome back. Great to see you. Good to have you with us. Thank you. And I'm actually I'm glad to be back in this rhythm. I always enjoy talking to you and our other preaching pastors. Obviously not Nathan. I haven't interviewed him, but just about their sermon and just trying. We'll uncover a little bit more from the passage um in the days following. So I hope this is  beneficial to the people who are listening. It's always something that I look forward to doing. And I know um you've enjoyed  doing the podcast as well. You know,  enjoy interacting with you. Well,  all right. So you mentioned in your sermon,  hey, you've got these four different, we saw the commandments in the Old Testament brought out in this passage. And you said we could have a sermon for each of these, really. They really could be unpacked  in  longer format, and we obviously didn't have that time. So we know we've got a lot of things to get back to and to  say you to cut from your sermon, but before we do, why don't you tell us what was this passage? What are those commandments that we saw? Just give us a refresher, and then we'll jump in. Yeah, okay. I think I can do about two minutes.  Ephesians 4 is really such a unity as a chapter that it's hard to chop it up, and yet It's so full that if you don't, you'll never  unpack it. So it begins with the importance of unity in the church, the gifting of leaders, what it means to grow in Christ in relationship with each other,  and this ongoing process that really has the goal until we attain unity of the faith,  knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. That statement alone really sets the table. and then later to grow up in every way into Him who is the head. So becoming more like Jesus in life and relationships is always the goal, and the primary metaphor that Paul introduces here is to walk. Walk in a manner worthy of Jesus, and that's just the idea of steady progression. And Nick Carter pointed out last week in Ephesians 420, that's what it means to learn Christ. I love that term that he emphasized. But then that introduces a new metaphor of not only just walking steadily, but also changing clothes that you put off the old shirt, you put on the new shirt, uh put on the new clothes. It's about living differently, rejecting the radical self-focus  of  the old life and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds  created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. So that's the big picture of what the Christian life is to be. My passage then in Ephesians 4, 25, and really goes all the way through 6, 9. That wasn't mine, but that develops that in terms of how it works out in all kinds of practical areas, how we live, how we face temptation, how we are set apart from the world, how we use our time well, how we seek God in worship, how to be wise, how to live in healthy marriages and have healthy families and in healthy work world. And so starting with verse 25, I had the first part of that. Paul begins to apply this,  and I presented it in four words that I think relate to all the coming topics. But truth, not lies,  anger, unique category, I think we'll talk about some more,  work, not stealing,  and our use of words  or the power of tongue to build up or tear down.  And so that's what I tried to do, just two or three minutes each on each of those. And then the summary in verses 31 and 32, Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and splendor be put away from you along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another as God in Christ forgave you." And then we slipped over into chapter five, verses one and two. I was assigned that text. I really didn't develop it at all.  Therefore be imitators of God. So comes right back to that initial introduction in Ephesians four at the beginning. uh Be imitators of God. Walk. There's that analogy again, walk in love as Christ loved us, and gave himself up for us a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. So it all comes back to worship too. So that's kind of a summary of what we try to do on Sunday.  Okay. All right. So let's talk about then  how  walking, what walking looks like in relation to these four things. And so we've got some follow-up questions for you.  Let's go ahead and let's talk about anger. You said we would come back to that.  you  know, you had it sounded like the antithesis of like you said, truth, not lies. And you said work, not stealing. But  anger, you didn't give us that opposite. And it's for a specific reason. So why is that? Well, I think the reason I didn't give the opposite of anger is because  It doesn't give it here. It just says, be angry and do not sin.  Do not let the sun go down on your anger. And so in some ways, maybe the antithesis of anger is  righteous anger and unrighteous anger.  And  that's a tough one because  it's hard to think of  anger without there being a uh problem in it. Yeah, we tell  our kids, you know,  you can be angry, you can't be mean. And so I feel like that's like the most simplified version of it for our three year old, know, like, you can be angry, be angry. And I just thought, I don't know, maybe I've misread this passage that I've just assumed it's like, don't be angry, but it is saying be angry. But. Yeah, I think there's something about anger at the beginning level is a response to injustice. That can be a very selfish response because I see what you said to me as mean  and  I'm overreacting to something simple, but there is real  injustice out there  and  it's not wrong to be angry about that. In fact, it's probably wrong not to be angry about it, but how is that anger channeled?  Do I throw up fit? Do I yell and scream? Do I seek revenge?  Or am I seeking ways to right the wrong, to seek justice, to comfort those treated unjustly?  And uh the culture, the state, should be angry at injustice. We have laws in the state of Indiana to contain wrongs and bring justice.  Both criminal law and civil law are designed really to do that in society.  But when you believe injustice has been done to you, and maybe it really has been, I mean, sure, it happens, but... How do you respond when you're insulted? That's where it gets dangerous because then it's hard to know where justice ends and revenge takes over. And when we have to say, God said justice is mine. I will repay, says the Lord. And when do you have to let it go? I kind of just want to sit in that for a second because It was one of the questions I had typed up originally was where is that line? How can you find that line?  I feel like you kind of did just I mean, it's going to be different for every person in every circumstance. But I feel like you defined it pretty clearly just now, like going to you tip over into that point of revenge or resentment or  just, I don't know, just some sort of action that's not in love. Like, is that in there? Yeah. And our. Our emotions, I mean, we're all different emotionally from one another, so you can't necessarily trust that. But I think if I'm getting so worked up, I've got to push pause and say, slow down. Why are you angry? That's what God asked Jonah, you have a right to be angry.  And  what is stirring this? Is it  really that issue? And maybe it is that issue, but then I've doubled down and made it worse  by...  getting sucked into that and allowing that person to get to me. And I have to own that part,  even though they're still guilty for what they did, maybe. But  I can't always judge that. But I can try to reason  with that person and say,  can we work this out? Try to seek peace, as Roman says, as much as possible.  Seek peace with all people.  Okay, so Tom, we did have another question asked and submitted by somebody about anger. And they said, um with anger and sundown, is that more of a generality? Just  maybe a wise thing, but isn't it wise at some times to come back to issues after you've had a night to sleep on it and cool things off?  Yeah,  and I'm  really grateful for this question ah because,  yes, I don't see it  as saying you can't be You can be angry, but at bedtime you've got to shut it off. ah I mean, there's a sense in which to take that literally can be helpful and protect you, but ah there's nothing magic about sundown or bedtime. ah I think it's saying don't let it linger and fester and become a deep bitterness within you. So if you  fully resolve it before you go to bed on any given day, you'll probably blow it because you're going to react inappropriately. You got to get this resolved. you know, you just go after it and then you blow up and make it worse. the hotness of anger  leads to rash and reckless responses  that you'll regret later.  So I just say in that moment, cry out to God and say, help me. I'm mad. I know I'm mad. I'm sorry.  I let this get me so much. but  not to lash out, but to  calm down a bit. And maybe you need a day or a week. I've gone a lot longer than that with things under the surface that I had to process. ah Even in some cases,  years,  that things were still down there somewhere that I had to come out and  deal with after I got more perspective on it. Getting counsel from others.  Just care for where you get your counsel though, because some people will just feed your anger and say, yeah, you've got a right to be angry and you ought to get to them and  the  number of YouTube videos, but so and so destroyed this person with their response. Oh yeah, that was helpful. uh So uh I think the difference between  brooding  and getting angrier versus sad and get aside for the moment. when maybe it's not all settled before you go to bed, ah but you reflect on your own  temptation to angry exchange, or maybe you already had the angry exchange, and so  you've got to get some counsel from a wise person, somebody to pray with you and say, hey, cool it, dude. You've got to get some perspective on this  and leave it in the hands of God.  um I appreciate something that you said in your sermon and I heard you say it again here, which is no matter how justified the anger is, we are always in danger of sin. That really  stuck with me.  I think just being aware of  anger is,  it's not a wrong thing to feel, right? What we're saying is it's okay to feel this way, um but for it to just be something that we treat very cautiously or go pursuant cautiously. oh All right, Tom, what about work? Let's talk about work a little bit. You said,  hey, this is from God. This came before the fall.  Work is good, even though it is totally  in life challenging and stressful and all the things. um But work did come from God. And so would you elaborate a little bit more on that? And then  just a random side note, how does retirement fit in with God's picture of work? Because that is not from the Bible.  read about retirement there. So how does that work? mean, you obviously tried retirement and it didn't work, Tom. Well, yeah, this is a big one. And it's one I have a lot of feelings about. And they're not all settled by any means. But retirements are all a new idea. I Social Security started less than 100 years ago. And before that, your parents get old. They need your help. It's your responsibility or or who else would do it and the community. um So now we have investments, have social security, and  I don't know if that makes it better or not. mean, my social security check each month is a big, big deal.  But um it's so different. But  I don't see that in scripture. I mean, I retired last January 1st, and I went to work again in May 1st. My life didn't change all that much. I was still trying to stay busy, so you can be retired and still serve, and everybody should. But I mean, I don't know. I'm 75 years old on Thanksgiving Day, so I mean, I don't have the energy I once had. But there is a common thought that there's no such thing as retirement in the Bible. In fact, did you just say that? Well, I just said I haven't heard that word in the Bible. okay. Maybe not I don't think it is a word in the Bible. But there's a fascinating passage in Numbers, chapter 8, that priests  could only serve at the temple in the actual offering of the sacrifices between the ages of 25 and 50. They had to retire at 50. Now you read the whole text and it says, oh, they can still help, and they can kind of coach and be a part of it. but their primary working life is 25 to 50. Now that's not the whole story because the priests did rotate and they had their own farms and they said it still works. So that really doesn't necessarily answer the whole thing. But I would say we were not made for retirement. I think to establish 65 as an arbitrary retirement age doesn't make sense to me. We were made to work. And I just don't want to... live the last five, ten, fifteen, twenty-five years of my life and then stand before God and give an account and say,  what'd do with your most productive, experienced years of your life? You wasted it all?  I  don't want to do that. On the other hand, I hope people will understand that as I get older, I've got less strength than give me a break.  So I like our system in some ways, but I'm not sure it's feasible or if it can last long term. uh if retirement means a new beginning of God-glorifying ministry, then that's awesome. And so, I mean, I hope that's what I can do whenever I retire again, whatever the process is. If you want to get things stirred up, John Piper gave a viral sermon about 20 to 25 years ago about this.  And it's based really on his book, Don't Waste Your Life, which is a great book. I highly recommend it.  And if you just Google John Piper Seashell Sermon, you'll find it on YouTube. And it is amazing. You might not like it all, but it's amazing.  Is it you're saying I might not like it all or somebody who is  in close to retirement might not like it all? Yeah. Yeah. Well, as an example, there's a 59-year-old who retires and buys a big boat and goes to the shore and, you know, in John's view, wastes his life for the next 25, 30 years. And so he's challenging us older folks. It's a message given primarily to college students, I believe. Really? OK. And so he's challenging them on the younger side. Don't waste your life. Video games, whatever. But on the older side, don't waste your life just picking up seashells on the seashore. Okay. Okay, that's great. Thanks, Tom, for that reference. Check it out.  All right. So let's talk a little bit about that verse about grieving the spirit. You had mentioned maybe you didn't even get to unpack it as much as you would like  to in the sermon. And what did that mean? And is there a way that  some things would grieve him more than others? Yeah, that's a good question. uh The first thing I want to say about this that I don't think I emphasized is that this reminds us that the Holy Spirit is a person, not a force or tool of God's strength like the cults teach. uh Biblical, Trinitarian theology is that God is one and eternally existing in a loving unity of three equally divine persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And those expressions and emotions, grief is one of them, that we have come from God as a reflection of His image. It's not just a human thing, it's an image of God thing. So Jesus was grieved, and angered, and compassionate, and moved emotionally,  and He was a person, and not just in His humanity, but before that, I believe those things were  part of His eternal  being. And Holy Spirit's the same thing. The Holy Spirit is a person, and the text says, this is an unusual passage, but it says, grieved by us. Now the immediate context is verse 29, the corrupting talk that comes out of your mouth. And I think that is the primary place we have to apply it here. If I use just corrupt talk or demeaning talk or putting you down, that is not only hurting you, but it's grieving the Holy Spirit. and is so dishonoring to God, and that ultimately becomes the greatest sin against God, even if it's also a sin against you, if I speak to you that way. uh But I wouldn't limit it there. I would say any sin is a grief to God. It's a uh besmirching of God's stewardship  of life and words that God has given to us. And so the Holy Spirit can be resisted. There's another text that says that. I didn't write all these down. Quenched, the Holy Spirit's leading you and you just, no, you're not listening. Even blasphemed, which is the unforgivable sin. We could go off in there if you want to. But these are very personal responses, and yet Paul was led to plug it in here on this area of speech. And so what he says about it is things James says about it in terms of the tongue and it's kind of being the leader of our sin issues, uh I think we can't  just ignore that  reality. So that's at least what I would have probably added a little bit more of if we'd had a little more time.  Any other questions here? Yeah, well, let's go ahead and just say, what else did you have to cut for the sermon for the sake of time this Sunday? Well, ah what was...  Cut for Time really was just more examples or illustrations in supporting biblical references. I've preached through Ephesians probably more times than any other book of the Bible in my 49 years of fairly consistent preaching. 20 years ago, I did a series on Ephesians at faith, my second year here, and what I did in 25 minutes on Sunday, I did four sermons of 35 to 40 minutes each. I think it was good this time to consolidate it more. So I'm not complaining about that. I'm just saying that there is so much there if you develop that you illustrated. I actually did very little illustration on Sunday. I didn't feel like I had time for it because I wanted to at least get the heart of the message in.  But examples in regard to  work, we've touched on this a little bit, but I think the Bible has a whole theology of work, of what it means to provide for yourself, to provide for others in need. ultimately working as a reflection of image bearers of God, that God put us in the garden before there was sin, before work was a drudgery, God put man in the garden to work,  and there's dignity in work, there's meaning in work. um know,  ideally you love your work. Now it's always going to be a drudgery too, your hitting head deadlines, your tired, this repetition, all kinds of problems with it. But ultimately, God designed us  to work not as a punishment, but as a gift for our creativity to come out, for our ability to just do a good job to glorify Him. And  I've had more fun working probably than anything I've done.  mean, ah it's  and yet it's also hard. And I got to get out of here. ah But that's the tension of the uh presence of sin and yet still it's a good world that God made and good work that God made for us to do. um So yeah, I guess that's pretty much what I'd say there. Okay, thank you.  All right, the last thing I wanted to talk with you about  is  what you said was your favorite word, one of your favorite words in the Bible. And I actually think that we've talked about this on A Cup For Time before, and it's just been a while. Does it sound familiar to you? Well, um I'm familiar with the idea, certainly.  I went off on a bit of a tangent in second service when you were present  that I did not even touch in first service. OK. The recording of this sermon that's online won't have this piece. OK. ah But I just spontaneously put it in, but uh I just said, you know,  I said the word for tender-hearted, is that the word that's used in this translation? Yeah, tender-hearted, uh forgiving one another as God in Christ forgave you.  It's  the word  from,  isplaknos is the Greek word,  and it really refers to your guts.  your bowels, your intestines, it can be used more broadly kind of your whole inner  abdominal area, not the heart. You know, we  love people with all our hearts  and then we hate people with all their, you know, their gut. I hate your guts.  So that's our crazy culture.  But  in I think other cultures today and in that culture, the seed of emotions is more a little lower down than the heart. It's the spleen, the liver, the intestines,  the gut, the whole range of that part of the body, the seed of emotions. And so that's what  I was getting to. It's this, we use the word visceral,  viscera, that refers to our intestines as the seed of compassion.  so it is,  I mean, if you're upset, where do you feel it? You don't feel it in your heart. You feel it in your gut.  this emptiness, anger, whatever. Anger often goes to your gut.  And he's saying, you know, turn that into  the word you.  We have it in a lot of our English words, but jus blognos means good guts,  good bowels, good intestines.  And so tender heartedness for our culture is a good way to translate it.  Just bring the fruit of the Spirit of tenderness and gentleness and kindness into that response  and  you'll be a lot better off. In the King James Version, it still says something like tender-hearted, but in a couple of other verses it refers to vows of mercies, uh kindness, humbleness, Colossians 3.12, and so it hangs on to some of that old language  that uh Yeah, it may not be a literal translation, but it's actually a more accurate translation for American 21st century culture to say tenderheartedness. So  is that helpful?  So how has it become  your favorite word over time? Is it just because you love the  Greek word?  I'm going defend myself a little bit.  I  think it was my favorite word for that one second in the sermon. OK.  That's the nature of human crazy communication and it was just, it was kind of, went off on a tangent and I think it is a fun thing to see how the language had changed and so I said that. But yeah, I think it would be quite a ways down on my favorite word list. Okay, do you wish you could substitute it with something else on this podcast? What would it be? Oh my, I don't know. I mean,  I'm tempted to give the right answer instead of the honest answer, because I'm not sure what the honest answer is, in terms of love and compassion and kindness and all those things that I'm not that the Holy Spirit is working on me in, it all comes back to the fruit of the Spirit. mean, that term is used in Galatians 5, but it is all over Paul. It is all over Ephesians 4. that what is the reflection of our being Christians and impacted by the gospel, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control. And I didn't get those in the right order, but I think I got them all out there.  That's great. All right. Thank you, Tom, for your time today. Well, thank you and welcome back. And I know you're carrying a heavy load with a husband, four kids and a job and whatever else is going on in your life. But we are so grateful for your  involvement with us  in this podcast and everything else you do at Faith Church. Thanks, Tom. I appreciate that. Thank you for saying that. And  I'm sure Arthur will join us  on a future podcast and more many podcasts. So yeah, OK.  Okay, thank you for being flexible  and time. really appreciate it. Yeah, well, thank you. oh Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time.  If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following Sunday's sermon,  you can email them to podcast at faithchurchindie.com  or  text them in to our Faith Church texting number  and we'll do our best to cover them in next week's episode.  If this conversation blessed you in any way,  we encourage you to share it with others.  We'll be back again next week.