00:00:06 [Speaker 1] Hey. 00:00:06 [Speaker 1] You're listening to Cut for Time, a podcast from Faith Church located on the North Side Of Indianapolis. 00:00:12 [Speaker 1] My name is Claire Kingsley. 00:00:13 [Speaker 2] And I'm Dan Breitwieser. 00:00:15 [Speaker 2] Each week, one of us will sit down with the person who gave Sunday's sermon to discuss their message. 00:00:19 [Speaker 2] Cut for Time is a look behind the scenes of sermon preparation, and they'll share with us a few things that we didn't hear from the sermon on Sunday. 00:00:26 [Speaker 2] Thanks for listening. 00:00:30 [Speaker 3] Hi, Tom. 00:00:30 [Speaker 3] It is my last cut for time for the foreseeable future because we've got dance stepping in. 00:00:37 [Speaker 3] What do I have going on? 00:00:38 [Speaker 3] Yeah. 00:00:39 [Speaker 3] Go on. 00:00:39 [Speaker 3] I mean, I was told by quite a few people when I got up on stage, they're like, oh, is she pregnant? 00:00:45 [Speaker 3] Just joking, obviously, because it's very obvious. 00:00:48 [Speaker 4] Yeah. 00:00:49 [Speaker 3] So anticipating this baby. 00:00:51 [Speaker 3] Yeah. 00:00:52 [Speaker 4] Well, we're sort of sure to be praying for you and and your whole family as you go through another addition and all the process of getting there. 00:01:00 [Speaker 3] Thanks. 00:01:00 [Speaker 3] We we need it, and we appreciate that. 00:01:03 [Speaker 4] Yeah. 00:01:04 [Speaker 3] So let's just jump in because we have a lot to cover in this cover time. 00:01:07 [Speaker 3] You gave a few allusions to it, or mentions to it in your sermon saying, I could cover this cup for time. 00:01:14 [Speaker 3] I cover this. 00:01:15 [Speaker 3] But then we've also got, like, six questions, so we've got a lot. 00:01:18 [Speaker 3] So we're gonna do a rapid fire episode. 00:01:20 [Speaker 3] So let's start with your one minute, two minute recap from your sermon on Sunday. 00:01:25 [Speaker 4] Okay. 00:01:26 [Speaker 4] Well, after the lengthy narrative in acts 27 of the Mediterranean Sea voyage and a big storm and a shipwreck and arriving on Malta, our text for last Sunday was acts twenty eight one to six, a very interesting, very short drama narrative of arriving on shore, cold and wet, campfire to warm him up, and a snake coming out of the fire to penetrate Paul's hand. 00:01:50 [Speaker 4] And the islanders' belief was that Paul must be a murderer, and so he's gonna die. 00:01:55 [Speaker 4] And, he's escaped his life from a shipwreck only for justice to catch up with him and the snake. 00:02:00 [Speaker 4] Well, that didn't happen so that he said he's a god and he must be a god to have survived that scary of a snake bite. 00:02:08 [Speaker 4] And now my first thought is there's not much here for a sermon, but as I reviewed the text, a couple of the things really stood out to me, and and I I really enjoyed developing this even though very limited time. 00:02:21 [Speaker 4] But both of the issues related to what I call universal characteristics of all people groups based on the fact that we're created in the image of God. 00:02:30 [Speaker 4] And the two issues evident in this text are, number one, the importance of kindness in human relationships and application of the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. 00:02:43 [Speaker 4] There's almost every culture I understand has some kind of a saying like that. 00:02:49 [Speaker 4] Maybe in the negative, don't do to others what you don't want them to do to you. 00:02:52 [Speaker 4] But Mhmm. 00:02:54 [Speaker 4] The pagan islanders certainly reflected this. 00:02:56 [Speaker 4] They showed this kindness, and I introduced this wonderful Greek word, philanthropia, love of people, that they showed to the shipwreck survivors with targeted practical, meeting of their immediate need for for warmth. 00:03:11 [Speaker 4] And then in the account of Paul's snake bite incident, their sense of justice came out that a supposed crime was being justly punished. 00:03:20 [Speaker 4] Now they were wrong. 00:03:21 [Speaker 4] They had a distorted view of all this, but it does reveal that justice, the law of consequences is really universal in all cultures even though tragically distorted, but, nonetheless, a remnant of the image of God and all people and the justice is important. 00:03:37 [Speaker 4] Now I'll confess, I oversold the whole justice point in the faith news article last week because I really didn't develop it very much. 00:03:46 [Speaker 4] I didn't have time to develop it very much, but, I just wanted to recognize that the balance that both kindness and justice come from the image of God in us, reflecting God's holiness, God's love, or truth and grace in Jesus. 00:03:59 [Speaker 4] It's really the same balance of of of of who God is and who we are supposed to be because of who God is. 00:04:06 [Speaker 4] Malformed, distorted, but still there at the core of what it means to be human and to be made in God's image. 00:04:12 [Speaker 4] So that's kind of a summary of what we did. 00:04:14 [Speaker 3] Okay. 00:04:15 [Speaker 3] Well done, Tom. 00:04:16 [Speaker 3] I mean, I also you know, you initially initially said that you looked at the text and you're like, I mean, what what is here for us, you know, to preach from? 00:04:25 [Speaker 3] And I had the same thought when I was reading through the text in preparation. 00:04:29 [Speaker 3] I'm like, oh, poor Tom. 00:04:32 [Speaker 3] But, no, you did a great job of developing those points, so thank you for your time and interest. 00:04:37 [Speaker 4] Time and scripture, suddenly you realize, hey. 00:04:39 [Speaker 4] There's a lot more here than I than I thought at first. 00:04:42 [Speaker 3] Always. 00:04:42 [Speaker 3] Probably always is true. 00:04:44 [Speaker 3] Yeah. 00:04:45 [Speaker 3] Alright. 00:04:46 [Speaker 3] So I'm gonna try and, ask you questions in order in an order that would make sense from least significant to more significant application. 00:04:54 [Speaker 3] Okay. 00:04:55 [Speaker 3] Okay. 00:04:56 [Speaker 3] So just in, talking about this text overall, how does one know the difference between descriptive and prescriptive text, and how do you balance taking prescriptive behaviors from descriptive texts? 00:05:11 [Speaker 3] Is that something that occasionally happens with preachers? 00:05:15 [Speaker 4] Yeah. 00:05:15 [Speaker 4] Yeah. 00:05:15 [Speaker 4] It it's it's not always easy. 00:05:18 [Speaker 4] I'll I'll admit that. 00:05:20 [Speaker 4] My simple answer is descriptive simply reports what happened or what was said. 00:05:27 [Speaker 4] Our belief in the inspiration and accuracy of the Bible doesn't mean that every example in the Bible is for us to follow. 00:05:35 [Speaker 4] But descriptive doesn't just mean telling stories about people. 00:05:39 [Speaker 4] Descriptive also includes wonderful descriptions of the character and holiness of God or the attributes of God. 00:05:46 [Speaker 4] And those are crucial for understanding who God is and who we are. 00:05:49 [Speaker 4] So the inspiration of scripture does not minimize that at all because it's descriptive. 00:05:54 [Speaker 4] But then you have the accounts of humanity of great heroic acts or great evil. 00:06:01 [Speaker 4] And then the question or some to see more in the middle in which which were are worthy of emulation and which are say, no. 00:06:08 [Speaker 4] This is not the way to live. 00:06:10 [Speaker 4] And so the prescriptive is is more definite words. 00:06:14 [Speaker 4] God said to do this, thus says the lord, the law of Moses given to us, the words of Jesus, the apostles. 00:06:22 [Speaker 4] And, so so those are I I would say that's the primary distinction between the two. 00:06:30 [Speaker 4] But when is an act in scripture, a great act of heroism and courage like Joshua or David? 00:06:39 [Speaker 4] Or what about when our biblical heroes do things that are highly questionable, like Abraham saying his wife as a sister or David with Bathsheba and Uriah. 00:06:48 [Speaker 4] Obviously, horrible examples. 00:06:51 [Speaker 4] And, so it's helpful for us. 00:06:53 [Speaker 4] There's something to learn there in terms of what not to do or in terms of, what to do. 00:06:59 [Speaker 4] So, how do you balance taking prescriptive and and descriptive texts? 00:07:09 [Speaker 4] It it it it does require looking at the prescriptive passages to say, clearly, this is what god calls us to do, and you can evaluate some of the descriptive behavior of the kings and others in light of the clear statements of this is right, this is wrong, this is because this is 00:07:27 [Speaker 3] Are you okay. 00:07:29 [Speaker 3] Alright. 00:07:30 [Speaker 3] So in this text, there's a snake. 00:07:33 [Speaker 3] And whenever I hear of snake in the bible, I immediately like, an antenna goes up. 00:07:39 [Speaker 3] I'm like, should I is this just a snake, or is there some symbolism going on here back to the garden? 00:07:44 [Speaker 3] So, what do you have to say about that? 00:07:47 [Speaker 4] Yeah. 00:07:47 [Speaker 4] My my take on that and and I'm sure there have been others who would, origin, for example, in the early early church. 00:07:55 [Speaker 4] He, found everything to be a symbol of something. 00:08:01 [Speaker 4] I personally don't see anything in this passage that warrants that, to tie it back to the snake in the Garden of Eden or something like that. 00:08:09 [Speaker 4] I really think this is simply an example of what happened. 00:08:13 [Speaker 4] And, snakes are part of God's good creation even though they're used as symbols of of evil. 00:08:19 [Speaker 4] And that's true of other animals that some are symbols of evil and some are symbols of good, and some serve in both categories such as a lion. 00:08:28 [Speaker 3] Alright. 00:08:28 [Speaker 3] So this text, at the very end, the islanders say he must be a god. 00:08:34 [Speaker 3] This is the second time that Paul has been mistaken for a god in the book of acts. 00:08:39 [Speaker 3] Why do you think Luke has chosen to acknowledge this occurrence on more than one occasion? 00:08:46 [Speaker 4] You know, that's hard to get into Luke's shoes in terms of why he included what he included. 00:08:52 [Speaker 4] I trust the holy spirit was guiding on what would would would be important for us. 00:08:57 [Speaker 4] I I think it's important for us to know the world in which the New Testament is written, especially the gentile world, of their belief in gods and goddesses, and that everything is interpreted in terms of what the gods and goddesses do and sort of a fatalistic, mindset that there's really nothing we could do about it. 00:09:17 [Speaker 4] We're just victims of the gods and the goddesses. 00:09:21 [Speaker 4] Now our culture is radically different. 00:09:23 [Speaker 4] We don't think the supernatural I mean, well, a lot of people do, but a lot of people don't think the supernatural even if they don't believe in God, is is really relevant. 00:09:35 [Speaker 4] But, so, yeah, I just think he gives us a really good cross section of the kinds of things you run into when you're taking the gospel to the world, and you're dealing with a with a culture that's very confused. 00:09:50 [Speaker 4] And so Paul just jumps right into that, and he almost got killed the other time, maybe more dangerous than the snake bite because, they they said he was God or they said he was Hermes and Barnabas was Zeus based on the healing. 00:10:07 [Speaker 4] And then after they said, no. 00:10:09 [Speaker 4] We're not gods, then they decided they'd kill him. 00:10:11 [Speaker 4] So they they almost stoned him to death. 00:10:13 [Speaker 4] And so that's one of Paul's near death experiences of which he had many. 00:10:19 [Speaker 3] Yeah. 00:10:19 [Speaker 3] It actually just feels like, deja vu. 00:10:23 [Speaker 3] Sometimes when you're, like, when we're reading in scripture, I'm like, wasn't he just were we just trying to get out of a dangerous situation, and here we are again? 00:10:30 [Speaker 3] You know? 00:10:32 [Speaker 3] Alright. 00:10:33 [Speaker 3] So if you were in Paul's shoes, would you have had any fear that this snake bite was going to be the death of you? 00:10:39 [Speaker 3] Was his faith in God's promise of protection at all shaken by this encounter? 00:10:43 [Speaker 4] Well, if I were there, if it was me in that situation, yeah, I'd have been terrified. 00:10:49 [Speaker 4] I don't like snakes. 00:10:50 [Speaker 4] I don't like spiders. 00:10:52 [Speaker 4] But was Paul's faith shaken? 00:10:55 [Speaker 4] I don't think so. 00:10:57 [Speaker 4] I mean, I assume he still had normal feelings and reactions of fear in certain situations. 00:11:02 [Speaker 4] I'm sure it was a a jolt in his, system to have that snake came out of the fire. 00:11:08 [Speaker 4] He had adrenaline rushes too. 00:11:10 [Speaker 4] But in terms of his overall reflection on it, he just constantly lived with the imminence of death over him. 00:11:18 [Speaker 4] And yet he writes in Philippians, to live is Christ, to die is gain. 00:11:24 [Speaker 4] I'm ready to go whenever God calls me. 00:11:27 [Speaker 4] And so I love that example as I get older, for example, and know my years are mostly gone. 00:11:34 [Speaker 4] I don't look forward to death. 00:11:36 [Speaker 4] I do look forward to seeing Jesus, but I just so want more and more of Paul's attitude that got nothing to worry about here, because, my future is with Jesus. 00:11:49 [Speaker 4] So and I think that was his attitude. 00:11:51 [Speaker 3] Okay. 00:11:52 [Speaker 3] Okay. 00:11:56 [Speaker 3] Alright. 00:11:56 [Speaker 3] So, you had mentioned a few times throughout your sermon that you had things that you couldn't fully develop, specifically around the peace of justice. 00:12:05 [Speaker 3] So what would you if you had more time to talk about it, what would you have liked been able to include in your sermon? 00:12:12 [Speaker 4] Well and because I knew I had limited time, I, didn't even develop a lot. 00:12:17 [Speaker 4] So it's not like I had a bunch of it ready for you and then had to cut it. 00:12:22 [Speaker 4] But just the sense, I knew that I had induced a huge topic with huge implications and that I wasn't able to deliver in the in the limited time. 00:12:34 [Speaker 4] I'm also aware that justice issues in the American political climate today are really hot issues, and sometimes politics wins out older what we see in scripture or people argue about that. 00:12:50 [Speaker 4] And so, I I want to honor in our church context, certainly, the diversity of thought about these issues. 00:13:00 [Speaker 4] At the same time, I think we have to come to grips with what it means to have a just society and how that impacts our neighbors. 00:13:10 [Speaker 4] What's the government's role? 00:13:12 [Speaker 4] I touched on that briefly, but not very much. 00:13:15 [Speaker 4] What's the church's role or the individual Christian's role? 00:13:20 [Speaker 4] And I have written on that in the past when I used to write for the, Indianapolis Star that I believe the the government, for example, has a responsibility to maintain justice and borders and such things. 00:13:33 [Speaker 4] Christians have a responsibility to reach out and love our neighbors, regardless of where they're from or what the context is. 00:13:42 [Speaker 4] And, the complexity of the government's role in how we deal with such things as immigration, is is is is challenging. 00:13:55 [Speaker 4] But I do think the biblical, material old and new testament emphasizes both the believers response of love and care, and kings in the old testament are also responsible to be concerned about the welfare of the people and the welcoming of the stranger, and that's very much in the law. 00:14:17 [Speaker 4] You welcome the stranger, you meet their needs, you include them, you let them glean your fields, and, you know, it's it's a very, very big project. 00:14:28 [Speaker 4] Our our good friend, Chet Wood, has developed so much on this theme that is really, really helpful. 00:14:36 [Speaker 4] And, there'll still be diversity of thought, and that's fine. 00:14:38 [Speaker 4] We don't have to agree on everything, but we do have to come to grips with these these biblical texts on caring for the people around us, whatever their background. 00:14:48 [Speaker 3] So on this idea of just our our culture and, like, holding both living in this culture and living in 2025, being believers as a part of, a church body, and then, relating it to this text, I think, like, in the same way that these islanders cared so deeply about justice. 00:15:10 [Speaker 3] We have people that, are not walking with the Lord and also care deeply about justice and want us to care deeply about justice the way they also care deeply. 00:15:20 [Speaker 3] And just then, we could potentially feel we could care just as deeply, but because we walk with the Lord, it changes the way that we pursue justice. 00:15:33 [Speaker 3] And so can you just give us, maybe just a few takeaways, whether it's just, like, personal example from your life of how, you have pursued justice, but maybe it looked differently than how the world would think that, justice should be pursued because you're a Christ follower or, how we could, just live for Christ differently in a Christ honoring way also care about these issues that our neighbors are carrying about. 00:16:09 [Speaker 3] Does that make sense? 00:16:10 [Speaker 3] Like, we can care with them, but also it might look different. 00:16:14 [Speaker 4] Yeah. 00:16:15 [Speaker 4] Well, I I think the thing that stood out to me most in this passage is that whether a believer in Jesus Christ or not, God has put within us as part of being his image bearers, this sense of what it means to be kind and to be just. 00:16:38 [Speaker 4] And that's not just about holding criminals accountable. 00:16:44 [Speaker 4] It's about, caring for the needs of people as well. 00:16:49 [Speaker 4] And, I I think that the example of our culture, just like the islanders, is that there are people who don't know Jesus at all who are incredibly kind and care for justice. 00:17:07 [Speaker 4] If I could give an example Yep. 00:17:09 [Speaker 1] Yep. 00:17:09 [Speaker 4] You know, I had my knees both replaced in the last year and a half, and I did therapy, at a wonderful place. 00:17:18 [Speaker 4] The two women working primarily there, there were others that came and went, but one of them was a Hindu. 00:17:24 [Speaker 4] One of them, I'd never figured out what her background was. 00:17:29 [Speaker 4] And the last day well, the culture of that place was so kind. 00:17:35 [Speaker 4] It was so welcoming. 00:17:37 [Speaker 4] It was so friendly. 00:17:38 [Speaker 4] You just felt cared for there apart from the actual therapy. 00:17:43 [Speaker 4] And so the very last day, I asked this other woman. 00:17:46 [Speaker 4] I said, you know, you guys have been so good. 00:17:48 [Speaker 4] You have this marvelous atmosphere here. 00:17:51 [Speaker 4] I just said, is there a religious element in that for you? 00:17:55 [Speaker 4] And she said, no. 00:17:56 [Speaker 4] Not at all. 00:17:56 [Speaker 4] I don't have any religious background. 00:17:59 [Speaker 4] Her husband's, has a Catholic background, so, she's a little bit exposed to it there, but she just grew up in a very kind, wonderful, nice family. 00:18:10 [Speaker 4] That may be the hardest person in the world to share the gospel with. 00:18:14 [Speaker 3] Yeah. 00:18:14 [Speaker 3] Nicer than I am. 00:18:17 [Speaker 4] So I think that's we need to be careful that we don't just there is a difference between believer and a non believer. 00:18:22 [Speaker 4] That divide is sharp. 00:18:24 [Speaker 4] Yes. 00:18:25 [Speaker 4] But in terms of the way we live and relate to each other, sometimes it almost seems the opposite of way it ought to be in terms of who's nice and who's not so nice. 00:18:35 [Speaker 4] And that concerns me in today's political culture where everybody's well, I'm gonna really put them in their place and those kinds of attitudes when maybe truth your your view of truth may have been expressed, but it wasn't expressed with love or kindness or gentleness. 00:18:52 [Speaker 4] And, so social media, table news, all those things today are just so cutthroat on all sides. 00:19:02 [Speaker 4] And, it's it's not a good example for us, and we live in that muck all the time, it seems today. 00:19:09 [Speaker 4] And I think we need to figure out ways to extract ourselves from that and and make sure we're practicing kindness in our effort to express justice as well. 00:19:19 [Speaker 3] Yeah. 00:19:19 [Speaker 3] Leading with kindness. 00:19:21 [Speaker 4] Yeah. 00:19:21 [Speaker 4] Leading with kindness. 00:19:22 [Speaker 4] That's absolutely well good way of saying it. 00:19:25 [Speaker 4] Yeah. 00:19:25 [Speaker 3] Good. 00:19:26 [Speaker 3] Alright, Tom. 00:19:27 [Speaker 3] Well, well done on rapid fire episode of Cut for Time and answering all these questions. 00:19:32 [Speaker 3] Thank you so much for taking the time to 00:19:35 [Speaker 4] be here. 00:19:35 [Speaker 3] Thank you. 00:19:36 [Speaker 4] Okay. 00:19:37 [Speaker 4] Have a great day. 00:19:38 [Speaker 3] Thanks. 00:19:38 [Speaker 3] You too. 00:19:39 [Speaker 3] Bye, Tom. 00:19:39 [Speaker 4] Bye. 00:19:43 [Speaker 1] Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Cut for Time. 00:19:46 [Speaker 1] If you wish to submit questions to our pastors following Sunday's sermon, you can email them to podcast@faithchurchindy.com or text them in to our Faith Church texting number, and we'll do our best to cover them in next week's episode. 00:20:02 [Speaker 1] If this conversation blessed you in any way, we encourage you to share it with others. 00:20:07 [Speaker 1] We'll be back again next week.