Austin Price: Happy New Year everybody, and welcome in for another episode of Vol Club Confidential. I'm your host Austin Price of quest.com. Coming up tonight on the show, we've got Tennessee head basketball coach Rick Barnes. It's an exciting episode. Can't wait to deep dive on Coach Barnes and his career. Over 700 wins closing down on 800 for his illustrious career. But before we do that, we'll bring in Hunter Baddour of the Vol Club and Hunter, back in December, back before Christmas, we had the holiday with Hoops event and a great turnout here at Spire at the volunteer Hunter Baddour: Club. Absolutely, and first of all, congratulations to you Austin, for making it through another portal season. Yeah, not a lot of sleepless nights and you do great Austin Price: Job. Less hair up here and there's more gray in here. Hunter Baddour: But yeah, we had our kickoff basketball event had about 200 people that came. Dalton Connect, Jordan Gainey, Josiah, Jordan James, we're all in attendance. Coach Barnes as well and tremendous turnout and I think people who brought their kids really had a worthwhile time. Austin Price: When you look at basketball season now that we're into the month of January, get into February, there's going to be basketball tailgates, which is exciting. Hunter Baddour: We had a great showing for our final football tailgate in Orlando I thought this fall. Our events team did a tremendous job with our tailgates throughout the season, but capped it off with a great tailgate in Orlando. And yes, now we're switching gears and we're going to have a much more basketball related events than we did in 2023. We're going to have tailgates and watch parties and a few other things. We've got coming down the pipeline, Austin Price: Tennessee's basketball team continuing to roll on as we roll into the month of January. The SEC season is starting up. Tailgate season for basketball is starting up, and then of course baseball season just right around the corner for Tony Vital and Company, which means strips to the porch for you guys and a chance for Ball club members to interact with the Tennessee baseball team. We'll have coverage of all of that right here with the volunteer club, but tonight's guest is very special to me. It's a deep dive on Tennessee head basketball coach Rick Barnes. Coach, you've been here several years now. What's it mean to you to be the head basketball coach at Tennessee? Rick Barnes: You know, all one, it's a blessing because when I came here, when I left Texas, I was there for 17 years and honestly thought that's where I would finish my career, But it didn't end that way. And I think the good Lord for this opportunity and Dave Hart was the person that hired me at the time. And being here what's really, I've told many, many people growing up in Hickory, North Carolina, which is say less than three hours from Knoxville. And my wife actually spent one year here and got her degree from University of Tennessee. I had no idea how much the Vol Nation loves their athletic department. I had no idea. When I think about it being here and a guy, when I first got here, a guy by the name of Kevin Feltner who used to run the Tennessee Bobcats told me the first time he met me, he said, you have no idea how big Tennessee basketball is and how much people here love Tennessee basketball. And I didn't when I got here, I had no idea what it was going to be like, but after being here and we had some tough getting it started, but when I got here, the one thing that Dave Hart said to me said, we need to have a program and not a winning team. And we've tried to do that and I've been blessed to have great coaches that have come here with me. Some have come and gone and they're doing extremely well. Then we've been able to attract the guys we got here right now. And I do believe we've got the best coaching staff in the country. But it means that, again, that I'm blessed to have this opportunity. I think it's an incredible place to live. I think the support here from top to bottom has been great since I've been here and I've loved where we are. We want more from a basketball program. We'd like to be the team that plays on Monday and wins it all and that will be our goal every year. But I'm really proud of the players that have come through and helped us get it where it is. And I've often talked about you got to be one of the every year you got to be one of those programs that everybody says they're going to have a chance. And I hope that we are getting closer there, but then like I said, I hope that we can play on Monday and get it done. Austin Price: How much has, I guess the philosophy changed as transfer portal, NIL, all that stuff kind of enters into all of college athletics. How much do you have to kind of adapt and evolve kind of your line of thinking when it comes to how you handle recruiting versus transfer portal versus all that? Rick Barnes: Well, I think anytime you're in a leadership position at any, I don't care what you do, you've got to be a learner. You've got to continue to learn and know that there's something that you can learn every single day. And when you go back, I'm getting close to 50 years in this business, and you think about how the rules alone has changed. And back then you had to deal with rule changes. Every year there was something going on with recruiting, different calendars coming in here, there, whatever. But you're right, you've got to adapt. And where we are today, obviously the two most probably significant rules outside of the rules of the games that have changed through the years, the line moving back, the clock getting shorter and all that has been the one-time transfer portal and the NIL, I mean because you think about it and how do you adapt? I think that you almost have to look at things now when I first got in it, everything was through a four year window. You looked at it that way and you knew that you were trying to build and have that stability and everything mattered. Now I still think everything matters. I believe that our job is to help young people get educated. I think our job is to help people grow and learn how to handle not just the good times, but the tough times. But with the one time transfer, it's hard to talk about commitment, loyalty because everything's kind of what's happening today, what can I do today? And there's always been tampering in sports that people can talk about. And now with what it is today, and you've had to learn how to deal with that in the past. But is it more prevalent today? No question. Now, the NIL I've never been against. I never understood why players couldn't work, make money while they're in school because I went to, at the time it was an NAIA school and most of my guys weren't on scholarship. And I was a guy that had to work my way through school in terms of not just, I did get scholarship money, I got money from government based on my mom's financial situation, but for me to have anything else, pay for my car insurance, all that I had to work and back when the NCAA made it so difficult just to get somebody a job, it was ridiculous. And now again, I'm all for name, image and likeness. And if guys can do that, take care of their business that they're here to do, I'm for all of it and the transfer portal, whether you like it or not, but I could sit here and make a case. In some ways it's easier because think about it. I mean, we spend sometimes two, three years recruiting a guy and then knowing that you might not get 'em and now you can put together a team in 10 days, Austin Price: That's pretty crazy. Rick Barnes: So it is when you think, I mean you can look at it any way you want to look at it, but do I still believe in recruiting high school players in development? I do, but I also know that you've got to be adaptive, as you said, and at the end of the year when you've got a chance to fill your roster with whatever it is you think you need, you're able to do that much easier. Austin Price: What has the volunteer club, Tennessee's collective meant to Tennessee basketball? Because you talk about being a big proponent of NIL. What's it meant to your Rick Barnes: Players? Well, one, I know the players appreciate it. I do know this that a number of my players is not only, and I haven't spent a lot of time talking to about it, just I know I listen and I hear, I know a bunch of those guys have been able to help their families, whether it's helping them through tough times like Zika, think about what he's gone through since he's been losing everything. But then just being able to fly their parents to games where they can really see 'em play because this time flies by. And I mean, when I think of Josiah and the time we spent and Santi, I was talking to them about it actually today. I mean, when those guys got here, it was a transition. And I don't know if you remember back then when Grant and all those guys had left and all at once, LaMonte can't finish. He has to step away in December and Santi comes in here with two days practice and Josiah is a freshman and coming off a year where he had dealt with some injuries too, those guys would tell you, I think honestly that was, even though they were playing, it wasn't a lot of fun because people's expectations, and as much as our fans have expectations, I can tell you Austin, they'll never be as high as ours because as much time as we put into it. But when it's not going well, they certainly have their opinions. And the longer I've been in it, it doesn't bother me one bit, but they're young and I know they're involved in that. I know they read it and I know they're into it. I think they would tell you it is tough on them when they come in and people are expecting great things from 'em. And believe me, they don't want to disappoint anybody. They don't. None of us do. But the fact is, that's where it is today. What concerns me with the NIL, the one thing is you can go back and hear coaches, football, basketball, baseball. You can hear 'em after a game. When writers, and I do think for the most part, coaches try to protect our players, but when they hit hard direct questions about so-and-so's not playing well, you go back years ago, the one thing that every coach would say is, look, they're not getting paid. Austin Price: They're not Rick Barnes: Getting paid. They're students. Well now people think because they're getting paid, they should be treated different. And I think that they're supposed to say, well, they're getting that kind of money. They should be able to take criticism, step out and all that. I still think they're young kids, young people, whether we want, I mean to me they're kids, but maybe they don't want to be called kids, but they're young people still finding their way. And it's our job to help 'em. And we're always going to try to protect our players to the utmost. And with all this said, you talk about coaches have to adapt, universities have to adapt in terms of, and I think that our university has done a great job. I mean, they got early with it. And today, if you're going to be in the ball game, the NIL is a big part of it. And if you don't think that you're kidding yourself. Austin Price: Let's go back to growing up in Hickory. You kind of come from humble beginnings and in real American success story kind. Just take us through your early years and what I guess made you the way you are. Rick Barnes: Well, Austin, I would tell you humble would be a good word, but my son's a missionary and has been a missionary in the Middle East for a long time. And being able to travel to parts of the world where he lives, I never worried about eating. We always had something on the table. It could be good old fried liver mush, but it was good. And we always had bread, potatoes and all that. And I grew up, my father separated from my mom divorced. I might've been five or six, I really don't remember it. I wish I would've had a chance to get to know my father more. I do know one night I was at home in Texas and I just had an urge to find out more about my dad. And I called my uncle who still living. He's in his nineties now. And I asked him, I said, Henry, tell me about my dad. And he made me cry. He said, your dad was a wonderful man and didn't really want to leave you guys, but it didn't work out. And my mom then worked as hard as she could and to make sure that we had what we needed. She was a proud mom and she loved us dearly. And her mom and dad, who I actually call her mother mom, I call my mother mother. And I called my grandmother mama and I called my grandfather daddy and I called my birth biological father, daddy Hall, that was his name. But growing up there, it was really interesting. I didn't know this and actually told my brother, one of my brothers, Tommy had gotten arrested and my grandfather again, who I called daddy, said, you got to go up to the police station with me. And I didn't understand why until I got there. And when the officer slid the paper through the wind and said, you need to write your name here, signed this to bell him out, my grandfather said, I'm going to make my mark and my grandson will sign my name. And I'm looking at him like What? I did not ever in my wildest imagination not realize that my grandfather and grandmother couldn't read or write. And I knew, I knew my mom and father had quit school in the eighth grade back then and all we were told as a kid, you've got to graduate from high school and get a job. No one ever mentioned college. It was never a thought. I don't even think I really realized anything about it. And then I love my childhood. I tell you what, I grew up with three brothers and a sister, and my sister was the second. And my older brother, Toby, I don't remember him ever not working. And I can remember he worked at Kentucky Fried Chicken. We had Kentucky Fried Chicken until the boy, I had a hard time eating it later on because he'd bring it home at night. We'd have it morning, noon and night. And then my sister got killed in a car accident going into my, I fell the first grade, so I should have been going into the ninth grade, but I was going into the eighth grade and it really did rock my world and my little brother especially because when my mom was working a lot, she really took care of him. And I was out. I don't remember ever not working. I had some kind of job as a kid, whether it's mowing grass, cleaning the floors at the seven 11, working at Davis, so working at the pool room, just anything I could do sweeping floors to make money. But basketball, the one difference in me and my brothers, I was the one, and I don't know how it all happened. I was the one that got into sports and I really fell in love with baseball in the early sixties. Certainly those early Yankee teams. I loved them all. I loved those things. And I was telling someone the other day, this is the first time that I didn't watch the World Series in my life and I can't, I don't know why and I loved baseball, but I remember back when I was in grade school, they'd let you out of school on the day of the World Series, they'd let you go home. The World Series baseball was that big to this country. And then I lived through the time when integration came in, I was a seventh grader at College Park Junior High School, the first year they integrated the schools. And then when I got to the high school, really three and a half years later, it just still wasn't equal. The black students weren't allowed to be how cheerleading and the student council and all that was a popularity contest. They didn't have the numbers. And so my sophomore year, we had some terrific teams and once they integrated the two high schools there in Hickory, but the black students decided to walk out and boycott because, and it wasn't fair, it was never fair the way it was done, but the walkout, it really caused some of my friends a chance to do something they love. And that was to play basketball. And we were an absolutely horrible team. We won one game. And I tell my team the story every year, we won one game that year. That's why when we get ready to play teams that everybody thinks that we should beat, all I know is I was on the team that won one game. We went one in 19, and we beat a team that went 24 and one and back to back state championship. They lost one game over a two year period. And that was to a team that won one game. And so what the odds of that? So you think about, so I go into everything knowing one that if you don't play well, you can lose because I can't even tell you how we beat that team, but we beat 'em South Mecklenburg, and they had Walter Davis who just passed away about a month ago. And it was the same school that Bobby Jones had gone to the year before. And all I know is we beat 'em by one or two points in Hickory at like 43, 42 or 44, 43, 45, 43, 3 weeks later, we go to Charlotte and he beat us 80 to 40. But I've always remembered that one game any given night on any given night. And I don't care what anybody says, but then I had, and I look back, I think God brought some people into my life at the time, Alan Beam and Bill Johnson and Joe Ryan and Sam Davis, and Coach Davis was the first black teacher I ever had and was a great man and man, he was tough. You talk about toughness and discipline and I mean he preached it and you knew he meant it. And then Alice Watts, who was my ninth grade algebra teacher, and then my high school two coaches. I had David Kraft for just a couple days and who was a tough guy. And Mark Laley, who was my high school coach, who really took me scouting with him when I was in the 10th grade. I knew I wanted to at that point in time. I mean athletics, it was everything to me, but I still hadn't thought about college. And then finally one day, Alice Wats said you could go to college and play basketball. And I didn't know what that really meant, but I was struggling with my sister's death. And I'd gone to a family, I guess a family counseling center, my little brother and I, and I'd met a guy, the guy there, his name was Bill Monroe. And I was doing so bad in school and I really made up my mind that as soon as I got to be 16, I was going to quit because I just, one, I didn't particularly like school. I wasn't a great student, but I just couldn't understand it because it was the first real I'd been to my grandfather's, our great grandparents' funeral and things like that. But when my sister passed away, it was tough. And like I said, my brother, he had a tough time with it, but these people came into my life and God put 'em there at the right time and they got me through it. They really did. And encouraged me to get into basketball. And then I had a gentleman that my mom actually dated for a while, Ray Fisher, who sent me to Campbell College basketball camp. And I remember it cost $56 to go there back in probably 67 or 68. And he took me to a couple games. I got to see Pete Vic play at the Charlotte Coliseum, and I fell in love with basketball. And the reason I stopped playing baseball, my eyes were so bad and I didn't want to wear those big thick glass bottle glasses in, so I just couldn't play at night. You look like Chris Sabo. Yeah, the older you get, you got to start playing at night. And I could play it during the day. I couldn't play at night, but just basketball. And then again, I'm fortunate to have a chance to, I went to Leno r, I had a couple other places I could have gone, but God's just blessed me with this incredible people. I don't believe there's any such thing as a self-made man. I don't. I think it is the people that you share life with and the people that God brings into your life that helps you get where you want to go. And I would tell you, I love my time growing up in Hickory and sometimes I wish that kids today could grow up the way I did because we'd get on our bikes, we'd go anywhere. We weren't afraid of anything. There were no devices. I wish kids could see that today. And you know what? I'm really glad I didn't have phones and all that because I love being out. I mean, I'm sure you did it baseball season, you played baseball, football, you go out in the backyard and play. You found somewhere to go play basketball. You went inside and that was it. Soccer, when I was growing up was not even, we played kickball and I think they tried to introduce soccer. I don't even know if of the teachers knew to teach it. Austin Price: Well, you look at now basketball's 365 days a year, and I love that. To me, spring is baseball, winter's basketball and falls football. You grew up that way. I grew up that way. And then today, now everybody just wants to specialize. And I think it's fantastic when you can bring a guy in who was really, really good in multiple sports that tells you you're not so specific on one thing. You can pick up and do anything at a high level. Rick Barnes: Well, I agree with you, and I think that kids should play the different sports. There's a lot of parents today that are just dead set against football because of, and I get that too. But I also know that everybody dreams that dream. I don't think people truly understand how hard it is to ever get to the NBA. I mean, it's so hard. I mean, you think about it, I looked it up one time, I think in the history of the NBA, I think there's been 4,000 or right around there guys that have worn the uniform one game. And then if you go to two games, it's less than just a little bit over 2000 in the history and the history of the game. But doing what we do, I mean, I want 'em to chase that dream. I think it's important to chase those dreams. And I think there's a different path for everybody. I think one of the worst things you can do is ever not tell a young person that they can do it, because who knows? I mean, I've had guys that I've coached that you would not think that they could make it to the NBA and they made it. And because of their determination, and I can tell you we've coached a bunch of guys that you thought could should, but they didn't because they lose their focus on what's really important, that one thing that's going to get you there. And it's a love affair for the game. It's just that you love it. You want to be a part of it. People ask me all the time about Kevin Durant. I've never coached a guy. Well, I have TJ Ford and he Lamar, the guys that made it, they're safe place, happy places in the gym. That's where they want to be. I mean, they really truly can't get enough of it. They can't get enough of it. And after practice, they want more. They want more before practice. They lose a game. They just can't go home because if they didn't play well, I got to go upstairs and fix my shot. I got to go upstairs and do this or coach, well you watch, you got to show me the tape. What did I do wrong? Those guys are far and few between. That's why there's not that many of 'em that can play that long. Austin Price: You talk about your faith, you were a fiery coach early on, and I don't think mean, I think you still have moments, right? But I mean all coaches do, but I think you're a little more mellow now than maybe years ago. And faith I think has a little bit to do with that. I think you're just kind of more of a chill character now than you were 40 years ago when you entered into this. Was there a point though, where your demeanor changed? Rick Barnes: Well, my demeanor, honestly, I think I'm probably as fiery or all that the same I do. I've always been, I mean, I want to be consistent. I think that if you're in a position of leadership, you got to be the most consistent person in the building. And I grew up again in Hickory, always went to church, grew up going to a Baptist church. My mom was one of the charter members of East Hickory Baptist Church in Hickory, and that's where her mom and dad went and our family went and my grandparents, my mom couldn't get us there. We were in church on Sunday, Sunday night, Wednesday, you had RAs, you were there. And the one thing that I will give great credit to my mother, they taught us not to use any type of profanity, any kind of derogatory comments like the N word. My grandfather, I didn't realize this until the night I got married his entire life, he worked with black people and that was where his comfort zone was. And he always came. He always had just common menial jobs, but he worked every day of his life, never complained about anything, but we were taught the respect. Everybody, I don't care who it was, whatever it may be. And back when I was growing up, there was no ethnic diversions. I mean divisions. It was black and white. Everything was black and white. I remember seeing downtown hickory where there was a cooler that said, colored only, white only. All that I grew up. And I saw that and I never understood it because in our house, and we lived right on the verge, what in Hickory at the time they called Colored Town. And I realized that's where my grandfather worked. And I thank God for that because he, my grandfather, again, no profanity, I mean none. I mean nothing, anything like that. So when I got into coaching, I didn't curse. And when I became a head coach, I had the worst advice I ever took. I had one of my assistant coaches, and he was a black coach. He said to me, coach, if you don't start using profanity, you're going to lose these guys. And you know what I did, and I'm ashamed of it to this day. And I went through a period of, and again, I don't think I coached any different, but it was the way what I spoke about how I spoke, and it was looking back, it was demeaning because the one thing I've always promised parents is I'd treat their sons the way I want my son treated. I wouldn't looking back. And it was a huge, huge mistake talking, I wouldn't want my son talked to like that. And so that went on and after my first, halfway through my first year at George Mason, the entire time I was at Providence the entire time I was at Clemson, and then probably for about three, maybe four years or so at Texas, I can't remember exactly how many. And I signed a really good class with the class that came in with Kevin Durant signed a young man by the name of Damien James from Nack and Josephs, Texas, and Damien's one of the sweetest kids you could ever meet. And he was ranked like the 18th best player in the country and thought he was going to be one and done, but obviously he wasn't. But the next year he came back and he was really struggling. I mean really, it might've been his third year, but he was struggling and we needed him to play big every night, consistency. And at that time, I think that I was at, looking back, I don't think I was a very good coach, to be honest with you. I think I knew basketball and I think I could teach basketball, but I don't think I was a good coach in terms of putting it all together with the players and getting the most out of them. I think the worst thing they can do is play out of fear. And we're getting ready to play Oklahoma one night, and Damien was really struggling and I loved the kid. I really loved him, but he couldn't have felt it looking back on it the way I coached him. There was no way he could have felt what I really felt for him. And we get ready to play Oklahoma and up in Norman, and I told the coaches I wanted him to leave. They had a little locker room for the coaches, and I said, I want to talk to Damien. And I brought him in. I said, Damien, look, I want you to help me figure out how I can help you. Tell me what I can do to help you. How can I coach you better? What can I do? And he looked at me and I'll never forget, he put his head down and he shook his head and he looked at me and his eyes were moist. And he said, coach, I owe you an apology. And I said, what do you mean? I'm not asking you for an apology for anything? I said, I just want you to answer that question for me. He said, no, I feel like I've let you down. I know you have high expectations for me, and our program's got high expectations. I don't think I've lived up to what I should be. And if I did, I think we'd be doing better. I said, Damo, I appreciate that, but I need to know what I can do to help you right now. I want to be a better coach coaching you. And he put his head down and he shook his head and he didn't look at me. He said, coach, it would help me a lot if you didn't curse. He said, I grew up with all women in my life. I've never had a male-dominant figure in my life. You're the most male-dominant figure I ever have, and when I think you're mad at me, it scares me. He said, I don't want to disappoint you. And I said to him, I said, Damien, I apologize to him. And I said, you have my word. I will never curse you or anybody else again. And I haven't since that day. I've never since that. So that's where again, God uses young people. And again, I got caught up in it where I thought everything was about me and my daughter and son sat me down one day and said, dad, you're going about this all the wrong way. And I was, again, you know what? I really started living worldly and got away from the spiritual side of where I am and the God that I believe in. And so I was still there. Another what, 10 years. And I went back and apologized to a lot of players over the years, those that I felt like, and you don't forget it. You don't. And I went back and I've met with a bunch of 'em, talked to 'em about it, and I'm thankful that God, they said, Hey, coach, we understand it. We get it. We're all, and I was young, there was no doubt at the time, and probably scared that I wasn't going to make it into business Austin Price: Pressure. You feel pressure Rick Barnes: Natural, it's a different kind of pressure, but you can't take it out on other people. You can't do that in anything in life. And probably, no, there's probably not. That's what was going on. But I'm thankful that I have coached so many. I don't like to say we have coached so many wonderful people, guys that have truly affected my life more than they know. I've had just tremendous assistant coaches with me and worked for some just great athletic directors and made mistakes. Yes. But I can assure you, I won't make that one again. I want our players every day to know how much I love them. But to go back to what you asked me about being feisty, I think every guy that, every player that I've ever coached, when they come back, they have said to me, and I could go back 25 years ago, you're not as hard as you used to be. I would disagree because they went through it. And now that they look back on it, I've had a bunch of those guys say, boy, coach, I wasn't very tough back then. And when they're going through it, they probably think it's harder than it. And I think these guys do. They think it's harder than it is, but to get them where they want to go, it's hard. Austin, it is hard to get them because when they leave here, they're trying to go to a league and they're trying to take somebody's food off their table, and it is a different ball game. Austin Price: Well, the first episode of All Club Confidential we ever had, we had Josiah out and Cedric Tillman and Josiah openly talked about his first year or so. He hated you. And then all of a sudden it just started to click how much he knew you were pushing him for the right reasons. And now he's like, now I love him. It's like he goes, how much do you have to cross that barrier as a coach with every kid that you coach? Because getting them to understand, it's kind of like Coach Garner on the football team, those defensive lineman. I think they're probably, when they first start out, they're like, well, what is going on? And then later they're like, I'd run through a brick wall for that guy. Rick Barnes: Well, I think it goes back to recruiting. I think that I've had a couple bad teams, and I'll tell you where it went bad was through the process of recruiting them. Because I can tell you the one thing that I have done in terms of talking basketball with recruits, I've always said, and I think transparency is the most important thing. And I've always said, if you want to know what it's like, come to watch practice. Because I'm not going to change the way you see me in practice. I'm not going to put on a show when you're here where I'm being a nice guy. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to be as real as I can be. And I want you to talk to the players, talk to Josiah, talk to those guys. Because since I've been here, Josiah James has probably recruited more players for us than anybody. But the funny thing about it is, I can tell you this, don't connect point blank told me I'm coming here because I want you to coach me Austin Price: Hard. Yeah. He said this when we had him out a few weeks ago, Rick Barnes: And I said to him, I said, you have no idea what you're saying. He said, I do. And I said, no, you don't. And today before I left, because he had a tough night the other night, and I've been telling him for three months, I said, you have no idea what's coming your way. And if I don't start getting at you, making you uncomfortable making you understand this, you're going to really get hit in a way you can't imagine. But here's what I know now. He knows I've told him the truth. And he even said, and I said, and you know what, Dalton, it's just getting started. It's just getting started the way people are going to play you the way they're going to do it. But as much as you try to tell 'em, and again, it goes back to Josiah saying, boy, it is tough early. They think they got it. They think and because they don't know what they're getting into, they don't know what's coming. And now they do. And I do think over time they realize that everything we do is really to help 'em. I don't think we've ever tried to, well, I know we haven't to do one thing, to not get a guy to be the best he can Austin Price: Be. You go back to that NC State game in December and that second half because he'd been on the floor, he had legend scoring like 87% of the games right up to that point, and he's not out there. And I kept watching him on the bench and I'm like, this guy's kind of getting a little taste right here. This is a moment for him because I mean, everything had comes so easy. He scores 37 in Chapel Hill, even in a loss. I mean, everything offensively was just clicking boom, and all of a sudden he had an off night, but he had his brothers step up and take care and get that win for, it's just sometimes offense is there. Sometimes his defense is there, you win different ways. I thought that was a real moment for him because I think to be where you want to be in two months time, he needed to, I won't say be humble, I don't think that's the right word, but he needed a little bit of adversity at this level in this league versus being in northern Colorado. No, knock against that. Rick Barnes: I totally agree. I totally agree. I told 'em it was coming and I actually started seeing it a little bit at the end of the Illinois game. They really made an effort to, when they were down, we were going to play through 'em and going after him and seeing the length, equal length getting at him. But like I said to him, you've never had it like this. You've never had play. I mean, there's a difference in this level, Austin Price: And it's every night Rick Barnes: And you're in a level where this level, this league is known for high level athletes and now a league that's got really good basketball players in it. But I told him, I said, it's just getting started. And so the other night, I will tell you this, when I took him out the last time, I knew he wasn't going to play anymore because now I started thinking, one, we got to win this game and could he help us? I started thinking more in terms of him, if I let him go back out there and the shape he's in right now, he might not ever recover because I mean, he had a tough time. He had a really tough time. So now I'm not going to let him dig himself any deeper mentally than he is right now because you could just, we're around these guys so much and we know 'em their body language, we know what they are, but you hit it. And again, he's a very humble kid, but he's never had that. And he was trying too hard and you just knew if you put him back in the game at that point in time, there's no way he could keep himself from looking for trouble. And at that point in time, like you said, the older guys picked him up and they were great with him. I mean, they know we need what he brings us Austin Price: A hundred percent, Rick Barnes: But it is, and what you said is absolutely he needed it now and again. It's going to happen again. They're going to keep coming. Austin Price: Well, for this team, I mean in a lot of ways he's Batman, right? Batman needs Robin sometimes, or Bat Girl or however you want to keep going down the superhero path to help out. And you've got a team that's got some veterans that like Josiah can step up, Sante can step up. You go right down the list. And then of course Z finally getting himself kind of finding footing there. When did you know, was it that NC State game? I mean, I know he proclaimed himself back after that game, but I mean, were there inklings and practice where you're like, he is pretty close to being backpack. Rick Barnes: You're right, but you still have to play. You know what I'm saying? You still got to go do it in the game. In practice, he's always been Z and does what he does, but it's different when the lights come on. Regardless. It's different. And I think although the Austin Price: Hustle play against Illinois where he double won the ball in addition to Josiah, Rick Barnes: That was a big play. And do I think he's totally back 100% physically? I I think he's close. I think he's real close. But do I think he's back mentally that play that you talked about, I think put him back where he, and you know what? He did start finding his way in the second half of the North Carolina game. He played much better in the second half. He settled in and started distributing the ball. And then we talk about it with our, every game takes on a different personality. And the other night, NC State, you could tell by their game plan, they were doing everything they could to make him do all the work. They want him to probably get 30, not set those other guys up. And I thought he did a great job of what he was trying to do there, but where I thought he controlled the game was the defensive place. He took the ball away from what, two or three times on the back end. And that's a Kai, what he does, Austin Price: The flying the ointment. Rick Barnes: That's what he does. And when he's doing that down there, it creates havoc. Austin Price: All right, let's do some rapid fire here. Let's start with the old steady here on this show. Jordan or LeBron? Rick Barnes: I'm a Jordan Guy because of the era he played and I know what he did through that era when the game was so different, so physical. And so could he be what he is today, what the game is today? He'd be Michael Plus with the way they Austin Price: Let he would buddy. Rick Barnes: Oh yeah. Austin Price: He'd average 50 or about at 45. Rick Barnes: Yeah, because it's just a different game today. Austin Price: Favorite place you've been in this world. Wow, Rick Barnes: That's a tough one. What I'd have to say, the favorite places are who you're with. And my favorite places would always be wherever my family is, Austin Price: Best family vacation, then Rick Barnes: Well, Austin Price: What comes to mind? What's the first memory? Boom, Rick Barnes: Going to the beach in South Carolina? We've done that for a long time as kids, as a family growing up. And now with the grandkids again, it's just making more of those memories. Austin Price: What's one place in the world you've not been you'd like to go? Rick Barnes: It's funny you say that. I was talking to Bob McKillop today, and Bob's really truly one of my all time best friends, great friends. He's had an impact on me more than anyone could ever realize. And he was telling me he's getting ready to go January the sixth to New Zealand and to do a clinic. And he's been there before and ever since Coach Knight, when I was at, I asked Coach Knight that question that you just asked me, and he says to me, someday you've got to go to New Zealand during the month of January, which obviously I had to not be coaching to do that. He told me, he said, when I quit coaching, I'm going to spend every month in New Zealand fishing. Well, not that I'm a fisherman, but I've met people from New Zealand, recruited some people from New Zealand, never been there but recruited people that lived there. And they all just tell me it's a fabulous place, but there's so many places I would love. I've been fortunate to be at a wonderful lot of the Israel and those kinds of places that being able to know some of the things that you study and read about in the Bible. But again, I think I could be anywhere as long my family was Austin Price: With me. I'm going to give you six here because I'm going to let you do a six man. Give me the Rick Barnes all the time, starting five plus a sixth. Man. I Rick Barnes: Don't know if you have where you're getting these questions from, but it's funny, we were talking about this two weeks ago with Jay Billis and Bill Rry and what I came up with, I had Oscar Robertson, I had Larry Bird, I had Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, and Magic. And my sixth man was Kareem. And the reason being Jordan could play any position. Oscar Robertson, they said would still hold the triple double record if they kept stats back then the way they did Bird. And here's what I would say about all those guys, regardless of what anybody said they could play today, all those guys would be a factor today playing. And obviously that's a year that I grew up watching all those guys. And there's some great players today, don't get me wrong, but I'm amazed too as how the game has changed. But I just know those guys were iconic. They could go today against anybody. What Austin Price: About guys you've coached? Give me your starting Rick Barnes: Five. Well, obviously TJ Ford would have to be the starting point guard, even though DJ Augustine's pretty darn good, and Kevin Durant, LaMarcus Aldridge, those guys are pretty good. And I'd put KD anywhere he play anywhere, and then I'm trying. But when I think of teams, I think obviously the best team I've ever coached was a Final Four team that had a guy named Roe Ivy and Brandon Mutan. Two guys that weren't highly recruited, but good players, productive. And Royale was the guy, he's one of those guys. When we recruited him, we had a player by the name of Maurice Evans who declared for the NBA without us even knowing it was coming. We were blindsided by it. And Rob Lanier said, there's a kid up in New York that coach, I'll never forget, Rob said, coach, this guy could end up being an NBA player or he could be an absolute dud. And so we go up and meet his parents. And I'll never forget his dad who said to me, rod said, coach, I don't know much about basketball. He said, why would you want my son at the University of Texas? And he's not. The only place he could go is like Boston University and either Marist or Wright or one of those schools. I said, I'm going to be honest with you, I haven't seen your son play. Here's what Rob Lanier's told me, and I need somebody to just come in and help us get practice and get better. He said, well, my son can do that. And he's the first guy I ever heard. He said, my son understands what it's like to be the fifth option. He's always been the fifth option. And so Roy came, and when he left, he's now the assistant coach and he'll be an NBA head coach soon. But Roy left as the all time winningest player at Texas and played nine years in NBA, I think on all on the last couple, four or five years on one year contracts and guys like that. I've won a lot of games with guys like that obviously. But TJ and Kevin were national player of the year. TJ taught me a lot. Kevin taught me a lot. LaMarcus. I'm obviously extremely proud of where he was and how hard he worked. I'd have to go down the line to be honest with you, but it's just PJ Tucker is a guy you could put out there because he's a Austin Price: Defender. Rick Barnes: Defender can do it all. He player of the year in the league, he was a big 12 player of the year. Austin Price: He played a long time in the N NBA too. Rick Barnes: Yeah, well, he texted me a month two months ago and said, coach, I've tricked these guys into giving me another two years. And he said, I'll be 41. So it's amazing. Austin Price: Look at you. Donna has them. I mean, he hung around with the heat for until this past year. I mean, Rick Barnes: And you think about PJ and you think about Grant Williams, both of 'em out of North Carolina, both of 'em were player of the years and Grant here obviously what twice PJ left early as Grant, but neither one of those guys were highly recruited and both of 'em were out of shape. But again, it goes back to compliment my staff. They saw 'em, and the one thing they did, both of those guys, they won. They seemed like they always won. But again, we've been blessed to coach so many guys and over what, 38 years or whatever. I mean, I can go back and think about my first team, how much I love those guys. And my first year at province, we had a kid named Eric Murdoch who led the Big Easton scoring that year. And just through the time, and a lot of pros, Dickie Simkins won us a big East Championship with his versatility and what he does, Austin Crow share. I mean, think about it, of our last five recruits at Providence, we signed Jason Williams, who ended up at Florida, signed Jason, but he was a prop and I left and went to Austin Price: Cl. He was fantastic in the Rick Barnes: NBA, by the way, they wouldn't let him out as national letter. So he left and we put him at prep school and he couldn't handle the Pork Unit Academy. And then he went to Marshall, set out with Billy Donovan and followed Billy there. We had in that class, that class too was Eric Williams who was what? The 12th MBA lottery. He was an MBA lottery guy. Austin Sier Pacers, yeah, Austin was on that group. Greg Buckner, who's an associate head coach for the Cavaliers now, Greg came with us now they let him come with us and he was Clemson's first ever a CC rookie of the year. But what people don't realize that people don't know the guy that we signed in that class. And at the time we had 15 scholarship players, and this would've changed my trajectory, I think we signed this young man committed to us, and I go to the athletic director when we first could go get the national letter signed in November. And we had 15 guys and we signed, we knew we were going to overs sign because we knew two guys were definitely going to, and one of 'em is Ira Bowman, who's an assistant coach with Bruce Pearl at Auburn. And he went back and had a great career at University of Pennsylvania. And I was a sharp, great, great person, going to be a great coach too. He is a great coach, going to be a great head coach one day. And we had another player, Olo, who we knew was going to transfer back home to New Hampshire. And so we offered this guy a scholarship. He committed to us, and I go in to get the national letter and John Mardo, who's a wonderful person, my second ad, and John went on to become the commissioner of the Big East and passed away a couple year ago. And he said that our people on campus won't let us give a scholarship that we don't have. I said, well, John, we're going to have not just that one, but one more at the end of the year we're planning on signing. He said, well, they won't let us sign. And I said, well, that's not good because this guy's a guy we really, really wanted. That's when I knew I had to leave Providence. And the guy that they wouldn't let us sign was Tim Duncan. You asked Tim Duncan today, he would tell you he committed to Providence College and not recruited either non recruited basketball player. All those guys were not highly recruited guys. And they all, well, you know what Duncan did? Eric Williams, longtime, NBA, Jason Williams, Greg Buckner, all those guys. And again, it goes back to great coaching staff and they got 'em. Oh, Austin Price: And if there were Providence message boards back then they would be going bananas over the fact that you couldn't bring in Tim Duncan after the Rick Barnes: Fact. Well, I tried, but I also knew then and there it was time to move. And I did. Austin Price: Last thing, and I'm going to get you out the door here. Even since you've been here, you've had, I think it's maybe five assistants going to be head coaches. Is that, I mean, I know players is kind where your impact is, but is that part of the legacy is being able to eyeball a guy, bring him on staff knowing, hey, this is a guy with a couple of years will be a head coach and then kind of watching that guy blossom? Rick Barnes: Well, I think when you put together your staff, I think the most important thing to me has always been when I sit down and talk to someone, and I've always kept a real short list of guys that when I'm on the road, either coaches would probably tell you they don't think I'm paying attention a lot watching games, but I can assure you this, I'm paying more attention than they think, but I'm watching other things too. I like to kind of multitask and I'm watching other coaches and get to know 'em, and I always ask 'em questions on the road. And the one thing that personally that I've always said is that one of 'em going to rely on my assistants because I have that much confidence in them, what they say. But with that said, they would tell you, I've told 'em we're not going to hire somebody that all they can do is recruit. They got to be a basketball coach. They've got to want to be a head coach. Because for that to happen, I had a great experience back in 1980. I was hired at George Mason. I was the first full-time assistant coach hired there. And Joe Harrington was the first full-time head coach. And Joe had worked with Lefty for 16, 17 years. And when Joe started talking to me about coming to George Mason, it was the fastest growing university in the country. It had 18,000 students, 500 lived on campus. He said, this will be the greatest experience you'll ever have in coaching if you stay in it. He said, you're going to see not only a university being built from the ground floor up, but you're going to watch an athletic department be built. And we had a great president, Dr. George Johnson was a great president, and when I met him for the first time, he obviously said basketball is going to be the flagship of the program. And so I got to watch Joe do that, and he allowed me to be a part of everything, every part of the program. He said to me, you're going to have to make your name as a recruiter, but along the way, if you want to be a head coach, you better be involved with every aspect of this program, scheduling. And back then he and I were, and we had some part-time, people not making very much money. So I was in charge of travel scouting, weightlifting for all that. And so with that said, I always said, I want my assistants to have a chance to be a part of it. I didn't do a great job early, but I had as much, and I think again, I felt like I had to probably do it all to prove myself, whatever, but as time went on, I've learned that you got to let people work. I'm not a big meeting. If I'm going to meet all the time, I might as well hire a bunch of young people and tell 'em exactly how I want it. I don't think that brings creativity into the program, but it goes back to hiring. I mean, I got a staff full of guys right now that they're all ready to be head coaches. I mean all of them from the first one. And if you want, I mean the NCAA says you've got two full-time and three full-time coaches and everybody else. But through the years, the guys that I've had that, like when Rob left, he took some guy, Mike Schwartz left. He took Riley Davis who was, I mean Riley Davis at East Carolina. He's ready to be a head coach. All those guys. And Rob I think would tell you that about the guys that he's had go with him and Kim English, the guys he's got Dennis Felton, who was one of my assistants who recruited Tim Duncan. He's the guy that got Tim Duncan and he's on Kim English's staff back at Providence. And Dennis has been a head coach a couple of different times. So it goes back to the the hiring process, knowing that you're going to get people that honestly, you got to go into with the attitude, I got to get somebody better than me because the better they are, the better they're going to make me. And they challenge you. They work and you listen to 'em. But yet obviously I've got to make whatever final decision needs to be made. But I want people that I think are better than me. And I think I've done a good job of hiring people that I think are better than me. Austin Price: The life and times of Tennessee, head coach Rick Barnes, and we didn't even get into his favorite place to get a hot dog. I mean, these are all big time things. Rick Barnes: Anywhere that you've got mustard and coleslaw would be good with me. Austin Price: Mustard and coleslaw for the head coach. Coach, we appreciate the time and good luck the rest of the way. Okay. Appreciate you, man. Appreciate you. Okay.