Jonathan Peelle 0:03 Hi, and welcome to The Brain Made Plain. I'm your host, Jonathan Peelle. And with me today is Dr. Morgan Barense. Morgan, thanks for joining me! Morgan Barense 0:11 Thanks so much for having me, Jonathan. Jonathan Peelle 0:13 To start with, could you just tell us a little bit about the research in your lab? Morgan Barense 0:17 Yeah. So my lab is a cognitive neuroscience lab, at the core of all of the questions we ask is trying to understand how the brain this squishy mass in between our ears, gives rise to cognition, how it lets us think, and feel and see and remember things. And specifically, we're interested in how the act of seeing something is related to our ability to later remember it. So there's a theme in cognitive neuroscience and psychology more, more generally, to put boxes and arrows around different aspects of cognition, or to make these anatomical modules in the brain and pin cognitive process to a given brain regions. So you might have heard that the hippocampus is for memory, and the ventral visual stream, part of the back of the brain is for perception. Our work is challenging this notion of these functional, functional, anatomically segregated modules, and trying to push the question of, to what extent are these different cognitive processes integrated in the brain. So might a brain structure like the hippocampus, in addition to being very important for memory, also be very important for perception, being able to see something and make sense of it, and then later, also remember it? Jonathan Peelle 1:42 I mean, I really like the, how you put that on sort of maybe breaking down the barriers between these traditional modules. And I can tell you, you know, when I teach Introduction to cognitive neuroscience, I do it exactly the traditional way. So there's like a chapter on vision. And we talk about the eye and the retina, and the LGN. And back to visual cortex. And we talked about, like vision stuff. And then there's like a quiz. And then, you know, a later chapter is on memory. And we talked about the hippocampus and how the hippocampus helps us remember things. And obviously, part of this is trying to have a simple entrance into the field. But I think that kind of thinking, permeates not only introductory classes, but I think a lot of the a lot of the research literature too. Morgan Barense 2:32 Absolutely. You know, I think that's why this modular view has stayed around for so long. It's, it's how our textbooks are organized, it's how our departments are organized, you know, oh, you know, she's the vision professor, he's the memory professor, or we're hiring in the area of attention. And, and it's also really, it makes it a lot easier to teach to divvy these things up, and, you know, create these little units that are digestible. And, you know, I also I've a researcher in his, you know, veal, I've spent my whole career doing this, and I still want to teach like that sometimes, you know, because, yeah, it just it, it's intuitive, and it's easy to teach, but I think it's, you know, at the core, it's, it's wrong, or at least it, it fails to appreciate just how dynamic and interconnected cognition is. Jonathan Peelle 3:30 So I, we will get into a little bit more of the details of how you view, vision and perception and memory. But just step back a little bit, how did you originally get interested in, in cognitive neuroscience or in in these issues? Morgan Barense 3:47 Yeah, so it was, I was going to medical school, that was my plan, in undergraduate. And but I was fortunate enough, that as part of my undergraduate degree, I needed to do an honors thesis. And I was more fortunate still to get involved in the lab of Mark Baxter. And just being at the forefront of science, asking questions and having the freedom to answer them to not only to ask the questions, but then to figure out how I'm going to answer this question in a rigorous clean way where we, you know, only let one variable rotate. That was so satisfying to me that I never looked back. I think it was also the lab community. Going from being kind of a anonymous pre med undergraduate to being a part of something to being a part of a lab and to have a PI who respected my opinions to have a community in my lab. It was the best thing that I did in my undergrad. have a career and I wanted to replicate that for myself for the rest of my career? Jonathan Peelle 5:07 And was it sort of like, perception and memory? Or one or the other that you'd like initially grabbed on to? Or is it more science generally? Or how did that work? Morgan Barense 5:17 Yeah, that's a great question. So I was actually in a, you know, a rat lab. And I guess what I grabbed on to so I was always interested in research that ultimately, you know, has a connection in, that's really salient in terms of the human experience. And I think that memory, and the loss of memory is one of the most, how to put it. You know, you see someone with Alzheimer's disease, and it just, it lays bare the price that we pay for having such a fully developed human brain, the fact that we can lose it, we can lose the, we can lose our ability to think to remember, and that, you know, if you watch somebody go through that, that it's, it's so important to understand what is happening, what is happening at the, you know, what is robbing them of this thing that makes us human. And so I guess I, I always wanted my research to have that human connection, something that I could put a face to, and, and so for me, you know, for my family experience with Alzheimer's disease, that was the disease that interested me, the most, and memory in and of itself, was just, it's such an incredible gift that evolution has given us this ability to go back and travel back in time and relive things that happen to us and close our eyes and smell that thing again, or hear your babies laugh, or, you know, all of these moments that make us who we are as people and the fact that we can do that, just sitting right here in our chair. And and then also the tragedy that some people can't do this, and they lose that ability. So that was the I knew that I was really interested in memory because of its salience to the human experience. And because of the kind of profound clinical societal implications with prevalence of memory disorders. So that was sort of where I started, that I wanted to study memory. But from that point on, I was really open to anything. You know, in my undergraduate, I watched rats digging cups, I'm, like, large, old fat, aged rats, take through, tick through cups and smell various body oils that I got it, The Body Shop. So, um, you know, when the nitty gritty of science is, the day to day is rats digging cups or combing through your code, trying to figure out why it's crashing? So, you know, that yeah, the day to day has this nitty gritty kind of, you know, in the coal mines, figuring it out. But at the high level, you know, those questions are so motivating to me, but you have to, you know, watch some rats digging cuts to get some of these answers. Jonathan Peelle 8:36 Yeah, that's really cool. Before we get into some of the, like, specifics of some research studies, I wonder if we could just take a minute to, or if you could just take a minute to kind of lay out the anatomy a little bit and sort of, you know, from the the visual cortex, which is in the occipital lobe at the back of the brain, you know, there's this what's often referred to as the ventral visual stream, and maybe, yeah, just kind of walk us through that, and maybe how people have at least historically thought about the processing that takes place there. Morgan Barense 9:08 Yeah. So the ventral visual stream, as you say, starts at the very back of the brain, the occipital cortex, and it moves forward on the ventral surface of the brain. So that's the bottom side of the brain, starting in the back, moves forward. ventually. So right, can't see me but I'm showing you on my, on my head, move sort of from the back of the brain, farther forward further forward, further forward until the ventral visual stream hits the medial temporal lobes. And so, it was thought that the ventral visual stream starts in the occipital lobes and moves forward along the bottom the brain up until it hits a part of the brain called IT cortex inferotemporal cortex, and what the ventral visual stream everyone agrees that the ventral visual stream is this Processing pathway in the brain that is critical for the perceptual analysis of objects. So an object is placed before you right now I'm looking at the microphone that I am speaking into. And it's comprised of all sorts of low level individual features. And those features come together to make kind of simple conjunctions. So there's various lines and textures and colors that come together to make the various components of this microphone that I'm looking at. And as I'm staring at this, my ventral visual stream is putting together all of these features in this hierarchical organizations. So very simple features are processed, like line orientations are processed in the occipital lobe in what's called V one. And then conjunctions of those features are processed in farther in regions of ventral visual stream that are farther forward. And as you move forward in the brain, the representations that the kinds of features that these brain regions are processing are of increasing complexity. So it's this hierarchy of visual complexity with each brain region in this hierarchy, handling something that is increasingly complex. Jonathan Peelle 11:14 All right, well, why don't we switch gears a little bit and talk about a specific study that you did? So this is a paper from 2012, called "intact memory for a relevant information impairs perception in amnesia". And so could you just tell us a little bit about like, at this point, in the journey you've been talking about? What were the main questions you were asking and how you went about it? Morgan Barense 11:38 Yeah, so this was actually the last paper that I did. In my time in the United Kingdom, the last paper of my postdoc, I, I literally collected the final data two days before getting on a plane and moving to Canada to start my faculty position. So it's a real kind of a moment in time, it's the it's the end of an era. For me in my career, and the start of a lot of other, you know, the start of interesting, a lot of interesting questions, I think that spun off of this work. Okay, so. So the idea that we were working from is that patients that have memory disorders due to damage to the medial temporal lobe, they're missing the most complex level of object representations. So they have no problems seeing the simple single features, or even conjunctions of those features. So if they look at a face, they can see the eyes, they can see the eyebrows, they just have a lot of trouble putting all of those features together into a cohesive whole, to make sense of, to make sense of all of those face components and say, that is Jonathan, or being able to recognize Jonathan from different viewpoints or different different lighting. And, and being able to remember Jonathan's face later, so. So the idea wasn't that these these patients with amnesia were had gross perceptual deficits, that was absolutely not the case. And, you know, they had lived for decades with damage to this part of the brain. So they had come up with excellent strategies for being able to cope in in a world where they couldn't see where they were, they had problems kind of putting all of the features together to make a cohesive whole. They were they came up with strategies to really emphasize single features. So when looking at two faces, and saying, are those the same or different, we noticed that they would really focus on individual features, like the eyebrows, and they would make their discriminations just based on those single features. So, we wanted to design a study where we made it really hard for them to use those single features. And we wanted to really get a handle on, on exactly, we wanted to have control over how these different objects were built, we needed to use kind of contrived lab based objects, non real world objects, where we had complete control over the various features that went into these objects. And so what we did we design these kind of blobby like objects, and we knew exactly what three features we were going to change across the object. So the objects had an outer shape, an inner shape and the fill pattern. And across the different objects, we could vary the extent to which those those features overlap. So sometimes in the studies, we just as a shorthand, we represent the different features by letters. So let's say that the, we might have objects ABC, where a refers to the outer shape B refers to the inner shape, and C refers to the fill pattern. So then we might ask a participant to look at objects A, B, C, and compare it to object dBc, where that those two objects differ only in terms of their outer shape. So they're very, very visually similar. And can these patients that have damage to their medial temporal lobe? Can they see the difference between these two objects? And so because so I'm not sure if that's clear, but so what we were really trying to do was make it so there was so much overlap between these two objects, that the single feature that differentiated them was really hard to find. And so you really had to look at these objects as a cohesive whole to find it. And we found that these patients, again, they're masters of this single feature strategy. And when they see these two objects, ABC and vs dBc, at the beginning of the experiment, they were pretty good. So we had them do I think it was 72 trials of these really complex discriminations? Are these two objects the same or different? So at the beginning, they were okay, you know, they could it, I think it was taxing for them, but they were able to zero in on those two different features, a versus D, they could, they could find that. But then there was so much what we call interference. So many of these features repeated, and they had done so many of these trials, that the parts of their brain, the that were still intact, these brain regions farther back in the ventral visual stream, those representations became overwhelmed. And they were no longer able to solve that discrimination. So this kind of almost like memory for these lingering features for that discrimination between feature a versus feature D. Impaired their performance on later trial. So they might see another object now, def, but they have they been viewing so many of these very similar objects. And the single feature representations in the back of their brain became overloaded, and were no longer able to solve these discriminations. And so they that's when their impairments started to emerge. So it was like this interference from these low level features started to impair their performance on these perceptual tasks. Jonathan Peelle 17:53 And so in a way, interference is really interesting, right? Because it's the memory, if you if you had no memory, there would be no interference, right? Because all of these previous exposures would just be gone. But it's actually hanging on to them. That's the thing that's, that's interfering with your performance. Morgan Barense 18:12 Exactly. It's that intact memory for these features in pairs per se perception in cases with memory disorders. So just that sentence, you know, on the face of it makes no sense. If we think about the brain, if we think about the medial temporal lobe as a memory system, how do we have patients that had damage to a memory system show memory for features, which impairs their perception? It's clear that these boundaries are not are not the way that we should be. They lose their descriptive power. Because it's not we have intact memory, impairing perception in cases that have these memory disorders. So it's not the right way to be divvying up. Right. Jonathan Peelle 19:00 Right. And so just to make sure I'm going to summarize it correctly, the issue is that if you have a damaged hippocampus, then you have trouble with this holistic conjunctive comparison. So you're forced to do single features, but the single feature strategy which is supported by other regions, then you get into trouble because of all this interference. Exactly. Okay. So really, it's the damage is changing your strategy and that strategy is then more vulnerable to to interference with these low level features, because you're seeing so many of them. Morgan Barense 19:38 Exactly, exactly. So they could so in in one of the experiments in that paper, they started outperforming okay or close to okay, but then that strike because they could use that single feature strategy, but that fell apart due to this overwhelming interference and they could no longer use that strategy and they didn't have those conjunctive representations to overcome to use instead of that single feature strategy. Jonathan Peelle 20:06 So then, kind of the implication of that is when you have an intact hippocampus that's supporting so if I was going to ask you, I guess I will ask you. So then what does that tell us about what the hippocampus does and perception. Morgan Barense 20:22 So it is representing it's representing these stimuli at the highest level of complexity. So these unique representations of what makes a you know, a given scene distinct from a visually similar scene. So it's, it's so well, specifically for this neuron paper, because we're talking about objects, it's the perirenal cortex. The hippocampus is at the next level of complexity when talking about scenes and the way that different objects come together to make a spatial array, which makes a scene and how those objects actually relate across time, which makes an event. But so what the part of the medial temporal lobe is damaged in these patients, the periodontal cortex, it's representing these objects at a fully specified conjunctive object representation that has sort of all of the information about that object and subsequent work we've done has shown that these representations also have semantic meaning so that the visual features and the semantic features of these objects are intertwined. Jonathan Peelle 21:37 Oh, great. So you, you, you glossed over understandably a really important point that I want to come back to. And so that's the you mentioned how the parietal cortex and the hippocampus are different regions of the medial temporal lobe. Yes. So the hierarchy, so so it actually I missed this when, when we were talking about this paper originally. So you're looking at damage to patients with damage to Perry Rhino cortex, which is really specific to sort of these object, conjunctions and object complexity. But then in, in our daily experience, we're not only looking at isolated objects on a blank screen, we have, you know, scenes and backgrounds and time and when things occur, and so it's the next stage, which is the hippocampus, which is sort of the same logic of integrating complexity and linking a holistic view together, but you're adding in things beyond visual objects. Is that right? Okay. Morgan Barense 22:37 Exactly, exactly. Yes. So it's this, this the, this representational hierarchy that starts in simplest form in v1, line orientations and moves forward forward forward to the brain representations of increasing complexity, they get to the periodontal cortex, where we have these object representations across different viewpoints, the meaning of objects, and then the final station in this pathway would be the hippocampus, where we have objects in scenes and the kind of the complex arrays that make the world around us really, this is like the rich spatial representation that makes that makes our worlds. Jonathan Peelle 23:18 And a lot of times, like, again, sort of the textbook view of the hippocampus focuses a lot on episodic memory, and your memory for specific events. And sort of in the context of what you're how you're describing this in a way, the, the time at which a thing occurs is part of this, the holistic view, so that gets linked, right, the, the unique episode is one of the features of a thing. Exactly, right. Okay, so like I had cereal for breakfast this morning, I've had cereal, a lot of mornings, I've had breakfast, a lot of mornings, I've seen a lot of mornings, but I have to put together all of those features to make, like my unique memory of the cereal I had this morning. And so, if you saw patient hm, who has hippocampal damage, has trouble linking those together. So he may be able to do a lot of the lower level individual you know, perceptual computations or whatever he can you can perceive the world around him, but is unable generally to link those into into events because because of the hippocampal damage. Morgan Barense 24:27 Exactly. He it's all a blur, right? So what made you know, this particular what unique things happened to you this particular morning at breakfast time that made it different from all the other times that you've had breakfast. That is what the hippocampus is doing these unique representations of events that make them distinct that that keep those memories from sort of blurring and sort of receding into these just like scumbags representations of just it was a breakfast, I must have had cereal and milk. And I imagine that one of the toddlers spilled something on the floor. Yeah. So you know what we've been talking about here with hippocampus, and the fact that it's so critical in episodic memory. So being able to remember the events of our lives and keep these events from blurring together. So being able to remember the different instances in which, you know, do you have breakfast, or you play with your grandson, or to keep those individual moments unique, and remember what is special about them. That is something that the hippocampus is absolutely essential for. And unfortunately, you know, the hippocampus is a very vulnerable part of the brain. So it's really vulnerable to brain damage. It's vulnerable to all sorts of diseases like Alzheimer's disease. And even over the course of normal healthy aging, there are very striking declines in hippocampal function that are associated with impairments in episodic memory. So this ability to when I say episodic memory, what I mean is this ability to richly remember the events of our lives, being able to travel back in time, and relive them as though they were, you know, happening again, remembering the distinct elements of different events that make them unique and make them special. And that ability that so many of us take for granted is something that can gradually slip away, as we age, or as we succumb to disease, or even just as we're stressed, and not paying attention to the events of our lives. And these events can start to blur together. So kind of I got to a point in my career where, you know, I'd achieved tenure. And I felt like I was a part of and witness to a lot of amazing basic neuroscience research that told us about how the brain supports memory and what the hippocampus is doing to support memory. And you know, what the brain is doing when we first learned memory and how that memory is saved in the long term. And I'd also spent a lot of time working with patients that had memory disorders. And they'd been so generous in terms of sharing their time, and so hopeful that our research was going to help them. And I thought, you know, what, like, it's time for me to actually take these advances in basic science and, and try to build something that actually does help them. And so we pivoted, or I guess I shouldn't say a pivot, we sort of grew and there became a new research arm in my lab. And this was a collaboration with Chris honey, who was a faculty at University of Toronto at the time. He's now at Johns Hopkins, and a very brave postdoc at the time, Chris Martin, who's now faculty at Florida State University. And we said, it was a crazy, crazy idea. But can we build? Can we take the computational power, this incredible computational power that we all have sitting in our pockets in the form of a smartphone? And can we take the incredible knowledge that we've gained about what the hippocampus how the hippocampus supports memory? Can we put those two things together and build a device that can compensate or at least mimic what the hippocampus is doing? To support a memory? Can we build an external hippocampus that compensates for this hippocampal damage that is so common, and so what we affectionately call the Hippocamera was born. And it's a smartphone based device that's designed to mimic the hippocampus and support memory for every day of events. This smartphone based app allows users to record and replay daily events in a manner that mimics what the brain is doing when we first learned memory. And at every step of the way, when we design this device, we have tried to integrate established principles from cognitive psychology about how we can maximize learning. So let me just before I go into the nitty gritty about what the Hippocamera is, in order to understand how it works, let me just take a step back and let's think about how the brain enables memory. So we have memory for older events and memory for recent events. And these memories tend to be supported in different ways by the brain. So memory for recent events always require your hippocampus to be encoded and remembered. However, with time aspects of these memories can be learned and supported by other new cortical regions of the brain, other parts of the brain that are sort of on the outside of the brain, not deep, very deep in inside the brain where the hippocampus is. So over time, these memories can be learned by other parts of the brain, they no longer need the hippocampus to be to be remembered. And this is a really important point. And it maybe makes maybe makes sense if you've ever interacted with somebody who has Alzheimer's disease, about the sorts of things they remember and the sorts of things that they can't. So one really important point to note is that Neural decline is not uniform across the brain. So different parts of the brain decline at different rates in healthy aging, or in disease. So the hippocampus naturally declines with age, and it's severely affected by Alzheimer's disease. But these other new cortical regions on the brain's outer surface are relatively preserved. So what this means is those recent memories that require the hippocampus are most affected by aging and Alzheimer's disease. But those older memories that can be supported by these neocortical regions on the brain's outer surface, are spared. And so, you know, if you spend time talking with somebody who has Alzheimer's disease, they can tell you all about their distant past, they remember, you know, their wedding, their childhood, and they'll go on and on about it, but they can't remember what they had for breakfast. They can't remember what happened yesterday. So it is this the fact that different, the different types of memories are supported in different ways by the brain, and that brain damage is not uniform in the brain, it disproportionately affects certain parts of the brain over others, that leads to this vulnerability of recent memories. So why, why is it the case that these recent memories are so dependent on the hippocampus, but with time, they can be supported by neocortex. And there's something so cool, I think that happens in the brain. So when a memory is first being learned, there's this very important process in the brain called hippocampal replay. And this is essential for that memory, to be stored in the long term. So what seems to be happening with hippocampal replay, it seems as if past experiences are being played out again, in our brain. So the hippocampus is like, playing out again, the events that have happened to us yet on fast forward. So if you look at the patterns of, of firing in the hippocampus, you can see they mimic that they're they're a match to the same patterns of firing that happened when that experience was, you know, happening in real life at the when it was when it was first being encoded. And then a quiet point of rest, we see those same firing patterns being re instantiated at an accelerated rate. So it's almost like you take a video of the hippocampus is taking a video and event that's happening. And then when you're sleeping, or at a quiet point of rest, it's playing that video on fast forward. And it's thought that these replay sessions are teaching the memory to other do cortical brain regions. And with this repeated replay, there's this more robust representation across the hippocampus and the neocortex. And with time, the neocortex can kind of take over these brain, these memories. But then you'll cortex can't do that if the hippocampus isn't replaying in the first place. So that's where our app steps in, we wanted to mimic this process of hippocampal, replay, and, and compensate for that damaged hippocampus. So we'll capture these memories. And then we're going to replay them, we're going to capture them with our smartphone, and we're going to replay them with our smartphone to our users so that other parts of the brain can take over, they can learn these memories and come to support them without assistance of this digital memory. Jonathan Peelle 34:31 So from like a practical standpoint, I'm going to have this app on my phone. And if there's something I think I might want to remember, like, what one of my kids is doing something cute or just just being themselves, right, I could take a little video of that event and describe it and then I'm going to I'm going to replay it later to sort of help me remember it. Morgan Barense 34:55 Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So and we're going to, you're going to create a little video We're going to speed it up, we're going to ask you to give an audio tag. So a principle called a self generated cue. So you leveraging your personal knowledge you saying, you know, even just the act of saying this is important, my kids are doing something cute. And I want to remember that that intentionality is very, very important in kind of breaking this cycle of like this mindlessness with which we live our lives. So just stopping and paying attention and saying, This is something important to me. Now I'm going to describe it, I'm going to take eight seconds, I'm going to say what's happening. And then I'm going to take a video of this, and then our app is going to, it's going to speed that video up, it's going to overlay the audio cue. And then in these replay sessions, it's going to stitch that cue of your kids doing something cute with other videos that you've taken that share, let's say, a spatial, spatial context or a temporal context, or that share common elements is going to stitch them together into a series of five events that create a coherent narrative about the events of your life things that have happened, that, that that embed even a single event in in the broader context of what you've been doing. Jonathan Peelle 36:15 So that's sort of like just anecdotally, a lot of advice about how to remember things is it's hard to remember something without any context. And so, so giving, giving something you want to remember more context is generally helpful, right. So like a list of items at the grocery store can be hard to remember. But if you sort of see them interacting with each other, or, you know, in a silly kind of scene that gives it some context that helps you remember it later. And so this is sort of like the superduper version of that where you have, like, high context events already, but then you're putting them in, in an even more context. Right, exactly. I mean, it seems like the motivation for the HIPAA camera may have come out of memory disorders and helping people with severe memory difficulty. But But actually, it's probably useful for all of us. Morgan Barense 37:09 Absolutely. You know, and I use my Hippocamera every day. And and I found that during the lockdown with the, with our most recent pandemic, it was really important to me, because the days just blended together. And that was very unsettling, you know, kind of looking up and being like, What day is it? What have I done, like everything, there were none of those contextual boundaries, those, those cues that we can use, because we were just in the same place all the time with the same people and it felt like nothing was changing. And we didn't have those anchors to mark time or, or change, you know, we didn't have that scaffold for making sense of, to attach the different events of our lives, because it was just all in this like, a morphus blob of the sameness. And so I started using the Hippocamera pretty religiously, then. And every day, at least once a day, I would focus on something unique that happened that day. And I would go through the day kind of looking for it, like what's going to be my special event today. And I'm so glad that I did that because it forced this introspection about you know, what is the unique things, what are the things that are important to me, and going back and watching it. I was like, you know, my, my life actually is, you know, is more interesting, I am doing things. They're, they're, you know, my kids are growing, they're doing cute things, even though they're driving me crazy right now. Like actually look at them. Like, this was an amazing thing that they did, and I captured it. And now I'm going to reflect on it. Jonathan Peelle 38:56 That's very cool. And I like I mean, of course, I'm, I'm duly impressed that it's built on these foundational principles of psychology and cognitive neuroscience. But also, it just seems like encouraging one to be a little bit more mindful and reflective, like has other benefits even beyond, you know, the nominal memory improvement, right? Morgan Barense 39:18 Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And the next step, I want to start thinking about how mood disorders. So depression is associated with alterations in, in memory for daily events, can we by by this intentionality by focusing on the events of our lives by trying to combat that blurring of everything and that sort of anhedonia of just like, everything is the same, but you're focusing on a positive event that you wish to remember and then actively trying to remember that? Can that improve wellbeing? Jonathan Peelle 40:00 Well, if anyone wants to try the Hippocamera for themselves, the links to that and other things we talked about are at the brain made plain dotnet. And I'd encourage you to try it out. Morgan, thanks so much for joining me today and for sharing about your work. Morgan Barense 40:17 Thank you very much. It was a real pleasure to be here. Jonathan Peelle 40:19 Alright. Bye everybody! If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe so you don't miss any new episodes. Tell a friend who might enjoy it and leave us a rating on Apple podcasts to help other people find it. You can also support the brain midplane on Patreon and get access to longer interviews and other goodies. Go to patreon.com/brainmadeplain. As always, links for every episode can be found on the website, thebrainmadeplain.net. Thanks for listening!