JEROME: Hi, everybody. It's Jerome Hardaway. I am excited to talk about Greater Than Code. Let's go ahead and make other introductions. I want to introduce one of my co-hosts, Christina.

CHRISTINA: Hey, everyone. Welcome to Episode 190. Happy to be here and excited for the conversation. And I am here with Jacob. Hi, Jacob. 

JACOB: Hello. It's my pleasure to introduce this week's guest, Joseph Leblanc. Joe first learned to code on a Zenith computer that his dad brought home from work. It was built with a blue LCD monitor and ran on 5 1/4" floppy disks. He used spreadsheets for work and was interested. He spent about an hour going over macros and took off from there. Long after the Zenith died, Joe got started in the open source content management system, Joomla landed in the center of his attention and he found himself writing a book about Joomla programming, authoring video tutorials about it for lynda, and is now giving Joomla talks and helping organize Joomla conferences. Since that time, Joe picked up Node, Rails, React, and other frameworks, and he's currently coding at True Link Financial and working on a few hobby projects. Welcome, Joe.

JOE: I am glad to be here.

JACOB: So, we're going to start the way we always start with our first question, which is what is your superpower and how did you develop it?

JOE: Yeah, hospitality. I acquired it when I married my husband, Andrew. And yeah, it was something that I thought I was really good at. And as I got to know Andrew and we got to start talking about our values as a couple, I realized that I wasn't quite as good at it as I thought I was. And so, we began to talk about that. And as I thought about it more, I've tried to see if there is a way that I can bring that value of hospitality into the work and the hobbies that I do that are tech-related.

JACOB: That's really interesting. Hospitality. There was an episode several years ago on this podcast about hospitality in terms of a code base. We sort of talked about like how a hospitable attitude and what that means for interfacing with technology. What are your thoughts about that?

JOE: I think it comes into play especially when we're looking at things like social media and creating spaces where you have conversations. When you create a space whether it's on a social media platform or a chat service, you have to make sure that everybody has a chance to participate and that the conversation is going well and that people aren't getting drowned out by noise. And that's also something that has driven me away from platforms like Facebook, in particular. I found that with Facebook, everybody has their page and they can post a status update. And it just becomes this big non-venue of two or three billion people all posting things. And there's nobody really making sure that everybody has a shot to say something and that everyone's heard.

CHRISTINA: That's so interesting. When I think about hospitality, I think more about someone coming into my home and me being hospitable. Being like, "Here's some fresh towels. Here's a fresh toothbrush and here's some breakfast." That's really interesting that you say it that way as far as being part of the ecosystem. I kind of see this as an extension of just like humanity and kindness and being fair. Yeah, that's interesting. I like that superpower. It really resonates with me, and it sounds like you're a leader. Can you maybe talk about how that impacts your leadership at home, at work, wherever? 

JOE: Yeah. It's something that I'm trying to get better at. One thing that I did at work to try to -- so, I've recently become a Software Engineering Manager. And as a part of that, I've tried to create spaces where we can discuss things that aren't necessarily on topic for a particular pull request that's going in where we can bring in. One channel that I have in our Slack group is just for engineering teams. And so, we're able to pull those specific blogs and other sources in and people can discuss episodes of podcasts and blog posts if they want to or if they don't. I think that's one channel that I can still do a better job of getting more participation in. But another venue that we have is we have a repository with issues where if we need to talk about like the way we do standards at work and it's something that's beyond the scope of a pull request, we just get in there and start talking about the details of getting a standard together, some some documentation to help people. So, it's like I've made some attempts at bringing hospitality in, but I still feel that there's kind of a limit to the extent that you can kind of apply the analogy. One thing, before I stopped using Facebook, we would get in to groups. And a lot of those groups were ones where my husband and I were a part of, where we tried to make sure that people had an equal chance to say things and that people weren't taking over.

JACOB: Joe, you wanted to talk a little bit about social media generally. What's on your mind?

JOE: What's on my mind with social media is we think of it as this free platform for us to get on and use. And when you really think about it, though, we have to pay a lot of money and buy equipment to actually use it. At least here in the United States, most people are paying like upwards of $60 or $70 a month for a home Internet connection through cable. And then on top of that, you're paying another like probably $50 or $60 per line for your cell phones. And before you know it, a household is paying between $100 and $200 a month easily to access the Internet. And then we get Facebook, where not just our data, but really just our presence is used and monetized and sometimes turned against us. And I feel like for the $100 to $200 a month that we're spending on Internet access, there should be more that's just built-in that isn't under the control of a company like Facebook.

CHRISTINA: So, make a free and open Internet, is that what you're thinking along the line with?

JOE: Yeah. If you think back to the 90's when we all kind of first started getting Internet access, there were two apps you could think of, if you thought of email and web as an app. And so, the web was all about publishing, and email was all about correspondence. And with both of these services, they're all non-vendor specific. So, I could use any web browser I want to connect to the web and any email client I want to connect to email. But when it comes to things like Facebook and Google Hangouts and these other services, you're basically using their clients to connect. And what I'm really seeing a need for is something that's in between that can do real-time communication that has an open source client or an open source protocol really that people could connect to.

CHRISTINA: It's fascinating. I'm like deep in thought. [Giggles] 

JEROME: Yeah, same.

CHRISTINA: I'm trying to envision what that would look like, because I feel like I've heard of places where they're kind of doing that today. Well, maybe not the way you're envisioning it, but I guess the starting point or building a foundation of kind of community-based services. But I think you're talking more along the lines of progressive web apps or like a web app perspective as well, not only the foundational or the core service, but everything else that kind of lays on top of it.

JOE: Yeah. Part of what I thought is what would be really helpful is if we had some way of connecting and communicating with each other where we have positive I.D. on who we're communicating with, so we don't have to exchange, we don't have to go out to Google or Facebook or some other service. And where it's also not on the other end of the spectrum, where we have email where emails can be forged and that sort of thing. But what I'm thinking more along the lines of is some sort of a channel or a way of establishing channels that the people could establish and then invite people to and communicate on. It could be chat, could be video, could be messages and all these things that we currently end up having to go to a Facebook or Google for to get.

CHRISTINA: Ooh, so more like along the lines of open source. Do you envision kind of block chain playing a role?

JOE: That's an interesting question, because I have thought of it. This is something where block chain could be used. But I've never been that interested in crypto for these sorts of things. It's something where it's definitely something that you could use to ensure authenticity and security.

CHRISTINA: Yeah, that makes sense, because the point that you brought up earlier, or in some of your comms is that you need to stop acting like social media is free. I have a security background and privacy background, so I like to think that nothing is free. I mean, everything comes with a cost. Anything that kind of markets itself as free, it really means that you are the product.

JOE: Yes, exactly.

CHRISTINA: Like you said, they are collecting, aggregating your data. They're collecting this data, they're making assumptions, you're building these profiles, and that's the price. And they don't necessarily disclose everything, or they may, but no one ever reads those privacy policies or terms of use agreements.

JEROME: We made a joke about that. I recently made a joke about that because I started a new job and I said the reason why I needed access to my machine, which was awhile. And I wrote this really long paragraph, and my boss was like, "Why didn't you just say because you're a programmer?" I was like, "Well, I figured it the more I write, the sooner they get it done." I asked have any of us have read the Apple terms and conditions." And everyone laughed. "Oh yeah, you're right. No one's read that." They own us, for all we know, but that's [inaudible]. 

JOE: Yeah. It's almost like we should be presenting companies with our terms of service saying this is how you may use my data. And here's a data that I'm going to provide and here's the context that you're allowed to use it in, regardless of whether it's out there or not.

JEROME: The idea of data when it comes to me from my experience, is kind of weird data security because I was military. So, I'm like, "Uncle Sam knows everything about you already." But I understand. So that's where my laissez faire don't care mentality comes from. [Inaudible] out there, someone's going to find out. And [inaudible] been hacked three times since I've been out. So, I'm like, "Okay, everything's out there probably." I understand it. But I guess where we're coming from the idea of using it for profits and gaining, like financial gain. That's where people you're really concerned about their data, which is really, I guess, kind of with my background is kind of unusual to me because wouldn't you want your data to be aggregated so that the things that people are selling to you are actually the things that you want them to sell to you?

JACOB: I was saving this potentially for when we wrap up. But it's just so relevant, I think I need to bring it up. There's a company called UBDI, which I don't know anyone's heard of, but it stands for Universal Basic Data Income. And so, their premise is like, if we're all products, every time we go on the Internet, all of us are being sold. Our data is being sold. We should at least get to get a cut of that. And so, it's this platform where they are basically, it's one place where you can grant permission for them to grab data on you from wherever - Netflix, Twitter or whatever. And then people who would like to buy data, they can come to UBDI instead of going directly to that provider. And then you can get a few bucks for your own data. And I just thought that was such an interesting paradigm shift, just like you said, which is like, if they're going to be selling, I at least would like to think that I can get some kind of benefit out of it. I think you're speaking to that frustration, which is that this sort of business model really doesn't [crosstalk]. 

JEROME: I can see that. All right. So, we have to buy the services to be able to use the Internet, which is "free". And then the using of the final services to get online, all these products are free. But what they're really doing is aggregating our data and then selling it or [inaudible] of their goods. So technically, we're the suckers because we're paying for the tools and services to get access to the Internet and then we're using the products for free, but they're getting all of our data to sell us stuff. So, yeah, we are the suckers. When you look at it, we are getting nothing out of it. Thank you for changing. I'm on. 

JACOB: I wouldn't say it's a benefit because it doesn't seem like any of the social media companies are doing a good job at it. But one potential benefit of a centralized model is preventing harassment. And a model that's like email, which is with an open protocol, that's one concern that I would have. And yeah, what are your thoughts about that?

JOE: My thought with that is that one of the things that I have tried to kind of implement one of these ideas for channels of communication has been to look at what we already have and see if I can build something on top of that. And the one idea I had is one that I call e-mail plus where you start off by basically starting over and saying, "Okay, we're going to use messages as channels." And you also have to explicitly invite somebody kind of into your realm before they can communicate with you. And in that way, you're not just receiving random messages from people. It's going to be people that you know and people that you can positively I.D. and say they're part of this conversation. And that's one idea I've had for trying to make something like this happen.

JEROME: So, you're essentially going to social media the email process? But will that actually hurt email? How do you like make, especially in a virtual world that we're in right now, if I don't know you because I'm stuck at home and my network is stuck like [inaudible], like the amount of people who I've met, IRL, you're not going to be able to email me. So, there might be an opportunity out there hiring manager, donor sponsor, like that who, "Okay, I have to invite this person," but I don't know who's being touched by the things that I make or is looking for the talent that I provide or who's even looking at my skills to be able to make that determination 100% of the time. [Inaudible] if it wasn't for or someone talking about me and then you begin to co-email from the hiring manager about the current job I'm in, I don't know if this job existed. [Inaudible] talk to hiring manager, [inaudible] job. Or I have a veteran in Amazon now who [inaudible]. I feel like that whole adding the gate or barrier of entry to email kind of goes against the openness of e-mail and how powerful the tool is.

JOE: Yeah, we would still have to have e-mail itself in the way that we know it now. But the thought is more to kind of create another thing on top of it. And part of that also is kind of revealing how my attempts at trying to create this has not kind of have not succeeded as much as I'd like. It kind of comes back to more of the idea that we need these channels where we have people that we already know and trust, where we can host conversations. And currently, a lot of that's happening on platforms like Facebook that we've talk about how Facebook is.

CHRISTINA: Spy on us. 

JACOB: They spy on us. Yes. [Laughs]

CHRISTINA: I get it. I mean, I like it. I like where you're going. I mean, it's like open source thing, not giving the control to one entity, one company who in turn end up owning our data. Even Gmail, they get this free email addresses. You can sign up for free email address, but they basically scan our mailboxes. So, anything that's in our mailbox, they have access to. 

JEROME: Isn't it a monopoly that we give it all to one company?

CHRISTINA: Well, not really to one company because you have options. So, they don't own email per se. Even though they're probably one of the largest providers. But you can have your own domain. You can go to Yahoo, whoever still uses Yahoo. You can go to any other email provider - Outlook Microsoft, so they don't own the space. But I think they have a lot of leverage in the space. Regardless for the folks who do use Gmail as your primary email provider, we're basically consenting to Google doing whatever they want because they're storing that data and they can scan that data. It would be nice if it would be not owned and we would have options that are open source, still secure, obviously, private but not owned by a particular company, to Joseph's point.

JOE: Yeah, exactly. But also, in terms of, we currently have services like Slack and Microsoft Teams, which is kind of like a similar service that does company-wide chat. And if I am on a Slack instance and I want to contact somebody that's using Microsoft Teams, I either have to go and sign up for Microsoft Teams account and join them, or they have to sign up for a Slack account and join me. And then even within Slack, it's like you can't use the same login for multiple Slack instances. You have to create a new account for every Slack instance you're a part of. And if we can have something where we're not being spied on and it's our data and there's a protocol where we can all access it and use whatever clients we want to use, that's the kind of thing that I would hope that we could get for $100 and $200 a month for Internet access. 

JEROME: Like a key? Here's this thing. This is all of me. This is what I am authorizing to use it for, or something that you can say, "I would like to be able to no longer authorize people how to use it." I didn't even give my email. This was, I think, almost 15 years ago. While I was in Iraq, I was being stupid and I tried Marlboro cigarettes the first time, only time ever. And somehow, they have my data to the point where I'll still randomly get like an ad from them. And I'm like, "I was like 20 and stupid when I did this. How are you still tracking me after 13 years?" That's scary. I've moved four times and I'm in a different city. I'm like, "That's wild." If the key could do that, I would be on board.

JOE: Exactly. You would have your key and you'd give them the key and say you can communicate with me with this key on this channel. And when I delete the key, it's gone. And that's it.

JEROME: Like a consent package.

JOE: Yeah. 

JACOB: Very interesting.

CHRISTINA: There's something that Microsoft is actually working called -- it's based on the foundational concept of block chain. But it's -- and I know nothing about block chain, but it's basically like a distributed identity kind of model where it's similar to that. You own this concept of the key and then you can choose to, if you wanted to exchange information with an entity, let's say a university or your doctor's office or whatever, you would own the key and you would have, whether it's on your phone or whatever, a digital key, and then you would give them this access in exchange for whatever. So, you would like verify your identity, they would confirm it. And then they would give you your diploma. And then basically, you can sever that connection after that exchange happens. So, you basically own your identity rather than having distributed companies all over the world own your identity.

It's all in kind of development but they've released a lot of good research on it. It looks promising, but we'll see how that goes. But I think it relates to that concept. I mean, I envision a world where, Joe, maybe to your point, where you could buy a device, like a router. Or you can build your own device and they just plug it into power and then that's it. You don't have to go through files or charter or whatever. You just, I don't know, do some magic stuff or something and it connects you to this source. No one owns the source and you just pay some fee or whatever. And you don't have to worry about anyone owning your data.

JOE: Something I've thought of is maybe buying a spare computer and setting it up as an experiment. It's like, "This is my channel box or my cable box. These are all the channels that are on it." And I could use that as a way of inviting people into those channels to connect. I mean, of course, we'd have to write software to make that useful or helpful. But yeah, that's definitely something that's a consideration that could go into this. 

JEROME: Cool, like Dell. Or maybe like the ultra carbon disk that they have. I don't know. You can't use my data, unless I give you access to it. That goes to another joke about that stuff. There was a joke that went to [inaudible]. How would we be able to use this for children? I don't know if you guys have kids or anything. But I'm a dad.

CHRISTINA: I have a couple of kids. 

JEROME: Yeah, I know right. Nightmare.

JACOB: Yeah, me too. 

[Laughter]

JEROME: I only get concerned with data when it comes to my kids because I am like, harsh reality. No matter how many conversations you have with them, to them you're a boomer even if you aren't 60 and you don't understand. And they're going to do what they want to do. Quite frankly, I have three boys. They're idiots. So, how would this work? And the idea of protecting children because oh, my goodness, the arguments. They say they can't be on there until they're like 13. I guess that's the agreed age before social media [inaudible] start tracking all your kids' shit. But it's terrifying because, "All right. Your ability to do profiles from 13, from TikTok and Instagram. They're all too cool to use Twitter and Facebook. So now I have to have a TikTok account to monitor my kids. But how would that work? How as a parent, me as a parent, concerned about their data because [inaudible] companies tracking everything that's going on with my kids. How would I be able to, or even worse, like the discourse [inaudible] world. I'm absolutely terrified of those two sites because everybody who is horribles seems to be on those sites. So, [inaudible] to protect them from that? What's your thoughts on solving that problem?

JOE: Man, I do not have solutions for that. And it's all the more depressing to think about just because it's like, I started programming when I was eight and I had access to a computer at that point. And now, if an eight-year old gets on a computer, it's like access to all this garbage.

JEROME: Yes.

JOE: And it is such a different game. I don't know. 

JEROME: It felt like the [inaudible] commercials back in my day. Remember the Internet was a safe place for kids. And I'm like, "No." [Inaudible] [Laughs] 

CHRISTINA: I think it's a valid use case. I think it's going to take a lot of education. Because like you said, kids really do what they want to do. So, I think as parents, it's our responsibility to pretty much keep it real with them and give them the good with the bad, like super real. And show them the news stories and whether you want to filter out or not, that's up to you. But I try to keep it real. I have my nine-year old. She figured out how to set up an account on the -- I don't know. I don't remember what it was. Not TikTok, one of those. And I discovered it and I had to basically e-mail the CEO and say, "My daughter's nine and she was able to accept your privacy policy." Even though I've spoken to her, and she was able to post videos, we just have to continue to educate. 

JEROME: Yeah. But the thing about that, like you and me, I mean, we're on this call. We're technical and we're still like -- 

CHRISTINA: It's our problem to solve.

JEROME: Yeah. We're operating at the edge of our abilities with this one when it comes to your kids. Now, imagine a blue-collar worker that has absolutely the most they do on the Internet is watch sports and go to Facebook to talk about sports. If our heads are hard in trying to solve this, just imagine that parent. Oh, my goodness. This is a nightmare. Just imagine if you're average, we're in the middle of church or grocery store. Those people, they are not, we are not qualified. Oh, my goodness. Christina, think about your neighbors, the stress they're going through. My next-door neighbor has four daughters, all ranged in age like 13 and 19. I am like, first, wow. Second, how are you keeping up with trying to keep them out of trouble? And I'm just like, it's impossible at this age that those ages you're just hoping that no one goes to jail. Oh, my goodness.

CHRISTINA: Yeah. Again, it's a really difficult problem to solve. And I think that it's not always about throwing technology at every problem. I think it would have been solved already if that were the case. [Crosstalk] It is important to amplify.

JEROME: We made it worse.

[Laughter]

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JEROME: Now that we have all these new things to be scared of, I'm pretty sure [inaudible] like, "Oh, that's what parents think about?" I guess that these are all the nightmares and all things [inaudible] when it comes to our data. It's not even our data that we care about, it's our kids' data. So, are you trying to lead the movement to get off of everything? And how does that look for you beyond like, we have a key where we pick and choose our data point, who has access to our data. How's that rolling out look like to you from a, "Hey, Facebook. I know you've made billions of dollars off our data, but now we're not going to give it to you willy-nilly. So, we need to figure out a new system so that way, you can still make the money to pay your brilliant engineers. But [inaudible] not getting every data point under the sun on me. Or like Twitter, "Hey, this is a new data. These are the new rules. If you want me to play in your web site, this is the new rules." How would you envision that roll out?

JOE: I have tried to kind of do stuff on my own up until now, and have tried to see what would the design for this look like. I've tried to do some blogging and some thinking and writing around that, and it hasn't really gotten anywhere. And I'm kind of at a point now where I want to -- I'm mainly off Facebook for my personal mental health, more than anything. But realistically, I know that Facebook is going to be around for some time. And if there is a way to roll this out, I think we just have to start with people who are willing to be hobbyists and willing to play around with something that's not fully developed yet. And that's kind of where I would want to start, is finding people who want to build this and take it from there.

JEROME: Roger that. Thank you.

JOE: Yeah, I think there is just a lot of experimentation that was present, especially in the earlier stages of the Internet when email and the web were being developed where I think Tim Berners Lee -- I can't remember this verbatim, but I think it was that he left this server on at the research center over Christmas and they were going to cut power to the server. And he was all concerned about, like if somebody were to try to access it and we'd be down, but then realized he was the only person that knew about this. And there was all kind of not a big issue after all. And to think that it started from there and took off is something that gives me a little bit of encouragement that maybe doing some experiments early on and trying to get people involved isn't as absurd an idea as it might seem on the surface.

CHRISTINA: It's never. I don't think it's ever an absurd idea. I think that a lot of our most innovative and creative ideas have come from this type of research and development. So, I definitely encourage you to continue exploring, and just kind of leveraging maybe some of the ideas -- or not ideas, but maybe some of the stuff that's kind of out that other folks are working on in the open source community, or kind of open distributed Internet and tech community, I think is super important.

JOE: Yes, I view this as a form of activism. Maybe you're looking at it from a technical situation when it should be more social. Just having these types of conversations more and more and amplifying the conversations because it is a concern. And we deal with this type of situation. Even now, the voices have gotten so loud when it comes to racism, when it comes to sexism, sexual harassment, sexual assault, that the changes are coming and are coming fast. But they're actually really slow. It looks abrupt, but these are like hundreds of years in the making. So maybe you should take that approach, like this is the next form of activism. How do we get companies to play nice with our data? How do we get control back of our data? Because essentially, somewhere, there's a version of me. There's a digital version of me running around. Yeah, I think that's a different approach for it I might look into.

JACOB: Should we transition to reflections?

CHRISTINA: Yeah. Thank you. This was great. This is a great conversation, Joe. You really got me thinking about what could be, and just possibilities. I think it's important that folks like you exist and that you continue to challenge the status quo. So, I learned a lot today about the value and the power of just open source. Like I said, I knew but I learned more and it just reaffirmed that. And also, the power of kind of thinking beyond, "Oh, it's okay because they have all the information already." Or like, "Yeah, well, we need them. So I'm going to just use the first app that already did it because they already did it." So yeah, this was really insightful. So, thanks for the chat. It was really great.

JOE: Thanks.

JACOB: I have a three-year old and right now, the basic policy is if I hand him my phone, I'm basically accepting anything that could be done wrong, deleted, bought, et cetera. I'm basically accepting that risk [laughs] because he's not old enough for me to tell him, "Okay, you can use this app, but don't download anything or don't go into this other app." It's basically if he can touch it, he can do it. And yes, I'm thinking about as he's getting older and I want him to become like not a thoughtful technologist, what do I need to do to sort of prepare him for that? And yeah, I'm really glad that you brought that up because that's going to be something that I'm going to be ready for pretty darn soon.

JEROME: Yeah. As a parent of a 12-year old or 13-year old and a 16-year old, it is a constant 'and the goalpost keeps moving'. But it's constant like musical chairs and trying to figure out, it's the world's hardest algorithm, trying to figure out how do I protect their data? How do I keep them off the web from doing silly things? How do I keep crazy and nefarious things from finding them? It's a full-time job. It's a job on top of a job. So, if you can ever figure that out, Joe, I will gladly invest. I'll buy whatever service.

JACOB: Yeah, I think that's something we're a little shy of now is like maybe we ought to, as a public, get used to the idea like maybe a service that protects our privacy is actually a better alternative than just because it's free.

JOE: My reflection on this is a reminder that other people are thinking about this and that I'm not the only one. We all are concerned about privacy and definitely hearing more about raising kids and trying to figure out where the lines are with technology and what you can do, if anything, to protect your kids. I do not have kids. And so, that's not something that's always on top of my mind. 

JEROME: This idea that going from that focal point is probably a great way to start, because I know for a fact that people are concerned about their kids, they [inaudible] more than they're concerned about their data. [Inaudible] Uncle Sam knows everything about me, whatever. Then we start out want my kids, and that's a real concern. When I'm thinking about me, I'm like, "Screw it. I don't take care." But when it comes to my kids, I absolutely want to know everything that's going on at all times. I come off as a hard-ass but I'm a helicopter parent. 

JACOB: Thanks, everybody, for joining us for Episode 190. And we'll see you next time.