CHANTE: Hello and welcome to another episode of Greater Than Code. My name is Chante Thurmond and I'm here today with my co-host, Coraline Ada Ehmke.

CORALINE: Hi, everybody. We have a great show today. I'm here with a dear friend of mine, Amber Conville. Amber is the Director of Engagement and Growth at Test Double, after several years as a software developer. She loves helping humans, code in lots of languages, and the software community, and can be found speaking at or helping out with user groups, conferences, and nerd gatherings wherever and whenever possible. Welcome to the show, Amber.

AMBER: Thanks for having me.

CORALINE: So, if you've listened to this show before, which I hope you have, you know we always start out with our trademark question. Amber, what is your superpower and how did you develop it?

AMBER: I think that my superpower is being able to adapt to a situation 95% of the time. It's something that I think I've developed just through going through lots of different life situations with lots of different kinds of people. We all have like from trauma stories, but there's also just a lot of anxiety that I have. So figuring out how to navigate social situations with different kinds of people in the society. And then kind of learning how to navigate things like that in a professional setting, solving problems and learning about domains and helping people succeed without making them feel like I'm here to take their job or something like that. Back story, I've been a consultant for like a decade at this point. So that's I think where a lot of that came from and has really influenced my career now to help other people grow in the same way.

CORALINE: And I know from personal experience I've spoken at self.conference, which you organize multiple times, maybe four out of five of the conferences. And I've always found you to be a very kind and very empathetic person and I'm sure that translates into your working life as well.

AMBER: Thanks. I appreciate that.

CHANTE: Speaking of self.conference, I was online just loving what I saw and I'm like, "How have I never heard of self.conference?" I mean, I'm in Chicago and I grew up in the Midwest and everything I've been here. But to just know that that was happening over in Detroit is just so heartwarming and inspiring and encouraging. Can you tell us a little bit about the back story and how you came to start with self.conference and why you named it self.conference?

AMBER: Back when it started, there was kind of a homogenous software community in Detroit, in the city itself. It was very [inaudible] white male, it was very Java-focused. And there's nothing wrong with any of that, but there really wasn't any place for anyone else. A lot of the conferences that were local specifically would say they don't want things like soft talks because that's when this was back when people still send soft talks and they just didn't think that who would want to go to that and why would that have a place in a software conference? It's not software, it's human skill. So, a friend of mine and I just kind of got together and we thought we could do something that is similar, that's like inclusive to a lot more groups. We can do a lot of reaching out across the country. We could reach out to a lot of, Girl Develop It was still a thing at that time, Black Girls Code. Blacks in Technology has been a partner for years and years and we thought like, "People exist, we can bring them to Detroit." They can see that we're doing software in Detroit and we can talk about the stuff that the people who are already here are not getting. So we wanted it to be half tech talks and half people talks. And we wanted it to be a speaker lineup that didn't look like all the other speaker lineups in the area. So, we wanted it to be a lot more diverse, a lot more perspectives in it. And since the beginning, we've actually, we started with gender [inaudible], but we actually from the beginning got, I think 50% soft and people in tech talks right away and we all saw, I think that gender parity right away. And so we've been kind of building on that since we're coming up on our seventh year next year. And it's just been really awesome. We are really small conference. Not a lot of people have heard of us, so hoping to change that this year.

CHANTE: That's super inspiring. And I love the fact that you started off with saying, "Hey, let's start with an achievable kind of basic goal," which was let's try to get more gender parity, more diversity and you have to start somewhere. Have you added more metrics or tried to diversify since then? Tell us about the evolution from conference one to now going into your seventh conference, you said?

AMBER: Yup. A lot of it is partnering with the sorts of organizations I was talking about and kind of expanding that as we go. We actually post metrics every year from our survey. And the survey that we do: if anybody who has a ticket speaker or otherwise, if you'd feel comfortable, tell us what you identify as racially gender-wise and then we post it on the site. So, if you go to any past years on self.conference.org, you should be able to go through the menu and see a metrics link.

CORALINE: That kind of transparency is really awesome and I think probably serves a few different purposes. One, to hold yourself accountable one to celebrate the diversity that you've managed to achieve and also to maybe inspire other conferences too, to start with to care about things like that. And then to scrutinize themselves and see what they could be doing differently to attract a more diverse audience.

AMBER: One of my goals with the larger kind of umbrella organization is to put together something called ConfConf, which will be like a retreat for conference organizers to get together and talk about exactly these things. Like how do we build a more inclusive audience, how do we build a more inclusive conference? And kind of share that beyond just self.conference and the few conferences that are doing it.

CORALINE: Is that a thing that you've already done or is that coming up?

AMBER: It's probably next year or the year after that, I'll do that. For self.conference this upcoming year, if there's actually going to be a one day precursor conference called <title of conf> which is a tech conference, but the musical and the main organizer of that is Aisha Blake, but that is being put on by selfdot org, which is the umbrella nonprofit.

CORALINE: Yeah. Well, I hear more about title of conference and I did have a chance to meet Aisha, which was really wonderful earlier this year. But tell me about the selfdot org.

AMBER: So selfdot org, the original kind of purpose of making a software more accessible to everyone with self.conference was always with a goal of being able to kind of expand to the Detroit neighborhoods. Right now, neighborhoods in Detroit don't get a lot of attention. It's very like these are the businesses downtown and the training for the most part that's downtown costs money, like a lot of money. So, they're expecting people [inaudible] to send them there. So the neighborhoods are kind of getting left out. Let alone, we have a huge homeless population. So the idea behind selfdot is that we run conferences. But also we're going to start providing basic computer and programming literacy for free to people who live in Detroit. Like you just needed to trade license. As well as the homeless population. We're planning to partner with the local shelters to provide that support.

CORALINE: That's amazing.

AMBER: We're thinking that'll be really cool. We're planning that for next year.

CORALINE: And are you also partnering with organizations that serve marginalized populations in that effort as well? I know you mentioned Blacks in Tech and Black Girls Code.

AMBER: Privately, I think that will be hyperlocal, at least to start. I know that people have already reached out from other countries saying, "Oh, we want to do this in this country." I'm like, "Okay, we haven't even gotten started in Detroit yet. Let's start with that." [Laughs]

CORALINE: Some more local partnerships then.

AMBER: Yes, that's for sure. Starting with homeless shelters and kind of building from there, the homeless community centers and [inaudible].

CHANTE: Well, you mentioned that one of the things to qualify was that they would have to show a license, but I'm guessing that wouldn't necessarily be the case then for the homeless community, right?

AMBER: Right. So that would be through a partnership with the local shelters. And honestly, we don't have 100% of the details worked out. Right now, this is very nascent.

CHANTE: Nice. It's just still evolving. Sounds like a great concept nonetheless. Are you a Detroit native?

AMBER: I am. Yep. I grew up in the suburbs like 20 minutes West of here and moved here about seven years ago. And I really love it here.

CHANTE: Yeah, Detroit's interesting. I mean, it's one of those cities where I'm paying attention to because there's been a lot of revitalization efforts, initiatives taking place there. So, I'm happy to see that and hear that. And this I think is just another one of those, I guess, the proof that there's things that are happening in Detroit. And I think it's inspiring because it has been a hotbed of innovation and then it stopped. But I think it shows that there's a lot of vitality left in the city.

AMBER: Yeah, absolutely. The people of Detroit are really, like, if you've ever visited here, you can just kind of feel talking to anybody who is from Detroit. People love this city. People have a lot of pride in it. And I think it's just important to make sure that everyone's involved in the revitalization effort. No one gets left out.

CORALINE: It almost strikes me as a microcosm of the shift from Detroit, of course, was the center of automobile manufacturing and it's maybe a microcosm of the shift from manufacturing to knowledge work in a way.

AMBER: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And we have a lot of startup incubators here, but we also just have a lot of startups, lots of bigger companies moved to the city. I mean obviously [inaudible] little bit cheaper on these like skyscrapers and things, but being able to provide cheap rent for incubators and companies that are just starting up has really been instrumental in kind of kicking off a startup scene here.

CHANTE: Yeah. In terms of that, to be honest with you, I don't know all the data in terms of the startup community there, but it seems to me that it's got to be strong because you are in tech. And you said that you've been working as a consultant for the last 10 years?

AMBER: Yep.

CHANTE: And so tell us about that journey, the evolution of working in the Detroit market as a woman in tech. How has that been for you?

AMBER: It's been an adventure, for sure. [Laughs] I feel like lots of different phases of my understanding and enlightenment and empowerment thing. So, anyone starting a new job, it's going to feel like the new person. I think being able to grow and learn what was different between being a new person and being the odd person and then how to kind of close that gap has really been the name of the game. [Laughs]

CHANTE: Yeah, I can imagine. And so what's the community like for women in tech or those who identify as women? What's the scene or the vibe like there?

AMBER: It's really strong here these days. It's really awesome. After Girl Develop It sort of imploded to the women that ran it in Ann Arbor, started something called tech [inclusive] and they're just doing an amazing job and it's not just gender-based but they're running classes similar to what that might have looked like with GDI. But I think it's more cost-effective and a lot more people included in it. It's very cool.

CHANTE: Are you involved in any of it, like on a board or as an advisor? How have you inserted yourself? I mean obviously curating an event like self.conference for instance, gives you access and probably broadens the horizon for you. But just curious on maybe if a woman is listening in Detroit, how would she go about getting involved in inserting herself or assuming that she's already in tech. But let's assume if she's not, how does she go about doing that?

AMBER: That's a good question. I would say check out tech [inclusive]. They have a meetup site there in Ann Arbor. They are great and I think that from there, you can probably branch out into other resources like that. I'm not sure what else is available local to Detroit other than just visiting self.conference and meetups like that. There is a Detroit Speaker Group also, if somebody is interested in kind of breaking into conference speaking.

CORALINE: And we will have links to tech [inclusive], self.conference and the Detroit Speaker Group in the shownotes.

AMBER: Like you might think that selfdot org is about the self, but it seems like it's a selfless act that you're doing in terms of being behind this initiative. You know, I've gone back and forth. Honestly, when self.conference was first named, I was an iOS developer and I thought it was cutesy. [Inaudible] and that's what we kind of agreed as a small group who are getting it started. But I've been thinking about it a lot, especially before we decided to make a name, selfdot, not that you can do these things yourself as part of community. Self.conference, you go to a conference, self.learn is the programming and computer literacy stuff. Self.work, we're going to start a co-working space that's inclusive and affordable and out in the neighborhoods a little bit more.

CHANTE: Wow. So you have big plans. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that because I guess I don't know the full extent of what selfdot is and then who's helping you run it. Maybe would you mind telling the listeners about that?

AMBER: Sure. So selfdot is just sort of, that was another part of that cheeky thing. Selfdot is like the prefix for self.conference, but also self.learn which is the basic programming and computer literacy programs. Self.work, which is going to be our inclusive and affordable workspace for co-working. I mean, that's really it. We have conferences that we run. So we've got self.conference and we've got <title of conf> and then hopefully ConfConf after that. And that's the big plans for right now so far.

CORALINE: I want to hear more about <title of conf>. Aisha was talking about it a little bit and the idea of a musical conference appeals to me as a musician. So, what is that all about?

AMBER: So honestly that is Aisha Blake's brainchild and she is running with everything. She's the main organizer. I'm not on the organizer team for that. But from what I understand, it's literally a musical, but a tech conference. So things like talking about maybe PostgreSQL or something like that, but in song. And it sounds super fun and super cool.

CHANTE: Who else is involved in that organization and running it with you?

AMBER: Our current board for selfdot org is myself, Aisha Blake, who's also been an organizer of self.conference for the last couple of years. [Inaudible] who hasn't been involved previously but is super excited about the idea and being part of everything as well as Jer Lance who used to be on the board of Penguicon and it's just around local communities [inaudible].

CHANTE: Wow. So, there's only four of you doing this?

AMBER: Yep.

CHANTE: That's four people can change the world, huh?

AMBER: We'll see.

CHANTE: This is really pretty great. I'm guessing that before you got into doing this work that none of you were necessarily aspiring to be conference organizers. But how have you managed that, navigated this world because this is like an actual market place. There's companies who do this for a living and are killing it. So to be doing it independently in a grassroots effort, do you have any recommendations for others who want to do something like this in another part of the country or another country altogether?

AMBER: Absolutely. Talk to people who've done it before and get as much advice out of them as possible. I've done a lot of this conference by the seat of my pants and that's why we're six years in. And people right across the lake haven't heard of it. It's a lot of learning. There's a lot of context and there's a lot of things that you just probably wouldn't even think of. So definitely seek out somebody who is already running a conference and talk to them.

CHANTE: What's been the biggest learning for you or the biggest takeaway for you?

AMBER: Honestly, I think the thing I'm still constantly learning is the thing that's hardest for me, which is asking people for money. In a perfect world, everything would just be free for all of our attendees. I wouldn't have to try to sell tickets because I really hate having to do that at all. But more importantly, I wouldn't have to hunt down companies for sponsorships and that's been the hardest thing for me and I still don't know how to do it properly. But the organizing team for this year has people who aren't, not me, [inaudible].

CORALINE: Amber, you've put your own money in this self.conference too, right?

AMBER: Oh yeah, a lot of it. Way too much of it. [Laughs] I think I calculated after this year, it came up to between $70,000 and $80,000 of my own money over the last six years.

CORALINE: Wow.

CHANTE: Yeah. That's the unsexy part of these things that people don't really talk about. But I do think that there's power in discussing it because one of the things that, I mean, if we're talking about gender parity and just equity in general and inclusion, this is something you have to think about, like what it actually costs to start something up that is moving us in that direction, that there's a cost associated with it. Can you tell us a little bit more like, has that been hard to grapple with? Do you feel like the end justifies the means? Like talk to us about that.

AMBER: Absolutely. So obviously that puts a pretty -- you know, I'm not a wealthy person. That's had some pretty severe financial strain on me and my life and subsequently, my family. Lucky for me, my partner is totally supportive of all of these efforts and totally okay with it. When I started freaking out about it, like, "Oh, I have to pay all this money," because last year was a particularly rough one. She's like, "That's fine. We'll just sell the house and live in a cardboard box. I don't really care."

[Laughter]

AMBER: "As long as I'm with you." So that's just the kind of person that she is. But I think that something to shine a spotlight on is that it's particularly hard to get sponsorships for conferences that not only are broadly focused, so we don't have a specific tech that we focus on. We have many picks, just tech in general as well as kind of touchy feely, "Let's talk about how we communicate with each other. Let's talk about how we include each other." It's very hard to get any kind of sponsorship money for that. I think companies are good at talking a big game about it, but often it comes down to one person who has to make that decision for a recruiting budget or for a marketing budget. And it just doesn't fit in any of those places, which might make sense, but it does make it a lot harder, let alone the fact that we're a very small conference. We usually have between 100 and 150 people and that's just not super attractive to a company to give us money to run this thing. So those are the things we're still sort of grappling with and trying to figure out. As for if it's worth it, I think absolutely. I think so.

CORALINE: I've gotten so much out of attending the conference. It's been really wonderful for me and expands the kinds of people that I'm meeting and circumstances that they're under. Chicago's like very much I think a bubble in a similar way to the way San Francisco is, just at a smaller scale. And it's been great for me to meet different people. I never would have met Aisha, for example, in my normal life. And there are a lot of people that I've met and a lot of friendships that are formed just from going to self.conference and being part of that community. It's been very impactful on my life.

AMBER: That's awesome to hear. Even just you saying that. Even just one person having had an impact and gotten value out of it is sort of worth it to me. I don't know, maybe I'm like too much of a hippie, but I feel like being in debt is really like, it's just capitalism turn into stress.

CHANTE: Yes. The cost does not get in the way of the benefit, which is good for once. I haven't gone to the website to look at the metrics to tell people or to tell the audience right now about what people are getting out of the conference. But could you maybe give us a highlighted reel of that because I would love to hear just from conference number one to the most recent one, what have you been hearing, what do people say, why do they return? Why are you having returned sponsors? I'd love to hear what you have to say.

AMBER: Honestly, we do have a pool of returning sponsors that sponsor every year. And they say that they do it because they want to support this kind of effort and they want to support it in Detroit. And so it makes sense for them to put their sponsorship dollars towards making this continue to happen. And that's really heartening. So I think when people see that company has sponsored us, that doesn't just mean somebody in a marketing position decided that this would look real good on the bottom line or help them in some way. It's because that company made a conscious decision to help a small grassroots conference about inclusivity, diversity in tech, and they care about that stuff. This is the kind of company that you want to go work for, if that's something that's important to you. So that's been really lovely. Other things too. When we first started, we had this vision of the Detroit software community and I'm not going to lie, my friend and I that started it with me initially, we said, "If we do this thing or it's half tech and half people talk, we can kind of trick people who wouldn't normally go to a people talk seem to go and do a people talk and kind of widening their perspective. And every year, there's always a bunch of people that are like, "You know, I don't think I would have gone to this AMA about being trans that Alex Harms did. I don't think I normally would have gone to that just at a conference, but I went. And now my mind is blown. Thanks for having this venue available." And it's comments like that that really make it worth it.

CHANTE: Have you heard anything specifically about how that makes them better technologists or better at their job or better leaders?

AMBER: One person in particular really stood out to me. They went to a talk I did about diversity at another local conference, Agile and Beyond. And they attended self.conference and it changed their perspectives such that they quit their job and started their own company based entirely around inclusivity.

CORALINE: Wow.

CHANTE: That little nugget right there, I'm sure that that takes you far. "I inspired somebody to quit their job and start their own thing around this."

AMBER: Yeah, I was shocked.

CHANTE: That's the ultimate return on investment for you. That's really great. I'm really curious about these type of things. I guess, one of the things I focus on for my own work outside of this particular project is I'm focusing on human potential. And I'm looking at the intersection of like how human potential, emerging technology, the future of work and radical inclusion all come together. how they might influence one another. And my thesis on all of this is that at the end of the day, we want to be good humans. We want to do our best and the technology will help us get there. But there's some really key learnings and opportunities to grow around radical inclusion, which requires some self learning, actually. I think many folks believe that when we're talking about diversity or cultural competency, which I kind of try not to use as much, but women were thinking so outwardly and thinking about the other versus thinking about how your own unconscious bias is keeping you from building or contributing or doing something meaningful with the skills, like your hard tech skills to help humanity.

AMBER: Yeah. I don't know if you have like written anything about that, but I would love to anchor talk or read more about the stuff that you're doing.

CHANTE: Yeah, we're in the middle of writing a white paper and we have a podcast and it's in its infancy really. And so season two, like our fully produced season, we'll really get into all of this but definitely in and not to put a plug in, but I mean I could continue that particular thread of the conversation over on that particular podcast if you'd like. So I'm more than happy to follow up with you afterwards with that.

AMBER: Okay. Yeah, that sounds great.

CORALINE: Chante, maybe you should also think about speaking at self.conf next year.

CHANTE: Yeah, that would be awesome. I would love to. It's my jam, for sure.

CORALINE: Yeah.

CHANTE: Because I think the thing that struck me was just that, and I do share this in my work, that I prefer to take away the middle people. I don't think that we need to rely on somebody else to give us the information or the knowledge. In this day and age, we have the technology that allows us to learn so intensely with the introduction of like AR and VR as immersive tech and interactive tech. I think that the learning will just be on a bound and I'm really looking forward to that. But I am just a big proponent of trying to remind everybody that you don't need as many middle men or women trying to mitigate or broker what you're learning and what you need to be a better human, and whatever I can do to kind of support that, I'd do.

AMBER: Absolutely. I love that. I love that whole idea. And what it sounds like to me is, correct me if I'm wrong, it sounds like finding ways to empower everyone to further their own learning. [Crosstalk] barriers that they have around these big scary concepts. Even learning one thing about something is better than just being too afraid to even learn anything.

CHANTE: Exactly. Because I've been a headhunter. And so some of the clients that I've worked have said they're looking for folks who have an MBA. They're looking for folks who attend a certain kind of a conference because that would demonstrate that they're taking things into their own hands. But I try to remind them of like, why don't you look for people who are self learners because those folks take matters into their own hands and they don't stop. They're lifelong learners. And that to me is a skill that is both technical and soft. It should be at the top of our list if it's not already.

AMBER: Yes. I could not agree more.

CHANTE: Yeah. So I'm curious. I'm just thinking about everyone who is like me who is new to the self.conference community, this one particularly and who are catching up. So maybe, Amber, would you be able to tell us just from, I know you're the organizer, so you might be a little biased, but what's been the most moving session that you've seen either this most recent year or I guess the entire time you've been doing this. Is there one or two that come to mind?

AMBER: That's actually a really interesting question. I ran this conference by myself for awhile and then previously with only one other person. And so usually I don't get to talk. i Don't see any talk. However, this year for the first time, I actually did get to sit and watch a couple of them. So, don't take it from me which one's the best one because I only got to see like five, I think the whole time. And I heard really wonderful things about all of them. But I think the one, this is totally personal too, but the one that really got me the most was Coding Out the Clink. A speaker from a program that I used to volunteer for that went into Marion Correctional Institute in Ohio and taught Java programming skills to prisoners. And that was a really amazing program. And it was amazing to see Ahmed Jalloh's name come out of that program and tell some of the stories from when they kind of shut that program down from in there, the things that they did, like they whiteboard, since they couldn't use computers, they whiteboard program for like a year or something like that. It's just very impressive. And then the things that he was doing, trying to build a life in programming, coming out of prison and help other people do the same thing. It's just heartwarming and amazing.

CHANTE: Oh my gosh, that is so inspiring. I love it. That would be something I would personally be interested in learning more about too, just to find out. I mean, I have people in my family who have been formally incarcerated. And the amount of stress it puts on a family to help that person reintegrate into society is just underestimated. People don't understand how much it can impact you. And then to know that this is something that is being taught in a prison to inmates is huge. One of the things I know that I've seen around the country is that some places, and probably you've heard of this too, is that some places ban this because they think it's dangerous or it puts them at risk and they don't trust the inmates as we move to more of a digital age.

AMBER: That's what happened at Marion Correctional Institute. I guess they got a new warden, I think it was. And the warden just didn't share the same ideas. And so the programs got cut. That's what Ahmed was talking about In his talk at self.conference. But yeah, it's exactly that and it's astounding. If prison is supposed to be rehabilitation, let them learn to rehabilitate.

CHANTE: Right. I mean, who's to say. That's where it's so interesting to me because it's like when you have a change of administration as we see at the top of this country, then your dollars and your focus shift every time. And it's really discouraging and sometimes scary for inmates because they know that at the end of the day, in order to get out, you have to have a plan. You need to be able to say, "I'm going to have this job to earn this much money so that I don't come back here and have the recidivism that everyone was so worried about." And as we move into this next digital age, we have to think about the ways in which we're preparing even inmates for the future. We can't leave them behind because there's already a true digital divide. So I'm hyper aware of that and really try to spend some effort understanding the pain points and understanding that community particularly. I'm curious to know, did he mention in his work that he does, they're considering how people learn, like the future of work and the future of learning are directly correlated. Did he mention anything about that?

AMBER: I don't know that he said that specifically. He talked a lot more about his experience being part of the program and then what happened coming out of it. As you know, if you're a convicted felon, there's not a lot of jobs that you can get. It's a lot harder to have a company take a chance on you, especially in tech. A consultancy may not pick you up because they are consulting for banks or whatever, and they have to do background checks. It's just all this mess and the system's kind of set against somebody coming out of prison from the draw. And so he talked a lot about that experience and that kind of things from that perspective.

CHANTE: Interesting. And did you say he started that program or he was a part of it?

AMBER: He was a part of it, as a prisoner.

CHANTE: Interesting. Okay. Coraline, you attended. Have there been any that you think are worth sharing with the audience that are listening about what struck you as super unique or transformative in your own learning?

CORALINE: I can't really answer that question. I can't single out a talk. The most important thing for me about self.conference, I have a kind of unique approach to conferences and that is, I don't stress about seeing every single talk. I'm mainly there for the community. So while I have seen some amazing talks at self.conference and say I attend more talks at self.conference than I would at RailsConf or RubyConf, the thing that I take away is always the sense of community and the connections that I've made with people. I love talking to the speakers after their talk. Because when you're on stage, you're kind of in presentation mode, you're kind of performing. Self.conference is kind of unique in that people I think feel safer to be their whole selves on stage. What I liked the best is after I see a talk and the talk really gets to me, I want to get to know the speaker. At a conference the size of self.conference, like Amber was saying, maybe 100 or 150 people, you have access. And it's easy to go up to someone whether they've given a talk or not and just introduce yourself and get to know them. And that's my favorite thing about getting out of self.conference is just the people that I connect with that maybe I wouldn't encounter in my daily life. People with very different life experiences, people with very different perspectives. So I don't go to self.conference for the talks. I go for the people.

CHANTE: I think that that's a perfect answer actually. I'm pretty much like you, I don't go to conferences to like, "Oh, I'm going to pack in 10 sessions while I'm there." It's usually like I choose one or two a day that really feel inspiring and then I go mingle and build relationships.

CORALINE: That's what it's all about for me.

AMBER: I'm the same way too. And I think that's actually, as a conference organizer, there's something interesting there or some changes that we can make to conferences in general.

CHANTE: And one of the things I noticed as like an attendee, is that I often -- I know that there's some women who actually are doing something about this or some mom and daughter combo. I can't think of their company name right now. I'll think of it later. And if I do, I'll add it in. But they actually are businesses helping conference attendees engage better because one of the things is you go and you get your badge hopefully, or some name tag of some kind and then you go off to your session. But it's not like people know what you do. You're not a walking talking billboard. But if you're one of the speakers, people will know who you are. Otherwise, it's just like you can kind of blend in with the crowd. But I think there's so much to learn from the people who are just attending because oftentimes if you engage with them, even as the speaker, you've learned so much more. So, if there's any way to think about accessibility and equity in terms of like giving people a voice at conference, that would be something to think about.

AMBER: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting idea to explore for sure.

CORALINE: Amber, it has been delightful having you on the show. And even though I've attended self.conference lots of times, I've learned some stuff from this conversation. I hope other people get excited about it as well. When is it happening next year? Do you have a month picked out yet?

AMBER: Yeah, so we're aiming for early June.

CORALINE: Early June. Awesome. Well, I hope some of our listeners get inspired to attend or maybe even speak. Again, it's been great talking to you. I really appreciate the time you spent with us. I'm also super excited because this is my first time being on the podcast with Chante.

CHANTE: Yay!

CORALINE: Yeah. I'm looking forward to doing a lot more episodes with you.

CHANTE: Ditto.

CORALINE: So, thank you everyone. Reminder that if you want to support Greater Than Code, you can do so via our Patreon: patreon.com/GreaterThanCode. Support is set at any level and get access to our Slack community where our listeners and guests get together to continue the conversation. So if you're inspired, come talk to Amber in the Greater Than Code Slack. Thank you, everybody and we'll see you soon.