Jill Creighton:	On this very first episode of the ASCA Viewpoints podcast, I want to let you know as an audience that we recorded this episode as well as the next week episode both on Freedom of Expression prior to the tragic events in Charlottesville, Virginia. And, I've been reflecting a lot on Charlottesville and our systems of student conduct and how our systems are mirrored off of the United States court systems, which means that they are not free from bias and discrimination as they stand, and we as individuals have so much work to do on our own with regards to social justice. While our jobs may require us to protect the speech of all students on our campuses, we are not required to be complicit in the messages that our students put forward.
	So, as we think about student protest and think about Charlottesville and the messages of white nationalists, white supremacists, and neo-Nazis that are coming forward in our communities, although we can't use our conduct processes and we shouldn't use our conduct processes to address student thought, we do not have to remain silent and we shouldn't remain silent. So, I encourage all of you to find your voice and find your own way to combat hateful and bigoted speech with speech that is both pro-social, with speech that uplifts our black and brown colleagues and our black and brown students and each other. So, I wish you all well uh, as we open the school year, and I hope you enjoy this episode with Lee Bird.
	Welcome to the ASCA Viewpoints podcast, the podcast where we talk about the student conduct profession in higher education. I'm Jill Creighton, your Viewpoints host. Today's episode features Doctor Lee Bird. Dr. Bird is a past president of ASCA as well as a past recipient of the Donald D. Gehring Award and the Parker D. Young within the association. You may know her as a fixture on your student affairs bookshelf as the co-author of The First Amendment on Campus, a handbook for college and university administrators book, which was published by NASBA in 2006. Dr. Bird in her full time role serves at the vice president for student affairs at Oklahoma State University - Stillwater, where she leads numerous functional areas, including the student union, campus life, university counseling, university health services, career services, dining, residential life, and the department of wellness.
	She also serves as an adjunct professor in the OSU student development graduate program. She's been in student affairs for over 36 years and has quite a credentialed list of uh, other areas of service outside of ASCA. She's been the vice president of the Colorado chapter of ATAP, which is the Association of Threat Assessment Professionals, and she has membership in Phi Beta Delta honor society for international scholars, which was in recognition of her work in Chinese higher education. She also serves as the chair of the Oklahoma State University behavioral consultation team and is FEMA CERT and incident command instructor trainer certified. She serves on a number of civic and professional boards, including the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Ed Council on Student Affairs and the Campus Safety and Security Taskforce, Central Oklahoma American Red Cross board, and the Stillwater Medical Center Foundation board. We're thankful for Dr. Bird's time as well as being willing to be the very first cast on the ASCA Viewpoints podcast. So, I hope you enjoy the show.
	Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Lee Bird.
Dr. Lee Bird:	Thank you.
Jill Creighton:	Uh, Lee, I'm really uh, grateful for your time today and excited to talk with you about The First Amendment on Campus book, as well as other free speech things that are going on in higher education, and kinda the, the landscape for that in the US right now.
Dr. Lee Bird:	Sure.
Jill Creighton:	But, I also wanna talk to you about you. Um, so, wherever you wanna start is awesome.
Dr. Lee Bird:	Let's start with First Amendment.
Jill Creighton:	(laughs) All right. Um, well Lee, I've got your book in front of me here. Um, for those of you who haven't had a chance to read it, I, I really encourage you to pick it up. It's entitled The First Amendment on Campus, a Handbook for College and University Administrators, uh, edited and partially authored by Dr. Lee Bird, Mary Beth Mackin, and Saundra K. Schuster.
Dr. Lee Bird:	Right.
Jill Creighton:	What inspired you to begin this project and, and put this information out in this space?
Dr. Lee Bird:	Well, we, I had been doing a program uh, about First Amendment issues based on harassment, um, not Title IX necessarily, but that was certainly a part of it. Um, but, just some of the things we were seeing on campus in the day, which is 10 times uh, we see more of it now. But, w- with seeing kind of things that happened on campus, and uh, had done several presentations at ASJA then. And, in a discussion, invited uh, several folks to come together. In the final analysis, I asked Mary Beth and, to kinda join the writing team. She was uh, a great writer, good thinker, and wonderful colleague for this book project. And, we also wanted to have an attorney with us, and since uh, Saunie had both been a um, assistant attorney general uh, for her state and had also, you know, was uh, a scholar in her own right, invited her in to help kinda, coordinate the writing. Even our friends from FIRE did a chapter about the 50 most influential First Amendment cases. And, we did this book to try to make it a very straightforward, easy read. What do you need to know to protect, help protect students or the institution when we have First Amendment issues pop up?
Jill Creighton:	So, this book was originally published in 2006, so it's just over a decade old. What has changed and what has stayed the same since its original release?
Dr. Lee Bird:	Well, m- n- I think many things have stayed the same. I think you could pick up the book, I know it's still being used in, in higher ed law classes and uh, other classes, so I still think it's that value. I think what's changed, there's been a real focus on social media, and uh, we, we didn't really, you know, we had some issues of internet uh, issues on the internet. But, r- but I think really, social media, the opportunity to capture things in, in real time, post them, um, has been one of the most significant changes in that decade. Uh, the law still remains the same, but it's been interesting to see, you know, the, the notion of protest or seeing things happen or things being, horrible things being posted online that we didn't probably see as much of 10 years ago.
Jill Creighton:	Right. So, in 2006, uh, Facebook was in its infancy. I believe it was maybe only a year or two old. Twitter hadn't been born yet, Instagram hadn't been born yet. So, many of the mediums we see our students using today didn't even exist. Um, so, that's-
Dr. Lee Bird:	Absolutely.
Jill Creighton:	... quite a, an exponential trajectory of the availability of information in that short span.
Dr. Lee Bird:	Right.
Jill Creighton:	So, when you look at, kind of, what you've written and what you present on, what, what do you think are the most important tenants of free speech and the First Amendment on college campuses today?
Dr. Lee Bird:	Well, I still think it is, it is a huge challenge for us, a- and it's, it's bec- uh, and, you know, Kermit Hall still said it best, and he was talking about, Kermit Hall wrote for the uh, First Amendment Center, which is a um, now it's part of the Museum, and it, and it's a center that really does think uh, about the First Amendment right about First Amendment issues. And, he talked about the First Amendment as being uh, um, the most paradoxical of constitutional principles. And, he said, now I'll just quote him, he said, "It's obvious because given the nature of academic inquiry, only an open, robust, and critical environment for speech will support the quest for truth. At the same time, universities are at once communities that must balance the requirements of free speech with issues of civility, respect, and human dignity." And that, uh, that was written in 2002, and I think it's more powerful today than it was in 2002, because it is, you know, students want uh, you know, they, they, controversial speakers on campus, we saw it happen at Berkeley. And so, there, there's a lot of issues around that balance, but the First Amendment is the First Amendment and th- and that has not changed.
	And, we need to honor the First Amendment, because I do think it is so powerful in a free society that we maintain the First Amendment. And, when you really look at, either the book or any book about First Amendment, you'll see a lot of the cases are, are cases about the KKK. Um, people that you really, you know, at least emotionally, wouldn't wanna protect. But, the First Amendment is deep and it protects um, y- you know, the, the stuff that we don't wanna hear, don't wanna see, that's the stuff that really needs the protection. And, in a free and open society, we need to really hear, and I hear, you know, all sides of, of issues instead of just, you know, kind of lopping them off. So, I think that's the, the, the notion of that balancing act, knowing that the First Amendment exists and we should honor the First Amendment, but also address the issues of civility on our campus and, and finding that balance and, and doing that dance.
Jill Creighton:	I think that is a balance that administrators who are enforcing policies are really struggling with, particularly in, in the balance of, when is it free speech and when is it bordering into harassment?
Dr. Lee Bird:	Well, and harassment um, you know, Title VI, Title IX, harassment is very clearly defined, and it's, and you know that language. You've, you probably have memorized most of that language as, as being um, uh, pervasive, persistent. Um, y- y- that, that language has not changed, either for, you know sexual uh, or uh, gender harassment, gender discrimination, Title IX or other issues under, kind of, OCRs guidance. And, it's, I don't know that it's that complicated. What students struggle with, and, and I think many uh, especially young administrators, is that their tolerance for hearing bad things, for hate speech, which is protected-
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Lee Bird:	... for hearing things that are hateful and expecting the university to, you know, throw the bums out, and they don't know, I think most students don't know a great deal about the First Amendment, that's why nationally the, the Feds wanted to start a uh, you know, a day just on the Constitution so students would really understand it. Most students don't, most people don't understand the First Amendment. Most people don't really understand how powerful and, and the need to have a First Amendment uh, the strength of the First Amendment if we don't wanna have a totalitarian society. So, I think we have to protect it, but it's that discomfort that's really driving some of the campuses crazy. And, I do a lot of lectures across the country about this. Not lectures, but actually workshops. Um, Mary Beth and I did. Saunie, Mary Beth, and I have done several, where we go in and talk about, well what can we do? If it is First Amendment protected, what can we do? And, to spend a, a great deal of time, you know, you don't just ignore it. As an institution, we need to address it, and how do we do that? And, looking at programs across the country that are doing a good job of having people talk to each other, even about things that are hateful and, and learn from each other, which is what I think we should be all about.
Jill Creighton:	Can you dig into that a little bit? What can we do?
Dr. Lee Bird:	Well, I'll give you an example. And, now, this is not a, this is not a uh, an ad for this particular group, but we did have an opportunity to bring uh, a group, I'm trying to remember the name, um, bring it to the table on campus, and they did a, they had a documentary talking about these, these difficult conversations. And, we brought that eh, eh, the, a speaker in, did the documentary, and then talked about coming to the table. And, it was actually, the documentary was done during the time that Trump and, you know, just during uh, even before Trump was running, so it's a little bit old. I mean, not that old. It was the last election, not current election. But, but, talking about uh, the election and just how eh, we just can't talk to each other about tough issues. So, bring it to the table was designed to create a um, mechanism for bringing people to the table to talk about tough issues.
	And, some of the things they talked about, and we, what we did on our campus is to, we have what's called an executive leadership group, which is the 20 top powerhouse groups on my campus, international students, uh, domestic mi- uh, minority students, just anybody we, we have that's in, as part of that executive leadership council, invited that group uh, o- you know, current officers and incoming officers, to go to the um, movie. Bought them dinner, had the movie, and then um, actually participate. So, she brings up how do we, you know h- why do you align politically and, and, you know, how do you align politically, and why. So, she starts by, on this little table with two people sitting across from each other, um, moving uh, a little flower, a vase, on one side or the other. So, far right, far left, something else. So, that's where they start to, start that conversation. She talks about uh, you know, one of the other questions was, what shaped your political identity? Who are you? What do you believe? What do your parents? You know?
	So, thinking about how we became the, the, you know, damn democrat that we are or the republican or independent. Where does that come from? And then, talking about um, whether we have changed our mind politically, about any topic. So, somebody that might be far right on something is really kind of, far left on one particular issue, or vice versa. She talks about p- you know, political spectrum and, and talking about how do we, you know, w- what has skewed our view? So, it's really just kind of a fascinating discussion about hard conversations. And, there's similar programs on CNN that are about difficult conve- conversation. Whole books have been written about li- things like critical conversations. How do we begin a dialogue instead of just running away? How do we begin a dialogue about how hurtful and hateful language can be? And, why do we use it? What uh, what's that about? And, I think that is a much better method than um, either violating the First Amendment or ignoring what's going on and, and the institution just holding up its hands and saying we can't do anything about it. Because, neither, neither of those uh, opposites are true.
Jill Creighton:	Let's take a minute and look at this through a private institution lens. So, the, the private institutions are not under the same obligations uh, as a public institution. So, what advice do you have there? What do you suggest for those institutions that are managing similar situations?
Dr. Lee Bird:	Uh, eh, eh, you're right, Jill. That in a, at a private institution, it's eh, the First Amendment only applies, constitutionally applies to um, public institutions. That's, that's the hook. But, most people don't know that if the university talks about the marketplace of ideas or uh, freedom of speech, or other things in their literature, they may be o- obligated contractually-
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Lee Bird:	... to honor the First Amendment. So, it's not uh, again, it's not uh, one or the other. In California, all publics and privates have to protect the constitutional rights of students. So, it's not one way or the other, it's, now it's, it could, we could be uh, held accountable to the First Amendment in different ways.
Jill Creighton:	And, the First Amendment is not just about the ability for students and guest speakers to engage in free speech, it's also one of the core tenants of academic freedom.
Dr. Lee Bird:	Um, it is, academic freedom is not mentioned uh, at all in the First Amendment, but I, I think, and I think maybe perhaps some people are a little bit unclear about that, um, but it is, it is, you know, the, the notion of having the freedom to teach, the freedom to learn were part of the first two tenants of, of the original uh, a- you know, notions of academic freedom by the AAUP. And, the- and they also talk about eh, extramural conversations, so what you say in your community. But, with every right, there are some, some cautions there too. Uh, if you're in a math class and you're talking about sex, it won't be, it's not academic freedom, because it really has no bearing on the class you're supposed to be teaching. If it is a gratuitous um, violence or gratuitous, you know, sexual language or swearing, or whatever else, um, that's not, I mean that's, that's addressed in the AAUP. So again, not a, not a black and, and white or uh, eh, yes or no kind of thing, but it's not part of the First Amendment. But, it is often considered, you know, with, as, as a freedom of speech protection, but it's not in the, in the uh, First Amendment.
Jill Creighton:	Fair enough. Um, I think one, one of the things that we're kinda working through as campuses right now, in addition to kinda, those hate speech things that you were mentioning, is uh, a resurgence, in a, in a positive way, of student activism, student engagement, and student protest. And, I think one of the things that conduct officers and other higher ed administrators can struggle with is, you know, this idea of when can my students exercise that right? Where should they be able to do that? One of the things that I, that I have landed on a lot is this whole idea of time, place, and manner. Can you talk a little bit about time, place, and manner when it comes to uh, free speech and protest?
Dr. Lee Bird:	Sure. But, time, place, and manner is part of a bigger discussion which is covered in the book. Um, kind of an important but um, (laughs) some people find it really boring.
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	Um-
Jill Creighton:	We're all [crosstalk 00:17:40] higher ed nerds. (laughs) I think [crosstalk 00:17:42]
Dr. Lee Bird:	... There are ner- nerds among us-
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	... that like this stuff. But, it's, it, it's really uh, has to be in a discussion of, of forum analysis, which is, you know, in what uh, in which forum, what forum did uh, did the speech uh, or conduct occur? So, on our campuses, um, we have uh, for a public campus, my, like my, my campus, is, we would have a place on campus so there's just an iconic space. And, it's not just it's owned or controlled by the government, and as a, you know, when we think government, we need to think public university, um, but it's the areas by long tradition or government fiat have been devoted to assembly or debate. Think about that iconic space on your campus, that beautiful green mall has always been used that way. So, that would really be a traditional public forum. And, with that, there are certain, you know, you said time, place, and manner restrictions or time, place, and manner concerns. But, it, actually, the, the bigger picture is, if you're in a traditional public forum or a uh, designated public forum, strict scrutiny applies. And, with strict scrutiny, you have to have a really good reason, a compelling interest is what the law says, which could be safety or interference with the mission, to interrupt or limit speech. So, the type of forum may dictate what rules you can apply. So, just thinking time, place, and manner isn't really enough information to act on.
Jill Creighton:	Sure. So, we've got-
Dr. Lee Bird:	So, conversely, if you have a, a limited public forum or a nonpublic forum-
Jill Creighton:	... Right.
Dr. Lee Bird:	... um, the rules uh, eh are, need to be reasonable and viewpoint neutral. And, a nonpublic forum, things like campus offices, resident's hall rooms, classrooms are not public forums at all. So, different rules apply, and that's, that's, it's really the lack of a forum, nonpublic forum. Um, so, that, it really has no bearing. Students can't protest in a classroom. It's, it's really not permitted. If they do, they can be asked to leave. And, a bigger issue uh, m- m- beyond time, place, and manner is, well, what's freedom of speech and what's uh, civil disobedience? And, that I hear come up quite a bit.
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Lee Bird:	And, if a, if a student is uh, like, in a non- say, nonpublic forum like uh, campus offices, they may tolerate that for certain hours of the day, but when they need to lock up the office and they say, police department or others on campus, say um, "You need to leave at five. If you don't leave at five, you'll be arrested." And, if you're still at, there at five and you get arrested, it is what it is. That's considered civil disobedience.
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Lee Bird:	My father used to get arrested long after-
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	... he retired. He was, he was arrested a number of times because he was a really good protester and, no nuke and, and a variety of, of, and he would be the one that got arrested because he didn't have to protect his uh, employment or anything else. So, he was always the volunteer and it was, you know, very orderly. But, that is civil, civic disobedience. And, I think there's even a place for that as well, but students really need to understand, for me it's not just protesting, but talking. Uh, and, that I think is, is the n- is the thing that we need to do. Don't just protest. Don't burn up somebody's car. Don't, you know, break all the windows of a, you know, uh, another citizens um, livelihood. That's, to me, that is not appropriate. That is not a good response. Why aren't we talking about the issues that affect us? Bringing in, you know, understanding how the systems work, bringing in people, um, having those con- critical conversations about the issues of today, not just protesting and uh, I think it needs to be more than just protests. And, I've done my fair share of protests, Jill. May not surprise you, but-
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	... um, so I think it's, I think it has to be more than just a protest. But, uh, this notion of forum and time, place, and manner, that applies to forum analysis.
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Lee Bird:	It's a little bit complex, but we try to simplify it in the book to make it more understandable.
Jill Creighton:	Now, Lee, I see the book is dedicated to James M. Bird. Is that your father?
Dr. Lee Bird:	It was. He died um, uh, he died in uh, August 6. And, I was actually on the phone to, to Mary Beth when, when sh- when he passed away, and asked my colleagues if I could dedicate it to him as a good little protestor. And, he was always, always politically engaged. He was a great volunteer, but also a great, you know, he wrote letters to the editor, he did a lot of things. So, I asked my colleagues if we could dedicate it to him, because he died in August, the book came out in, in D- finally it was published, came out, we saw it in Dec- on December 6 we saw the first copy of the book. So, somewhere in that time, a couple of months after we had finished the book and submitted it, I asked my colleagues if I could do that, and that was why. Because, he really believed in the First Amendment and, and believed in protest, and believed in conversations and the role of government. And, he was, he was quite the activist.
Jill Creighton:	That's a perfect dedication. And, it sounds like you were inspired by him a lot, in your own activism.
Dr. Lee Bird:	Absolutely.
Jill Creighton:	So, I, I do wanna touch on uh, speech codes, as well. It's been a trendy topic that has come and gone and come and gone in kind of a sign wave over time. Uh, I've also seen-
Dr. Lee Bird:	Sure.
Jill Creighton:	... that, you know, there, one state at least has introduced uh, a bill that kills speech codes. I know that the organization FIRE has a lot of strong opinions on them. Uh, what are your thoughts?
Dr. Lee Bird:	Uh, eh, eh, speech codes are, are not a good thing. They're uh, I've never seen one that's been written that can pass constitutional muster.
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Lee Bird:	So, while we wanna believe we could read it, uh, read Doe v. Michigan, Shippensburg University, uh, Bair v. Shippensburg, Doe v. Michigan. There are many cases where people thought, well, we'll just write a code. Because, you know, sometimes uh, when we have institutional problems, that's what we think. You know? Let's, let's just, we've got a problem, let's go write, write a policy. Um, but, writing a policy that will pass constitutional scrutiny is uh, nearly impossible. And, uh, uh, and, it is because the um, it takes in. It's either vague, meaning people really can't understand it, or it is uh, unconstitutionally overbroad, meaning it takes in protected speech e- as well as unprotected speech.
	So, we uh, we just have to be really careful about trying to write a code, because it generally doesn't work. Um, eh, FIRE uh, and one of my favorite, favorite things to read about, FIRE took on OCR, if you can imagine. This was in 2003. And, OCR wrote a Dear Colleague letter about it. Uh, and, this was, this is, really speaks to the speech code, that they said, OCR wrote back and said, "Some colleges and universities have interpreted OCR's prohibition of harassment as encompassing all offensive speech regarding sex, disability, race, or other classifications. Harassment, however, to be prohibited by the statutes within OCR jur- jurisdiction must include something beyond the mere expression of ideas, words, symbols, or thought that a person finds offensive." So, they got bullied (laughs) in bullying OCR. They had to write an OCR letter that really clarified that.
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Lee Bird:	Because, people were using harassment policies to, to create de facto speech codes. And, that's very problematic. And, that's what FIRE addresses in their literature um, often.
Jill Creighton:	I would've uh, I was not quite in the profession in 2003, but I am, I'm gonna go back and dig out that Dear Colleague letter. Um, sounds like one of the original Dear (laughs) Colleague letters.
Dr. Lee Bird:	It, it, it is. There, and, that, there's actually a website for that, if you wanna look up old uh, Dear Colleague letters. It's in the book as well. But, um, it is, it was just interesting that, that FIRE went a- and said, "Gosh, people are d- you know, c- your campuses are doing this, and they're doing it in part because you haven't been clear about what's protected and unprotected speech." So, that's why they got, they had to write the letter.
Jill Creighton:	I would've loved to have been on a, a fly on the wall for that academic discourse, that sounds really fascinating. Uh, do you know what the website is, that folks can visit to find that?
Dr. Lee Bird:	Uh, Office of Civil Rights Dear Colleague letters. Um, and, there's, there should be, I, I haven't looked at it in some time, but there is a uh, kind of, a, a compendium of Dear Colleague letters on a wide variety of topics. But, if you put in Dear Colleague letter in free speech, Dear Colleague letter 2- it was July 2003 when the letter was sent out. You'll probably Google it and, and find it.
Jill Creighton:	Excellent. Now Lee, I wanna shift gears a little bit and ask, where can folks, if folks are interested in learning a lot more about this topic, obviously your book is a great resource, but how do you suggest that individuals go about researching and learning more about uh, the interpretation of free speech on college campuses and particularly, kind of, the management of those concerns when they arise on our campuses?
Dr. Lee Bird:	Sure. And, and, Jill, I think, like everything else that our, our colleagues are dealing with, you know, whether it's Title IX related, First Amendment, and many other, so many other issues, is, you know, go to the internet, read a book, read several books, um, but just to educate yourself um, so that you can then educate um, some administrators about, you know, people often think, well let's just write a policy, of course it will work, it'll be, and if you have resources that you've, you've done some work with, Gary Pavela wrote many, many uh, articles about eh, application of First Amendment in the law on policy. And, I think ASCA still has that resource available of the, you know, the, kind of, the compendium of those. And, he addressed this topic and versions of this topic probably uh, w- 20 times. So, I think that's a great resource.
	The book, thank you, I think is a, is a good resource, especially if you are not an attorney and you need, kind of, non- you know, y- y- y- you don't speak legalese but you really wanna understand something about why it matters, I think this, this is a good resource. They can go online and look at things like the firstamendmentcenter- uh, .org, which is a great online resource. And it, and you will see, if you do uh, online resources for First Amendment, Google that, you'll end up with several different websites that can help. Uh, FIRE has free books. I'm not advertising for them. Um, we have a little bit different approach, but we're, we're on the same team in that regard. Eh, so, so, they have, you know, good resources as well. So, there, there are a number ways, a number of ways for s- for our colleagues to stay u- up to speed. And, when in doubt, they may need to consult their attorney for the institution or work through an administrator to do that, because there are some real tough issues.
	The space designation, well, we went through that process years ago. We talk about, you know, whether our, w- w- what spaces do we have on our campus? What do we consider it? How would we know that? What's written down and what's just kind of there? And, a lot of institutions are like that, where, where somebody thinks it is what it is, but we haven't really talked about it or written it up. So, we went through that process on our campus, and we had, you know, attorneys uh, with us in that process and folks like, you know, housing and the student union, which are, those are very complex uh, athletic facilities, academic facilities, and went through that whole discussion. It was incredibly valuable to do that. And, what rules should apply? And, how do we notify students of what rules apply? So, there, there are tons of things that can be done, tons of good resources to help guide our campuses and our colleagues in that process, and if people have questions and wanna visit, they can even call me.
Jill Creighton:	Excellent. Well, let's talk about you a little bit. So, Lee, you know, you've been a past president of ASCA, you have been on the Gehring Academy faculty a large number of times. You know, you've been the distinguished service honoree. You've won several awards through s- through the association. So, can you talk a little bit about your journey up through what was then ASJA to your relationship with the association now, and how that helped shape your career as a current vice president?
Dr. Lee Bird:	I will tell you that nothing, if I look for the single best career booster or, you know, what, what has impacted me most, thinking back 39 and a half years in the profession, I, I, I would say ASJA/ASCA was that thing. Colleagues, dear, dear, dear colleagues. Learning from some of the, the best people across the country. Um, having the opportunity to both teach and learn when you go to a conference. That's pretty rare. Uh, having the opportunity to have, you know, 200 folks that you can pick up the phone and call and say, "Hey, what would you do?" Or, "What's ..." (laughs) "Have you had this problem before? How do you handle it?" So, there are uh, there's just a, a, e- it's been such a part of my life, having had that relationship and that, with, with ASCA and the, and the people. It's all about the people, of course. Um, but, it's been, that's been a huge part of my career.
Jill Creighton:	We have been so grateful to learn from you over the years. I don't know if you mind touching on, I know that uh, for a long time, you and Mary Beth would have a good time inserting, kind of, funny phrases or words into the case law update at the conference every (laughs) year. How did that come to be?
Dr. Lee Bird:	(laughs) [inaudible 00:31:10] I don't know how that actually started, but that has been more fun, and we've, we've tried to keep that going. We're all friends and colleagues.
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Lee Bird:	Scott Lewis and uh, Bill Fischer and Sauny Schuster, and Mary Beth and uh, I would write down, and it started because of a d- the book. It started because (laughs) of the book. Because, we were laughing, and this is as we were, kind of, probably writing the first chapter. Um, Mary Beth kinda looked around and said, "Okay, what word do you think we should embed in the book?"
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	Uh, and, we just started laughing.
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	So, we found a way to get porcupine in there-
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	... which was her pick.
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	All right, so, if you see some prickly issue, it's, it's porcupine, and that's-
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	... that's what started it. That started us on the road, when Mary Beth was still alive, we did it for several years, where before somebody presented, any of these five people presented, all, any of us, you would give them, and the academy is where it got going, and then extended into the um, into the conference, you know, national conference. So, it started at the, it started with the book, then went to the academy. And, at the academy, each of us would, would slide in two or three words that would be hard to fit in. You know? College, too easy.
Jill Creighton:	Sure.
Dr. Lee Bird:	Uh, offensive, too easy. Um, so, you had to find that word that, that might be a little bit more challenging to fit in. And, uh, so, we did it to each other all the time-
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	... and then it went into the national conference. And, it's just kind of, a joke. And, I, and, Sauny's darned, eh, all three of those, everybody is good at it. Um, Scott may be the king.
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	Scott can find a way to, to get in some pretty odd words. So, that's how it started, and it, and it was, it was just kind of, it was a joke, uh, but it's been a, a, you know, we've been amused by it for years. So ...
Jill Creighton:	I think those of us who are kind of, aware of the inside joke are always amused to kind of, hear it and guess-
Dr. Lee Bird:	(laughs)
Jill Creighton:	... what the weird word is for that particular session. But, I think it's so demonstrative of the collegiality and the family that is ASCA. And, I just think it's, you know, it's incredible that you've been able to stick around um, with the association, you know, as you've risen in the ranks through your career. What advice would you give to, you know, mid-level professionals that are looking to rise to director levels and some directors that are looking to rise into those deans and VP types of roles?
Dr. Lee Bird:	Right. It is, I think higher ed is getting tougher, I really do. I think the challenges that we face, funding issues in many states, uh, the students themselves and their perspective on the world, national po- there's a lot of things going on that make higher education a little bit more challenging than it was probably uh, in the 1970s, when I started. But, I think what advice I would give is, we are generally training folks in student affairs to be uh, good generalists, and I think there is a need for folks, especially in student conduct, you know, take a, a higher ed law class. Take a, start reading. Do joint readings and discussions so you really do understand some of the uh, things that you really need to know. And, as I said, that's getting more complex, not less.
	You know, First Amendment has always been around, but it's really bubbling up now more uh, than, than usual. I've been very busy (laughs), a- as well as my other colleagues are very busy because people are asking, "Hey, can you come to campus and do a program on ..." fill in the blank. So, it's, that's been busy. But, Title IX, think about all the changes, Clery Act, Clery reporting. Think of all the things that have occurred that we're trying to respond to. So, as a new professional, start reading and keep it up. Come to the conferences, go to the academy, talk to other people. You know, you think you're all alone or you just don't get something, you're, you, you go to a conference like uh, ASCA and you can find people talking, presenting on those issues that you thought nobody even knew about or cared about.
	That's what makes ASCA really special. That's what makes the academy special, is that you develop specialized knowledge and learning well beyond your masters degree, even a PhD in some cases. It's gonna go w- well beyond what you may have learned in a masters or a doctoral program in student affairs, to be very specific about this line of work, which is so incredibly important on our campuses. So, it really, it's training. It's, it's information, it's training. And, that needs to be lifelong. Kids, students, students are coming out of masters degrees with no, no knowledge of uh, budget. You need to know something about how to do a budget. So, if they really wanna make that next jump, they need to go from generalist to specialist. And, our association has proudly done (laughs) that for over 25 years. So, it's really staying current, um, learning, being open to learning new things, trying new things, and bringing that back to the, to us, to the profession. Um, so, don't, you know, if, if you're a specialist in some area, don't keep it to yourself, write about it. Uh, do presentations at the conference. Work up to the Gehring Academy or, you know, because this is how our association was created and this is how it's been built, and I think it still, you know, people are still the best part of our association.
Jill Creighton:	For sure. I know that, you know, for me personally, I, I think of ASCA as my professional home. I've been a part of it for just over a decade now and I've been able to connect with and be mentored w- by some of the folks who literally have written the books, and I think that's just an opportunity you don't get in larger organizations.
Dr. Lee Bird:	Yeah, and this, and this was my home. I mean, this, uh, I'll tell you that this was uh, ASCA, ASJA was my professional home and really took me out of uh, I'd, I'd not done any presentations. I did my first presentation at a conference. I don't know that I should admit this.
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	Um, at my first ASCA conference. So, I heard ASCA, ASCA, ASJA in the day, um, I heard about the conference and I thought, well I'd like to go. Well, maybe I could talk about this. I actually presented at my first conference, and I was hooked. And, when I went from Pennsylvania to Minnesota, John Blessing, who um, I, I have no idea where he is right now, but John Blessing said, "Oh, you moved to Minnesota, didn't you? You're now state rep."
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	And, that got me in. That sucked me into the vortex. And then, somebody said, "You know, you oughta apply to be a, you know, member at large on the board." I never even thought about this stuff. That wasn't me. And, yet, this organization gave me the confidence and the opportunity to do that, and it made such a difference in my career trajectory, my happiness, my sense of, of uh, you know, kinda, purpose and collegiality with my colleagues. It, it didn't exist without ASCA. It wouldn't have existed without ASCA.
Jill Creighton:	And, we're happy to have you continue in it. Uh, we just-
Dr. Lee Bird:	Well, thank you.
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Dr. Lee Bird:	Yeah.
Jill Creighton:	... we just honored Lee with uh, a lifetime honorary membership at the last conference, so we hope that you'll stick around and continue to participate as long as you want to.
Dr. Lee Bird:	Yeah, I think um, you know, uh, again, it's been such a big part of my life, and I, I will come as, as I can um, but still have an opportunity to, you know, still doing consulting on First Amendment stuff, so, you know, uh, I get to see a whole lot of colleagues that way as well.
Jill Creighton:	And Lee, how can folks get ahold of you if they'd like to get in contact?
Dr. Lee Bird:	Sure. Um, lee- L-E-E, .bird- B-I-R-D, @okstate.edu.
Jill Creighton:	All right. So, you can email Lee. And, if you're interested in getting ahold of the podcast to ask additional questions or just provide feedback, you can reach us at ascapodcast@gmail.com. That's A-S-C-A-P-O-D-C-A-S-T @gmail.com. Or, you can follow us on Twitter @ascapodcast. Thank you so much, Lee, for sharing your viewpoint today.
Dr. Lee Bird:	Thank you, madam president, for having me. I really appreciate it and thank you so much.
Jill Creighton:	Next week on the ASCA Viewpoints podcast, we welcome Will Creeley with the Foundation for Individual Rights and Education, also known as FIRE. We will be continuing our discussion on freedom of expression and hope you'll come back and take a listen. This episode was hosted and produced by Jill Creighton, that's me. Co-produced, edited, and mixed by Colleen Mater. Associate produced by Trevor Stewart. Thanks to New York University's office of student conduct and community standards for allowing us the time and space to create this project. And, special thanks to Craig Jolly for setting up our audio equipment and teaching us how to use it. Special thanks to Dave at Twitter @PodHostDave from the Nothing Important podcast for teaching us how to use (laughs) our audio software. And, thanks to Adam [Fertman 00:39:54] for serving as our podcast guinea pig.