Jill Creighton:	Welcome to the ASCA Viewpoints podcast, the podcast where we talk about the student conduct profession in higher education. I'm Jill Creighton, your Viewpoints host.
	Today's episode features Dr. Joyce Ester. Dr. Ester currently serves as the President of Normandale Community College in Minnesota. Dr. Ester also spent a good part of her career serving as a Student Conduct Officer, so I'm looking forward to this conversation with her as she talks about rising through the ranks of being a mid level student affairs professional to leading not one, but two community colleges. 
	In addition to serving as President of Normandale, she's also served as the President of Kennedy King College, which is one of seven colleges within the City Colleges of Chicago district. And before that, she was an Associate Vice President for Student Services at Bakersfield College in California and Assistant Vice President for Judicial Affairs and Division Planning at California State University, Fresno, and as an Assistant Dean of Students for Judicial Affairs at the University of California in Santa Barbara. 
	She holds her B.A. in Sociology from Northern Illinois University and a Masters Degree and Ph.D. in Education from the University of California, Santa Barbara. 
	Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Joyce Ester. Joyce comes to us as the current serving President of Normandale Community College, which is in the State of Minnesota. So, welcome, Joyce.
Joyce Ester:	Thank you.
Jill Creighton:	And, Joyce, eh, you had a, a kind of a long standing involvement and history with what was then ASJA. Can you tell us a little bit about what you were doing with the Association and kind of what you remember from those years?
Joyce Ester:	Well, you're asking me to go back a little bit (laughs). I was at ASJA for a large part of my professional career. It was my professional conference home, if you will. I think I got involved with ASJA real soon after I started attending my first meeting. Um, I remember very clearly, um, kind of going to my first meeting by myself not knowing anybody and having folks come up to me and talking to me and really making me feel really at home, particularly Karen [Boyd 00:02:18], I remember was probably one of the first people that I spoke to. And then it was her urging for me to get involved. And so, from that point, I got involved, um, on the Conference Committee. Um, I was a member of the Board for a while, but I would probably say a lot of the work and time I spent with being on the Conference Committee for so many years and, um, actually being the Chair of the, um, University ... I'm trying to remember. I'm getting old. I think it's either the 20th or the 25th Anniversary, one of those two.
Jill Creighton:	I think you're, you're [crosstalk 00:02:48] ...
Joyce Ester:	So it's great.
Jill Creighton:	You had the stamp logo. Isn't that correct?
Joyce Ester:	Yes. Yes, the stamp. Yes. (laughs)
Jill Creighton:	Yes, I remember very clearly, actually, your conference year as Chair was my very first conference as an attendee.
Joyce Ester:	Wow. Okay, interesting.
Jill Creighton:	That's kind of where that sticks out for, for my brain anyway. So, way back at the Sheraton. But, Joyce, can you tell us kind of how the Conference Committee external to your actual day job impacted your professional journey?
Joyce Ester:	Ah, well first of all, it gave me a wonderful opportunity to meet with people and colleagues all over the, from all over the country. Because, typically, in our every day jobs, you know, we're working with the people on our campuses and in our community and so there's a certain culture on campuses. There's a certain way that things happen and things are done and by working on a Conference Committee was working on people, working on committees with people from all over the country. It gives you really, um, a good opportunity to learn different working styles, to be able to facilitate through problems a little bit differently than maybe you were used to. Um, I think it, ho-, opened me up to a whole, whole host of people that I probably wouldn't have known and gotten to know otherwise. I would say that probably one of my dearest friends to this day is someone who I was very close to, um, at ASJ and so that's been a really, really fun thing.
	And so, I think that ability to figure out how do you get things done in a very short period of time because, as you know, when you're on these kind of committees and, um, national committees, it's "volunteer work" so you're trying to do all this stuff when you're doing your day job.
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joyce Ester:	And so being able to use your time wisely, uh, whenever we got together to have those meetings and to be able to carve out time for the association while you were doing your day job. And, at some point in there, I was also going back to school. So, not only was that taking up some of my time, it was the kind of going to school piece too. 
	But, yeah, I, it was, it was a really great experience. I, I miss it. I keep saying every now and then I'm going to, I'm going to go back, but my career has taken me in so many different directions. But, yeah, it, it was good.
Jill Creighton:	And Joyce, what was your day job at the time?
Joyce Ester:	Well, again, I was a part of ASJA for a while. I started off as Judicial Affairs Coordinator and then, um, I was Assistant Dean of Students and I'm trying to remember at which point I stopped being active in ASJA. At that point I might have been Associate Vice President, um, at the time, but I know definitely Assistant Dean.
Jill Creighton:	Excellent. I think one of the things that we, we think about a lot as practitioners in the conduct field is that we are very specialized, we are very niche. And I think you're a wonderful example of someone who harnessed her conduct experience to kind of move up and then out. And now, you know, as a, as a current sitting President of an institution, I think you give a lot of us hope, uh, that one day we could, in fact, move up and out. 
	What advice would you give to someone or what did you do to help you kind of identify those transferrable skills and kind of create and facilitate that skillset to move?
Joyce Ester:	You know, actually when I first got called about this, I started thinking about that and I'm not really sure if it was intentional but, um, it really has benefited me and that's that ability to really listen to people. I think as conduct officers, officers, judicial folks, you know, that's our job. It's to listen to people, to be able to dissect information, be able to make some decisions based on, sometimes, limited facts. Sometimes, you know, desperate facts or, um, different pieces of information. And that definitely has served me well as a President, the ability to kind of do my own kind of investigation and not being able or not, um, necessarily relying on, um, just what someone is saying to me. And so that's really served me well. 
	I think the other thing that's allowed, that's been really helpful for my time as a Conduct Officer was the ability to understand where people come from. I'll be honest, I'll talk to some of my colleagues and if there's an employee, a student, a faculty member who's upset about something or who has a very difference of opinion, it doesn't really wrangle me so much because as, in most Conduct Officers can attest, you know, we've all had those times when you have a very upset student, um, in your office. Or when you're concerned about safety and whatnot. And so, I think it's give me a really, uh, thicker skin than I probably would have had otherwise. And also the ability to understand, and particularly near the latter part of my career, started doing a lot of work on our, on the campuses where I was with restorative justice. And I think that background has also been really helpful for me as a President because, again, the opportunity to get everyone around the table to have a conversation so that we can come to, hopefully, a common solution and I don't, I don't think had it, had it not been ... Well, I do think had it not been for kind of my time in conduct, doing work with restorative justice, I don't know if I would have come to this space or at least as quickly. And so that's been very, very helpful to me.
	I, recently we had a situation where there were some students really upset about something, um, and they came to the President's office and they were, you know, really upset, which was fine. And, uh, when they left, my staff's like, "Are you okay?" And I was like, "Yeah, I'm fine". You know? Um, and maybe it's just because, again, as a conduct officer I was used to that. Not to say that it's right, you know, but it is kind of what would happen sometimes. And so, it doesn't mean I'm, I'm perfect at it but I think that it has helped me see things a little bit differently than maybe I would have if I had come from another part of Student Affairs or higher education.
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative). And, and now that you're kind of sitting in this, you know, presidential role, you're the highest executive officer for your current institution, how do you contextualize student conduct, uh, with all of the other things that you're managing, ranging from academics to facilities, to development, to Student Affairs and then this ultimately being a tiny niche inside Student Affairs. How does that kind of fit into the overall fabric of how you lead an institution?
Joyce Ester:	You know I, I don't know if it's fortunate or if it's just the way we're sit-, situated. I don't really get involved in conduct areas because, of course, we have, um, our Dean that handles the conduct. And then it goes up through our Vice President of Student Affairs. And so the Vice President has been delegated with that kind of final authority if you will. And I've been on my insti-, at this institution for three years and there's not actually been a conduct case that I've specifically gotten involved in. 
	I would say where I get involved and where my experience in conduct comes into play is when I hear about things that are happening on campus or when I see things, I can see the writing on the wall about how something could jump off, or something could be misinterpreted, or something could go in a different way. I think that sometimes I have been known to kind of tap the Dean or the VP on the shoulder and say, "You just might want to watch out for that". And I think it's because of my conduct experience that, you know, maybe I can see a little bit of a crystal ball at times. And I think that that's helpful.
	But, really, as President and I'm also at a community college and so I won't overgeneralize but different than, like, a residential campus, ...
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joyce Ester:	... and so we don't have the, kind of the kinds of conduct that, that I had when I was at a residential institution. Um, so maybe if there was more conduct or very, very severe conduct, I might get involved, but not really.
Jill Creighton:	How are, uh, things kind of different from that residential campus experience to what you do see at a community college?
Joyce Ester:	Well, first of all, I think that, you know, when (laughs), when you're a residential, students are on campus and around each other and around you, you know, 24/7. And so there's just more time in which people get to interact with each other, both positive and negative. And so, for the most part, you know, if you have a student who's a commuter student they come in on class and then they, they leave, and the opportunity for them to kind of hang out and possibly engage in things that could rise to the level of conduct is diminished.
	Now, on our campus we, we have a very strong Student Life are and so much happens there and that gives a little bit more rise to possibilities of things happening. But I just think it's just the, the time and, um, also community college students on average tend to be a little bit older student and so some of the, the things that some of our younger students, based on their developmental [inaudible 00:10:58], you, maybe they're, they're, they've gotten past that. So some of our students, some of the reasons why they're here is that they kind of got that youthful wild oats, if you will, out of their, their system for some of the students before they've come back. And, a lot of our students are working. So I think it just depends, again, that's not all community colleges are all non-residential colleges but at least that's our experience.
Jill Creighton:	And do you have an open enrollment policy at Normandale?
Joyce Ester:	Yes.
Jill Creighton:	So how has that impacted conduct, um, as far as you're aware in terms of either admissions or the types of incidents you're seeing?
Joyce Ester:	You know, again, the kind of conduct that we have, we just really don't have ... When I say a lot, just thinking about when I was a Conduct Officer at a residential campus and, you know, I was having hearings on a regular basis and, you know, I, I, I doubt that we probably have maybe ten formal hearings any, any, in any given semester, if that many. And that's probably an over, a larger number than it needs to be. 
	Um, I think one could argue that, you know, maybe if there's an open, um, admissions process but sometimes that can change. But I think we do a really good job here. It's not perfect but I think we do a really good job socializing an on-boarding folks on to the campus and kind of explaining, particularly for your non-traditional students, the students maybe who hadn't really thought at college, to really explain to them kind of what is expected here. What, you know, what's, what's to be done. 
	We actually have a program here on our campus with some high school students who have had some challenges and one young man basically said, or his teacher actually said that he was always getting in trouble in high school. He was in an alternative high school, getting in trouble, you know, doing things that, you know, youth sometimes will make a person do. And we had him here on our campus in a partnership program. But just being around other people and recognizing that "Oh, I guess you don't loud talk" or "I guess you don't do this. That's really not the standard here". And they've not had any problems from him, like, all year, since he's been here.
	And so I think that that's one of the things that at least here we've been able to do. It's not to say that we're not without our problems but I think when you kind of compare it. We also are a suburban school. Previous to this I was at a college that was more urban and so you have more folks, you know, walking by the campus, coming through it. It was on a major street. Whereas our campus, you pretty much have to be coming here to be in this area. Right? And so the likelihood of people just kind of, you know, hanging out is a little bit diminished.
Jill Creighton:	So, Joyce, in thinking about, you know, how I hear my colleagues interacting with their college presidents, some of us have amazing relationships with our college presidents, some of our college presidents don't want to know, necessarily, the, the nitty-gritty details of what's going on in the conduct world. And some of us work with college presidents who are more enigmas. 
	What advice would you give to conduct officers who are working to forge positive working relationships with the various senior levels of leadership?
Joyce Ester:	Well, I would say that I think it's important for, you know, the m-, the members to really understand what is their goal for that relationship. Is it because I really just want to kind of be in their space and so that they know me? You know, maybe for the ability to move up or something like that. Hmm, that might not go over as well. But if it's really about I, you know, I as the conduct officer understand what's happening on the ground and I also know that by communicating with you I'm actually helping you do your job better. 
	Because for me, I have a motto, you know, I got this actually from when I was a conduct officer from supervisors that I had. I would rather have information that I don't need than to need information I don't have.
Jill Creighton:	Fair enough.
Joyce Ester:	And so, from, and so from me, I say to my team, "As long as I can do it succinctly, you can tell me whatever it is that you want to tell me that you think I need to know. And over time, I will let you know okay you, you can stop with that level" whatever. But, if you frame it with "The reason I'm letting you know this is because ..." and can put it into context for me. And it think that would be really helpful for the member sometimes to talk to the senior leadership to say that "Here's why I would like to share the following things with you", um, and then let them make, make, make a decision whether or not they want to have it. 
	Because sometimes ... And again, like I said, because I came from conduct and so if let's say your president or your VP comes from Academic Affairs or Business Services or even from outside of higher, higher ed all together, they might not really understand that if, if you came to them to say, I don't know, there's a student that, you know, three other faculty have flagged them for having, you know, outbreaks in the classroom. Someone who might not be familiar with what that could look like may say "Okay, well that's, you know, classroom management piece" instead of realizing that while if it's happening in three different classrooms, it's not just about the management of a class. It may be an individual issue or things like that. 
	But I would say, going back to your original question, the biggest thing is to make sure ... Well first of all, ask the senior leadership "What is it that you want to know?" And then, if they say "I don't want to know anything. I don't want anything", maybe have a list of the things that you are comfortable saying, you know, "Here are the kinds of things I'd like to be share-, able to share with you. Is that okay? And if not, is there someone else you want me to share with you?" And I think that that's helpful. 
	I think one of the other things that sometimes, um, and this I'm only speaking for me so I cannot speak for every president.
Jill Creighton:	Right.
Joyce Ester:	Is with everything that's going on in my world, I respond much better when someone can give me the Cliff Notes. Right? Like tell me what it is that you're trying to tell me. Come in and give me a whole bunch of preamble, oftentimes I don't have a lot of time for that. So I actually miss the big meat of what you're trying to tell me because you spent a whole lot of time giving me preamble. 
	So what I usually say to my team is "Tell me your high points first". Okay, I need to tell you about a student that's acting out in class. I need you to tell, tell you about, you know, vandalism over in the Student Center. And I need to tell you about this. Boom! And then may say, "Well, the reason why I'm bringing these to you is because I know we've got state senators coming. I know, blah, blah, blah". That will frame it for you as opposed to "Well, I know we've got senators coming" or "I know this is happening". It's like, okay, I know that too so get to the point (laugh).
Jill Creighton:	It's a little bit like how we, uh, we speak in New York generally.
Joyce Ester:	Yeah. (laughs)
Jill Creighton:	Uh, you pass someone on the sidewalk after you say "Excuse me. I think I might be lost. Can you tell me how I might find ..." everyone's going to ignore you. But if you say, "How do I get to 42nd Street?" We're going to say, "Go that way." So ...
Joyce Ester:	Right. Exactly (laughs). Exactly.
Jill Creighton:	Similar. Uh, well shifting topics just a little bit. One of the things that we've been toying with in ASCA for probably about, I'd say a little under ten year, is the growth of Identity Based Summits to find homes for both our African American males group, they just celebrated their ten year anniversary. And then I work with the Women of Color Group. We're a little bit younger. I think we're, like, in our 7th or 6th year or so and we're led by a, a large number of women of color. And one of the things that we're always talking about in those spaces is how do we use our identity in ways that are positive for interactions with students? But also, how do we navigate some of those identity politic pieces?
	So, I'm wondering if you, you might be able to speak to kind of how you learned to navigate both the things that can help you and things that might be more challenging when it comes to identity and rising in the world of higher ed.
Joyce Ester:	Yeah, um, you know, it's interesting. I think that a lot of campuses are looking at the notion that our faculty and our staff don't reflect our student body.
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joyce Ester:	And so when you read lots of people's strategic plans, a lot of people are talking about that that's what they want to do. So if people truly are trying to do that, then that tells me that this is, you know, a good time for people from under-represented groups. Whether it be gender or whatever so, in a way, that's kind of nice. Right? Because there are people who are saying, "I'm looking for good people and it would be really great if they represent our student body." 
	I think, for me, I've seen that at times. Actually here, um, when I was hired in, there are over 30 presidents. I belong to a state system that has both community colleges and state universities. And the year I was hired there were, um, five of us hired. All of us were women, which was a pretty big deal. And actually, as of this year, in our state of over 30 presidents we are now at 50/50, which is way above the, the average, which is pretty cool.
	And so, of course, coming into an environment like that, it, it, it made sense for people to talk about it because it was pretty obvious. In my case, particularly at this particular campus, I actually got to not necessarily talk about it as much in the sense that I'm the fifth president of my institution. I'm the second female and the second person of color.
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joyce Ester:	Oftentimes, when people move into these spaces, like, they're the first female, the first person of color, first LGBTQ, you know, they're the first whatever it is. I, that wasn't my experience and so I had the ability just to kind of come in and just really kind of talk about the work that I want to do, instead of kind of those identity pieces. 
	But I will tell you that with everything that's going on, one of the things I struggled with, kind of nationally there's all kinds of things that were going on nationally with various executive orders and all kinds of things that were going on. And with a lot of the, the violence and things were happening and it was impacting me personally, as a black woman, in a lot of personal ways. And I remember doing my State of the College Address in, in, uh, August, and I, literally, as I said to my, my, uh, faculty and staff on that day, I said, you know, "There's a Paul Lawrence Dunbar poem called We Wear the Mask and it's now time to take the mask off. Because I think so often as people from underrepresented groups, in order to kind of get through the system, sometimes we wear masks and we kind of try to, you know, downplay certain parts of things that we're thinking or doing or, or ways of being." 
	And I had an open conversation with my team to say, you know, you know, "So much for the mask" right? It was, it was kind of a, um, a little bit of a tongue in cheek but it was really funny because I said to a room full of my employees and I said, "Just in case you guys didn't know, I am a black woman". And, literally, it was really funny there were some people that just kind of looked at me like, "Did she just say that?". You know, it was like, okay. Um, but I think I probably went off on a tangent on your, on your question but I think that ...
Jill Creighton:	Love it.
Joyce Ester:	Um, ...
Jill Creighton:	Bring it on.
Joyce Ester:	... but I think, I think that it, it has, you know, made a, um, an impact on my, my time here. I also ... Even though I, to some people, I look younger than I am and so when, when I came in as President there are some people, particularly in the community, who would look at me and they go, "You're the President?" And I wasn't sure if it was because I was a woman, because I was black or because they thought I was young, or it could have been some combination thereof.
Jill Creighton:	Intersection.
Joyce Ester:	Um, it's, yeah, and so it, um, it was really interesting, you know. And, and matter of fact, there was a person here in our community who would always ... And I'm not, I'm not hung up on titles and, and whatnot, so , you know, people here call me Joyce, and I'm fine with that. But I had a person in a local community would always refer to me as Joyce but would refer to someone on their team as Dr. so-and-so. And Dr. So-and-so was a white male. And I was like, "Okay, if he's going to get his Dr. Then I need mine." (laughs) um, and I made that comment and now, three years later, I can't get the man to call me Joyce. (laughter) To save his life. 
	But, um, yeah, it, it, I think it has a place. Think that it also maybe depends on where you are in the country. Where you, you know, what's your, your, um, um, environment like. I'm actually very fortunate. It happened by happenstance. Um, my entire cabinet is all female.
Jill Creighton:	Hmm. 
Joyce Ester:	And I think that's, you know, I probably have to do a poll to see if that's, um, you now what the percentage of that is. But that's pretty interesting to have an all female cabinet. Um, pretty neat at times.
Jill Creighton:	I really, I really appreciate that and I also really appreciate kind of the authenticity that you're able to bring to that, that question and that conversation. I, I think it's something that higher ed professionals, uh, most of us, you now, as we speak the language of our profession are living our lives through a social justice lens and we're working through the process of social justice every day. But we are also, I think, in a space where we're expected to be perfect at it. Um, and that's, that's a really challenging place.
	So how do you kind of help and promote your staff and your cabinet as they navigate issues of identity and concepts of social justice?
Joyce Ester:	You know, um, one of the things that, and maybe it comes from being in Student Affairs and higher ed, we've, over the last couple of years, have just been trying to engage in some work of our own. You know, we have done [IDI 00:23:35] work for my, my cabinet and my administrators and we've tried to do some of that stuff. 
	We also try to have some common language and so there's a, there was a book that was published here in Minnesota by the Minutes of the Historical Society called A Good Time for the Truth, Racism in Minnesota. And it's a book of a whole bunch of chapters written by people from various identities kind of talking about their experiences here in Minnesota. And that was a really good book for my, um, administrative team. So I went to the level of Deans and we all read that book together and we discussed it. And, um, we have a couple of other books that, that we've been reading. And I think it's about really putting it front and center because I think, like, when you do some of the IDI work, I think sometimes people think they're a lot further along than they are.
Jill Creighton:	Definitely.
Joyce Ester:	and that's not a value judgment, it just, you know, I think we all, you know, want to think really good of ourselves. And so it was an opportunity for us to have some conversations and to say, "Okay, what did this chapter mean to you?" And "Let's have a conversation about that." And so those are some of the things that we've been doing here on our campus. Our campus is 36% students of color but yet my faculty and staff only make up about 12%.
Jill Creighton:	Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Joyce Ester:	Even if, um, we don't, we can't change that number right away, as one of my colleagues says, it's so very important, you know. We often talk about how do we prepare, say, students of color to come into our institution? But we need to flip it and say, "How do we prepare our institution for these underrepresented students to come?" And I think by engaging in these kind of conversations, owning what we don't know and being willing to kind of work through it. So we're trying to do that and it's, it's different, you know, because I'm not originally from Minnesota and we're having to navigate kind of the culture just like you talked about the culture in New York or whatever. There's cultures in all kinds of states and communities. Um, how do you have that kind of conversation? This is not necessarily a place where people necessarily jump at the in your face thing. Minnesota is a place where you kind of have to go about, around the mulberry bush a little bit. And that's fine, you know, now that I know the rules you have to do it. But now I kind of ask my team as we go back to that other conversation, "You've got to meet me half way. You have to stop with some of the mulberry bush and get directly to it, then give me the other stuff later."
Jill Creighton:	Definitely. Can you repeat the name of the book that you mentioned again?
Joyce Ester:	It's called A Good Time for the Truth, Racism in Minnesota. 
Jill Creighton:	I feel like we need to be starting a, a podcast book list. I've spoken with a lot of folks who bring up what they're reading (laughs) and so I've, I appreciate that. I'm going to have the listeners, have that available to them if they want to pick that up and check it out.
Joyce Ester:	Yeah, I mean it's a, a quick read.
Jill Creighton:	And you said it was mostly a collection of, of individual experiences in Minnesota?
Joyce Ester:	Exactly. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jill Creighton:	But geographically, re-, restricted but it's still probably I would imagine largely universal themes.
Joyce Ester:	Oh, absolutely. I mean I think there's, there's a couple things but there's one woman who tells a story about she's originally from Chicago. Talks about what it was like when she went to graduate school in the south and then came back here to Minnesota. So part of her story is talking about what was it like being a black woman go, driving to the south for college and having never been there and what that experience was like. And then coming back, coming to Minnesota from Chicago. So, right? So you have these different ... So, yeah, it, it is some things that you'd have to, you know, be in Minnesota to understand but I think that their feelings, uh, their perceptions, their understanding is, is pretty universal. I think you can understand it pretty, pretty neat. 
	There's, you know, a story of a woman who's in an inter, um, actually an inter, um, international kind of relationship. And then they have a small child and, and how something happened in a store and how she responded to it, which is different than her husband responded to it who was not born in this country. And how they both responded to what she saw as a slight by somebody else. And so she discussed that. Right? So, anyway, that, it, it's an interesting book.
Jill Creighton:	Thank you so much for the recommendation, Joyce. Um, and as we wind down our, our time together, wh-, do you have any stray thoughts or observations or, or words of wisdom that you'd like to share with the Student Conduct Community?
Joyce Ester:	Well, first of all, I think that whenever I read things on, in the news about various things, particularly unrest and things that are happening on various college campuses, you know, one, I'll be honest I think about the presidents of those institutions.
Jill Creighton:	Sure.
Joyce Ester:	And then I, like, immediately think about, you know, my fellow conduct officers. Knowing that often, you know, they're somewhere in the mix of it and having to kind of, to navigate whatever is going on. And so, um, understanding that in these days and times that work becomes harder and harder. And if not harder, much more convoluted. You know? Sometimes I'm sure that folks who would hope that the worst things they have to deal with is, you know, a beer in the residence halls compared to, you know, some kind of really, you know, heinous act, you know, from one person to another. And so, um, I think it's so very important that, that the members learn how to or continue to embrace each other and continue to, um, hold each other up. Like I said, my shout-out to my, one of my best friends, Susan [Tragesher 00:28:38] who, to this day we are still friends. And to this day, I still reach out to her and she to me about, you know, good stuff, bad stuff, you know, happy stuff, sad stuff. And I think that's important and I think we have to be able to do that with one another because, as a Conduct Officer, you know, we have confidentiality and even if we're not talking about specifics, you know, only another Conduct Officer really understands kind of what we're dealing with. Just like sometimes as a president.
	I would also say I think that for anyone who is really interested in kind of "moving up", moving from Conduct or ultimately moving up to be a president or a chancellor, yes it is possible. I think that, I said before, having that experience really helps you to be able to listen to people and that's been very helpful to me. I think that there are times I think even that, that my administrators kind of get a little frustrated because, you know, I kind of want to, you know, restore, do some restorative justice at times. And sometimes they were like, "Just tell us what to do."
Jill Creighton:	(laughs)
Joyce Ester:	(laughs) And I think that, like, my conduct restorative justice base were like, "No, we're going to work this out together." It, it is, it's been, you know, an interesting ride for me. I can't remember ... And I'll also give you this one last thing that ASJA has a, a very special place in my heart.
	Actually, one of the first people that I had really talked to about being a college president was, it was actually the year that Susan Tragesher was the Chair. Dr. Jennetta Cole was her keynote speaker and I had the ability to dr-, pick her up from the airport and kind of be her, her host during that trip. And I got to talk to her and I said, you know, "One day I'd like to be a college president one day" and she gave me a lot of really good advice. We spent a lot of time talking and it was wonderful. And she was a great mentor for me. And then fast forward all these year later when I was, had my first presidency I saw her at a conference and I walked up to her and I said, "I don't know if you remember me but at some point, um, I had talked to you about wanting to be a college president one day" and I kind of pulled back, you know, my jacket and she could see my name tag where it said president. And she looked at me and she says, "Well, hello sister president." And you could have bought me for a quarter. 
	And it was really because of ASJA because I got to meet her on that ride from, you know, the, the, the Tampa Airport back to Clearwater. And met someone who really had a major impact on my life. 
Jill Creighton:	I think those kinds of stories are amazing. I just got tinglies hearing you talk about it in terms of, you know, we make these casual connections at conferences. We have, you know, year long conversations through social media about support and, you know, ultimately we're watching our, our class of colleagues evolve into these amazing professionals and I think that, uh, we continue to feel that professional home that you were talking about, which is just one of the biggest core values, I think, for being a member in general. Um, but Joyce, really appreciate you sharing your thoughts and your experiences with the audience and with the membership. 
	If folks have questions or maybe they're aspiring college presidents as well, how can they reach out to you?
Joyce Ester:	Well, you know, more than welcome to send me an email, um, at [Joyce.ester.edu 00:31:48]. Um, also I'm on Twitter so, um, I'm, I'm a tweeting president, so they are more than welcome to do that. And my Twitter is @DrJoyceEster. 
Jill Creighton:	Excellent. And can you spell that for folks? 
Joyce Ester:	Yeah, it's, of course @drjoyceester. 
Jill Creighton:	Great. And listeners, if you'd like to reach the podcast, ask any follow-up questions or just provide a comment, you can reach us at ascapodcast@gmail.com. That's A-S-C-A-P-O-D-C-A-S-T@gmail.com. Or you can also tweet us at ascapodcast.
	Thank you so much, Joyce, for sharing your viewpoints with us.
Joyce Ester:	You're welcome.
Jill Creighton:	Next week on the ASCA Viewpoints Podcast, we welcome Dr. Michael DeBowes. Dr. DeBowes works with the National Association of Clery Compliance Officers and Professionals or NACOP for short, and we're going to be spending the episode talking about the intersection of the Jeanne Clery Act and Student Conduct. I hope you'll come back and join us.
	This episode was hosted and produced by Jill Creighton, that's me. Co-produced, edited and mixed by Colleen [Maeder 00:33:01]. Associate produced by Trevor Stewart. Special thanks to New York University's Office of Student Conduct and Community Standards for allowing us the time and space to create this project. 







ASCA viewpoints episode 3
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