2024-07-29--t05-40-09pm--guest649658--matt-arbesfeld-1
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Matt: , [00:00:00] Shira, welcome awesome to have you on today.

Shira: Hey Matt, I'm super excited to be here today.

Matt: Awesome. Yeah. Maybe you could share what does Omnichannel mean from you? What does that look like? Um,

Shira: Can mean different things. Not every product has a physical dimension in the form of a store, but definitely has other physical elements, whether if it's how people use their product or how the people interact after their purchase. I think that Omnichannel is just a stimulus consumer experience across all channels.

And there's a slight difference between a multichannel approach Meaning I have a website, I have an app and they're kind of offering the same. I think the magic about a really good omni channel approach is where , those different experiences and different touch points compliment each other and doesn't necessarily duplicate each other.

And that is a fine line when you design an omni channel approach. 

Matt: make sense. I'd love to learn about one of the, you know, if you could give an example of a nominee channel approach

that [00:01:00] you've developed . 

Shira: So, for example, an Omnichannel could be any product that you can use either digitally or physically. So, I'll give an example from my previous role when I was working in the iLottery industry. In the iLottery industry, that is basically how people can play the Powerball, the Mega Million, also those scratch cards and people know it usually is a brick and mortar product, right?

You go to a gas station or any other retail location and you can experience it there. As soon as we introduced iLottery into the world, then it became two different dimensions offering similar products but approaching really different audiences. The magic of Omnichannel is understanding how you can increase the lifetime value of your customer as well as their understanding of your brand and what you can give them as a brand and fit the right channel to the right segment.

So I know that in product management, a lot of us talk about personas. What is a persona and what does it mean? A persona doesn't necessarily just have to be those dry [00:02:00] facts. Oh, they're 35 years old. They are a stay at home mom. You know, those are, those are good things to understand, but a persona is also what are they inclined to do if you introduce them to a new product?

What are the chances that they would be willing to experience more than one channel? So I think that the really interesting strategy to Omnichannel is understanding the different personas, but then also taking it in and understanding as a company, what are your strategic touch points, you want to make sure that you meet the customer in the right moment.

And we can talk about so many different examples of Omnichannel, even the experience of flying, you know, between the, the airline app and the experience at the airport. So really understanding the personas, the strategic touch points, and then also understanding that omni channel is about complementing channels versus duplicating channels and how that impacts the customer. 

Matt: in the lottery example, were you taking existing [00:03:00] customers who were going to the gas station and buying lottery tickets and converting them to online? Or were you going after a new source of customer there?

Shira: That was a really interesting time in my career because it was trying to introduce technology to an industry that was really not into technology. It was decades and decades of how people use that product. In one way in one way only and trying to introduce more ways , to use that product or to engage with that.

I think that for me, the understanding was. Okay, you will have a segment that would be your early adapters, and maybe those early adapters actually never even used the old version of your product. And then from there, you could say that your omni channel approach is fully matured when you were able not to transfer your retail customers to digital, but actually to create some sort of an omni channel experience where they use both.

Once your customer uses both [00:04:00] channels or more than one channel, you will see that their willingness to embrace new products, their lifetime value, and their overall engagement, how hard it is for you as a brand to bring them back is way, way more simple.

Matt: it's amazing. Every brand that you used to see only online now has stores and then every store is now starting to try to make online brands. Do you do you feel like it's harder to go from online to in person or in person to online? Is there one of those that has been more challenging in your career?

Shira: Absolutely. And I would say that a lot of product managers that I met and that I worked with in our career we're very focused on the software. We think product, we think technology, we're focused on the software. Is the user journey the most optimized and do we hit the highest conversion rates? But in the, in reality, almost no product and at your phone or ends on the desktop, right, there is either supply chain or [00:05:00] operation or customer service.

Like there's always the physical dimension after the software. And I think that's where a lot of, usually like product managers in the beginning of their career, put that aside as if it's less important or we will deal with that after. But in reality, is that where the customer gets the most. Benefit, or that's where the customer actually gets the sense of who are you as a company.

So I would say it's definitely harder to go from a digital to physical, because the levels of the, the tiers of complexity become just endless. But in my past, I've been working in omni channel spaces and products for the past 10 years. And I feel like I could never go back. I can never go back to a product that is just software or just physical.

Because seeing how customer interact in an omni channel space is just invaluable. And also, I feel like no matter how great your software is, the personal touch always makes [00:06:00] the real difference.

Matt: Yeah, that's a very good point. Especially in consumer products, very little is pure online these days. There's some widget you're buying or a flight was a great example so I was always surprised how many folks went into pure computer science when we need so many more mechanical engineers and civil engineers.

And so I'm curious, did it, how did you sort of transition to working more in the physical world from software? Was that, did you have background in that or did you just kind of pick it up on the job? 

Shira: So I think, I think it was kind of an evolution of why did I even get into product management in the first place? I was a software engineer. I was hands on coding all day long. And in my personality, I'm more of a run around the hallway kind of person. I can't really sit down and not interact with people.

And that's how I transitioned into product management very early in my career. I think that the need to be out there. Talk to customers, see how they use your product. Sometimes you can just be a fly on the wall and see how people [00:07:00] interact with your product. To me, open just this amazing horizon of ideas, amazing insights, really just priceless interaction , with people who use your product.

And the moment you see that your product is actually making an impact on their life, Is the moment where you're like the happiest as a product manager. Yeah. If our sprint is on time, our velocity is great. If we hit our KPIs, all of those are great achievement, but the actual satisfaction and product management for me.

And, and I think that my team would resonate with that is actually making a positive impact on consumer's life.

Matt: For sure. The moment, You like have worked so hard on something. And then someone says like, wow, this is incredible. You're almost surprised that it actually works. Cause you've been spending so long. You've, you sort of forgot it's such a big change for them. So I agree. That's, that's a magical

Shira: And, and I would say not like you have different types of product managers. I always say a product manager is a suit and every organization [00:08:00] tailors that suit differently. Some people don't really have a physical space, you know, like maybe their, their only channel is between a warehouse that is in China versus the, the actual store that they can walk into and that's where technological tools.

That replay a session or that allow you to gain access to data that gives you that understanding of the experience outside of the software. That's, that's also a valuable thing that we have today.

Matt: Yeah, definitely understanding, understand the customer experience is so important. so you went into product manager, it was your first product manager job in , pure software. And then you moved into more omni channel or what was it like to go more into the physical world?

Shira: Yeah. So my first product management was actually working for a software company that created SAS product for organization. That was the moment where I realized that I can't just create a product from my ideas, my personal understanding of the [00:09:00] space. I have to be out there. And out there in that role, specifically in a B2B industry meant being with my clients, understanding how the clients operate.

So even if it wasn't a retail location, sitting in their offices and seeing how they operate on a day to day. , that's good enough as a start. And that's how I kind of started understanding that there's never just the software, even if the actual deliverable that you're providing is a software, there's never, never just the software.

The software is serving people, the software is serving processes, operations behind the scenes. So there's so many different layers to it. That was more of a B2B world when I then moved into the direct to consumer world that became super interesting because it was also my first product where I was in multiple States in the United States, in multiple areas, regions, cultures, and that edited a multicultural layer on top of just an omni [00:10:00] channel layer, and how can your product be adjustable to different markets, different languages, and different regulations.

And as a product manager, sometimes you think about your persona and the problem you're solving, and then you have to zoom out and understand, is there, Is there, is it just the specifics?

Is it really what I'm hearing or there is a bigger picture?

Matt: So you were helping build a software that was, say, in a gas station that would let folks buy lottery cards and that type of thing? Or what was the physical product in

Shira: So, so the physical product was the existing lottery products, right? , whether if it's a Powerball ticket or a scratch card, which wasn't actually, that was an interesting concept because that side of the business was actually provided by a whole different company with a whole different product manager.

Not even the software that I was working on. The product that I was working on is how can you create a digital solution to offer similar products, similar entertainment to customers. And then how can that digital solution compliment a [00:11:00] product that isn't even yours. And a lot of product managers sometimes face that, that challenge where they're trying to create and add an additive product, a complimentary product to a different product we use.

No product is exclusive, right? But in many, many cases, we actually combine and merge different products that compliment each other. And you might not be really working with the product manager, designing the other product.

So that was my case. I was creating a digital solution for a physical product that wasn't in my hands, and I had to build the strategy around it in a very specific way.

Matt: this sort of physical products a bit more fixed and you have to tailor the digital product to support that. I'm sure it was challenging in some parts.

Shira: yeah, and also if you if you're thinking about how can you create synergy between the two if there is a new product launched at retail, how can you mimic or be complimentary to that on the digital side and vice versa at the end of the day, we're thinking [00:12:00] about what would create the best customer experience and the best lifetime value for our customer.

And if you think about it as two different parallel dimensions, They will never meet. And if they never meet, they just go each as each of them as a singular product with still singular customer and not creating a comprehensive customer experience,

Matt: Yeah, and that makes sense. Finding the places to plug the physical product or vice versa physical. But yeah, the I'm a bit into the sort of home automation set up and it's, it's amazing when you set something up and it just works seamlessly between software and hardware. And so I think, yeah, the most magical experiences are when you combine the two.

Shira: A hundred percent. And that's you know, it's funny you mentioning it because one of the products that I was working on in the last few years was a connected home product. And how do you get to a point where you're up to speed with, with the world and like you have a fully connected home.

And where is the physical dimension, the digital dimension, and the human touch in all of [00:13:00] this?

Matt: Right. you know, You've been running product management teams for many years. Love to talk more about sort of the day to day of what that's like.

And I think one thing I've, I've heard you mention the past is how you encourage your team not to fall in love with the first solution, but to explore and iterate that really resonated with me. Just maybe you could kind of expand on, on that approach.

Shira: a hundred percent. I think that it's It's something we all do, right? We have a great idea and then we're like, so in love with that idea. And we think that it's the best idea and it's really hard to climb off the tree at that point. And I think the beauty about product management, it's not a one man show.

It never is in order to actually create a good product. You have your designer, your engineer, your data analyst, your client, your customer, right? There's so many voices. I think that when, when I'm. Kind of walking through how does a product come to the world with my team and in the past few years that was working at Asurion.

In many cases, it starts [00:14:00] with a, with a kickoff. Now we hear a kickoff and it sounds like this big thing, right? Like, Oh my God, you need to prepare and like arrange lunch and all that. And it doesn't have to be a kickoff could be over coffee. A kickoff could be just a small group of like two, three people bouncing ideas against each other.

And that allows people to poke holes in your love story idea. From the get go before you even wrote , one line of code. And it allows you to kind of ground back to reality as a product manager and say, okay, wait, there is additional voices. That this idea doesn't take into consideration. In my opinion, the best way to get there to that poking hole is with a small group of people that have either interest or expertise in the field that you're trying to solve for.

And then from there, I think that the next step. The next natural stage is to really, really encourage and foster a culture that, that is a test and learn approach. Using prototypes and, and A B [00:15:00] testing is great. And I think that in our current era with AI, it is so easy to do because if you have the right data and the right model, you can get to those conclusions really, really fast, the test and learn.

Sometimes you can get to conclusions within a day. Really depends on your volume and your traffic, but really making sure that you're not jumping into all or nothing, but you're doing those small iterations. And when you do the small iteration, there, there is no room to fall in love with the, with the product because you constantly know that you're going to pivot and I think the third thing in that area, after, after the kickoff and, and doing that test and learn constant test and learn, you're going Is to constantly remind ourselves that perfect is not the answer.

And I think that myself in my early stages, in the early stages of my career, I did that a lot. I was always aiming for perfection. I wanted my boss to see that my solution is the best solution. And sometimes the price that I paid was the time to market [00:16:00] or the happiness of my team. Because if you're so bullheaded and you're like, it has to be perfect, then.

It has the, this, it has some of a trade off in other levels. And for me, I keep reminding my team that even though I really like perfect things, I'm not looking for perfect. And I remind that to my team again and again, and again, every time they introduce a new prototype, a new idea, a new user journey, a new.

Potential add on to our product. Perfect is not the answer and it's not what I'm looking for. And it's not what our customers are looking for.

Matt: Definitely there's tradeoffs for everything. And often the trade off for perfection is you're spending three, four times as long to get there. And then it still may not be perfect to your point. Cause you haven't tested, tested fully.

Shira: Is it ever really perfect? Because the problems are never ending. Once you solve for one thing, there's a new thing that comes up. So before you solve all the way, take one step further and see how it goes.

Matt: one thing I'm curious about for the kickoff, [00:17:00] does the product manager come with a spec or design, or is it more just a, Hey, here's an idea I'm working on sort of what's the, usually the form factor of the, the presentation there.

Shira: Yeah. So I think that there, there's no one like framework that I would say works all the time, because it really depends on the type of, of product you're currently building. It would look very different if you're trying to come up with a new business line or a new product from scratch versus if you're trying to revamp the customer journey of an existing product or trying to change the pricing of an existing product and trying to understand how you do that.

My favorite kind of kickoffs are those kickoffs where you have clear problem and the problem comes from the data. You indicate the data. I love starting kickoffs with Two, three minutes of customer recording, hearing them speak about the topic of the kickoff or the the problem area. Because when you hear them actually talk about it, not [00:18:00] only that, you get ideas kind of popping into your head, you also also have that emotional connection and you really want to solve that problem for them.

I think that really good product managers are the ones that. They're, they're passionate and they're resourceful and they really want to make a difference. Even if it's a smaller product, even if you're in an early stage of your career you can make a difference. So those kickoffs, I like to start with grounding into the actual reality.

Maybe one or two videos of customers looking into the data. If you're trying to solve a problem, looking into the data of the current problem and grounding people in the problem space, and then, you know, Starting with like rainstorm, sticky, sticky notes on a board mapping those sticky notes, you know, where, wherever it makes more sense.

And there's a lot of work for the product manager after the kickoff to digest all of it. So the kickoff is like a festival of ideas and a festival [00:19:00] of awesomeness really, because you bring the right, the right people around the table. But then the PM needs to do that digesting process and the prioritization process and grounded back to the data to see what is just a cool idea versus what is, what could be a meaningful change.

Matt: And I think I love how you mentioned bringing a few customer anecdotes and stories. I think a lot of times PMs feel like they need this sort of statistically significant data, but having 34 people say the same thing that makes logical sense is sometimes the best. Data you can give

Shira: Yeah. And, and again, the, the product, I think there's so many types of product managers and sometimes, and you know, in certain companies, the way they tailor that suit of the role is more oriented towards project management, requirements gathering, but I would say that's the. Old school product manager.

Today's product managers are way more data oriented, bringing, you know, [00:20:00] know their market, they know their customer base, they know their product, and they're thinking strategically really focusing on the results versus the process.

Matt: that makes sense aligning on the problem and sort of high level approach and not the specifics

Shira: Yeah.

Matt: So many of our listeners are chief product officers VP of a product and One thing I wonder is how involved do you get in the kickoff themselves? Are you aligned with the product manager going into the kickoff?

Do you ever see a kickoff where you're kind of disagreeing with the product manager? Or just how do you sort of handle the relationships

with your product 

Shira: I think my team would love that question because they know that I love being part of a kickoffs. And I love being part of the kickoffs, not so I can like control the room, but more that I can hear how we think together as a team. Part of, part of my role as a VP is to build great teams.

And sometimes you understand what you have in the team and the talent you have in the team, but also sometimes you can see, [00:21:00] Oh, I'm actually missing. Specific qualities in my team or specific perspectives in my team or expertise. I love being part of those kickoffs, but the reality and time does not allow to be in every single kickoff.

So I would either connect with my team ahead of time, make sure that they prepare the right materials, such as the data or the videos or the testimony of the, of the customers. And also. Always remind them that the goal of the kickoff is not to come, come out of it with a solve, like prop with a solution for the problem.

It's not, I'm not expecting them to come out of it with a spec or a user story or a functioning prototype. The goal of the kickoff is to make sure that we're on the right track. And then, as I said, there's so much homework after the kickoff. The real work starts after the kickoff. And that's where I also work really closely with my product managers.

I'm trying to learn [00:22:00] from them and from the kickoff where what's the right direction they recommend us going.

Matt: And maybe final area, we'd love to learn about, I have to ask how you're using AI to help develop user experience in the website, or has it made its way into the in store experience at all? Just, you know, what, what do you think of AI and are you seeing value there yet?

Shira: Well, I think we all use AI now our days. I think there's not even a day where I don't use chat GPT anymore. And, and for me personally, I do it for like, you know, household things, planning trips, the, the day to day stuff, but if I'm thinking about it and Professional space and how AI has become so integrated into our product.

AI for me as a VP product is, is a kind of my secret predictor and a trusted advisor. The models of AI are based on tons of data, right? If a company in the size of Asurion with hundreds of millions of customers have so many interactions with [00:23:00] customers where the data is there, you just need the right models to understand how can you leverage that data.

And the reason I'm saying it's a trusted advisor is because based on all those data records, you're actually able to create an edge that is based on your business, right? It's not general knowledge. The, the proprietary data that each and every company has Is what is feeding the AI, not just the general internet knowledge.

So I think that AI is one of the decisions that a sharing made in the beginning was AI is not replacing humans. AI is empowering humans. AI is empowering our product. AI is empowering decisions. And the decisions could be either the decisions that our representatives are making, because Assurian is based on tech care and providing services.

But also how the user journey looks like and how, what, what path do you take? What turn do you take in the customer journey based on [00:24:00] AI? We know. There is no one size fits all. There is no one product that can really, really answer every different problem. And AI is the one that helps you navigate through it.

And sometimes also prioritize what is the next big product you need to work on.

Matt: Oh, interesting. So you're using AI also to, to research and figure out sort of what customer needs might be looking across all the data.

Shira: A hundred percent. The AI is used either when you're looking back at things, but also in the moment when you're actually making real time decisions 

Matt: do you have teams internally? dedicated around AI? Is it each product team sort of has it as a tool at their disposal? How are you sort of looking at using AI there?

Shira: yeah, I think that that is a, probably a question that every. Product manager and every company actually asks ourselves is how do we start? How like AI is such a big word? How do we start with making it part of our offering part of our product? I was just in a AI meetup last week and I heard so many [00:25:00] people talk about that in different perspectives They speak about the right model.

They speak about how do you? Introduce it to your in your engineering team. How do you introduce it to the end user? I think that there is no Real recipe on how to integrate AI, because it really depends on the size of your company, the stage of your company, and what, what are you hoping to get with AI?

As an example, I mentioned Asurion is such a big company with so many customers. So the data is endless, but if you're a new startup that is just starting from scratch, how can you build your AI models knowing you don't have that proprietary data yet, or maybe knowing that the Customer base is not significant enough to make real decisions because we all know AI could be wrong as well.

So you need to really tailor it .

Matt: I've seen both where you have that sort of centralized team and they're working on correctness and hallucinations and all that stuff. [00:26:00] And then other, other teams I've seen kind of more distributed, but yeah, I think we're still figuring out the right way to use all these tools.

Shira: Hey, I'm going to go back to what I said earlier with perfect is not the answer. If you're going to try to create a model that answer everything and everything, it's just not going to be not a, it might be like super, super slow. And that's also not great with AI. But also it might gives you so much unnecessary data that you're taking into consideration to make a simple decision.

Matt: Awesome. Well, super interesting conversation. We covered a lot Omnichannel product management, AI. Thanks so much for the time this year. Great to catch up.

Shira: Yeah, absolutely. I really enjoy the conversation. And remember, perfect is not the answer.