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[00:00:00] Hey, Raul. What's up man? It's good to see you again. It was great seeing you last week at Shop Talk, but now we get to talk a little bit deeper. Yeah. Great to see you. Last week in Las Vegas, I was really happy that we got to catch up. So that place is a wild house. Like I don't think I sat down for a week straight while I was there.

It was a busy conference. That is one of the biggest ones I think we've ever been to. Yeah. But now we kinda get to talk to something that's near and dear to my heart and to yours around analytics and e-commerce analytics. You are director of e-commerce over at Princess Cruise's. You specialize in merchandising and analytics, especially over there, but you've had a long, long career and tackled some of the hairiest e-commerce analytics problems out there.

So maybe before we dive in, how'd you end up where you are and what's the background there? I started early, young, like straight outta college. I started working at the Royal Caribbean Group many years ago, and I was in sales initially, so, you know, [00:01:00] reservations, just doing sales and going to school. As I was going to university, I was working and starting out a cruise, and this was many years ago when cruise really wasn't as popular or as trendy or, you know, as, as impactful as it is today.

So. Back then just doing a lot of sales and then I started realizing it's an incredible vacation product. It's incredible to try and keep penetrating the market and growing this business. So I moved off from sales. I went into marketing. I started doing a lot of traditional marketing first, but then it sort of evolved into digital and e-commerce.

15 years ago I saw digital e-commerce really starting to take hold in the travel sector. So that's something that I wanted to be a part of. And I sort of used my sales marketing creative brain. To apply that into the websites and into the digital platforms that I was working in for rural Caribbean as well as celebrity.

And then I worked there in e-commerce probably the last 10 years, and then I took some time off and then I came back the last two years and have been helping [00:02:00] Princess Cruises grow and transition their website into what are the best in travel. I think people think of travel as an e-commerce kind of vertical, like.

If you're buying plane tickets, I just went from Boston, Las Vegas and then Las Vegas to Boston. Or if you wanna get really complex, it's like. Boston to Atlanta, to Miami, where we actually met, had dinner a little while back up to Boston again. But a cruise is like that to the nth degree, right? Yeah. I mean, airlines and bus rides and things like that.

That's just transportation, probably either point B, right? Right. Where we talk about cruise, you know, we're talking about an experience, a vacation experience, so. Obviously there is the transition from point A to point B, but as you start evaluating cruises and the travel overall, it's about time of year, it's about the destinations in which you want to visit.

It's about what type of ship, what type of state room are you looking for? What type of amenities would you like with your cruise? Based on your cruise, do you want to add air to [00:03:00] that? Do you wanna add transfer? So there's so many different products involved in the complexity of taking a cruise vacation.

It's pretty significant. I've talked to several people in the airline side, not so much the bus side I guess, but airlines and kinda that end of linear transportation. And then talk to you a good bit about the cruise end of it. It all seems like there's a lot more kind of focus on repeatability and driving kind of people to come back.

I mean, we all know, you know, you can get status on the airplanes, but I feel like there's not the same level of people who go on a cruise. It seems like they're going to go on more of them. Yeah. And like there's a big focus on bringing them back in and kind of building that again and again. The hardest part the cruise sector has is trying to reach people that have never taken a cruise before.

Because once we can convince that person to take their first cruise, their loyalty coming back is, I think the stats are like over 70% of the people have an amazing experience while they're cruising with any brand. But specifically, a lot of the brands have different sectors, whether it's the budget type of cruise or would you like more premium, [00:04:00] more luxury, more contemporary.

So there's a lot of different segments. But if we can get that customer to cruise for the first time, the chances of that loyalty member and that person coming back is pretty high. It's a complex e-commerce flow here with where you going, what time of year? What are all the customization things you're going to make, which impact your guys?

Business on what they pick and how much margin you get, and then it's not like they step off the boat at the end and you're done. It's still all the analytics problems go into like how do you track people over time and how do you know how to bring them back and how do you drive repeatability? Yeah, so this is a long tail analytics problem.

That's kinda where I was saying like you've run into some of the more hairy e-commerce problems that I've seen working with e-commerce folks over many years now because. In most kids, like you buy something insured, there's repeatability. In a lot of the e-commerce, there is lifetime value. There's customization, but not to the degree that you guys have across every interaction across such a long period of time.

With that in mind, let's just dive right into it, right? How did you get into analytics and what makes you unique here? Like what do you think you kind of bring? [00:05:00] Yeah. Some of the first jobs that I took on in e-commerce were very merchandise driven, very marketing focused. Mm-hmm. Trying to build a lot of different promotions and things like that on the website.

But early on we had to understand what the customer behavior was happening on the site. Like what was that journey looking like, you know, as customers were visiting. So we needed to build up sort of an analytics team quickly to go hand in hand with the e-commerce group. Sometimes other companies have analytics outside of their e-commerce team or outside of their marketing team.

I feel like those are challenges when that person is not in your sort of area of the business, you know, or not reporting to the same leadership. So there's a lot of obstacles when that happens, but when those analytics team members are within e-commerce and also they're within marketing. Everything is flowing together because you're able to have that cross departmental, cross responsibilities from UX to product, to merchandising, and everyone's working together [00:06:00] using the same department for the data, and then everyone has that consistency all the way across those sectors.

What does best breed e-commerce analytics look like and how do you get there is kinda the thesis of what we wanna go through today. So maybe let's just start from there. Like just team setup even before you start to implement anything. Yeah. Team setup. The analytics team has to be embedded in your digital team or in your marketing.

And then you need specific people in there working with whatever platform you're using, whether it's Google or Adobe or whoever you need. SME. You need experts in those platforms. That are helping build the architecture of the site or the mobile app and tell you exactly how this architecture needs to run throughout the journey of the customer.

And that person can have a dual role as far as being the tag manager. Or you could hire specifically people who all of are doing is working on the site and tagging the analytics. And what I mean by tagging the analytics is that every single migration, every single feature, every single product that you're [00:07:00] delivering on the website or in the app.

Has to have the architecture and the tagging set up before it ever gets anywhere near the delivery to the customer. The analytics team sits within the product team. They sit within our team, but within the e-commerce team. Yeah. Right. And so from there, like as you are developing and pushing out new feature functionality or changing anything, that's part of the build process.

Yeah. The analytics team at the onset of the strategy, the PR planning. UX development, there are analytics people in each of those meetings or each of those setups all the way through to completion. What is the core kind of types of analytics that you have in there that you think is just table stakes?

To do this right, you need the behavioral analytics set up by your analytics of record. Could be Google, it could be Adobe, or it could be one of the smaller companies. But then as you get into the details of the site, you could do platforms that use screen recording, that use different heat maps, that use different journeys that you have to [00:08:00] build different segments.

We talked a little bit about new to Cruise, you can build a segment on new to cruise and track those customers coming in. You know, that have never been to the website before. You could have a loyalty segment. You could have segments for Alaska, segments for Caribbean based on time of year. I mean, there's a whole world on how you can slice up the different journeys, but you definitely need an analytics platform of record.

Then you need recording tools or scanning tools. You probably need tools in today's day and age that come in with the scanning, recording, visual onsets, or heat maps. A lot of those already have AI integrated in there to help you with the reporting you're seeing or give you insights and summarize some of the work that's happening.

So. There's a lot of development in that space right now. I would be remiss if I didn't point out real quick that one of the solutions to that space is what we do, and basically the goal is sit there, we integrate with something like an Adobe and do the session replay. Part of it is we're capturing everything.

We're able to kind of identify those [00:09:00] events practically without needing to tag everything, and then you can query via AI and ask the questions. We do the session recording and the AI agent that watches everything in that deal is, it just kind of tells you when things are important, it can just shoot it to you, but also if you need to query it and ask questions, you can just ask in real language and find out those pieces.

Yeah. Previously humans were doing that, so right. Imagine you had a product that was doing a screen recording, you know, they accepted our cookies, so they allowed us to view what the customer was doing on the side, but then we would have an individual on the team, on optimization lead or something like that, go in, build a segment and start looking at all these videos where.

Now you could use an AI to do a hundred videos, you know, 500 videos at a time and spit up the recommendations. So you said you had that dedicated team. What does that look like now? Is it at some level you're built into the team as you're rolling out new features, making sure everything's tagged correctly, everything's set up, and you're capturing the right data.

Are people in there kind of interpreting the stuff daily or what? What does that look like? Yeah, I mean, they're [00:10:00] interpreting daily. I think when you have a product that's going to market a new feature on the site or a new transition to something better in your site or with your mobile app. On our side, or the experience that I've had is that we don't normally just launch anything.

You can't just flip a switch and just say, okay, here's the old, and we're flipping to the new doesn't necessarily work like that. We have a customer facing like a B2C right. Or a, you know, direct to consumer platform. Right. Our recommendation and what we use a lot is we test everything. So we would set up a throttle, we would set up a, an AB test.

We would measure the old versus the new because we think the new is better with the ideas, the strategy, and the product that we're releasing. But what if the customer doesn't? So most of the time we do win, you know, we have a lot of winners out there. And then progressively as the analytics are showing success based on the KPIs that you set up for that feature, you know, if you reach your goal, then obviously you move forward and you switch over a hundred percent, you know, to the [00:11:00] new.

There are situations where we can deploy new features or new products on the site, and the analytics are not working in our favor, and then we have to go back and start thinking, iterating, and figuring out where's the obstacle, like where's the roadblock? What do we need to fix from a UX perspective, UI performance, maybe the site needs to be faster, needs to be quicker in certain engagements.

All those things. You're looking at it when you are testing and sort of deploying the new product and the new analytics on the site. I guess one thing I'm curious, because I've obviously been involved in the kind of vendor end of a lot of analytics engagements and looking through how people think through it.

It's interesting because a lot of times what I hear from a lot of e-commerce teams. Isn't it? It is like, why you better, why should we look at this and not that? But outside of vendor specific stuff, one of the biggest things we run into is someone basically just going like, I don't even know what we need to be monitoring for necessarily.

Like obviously, you know, conversion rate. There's a couple really straightforward, easy [00:12:00] things that are kinda obvious, but beyond that, people seem to be a little at a loss at times of like. What is the things we really need to be looking at beyond just conversion rate look like and stuff? So I guess, what do you guys look like?

What's the kind of table stakes end of what you're monitoring? It depends where the feature that your audience, the customers would be deploying. Whether that feature is more on the educational side, maybe it's lead generation, or it's commerce. Every one of those is different, but you have to establish what the goal is.

Like what is the goal that we're trying to achieve here, and then measure to that goal. In those situations, it could be as basic as speed and performance. Like I just put in a new feature on this part of the site. Well, what's the load time like? How is it performing in mobile? Are we seeing issues there where we're seeing like X rate?

You know, common things. I mean, these are basics, really. Time spent on the page engagement, how many people are logging in. So a lot of different things could be measured at a very fundamental level. But a lot of people, if [00:13:00] it is focused or if the product is focused on commerce, then obviously you're looking at funnel entry from your search, and then through the funnel entry, you're looking at conversion and you're looking at revenue.

I do think that's where some of the AI stuff comes in. Interesting. Right now, from a product team perspective, there's two ends of AI to be looking at. One is how do you deliver AI stuff to your customers, but the other is how do you just use it with your team to be better, faster, stronger, all that kinda stuff.

Obviously we use Log Rocket on Log Rocket and one of the things I've seen is when we're trying to figure out why something happened or what we need to monitor or that kind of thing. Now with our kind of AI issue finding and alerting, we don't need to instrument, like you said, load time. Are people having some UX issue, all that.

It generally can watch everything and then as it discerns problems. Can surface the reason why. So it kinda simplifies that a bit. Obviously you still wanna feel good about covering what you need to cover. I think that's where the world is going, is kind of making a lot of that stuff simpler for people to get.

So you can just figure out the action part, [00:14:00] not necessarily the like did I instrument every little detail? Correct. Yeah. I mean, anything that you're able to receive from the AI and the tools that you're using, you need to review. You can't just copy and paste and go. Everything the AI spits out has to be reviewed and thoroughly, and sometimes the human will have to check it, you know, to make sure that it's accurate.

I think all of us now in this world are starting to become like prompt experts, not like who can like build the best prompts for each of your platforms. But internally, I think over the last 12 months, specifically with my group, we've been injecting more and more, you know, we're a Microsoft outfit when it comes to like business.

So copilot is like integrated in almost everything that we do from a business perspective in the back of the house. So it has been helping us quite a bit. Yeah, with automation on reporting, on providing insights, providing recommendations, helping us with executive presentations. So. A lot of the back of the house [00:15:00] stuff is working.

We're trying to get to even more automation and more efficiency for our team members. That's currently where we are, sort of like in the back of the house, you know, before we even get to the website and the consumer facing injection of ai. Right. And then just to wrap on analytics and the table stakes for teams.

Kinda talk about like proactively what you want to be doing, but what are kinda like the easy that people maybe skip or that don't realize need to be completed in a certain way, that they're just simpler, somewhat straightforward, that they could be solving? What are the easy kinda things that people are missing here?

Yeah, I mean, your audience, and I know the work that you guys do are very focused on product. So all the product leaders out there, I would just say your product teams have to have the fundamentals of analytics. Like they must understand how data works. On the website or in the app that you're building because you have to understand what the customer behavior is and then whatever you're building in the future, the features, the different sections of the side, like building a blog, you [00:16:00] know, a whole blog section.

Let's say if you wanna build out your blog, it's like everything that your product teams and your product leaders. You have to insert the analytics team right from the onset, like right from the foundation of what the new project will take hold. Don't leave them out because what I've seen a lot, we've had to go through a lot of education and a lot of training for this on previous roles, is that product will move very quickly based on deadlines they might have or deliveries that they must adhere to.

Then one of the things that gets left behind is the analytics build as part of the product. Mm-hmm. So if you can inject your product team members and collaborate early on with the analytics team and bring them along for the ride, the success of that release will be so much higher than trying to bring analytics in at the end and then not having the right requirements or having to change items based on what that.

That analytics, SME said, oh no, but you have to put this tracking here or put this journey there if that individual [00:17:00] was there at the start, you know, a lot of that work could be done prior, before the UX was finalized or any of the developments started taking place. One other thing I've seen is just also understanding the completeness of the flow, because I've seen so many companies that have a tool that goes here to here, and then it goes from like, you know, A to B, and then from C to D.

You kinda miss the B2C step completely, and it's difficult if you don't have the throughput and clarity of your analytics missing that is missing much more than one third of the process, potentially. The lack of visibility. You have a lot that falls down there, that you figure out. Yeah. Usually companies are set up, as we discussed earlier, you have a analytics of record and that's the one that covers the entire site and it covers the entire app.

Basically what that means is every single page. Every single engagement on that website and in that app is being tracked in this analytics of record, right? You can run reports on Google all day long, on different segments, on different areas of the site, and it can tell you [00:18:00] everything. The second item is what we talked about, the heat maps, the screen recording, the engagements of where some bottlenecks could take place like.

Some sort of tool like Log Rocket or other that can identify where these bottlenecks are and then understand that, generate repeated results, and then see those insights and provide recommendations on possibly how to solve it. Now with AI integration, right? And then the third tool you could have is optimization.

You need a testing tool, like you need something to allow you to test different things, different ideas, because you can't just go and like I said earlier, flip a switch on a new idea and think it's gonna work. You wanna try and build something with an application that allows you to test versus your control.

And it could be ab, it could be a dynamic test, it could be multivariate. You need something. So three different platform targeting different areas and different outputs as based on your business needs. We talked about the cruise as a product is [00:19:00] inherently incredibly complex because you just have so many different levers to pull in variables that there's infinite combinations almost, which is why it seems like far past buying plane tickets.

I would never consider talking to a travel agent, but I think. There's still a pretty high propensity for doing that when you're going on a cruise or something like that, because there's just so many different things that can come up, but I think we can all kind of see it's probably going that way of more and more digital.

What does that mean in your role? How does that kinda translate to action and what you guys need to do? Like, I assume it has to be simplification, but how do you simplify something that obtuse and complex? That's been my job for a long time. I mean, I've been flying the flag of simplification for crews, the most amazing things in the world.

The best products in the world are the simplest ones. Like if you ever try to buy a Tesla online, it's like the easiest thing you could ever you could ever think about. You're like, how did these people take a product that was so complex when you went to a dealership, put it online. And make it so simple, we're sort of on the same path.

It's extremely rare for a [00:20:00] customer to visit the website for the first time or for one time and complete a purchase. It takes multiple visits and it takes a lot of marketing behind to get that visit to come, and it depends on the product because cruises that you sell to the Caribbean online are fairly simple because the Caribbean is a main product destination.

It's a very. High visible, like high focused area, and it's pretty simple, straightforward when you book a cruise to the Caribbean versus a cruise to Australia or Europe or South America. That takes a lot of planning and a lot of complexities. So the website has to speak to the customers depending on where they are in their journey and also which products they're looking at and at what time of year.

So those are all the different sort of things that we're looking at to try and market and merchandise and provide the right content to the customer at the right time to hopefully get them to convert on the site or if not on the site, then at least through the call center or through one of our travel partners.

I can tell you this [00:21:00] much. Our business comes through the website, it comes through the call center, and it comes through the travel agent, but a hundred percent of the people that travel with us have been on the website. So no matter what, making that work is vital to everything else working. Maybe it's worth kind of diving into like, because I, I have to assume this is like almost anything else.

There's always gonna be pressure of like, we want to add more choices or more things you can do, and the richness of the experience at some level adds to complexity On top of that, like. You were talking about a product that crosses country boundaries, not just digitally but physically. Humans are crossing international boundaries, which we all know how straightforward and simple that kind of bureaucracy can be.

How do you handle from an analytics perspective kinda maintaining that push for simplicity? When, and not just from analytics, but how does an analytics enable you to kind of speak to solutions that maybe aren't as obvious when you're trying to maintain simplicity, but still build out the richness of the choices here?

Yeah, that's a tough one. So, because all the information, all the products have to be on the site, so I'll just give you an example [00:22:00] of Five Night to the Caribbean from Miami or Fort Lauderdale. Very simple, very straightforward. You're leaving out of a US port. You know you're going into the Caribbean, you're coming back.

No problem going on an Australian vacation or an Asia vacation. You're dealing with airlines. Not only are you booking a cruise, but then you're going into flying into, let's say one port like Singapore. And then departing out of another one like Hong Kong. Let's say the cruise is like open-ended. You might need visas in particular destinations, so highly complex.

We have all the information on the science, so we build templates and we build models where the product can fit into all of those different steps. All of those different journeys, no matter if it's a five night Caribbean or a 21 day Asia cruise. So the template and the product can fit in There is just how much content, how much complexity is in those itineraries and those sort of like, you know, we bring those along, like some of the [00:23:00] funnel, some of the bookings in the funnel.

When it's very simple, you can complete that booking like in seven to eight steps fairly quickly. When it's more complex, it might have a bit more steps because we have to ask more questions. Related to transportation and passports and visas and hotel stays and things like that. Makes sense. And yeah.

'cause you don't want someone ending up halfway through a trip and you realizing they can't get to the next step or something. Visas through international countries is one of the biggest questions that we have sometimes with the call center or questions that we get through the website. Mm-hmm.

Passports, visas, transfers. Like, how do I get from the airport to the port? How do I get back from the port? What type of tourism am I gonna be able to do in Australia? Things like that. Building on top of like the kind of analytics foundation that you guys have. Like how has that enabled you? To test some of these things or to catch things as they rolled out?

Like do you have places where you've seen really good insight, has led to the ability to try things that turned into good outcomes, or you're able to catch things quicker when they were kinda going [00:24:00] south because of our model that we discussed earlier, which is the throttle and the AB testing, we have been able to find areas on the site or new features that were being deployed where things weren't going the way we expected.

So we had to iterate. Either we paused the test or we kept the test running and just iterated sort of on the fly with ux. To start to understand where some of the bottlenecks were. The thing about the site is that the website is not equal for all products because it's easier to book a Caribbean cruise, a Mexico cruise, or California coastal, maybe something to Bermuda.

The easier the product, the better it does on the site. Mm-hmm. The more complex the product. The harder it is. So when we look at our product mix, we focus a lot on the products that are easier to sell online versus the one that might be a little bit more complex that either we have to add some AI agent for assistance, or we recommend maybe talking to somewhat other call center for more information.

We have [00:25:00] all that data, like we know where our sweet spot is or what products that we need to merchandise and sell as much as possible. But we also can't look away if somebody wants to book a 14 night Australia cruise. You're not gonna leave 'em high and dry. No, we're not gonna leave 'em high and dry.

Right. So that brings us to a good point actually though. 'cause like I think it's easy for us sitting in the tech world, and especially where I am, where everything is ai. Everyone wants to know, you know, what's your AI thing from your board? To your customers when you're selling a B2B analytics tool, like digital experience analytics, like we are, everyone's asking about AI and how to you use it and blah, da da da da.

I have to assume that no one's asking Princess like, oh, well I would book this ticket, but like, first, what's your AI roadmap? But at the same time, I know there is places that, that the team is using AI to deliver better experiences. How does that work in here? Like what does that look like when you're not selling something that has to be AI enabled in the same way where AI isn't the buzzword that it's here for the audience.

You have to look at it in your business. You know, are [00:26:00] you providing a service? Are you looking for lead generation? Are you looking for email signups? SMS. Are you trying to use AI for commerce, which is, I think we spoke earlier. It's the hardest one of all. So what you're seeing with a lot of businesses across already is that businesses internally are using AI to help their day-to-day work be more efficient.

That's been happening for several months or over a year already, but it's moving quickly. When you and I went to conference last. The whole conference was about ai. Oh, everything. It was nuts. Every, every single platform, every single vendor there had an ai, something. So to me, and a lot of people in business, it's overwhelming because it's hard to understand which one to choose that's gonna work well for your business.

But. What you have to focus on is, okay. Some of the easiest things you could do is service, right? Like the AI can help you bring down your service calls. If on your website or on your app, you can engage with the customer and answer questions for them that they might have. For us, it's fairly simple [00:27:00] like do I need a Visa to go into Hong Kong?

Something like that. Let's say like those questions that we don't have to generate a call for that when we can address it on the site with an AI agent in a service area. Things like that. So service is low hanging fruit. I think a lot of people should be looking at AI tools to help them with service on their website and on their app.

Another one is really complex products. So if you have those trips that we talked about to Asia or a trip where you're combining a cruise with a land tour together, things that need a lot more education, a lot more content. You could have AI inserted in your journey, like in your education journey, or inserted in your blog.

Blogs have been the foundation of a lot of value to a lot of companies for many years, and we're seeing an idea where you could start injecting some AI guides, some AI assistance in the blog area of the site to continue the education of the product for the customer. And [00:28:00] then the holy grail, which nobody's been able to crack yet, is how AI can help commerce.

Like how can it help conversion, how can it help search? I haven't seen anyone do it properly yet. There's been a lot of testing in search, in product search, or like for us cruise search. I don't think I've seen any testing yet in the funnel with ai. Because that's highly difficult. But yeah, that's sort of like where we are with different models of how these tools could help.

Yeah. And how about like on the analytics side, are you seeing a lot of movement there where it's enabling the team to understand better or, or anything like that? Yeah, yeah. In the analytics side, it's helping a lot. It's helping gather data, it's helping build dashboards, it's helping provide insights and recommendations on the segments or the reporting that you're needing.

A lot of the platforms now, they're really advanced when it comes to analytics and how AI is integrated in there. It's interesting because the dichotomy there of, on our end, we have to explain what we're doing with AI and how it's different and how that's solving a problem for them. For something [00:29:00] like Princess, the end result, they just want a great vacation and they want you to make it as easy as possible for them.

But there's a ton you can be doing either A. They don't care if you say it's AI enabled or not. They just want it to be easy to have a good vacation, but also like a lot of it happens behind the scenes for your team. Where it's, how do you find better insights? How do you find the stuff you need to find quickly or derive the insights that you need so that you can just create that experience for them magically, it just seems easy to buy a cruise, right?

Or like you said, just answer the question on the visa. You don't have to get on the phone and call someone. It's just, you can just ask it. The one thing that fascinates me more than anything else is all these things change in the end. The answer is just make a great experience. Make a great experience, make it simple.

All complicated. We're doing this through a machine. Call centers and travel agents are doing it one-to-one. It's harder when you do it through the website or through the app, but that user journey, that user integration is key. I remember, I mean, you were there too, right? Like years ago the cloud became a huge thing and mobile became a huge thing and all these [00:30:00] things.

I remember I had a professor in college who was really, really stuck on, we needed to market that a product that we were coming up with had Bluetooth because Bluetooth was going to be the hook. And like you look back and you realize in the end like all these kind of technologies come and go, but just no one cares.

They just want their thing where they want it and they wanna be able to do, they wanna book the cruise to order your food, get analytics insights. They don't care about your buzzwords. I feel like at some point AI will be another one of those potentially is just like, it's assumed the people who are building the AI industry.

Are moving so incredibly fast, but the customer is not moving that fast, you know? Which is good. Yeah. A lot of the businesses and a lot of the platforms will be ready. Yeah. When the customer's ready, but the customer's not there yet. We can only move as fast. It sometimes the customer's willing to, and so like it's good they're moving quickly.

I hear just so many people who are burnt out trying to keep up with what's going on in every new philanthropic update and release and all these things, and it seems like the answer is like, focus on what you can make the best possible experience for your customer. Do you have to know the difference between Opus [00:31:00] four five and Opus four six?

Probably not. You're probably Okay. Cool, man. Well, Raul, it was a pleasure to see you again, dude. Hopefully you won't be a stranger. We can keep in touch. Yeah. Thank you so much for the opportunity, Jeff. It was great to catch up. Thank you for coming on. Have a good rest of your day. And yeah, we'll talk soon.

Thank you.