Jennifer Moore Audio
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Matt: [00:00:00] Hey, Jennifer, . Great to have you on today.

Jennifer: Hi, Matt. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Matt: I'm super excited for this conversation. And as I was looking at back on really interesting start to your product management career coming from technical writing, maybe you could share what your journey into product management has been like and how that transition from technical writer happened for you.

Jennifer: Yes, I've been in product for 20 years, so I've always been around product or reported in through product for that time and had a lot of different roles that I've experienced my very first job. Was as a technical writer, I was the 17th employee of a tech startup. It was a series a, and we were we were growing really fast.

So during that time we went from, I was employee 17 in less than two years, we had over 200 people at the company. So I had the opportunity to actually wear a lot of different hats. I think I was a [00:01:00] pure technical writer for all of maybe, Three weeks. And then I was doing what felt like a lot of other things.

So I think just being in a startup initially was a really good opportunity to get exposure to a lot of different things. And then as I moved from that tech startup, I started recognizing that. Technical writing and procedures were just the building blocks of process. So then I was, I thought, okay, well, procedures.

And then I started doing process engineering. Processes are changed and transformed through projects. And so then I moved to projects and then I did programs, portfolios. And so just started layering between the procedures, process, projects, programs, portfolios. And then I got to a point where I thought, this is it.

There's like a ceiling here. And then I thought I needed to really get closer to the customer and to the revenue. I did not want to do sales. or [00:02:00] success. Those just didn't interest me. And then I thought, well, the best opportunity might be product because I'd been in product working with product for that whole time, having all these different titles and jobs.

And so I moved into product management while I was still in financial services. I spent a decade in financial services before moving into software as a service in 2016.

Matt: Awesome. So did you end up moving into product management at that original startup or you, that was a, the sort of career after

the job, after, Yeah, it took me over a decade to get into product management efficiently. So I was at that tech startup for a few years. We were acquired by Raytheon. So that was my first exit and my first big, check. And I was like, wow, this is cool. Like I want to do this again. I spent a decade in financial services.

Jennifer: So I was at American express Wells [00:03:00] Fargo. I was at a regional bank called Zion's band corporation. And during that time at Zion's band corporation, I was a program manager working very directly with the head of the bank card division for the bank. And they. I already saw me very much as doing a lot of product work.

So when they had an opening, they invited me to apply and they wanted me to come join them as a product manager, because so much of what I had been doing as a program portfolio manager was helping them to Manage and create their strategy for product and their investment portfolio, making trade off decisions.

I was doing a lot of the work of a product manager at that time. So then I made the transition officially in about, I think it was 2013, 2014.

Matt: did you explicitly stay in financial services to build your expertise there, or was it part of a strategy to go really deep in an area [00:04:00] or just, that was what you were interested in and passionate about?

Jennifer: Not really. I honestly just went where the jobs were right. Like at that point in my career, I hadn't thought strategically about industry and what I was really good at and what I enjoyed. And my aha moment came when I recognized that our average customer age at the bank was 69. So when you have a customer base that's aging in that way, It's a dying business, right?

So I knew I wanted to get out of traditional banking. It did move fairly slow. I was trying to introduce things like agile and, better just practices overall so that we could work more effectively and faster and deliver customer value and just be more innovative. So I was always responsible for more of those innovative products like at the time, mobile payments.

This is at a time when we were all sitting in conference rooms debating if people were [00:05:00] actually going to use their phone to pay for things at the point of sale, which in 2024 seems ludicrous. Like, of course I just whip out my phone and boom, like I pay for stuff. I don't even bring my wallet into stores anymore.

And at the time in 2013, 2014, it was like, should we be investing in this? Is this even going to be a thing? Okay. So I pushed for implementing Apple pay, Android pay, all the pays. And then I also saw that we needed to really go after the millennial segment. So I started working on initiatives and partnering with FinTech companies to try to drive more product innovation and work faster.

But I also knew at that point that I wanted to be more strategic about my career. And the biggest leap that I needed to make was to go somewhere that was way more agile and just faster moving. So I moved into software as a service and I got more than what I asked for.

Matt: Nice. Yeah. So you saw more of the puck [00:06:00] moving towards software And decided to go, yeah, the reason I ask is a lot of folks who listen to us are maybe interested in a career in product management. And one thing I've heard a few times is if you go deep in an industry, that's a really nice way to transition over.

So I guess that would have happened, by happen chance for you. But then you were more explicit about it later

Jennifer: I will say, and this is just a reflection that I've been having recently. Okay. It's interesting because I see my career as the two halves in terms of industry. I've done financial services for about 10 years, and then these SaaS startup into growth stage, but mostly the startups for the last 10 years.

And In doing that, I haven't necessarily within SAS over the last few years picked an industry. I've been in work management, kind of project management, software productivity is what you could call it broadly, like employee productivity space. I've been in ed tech. [00:07:00] I've been in revenue intelligence.

I've been in telehealth. I've been in FinTech again. So I've done a lot of things. You can put, you can draw a broad umbrella around it for SAS, but it's interesting because when you're trying to get into product management, you do have that conundrum of, you need to have at least two years to even get your foot in the door for a lot of places.

So you're in a bind there, but it's actually true on the other end, as a chief product officer, a lot of the roles. They want deep domain expertise. And so if you haven't chosen one specific place to, anchor on or, a specific industry it's actually challenging because oftentimes the job descriptions for a chief product officer or a VP of product, they'll be very similar.

Own the vision, own the strategy roadmap, present to the board, lead a team, high performing, blah, blah, blah process, right? Operational excellence. [00:08:00] They're all very similar, but then there's always that one line item that says, must have 15 years experience in manufacturing. And it's like, Oh, I've not done anything in that space.

Or I don't know that specific industry. So I think it's, and I'm not saying like, Whoa, is all the CPOs, but I do think there's an interesting parallel there for people trying to break into product management for the first time. And for people like me 20 years in, who are at that. Chief product officer level and want to land somewhere where we feel like we can really make a good impact, but they're also wanting this very deep domain expertise that supposedly you're supposed to also have chosen and made happen, right?

Matt: Yeah, that's, yeah, that's really interesting. And, as the coming from the CEO's perspective, I've never hired a head of product, and that's something I could imagine having been in the same industry for basically my whole career, 10 years, it feels scary to hire that [00:09:00] person and as much as you can de risk their industry experience, you feel a bit better about the risk you're taking.

So,

Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. I don't begrudge CEOs or hiring people like hiring managers that, but it is challenging.

Matt: Makes sense. And I think, I always I think a lot of the people who have been in the industry may also not come with new ideas and a new perspective. So I think you can also learn a lot from people who know the adjacent spaces who can bring a new perspective.

So. Probably something that should be relaxed a bit more and people could also be a bit more open minded on the, on their hiring side as

Jennifer: I'd like that.

Matt: So. I guess recently you've been more in the consulting space and working with other groups to help them. Maybe you could talk about that and what have you noticed from your consulting days and patterns with the people you work with?

Jennifer: Yes. I think for a lot of us. The last four years or so in [00:10:00] tech have been so volatile that it almost feels like we're all just showing up for an interim gig. And then they're like, well, we don't need you anymore. See ya layoffs, et cetera. So because of that, I do feel like this was just a natural move for me, where I have had like most people in tech, I've had that volatility.

And so, it's about probably me just wanting to have a little bit more control and choose who I work with based on taking on contract work and saying, okay, yes, let's do this for a set amount of time, six months, whatever it is. And knowing that there's an actual end date and it's not going to be this big surprise and it's not going to be some traumatic event.

Like we're going through layoffs. Like so appreciate you, but goodbye in, in a matter of minutes. So I think because of that consulting has really been a bright spot for me this year. I've really enjoyed the clients I've been working with, as I mentioned there [00:11:00] at the end, I've worked with FinTech.

Telehealth venture studios. I've worked with the like some SAS companies I've worked in manufacturing ed tech, so just a lot of different variety, which I really love. I love the change and I love the variety of it all. And so consulting for me is really nice because you come in and I like to work really fast and sum, sum up, what's happening and what needs to happen and make changes quickly.

And as a consultant, they expect you to do that. It's not something where they're saying whoa, hold on. What are you doing? They just trust that you have the level of experience, the expertise, the skills, and the people leadership to be able to come in. Really closely embed yourself or, like lead a team as if you're the permanent full time person, and then be able to come in and make changes and help improve everyone's lives and make the customers experience better in a very short amount of time.

So I've really enjoyed it so far. [00:12:00] I'm pretty new at it. I'm only a year in or so. And it's it's proven very. Beneficial, rewarding. I'll say it lucrative, right? Consulting is lucrative. And so I know some people are predicting that, Oh, this is the future. And everyone's just going to have gig work and we're all going to be contractors in the future, right?

No, one's going to be a permanent full time employee. I don't know if that's true necessarily, but I think for people, like me, who've really been around the block, seen the movie, it makes a lot of sense.

Matt: Yeah, I don't like an Uber for every project goes on Uber and then you receive that maybe in the, in a thousand years. But

Jennifer: You just get your phone out and you're like, I need someone in 10 minutes. Go.

Matt: this one question. Yeah, exactly. What are the types of projects you, is it like, you're working in an interim capacity or folks want to get product velocity up and they bring you in, what's it, the nature of types of projects you've worked on with

Jennifer: Yes. So [00:13:00] I have a spectrum at the one end. I do just one day or week long workshops. So all it's more project based where I'm coming in and maybe doing a design sprint, or I'm doing a training on product strategy, or there's like something really specific that a product leader or a CEO or co founder needs help with.

And so I'm brought in for a very specific purpose and for a project. Basically one day to maybe a week long workshop type format. The other piece that I look at here is, or that I've done is fractional or interim leadership. Fractional meaning it's part time. So you're usually 10 to 20 hours a week, and you're providing a level of executive leadership that they're either missing or they need to augment in some way.

So sometimes I'm coming in and I'm working with founders and CEOs who aren't ready to hire their first chief product officer, [00:14:00] but they just need a little bit of support through a heavy growth period or through a big transition, or maybe they just brought on a new VC. And they really don't have any experience working with a venture capital firm presenting to a board.

So I'm getting them ready for that new phase of their company's life cycle. And then on the interim side, I'll come in and I've been also contracted to be full time. I'm in the interim leader. So I act, look, and feel like the permanent person. And the ideal for that is that I then work to hire the permanent person. So I'm getting familiar with the company vision and strategy, the competitive landscape, the market, and looking at talent in a more kind of objective way. And then helping to bring that person on board them, train them and fully transition so that there's a very seamless move from one to the [00:15:00] other.

Cause you think about the lifespan of an executive anyway, generally fairly short, like three to five years average. Even for CEOs. And so, the reality is there's always a lot of volatility there for the people that report to them. I think it's nice that everyone's just set up with that initial understanding and everyone just agrees that this is something where this person is going to be with us for about six to 12 months.

And we all know how this is going to end. And again, it just creates a little bit more predictability. It doesn't have to be this kind of, I keep throwing this out because people are experiencing this, it's like emotional traumatizing transitions. And so for me, I've really enjoyed working with the clients that I've had this year because they're so driven and passionate about the things that they actually need done, where we've defined the outcomes around things like.

I need a product vision strategy. I need clarity on our direction and I need to grow revenue, or I need to put it in product [00:16:00] led growth. I need to start looking at AI machine learning. How do I do that? So we're working on those types of initiatives together very quickly.

Matt: Awesome. It's interesting whenever an executive leaves or something doesn't work out, there's often that period. And so. I am surprised there's not more of a standard of having sort of an interim or folks who know how to plug in and fill a gap for some period. So when you've done those sort of interim product roller fractional, do you come in with a aggressive changes? Do you try to just keep things stable during that period? I guess it probably some depends on the kind of company you're working with and the strategy today. But how do you think about that role?

Jennifer: It's a good question. It really does depend. I think for some things where we have hair on fire, maybe people issues. So for example, if we have someone who needs to be moved into a different role, or there are just really a big backlog of things like [00:17:00] promotions or hiring needs. So on the people side, I tend to move a little bit more aggressively.

And just based on the context that other people are bringing, I'm making an assessment, but also if there's a really big issue that needs to be fixed and changed, because I think one of the things as a leader, regardless of whether you're permanent, temporary, the worst things a leader can do is condone poor behavior slash even performance, right?

You're there condoning that it makes all your top performers look at that and go, why even bother? And you're going to have attrition risk, which then puts everything else at risk. So I focus on the people first, generally, and I move pretty aggressively when it comes to things like process changes and those types of things, I tend to come in and want to just observe.

And I always say, there's the documentation. Sure. Sure. Send me the Miro flows and the, Excel spreadsheets and all the things I'll look at all [00:18:00] the documentation. But really what I want to do is observe. The real way that things get done. And then I'm trying to figure out what are some incremental changes that we can start making pretty quickly that aren't really massive and really, disruptive.

I don't want the work to ever be affected, but it's like, okay, there's always what's working, what's not working and what do we need to do to change that? So I think in general, you walk into a team and they will tell you very quickly, Here's what we need to do differently. And here's what you cannot touch.

And when things are sacred like that, there, I put them in a little box and I'm like, okay, we won't go there yet, but often those are the things that actually do need to be disrupted and changed, right? Because they're long held beliefs. Like this is the way we've always done things. And sometimes those things need to be changed, but there's always, when you're coming in, you need to have that positivity and be a mirror [00:19:00] To reflect the things that are working really well so that you're not changing things that are creating that bit of magic.

That really is the crux of, I think, any companies. competitive advantage, right? We can all steal each other's features. We can all steal each other's processes. We can all do things the exact same, but there's something that comes together with the team, with the people, the way they're doing things and the personalities and dynamics that you have at play.

And that's what makes it really special and magical. And you just don't want to destroy that completely.

Matt: Yeah. And making some big change that upsets people on your first week you don't want to turn over the Apple cart. And the first week, 

Jennifer: Yeah. You definitely want to start by building that trust and confidence. And a lot of times It's about just showing up and being really authentic about this is who I am. This is why I'm here and being passionate about learning about them, making it about your team and understanding where they're coming from before coming in and making a lot of assumptions and making changes. 

Matt: One thing I'm curious about, [00:20:00] and you've had the chance to work across all these industries now. So you have a broad purview on the market as a whole AI, where do you see things going in terms of software and AI and. Is software dying, is it doing okay, is AI gonna, be the next big growth curve?

Just curious your take on where we are as an industry, as a whole.

Jennifer: Yes, I think that we're going to see a lot of pretty massive changes. I don't think there's been in my experience so far in my career, I have not seen this level of change in the last 20, 30 years. And so I think it's going to be so much easier to build the type of software and the ecosystem that a specific company needs.

So I think having more of that talent in house and the ability to build out Very robust platforms that are AI, intelligent and have really good models underneath them that bring in the bespoke data and the data sets that become more and [00:21:00] more of that really critical IP for companies. I think that's more of the future because.

SAS software, let's be honest, a lot of it has gotten crazy expensive. And even though we're in this kind of preliminary or we don't know if we're going to have it into a recession It hasn't necessarily changed the fact that the software that we buy and the, just the overall SAS proliferation, the company's experience.

Like, I'll just give you an example. I was at a company recently, 130 people. We had over a hundred SAS software products.

Matt: Wow. One per person,

Jennifer: Yeah, pretty much. And it's like, okay, we're pretty small. What are we doing? So I think companies are going to get Just better at identifying exact needs and having things more centralized.

And I do think the it department is gaining in traction and clarity as far as their role in putting in the right tech stacks and the fact that they're going to have the ability to build [00:22:00] things more in house than they have. So I think when it comes to buy build partner, I think there might be a lot more build happening because it's just going to be so easy.

So that's my. Prediction. I know it's not earth shattering or anything, but I do think that we all need to be very aware, especially as product people that AI machine learning. It's not one of those things that you should just kind of go, Oh, someone else will figure that out. That's someone else's job.

It's definitely your job.

Matt: for sure. And definitely seeing more and more consolidation as these spaces are more mature and things that co pilot make it even faster to build software and.

So probably those hundred products, 50 of them did the same thing or overlapping functions. They could clean up on the product manager working with AI side.

, do you see new jobs for the product manager in this world of AI? Are they working more with the data? , is it just a new set of tools to learn? How do you see AI influencing the job of the [00:23:00] product manager?

Jennifer: Yes. So first and foremost, I think just overall productivity, right? So leveraging generative AI on a daily basis, whether that's through synthesizing qualitative data and information through your interviews, etc. And then also the way that you analyze the quantitative data. I still think there's going to be those data specialists that are Deeding to create the structures and the kind of backend work that has to happen to create data dictionaries and data sets that makes sense that people can actually leverage.

So I still think there's going to be specialized data teams, but I do think that product managers need to have a better understanding. In a lot of ways, I feel like we need to develop just more understanding and empathy as, as far as our overall knowledge, not necessarily to become experts ourselves or be able to like, Run our own queries or something, right?

Like, I don't think we're headed there. I just think we need to have an understanding of how it works and how [00:24:00] to best work with our counterparts in data. Because the reality is these data teams are growing by the day. And a lot of the resources that might've been put towards a product management function or a design function might actually be going now to data and we have to continue to do more with less.

And that's okay. It just means that we have to focus and we have to actually really be aligned on what our vision and strategies are and how we put together a compelling data driven roadmap. So I think we need to just be very aware of and have a good understanding of the type of work that our data counterparts are doing and the power that they can provide back to us.

But the number one thing we can continue to do is ask the right questions. Because if you're not asking the right questions, you're just wasting everyone's time. And I think too often people don't really know how to do that.

Matt: And learning how to work with those data teams as a product manager. [00:25:00] And it's a little different than, Hey, here's this design and here's the spec for how I want things work. And what I've seen, it's more about here are some inputs and outputs I want. Hey, data team, can you help with this? So there's a new muscle to build there in product.

Cool. Well, yeah, super interesting conversation. We covered a lot of topics. If folks want to work with you in a in your consulting, where can they find you how is the best to get in touch with you?

Jennifer: Yes. So I'm on LinkedIn. You can DM me. Great way to, to connect. I also have a newsletter. I've been a little bit slower on writing recently, but you can subscribe to my newsletter. Always comment there if you'd like to interact. And I also have my Calendly link available on LinkedIn. You can schedule 15, 30 minutes with me.

Anytime I'm happy to connect with anyone who would like to talk shop or, just get to know each other better. I always love making new connections. And of course I love working with CEOs and founders [00:26:00] on their growth strategies and helping them improve their product and their teams.

Matt: Awesome. Thanks so much, Jennifer, really appreciate the conversation today.

Jennifer: Thanks, Matt. Really great to be here. Appreciate it.