Lanie Schenkelberg - VIDEO FEED
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Lanie: We were receiving feedback from the market that the messaging that we had was not landing. I partnered with my a DP of digital. He developed a phenomenal AI agent that essentially would assess messaging and it would grade the work that you had done. We had enthusiastic buy-in from sales. Enthusiastic buy-in from product and then product marketing.

That accelerated the go to market for the messaging. It accelerated sales enablement and it really was able to provide product with feedback from the field Live. Welcome to Launch Pod, the show from Log Rocket, where we sit down with top product and digital leaders. Today we're talking with Laney Schenkelberg, former product manager and VP of Product Marketing at Innovalon In this episode.

We'll discuss the four essential elements of compelling product storytelling, how to spot weak messaging, and what strong positioning really looks like, and how Laney's team led a [00:01:00] storytelling overhaul that contributed to a Novo launch growth. So here's our conversation with Lainey Sheel Berg.

Jeff: All right, Laney, thank you for joining us today. I'm really stoked to have you on. Welcome to the show. Thanks for coming.

Lanie: Thank you so much, chef. I'm really excited to be here and thrilled that you invited me to join you today.

Jeff: Yeah. And now for people who are listening, if you haven't noticed, we're doing something a little different than usual. Typically, this is a show where we interview product leaders to talk about how they've delivered great product, what they've learned over the years, and how others can learn from that.

But one thing I've seen from kind of going and talking to, at this point, hundreds of product leaders across the country is. Go to market and messaging and positioning are intrinsic parts of how you do this successfully. But it's one thing that maybe just more and more people I've talked to feel a little under prepared for.

You Lainey are an expert in the topic, but first of all, before we jump into a background or anything like that, why is messaging and storytelling and positioning so important, like why do product leaders need to know this

Lanie: My dirty little [00:02:00] secret is once upon a time I was a product manager, so, I understand what that life is like. Often product managers. Feel that their product is their baby. And what is so incredibly important about product marketing's role with product in order to make go-to-market successful is to really ensure that the story that we're telling about the product is.

Speaking to the hearts and minds of the buyer. So you're going beyond the exceptional engineering that went into building the product, the phenomenal features, the great functions, and you are really talking about the big win that your customers can achieve through only your product.

Jeff: Right. You can have a great product and it is not, you know, sadly, this is not the movies and it is not. If you build it, they will 

Lanie: Mm-hmm. 

Jeff: at the same time. The best distribution in storytelling in the world is not going to get you past. I. No, you know, a lack of product market fit.

But when those two things come together is when magic happens. So before we jump in though . You have a background in product, you [00:03:00] ended up in product marketing.

How did you cross to the dark side and come over to marketing?

Lanie: So, it's a fun story. I was at a startup. I was at a healthcare technology startup and joined pretty early on, and so had an opportunity to really be a sponge, actually came in doing support, moved over to implementations, then became a product manager because I was in roles that allowed me to get very close to the customer, and I was fascinated by the voice of the customer.

So, I was a product manager for about four years and was working on solutions for the healthcare industry to help. All the players in the healthcare industry focus more on the value of healthcare and the quality of healthcare over the volume of it. And we were faced with really amazing product market fit at the time.

But it was an emerging solution category and so my chief [00:04:00] marketing officer. Came to me and said, Hey, I think we need product marketing because I'm going to all the analysts. They can't tell us what buyers expect. We're going to have to figure this out on our own. And so I want you to come over and create the product marketing function with me.

And I said, sounds great. What's product marketing? And he said, listen, let's focus on the, you know, how we tell the story on messaging. We're going to deeply understand the market landscape, competitive intel, and the voice of the customer so that we can achieve excellent positioning. And once I got into the product marketing function, I really fell in love with it because I felt like I was able to be the translator.

For the product management function and how we tell that story out to the buyer, that's really going to translate the heart of the product into the big win for the customer. So what that achieved was this kind of aha [00:05:00] moment between product management. The buyer. I always felt like there was a difficulty in translation between the two.

And so narrative design and storytelling is one of my tricks to help solve that challenge. I.

Jeff: and this is interesting 'cause product marketing I think is one of the roles that even as someone who has been in marketing for 20 years it tends to be a little misunderstood because a lot of companies is just kind of, they make case studies, they write some content, and that's not what great proc marketing is in this case, like in reality, the importance of positioning and the storytelling behind the product is not, let's go tell a great case study. That can be part of it, but it's, you know, we have a head of proc marketing here named John, who for our last release.

He talked to a hundred plus product people before we launched it to get the right, you know, are we tackling the exact right problem?

Product and product marketing can kind of hold each other accountable to are we building the right thing? Are we being honest with ourselves? And then are we telling it the right way? And I'll be honest, once we started looking at it that [00:06:00] way, we had so much stronger results with everything we kinda put out into the market.

maybe let's, Let's go through this what are those kind of big. Big ladder points we need to hit. I think the first one is, you know, understand the big win, but what does that mean?

Lanie: Exactly. So, um, so your head of product marketing is doing exactly what I read. Recommend that all product marketers do. Go talk to your customers. You cannot do product marketing in a fishbowl. You cannot do product marketing and excellent storytelling by only talking to the people within your organization.

, Because then you're gonna have a really limited view. Oftentimes when you get out there and you talk to the customers, you may find out that the big win that they're achieving is actually different from the one that you thought that they were going to find so valuable. So that's step one. Step one is talk to your customers, and then you have to ask them the right questions too.

I think in the area, particularly of B2B, which I think a lot of product folks are focused on we have fallen victim to this [00:07:00] notion that we have to sound, you know, extremely intellectual and we've gotta use big words and we've gotta have lots of jargon. At the end of the day though, you're still human beings selling to human beings.

And you've got about three seconds to capture somebody's attention before they scroll on by. So you've gotta make sure you're asking the right questions. How would you feel if you did not have our product any longer? And that's a really interesting one because you will get a response back that typically is centered around an empathetic.

Answer. How would you what would you say to your CFO if he walked up to you tomorrow and said he was gonna yank funding for this product and you had five minutes to convince him not to do so? We've uncovered a tremendous amount of insight from our customers that we would not have been able to.

Determined by just having these conversations internally. So that's step one. Go interview your customers, ask the right questions. If [00:08:00] you wanna guide of what kind of questions to ask, I highly recommend Emma Stratton's book, make It Punchy. She gives you a model right in there to use. And I'm gonna talk a little bit about her model today.

But have that interview guide. Go talk to your customers. Customers are generally very happy to talk about. Their pains, their goals, and how they feel about products that they've purchased. And then through doing that, you should be able to understand what is the big win your customers are able to achieve.

The big win is not typically access to analytics or a cool new dashboard. Typically the big win might be something like, what a customer told me not too long ago the big win for a customer I was calling up is that their staff could take time off during the busy season because a product that, that my organization had it uh, you know, increases efficiencies, reduces administrative burden.

[00:09:00] Automates. And with other products, they couldn't allow their staff to take a day off during the busy season, and we had never really thought about it like that. And so, we started kind of peeling back that onion and we wanna understand, okay, great. I. What are the other benefits of the solution?

And we started to glean that from our customers. And now a lot of the messaging that we lead with and the stories that we tell are centering around that big win of you can attract the right talent, you can retain the right talent because they have a better work life balance and they have a better experience than they will at other organizations that don't have the right tech stack in place.

Jeff: It's incredible because it's interesting 'cause what you just talked about, you don't need to build something different. It's literally. Talking about it in a slightly different way, right? You're not saying go back to the product team, go back to engineering and, oh, we actually needed to do this. Not that.

We actually recently ran into a very similar situation just to [00:10:00] illustrate. We launched kind of the next generation of our ai um, layer at Log Rocket, we basically do session replay and analytics. And the big problem has always been. That it's really hard to find the signal in session replay.

So about 18 months ago, we launched. An AI agent that watches the sessions for you and surfaces the really important things you need to watch and like, not just what session, but where do you need to watch it why is it business impactful, all those kinds of things. And the next thing we had done and just recently released was base this idea of it will now integrate across your whole product stack and, you know, watch for releases from your Jira or your linear or something.

And be able to. Tell you proactively, you know, Hey, we saw that you launched something from the ticket we can see, you know, what the goals were and how it's doing.

And here's issues that have, you know, risen because of that. . And we thought a lot of this was, you know, learn about problems quickly. Automated insights and stuff like that, and the number one thing people brought up was, God, I hate spending so much time digging through 12 [00:11:00] different tools, trying to find the entire picture of what's going on.

And that was the thing that they were excited about. Framing it in that sense of, you know, as a product person, you're overwhelmed by data and you have all these sources you have to go to.

Wouldn't it be nice if you didn't have to dig through all that to find the answers? That was what they cared about. 

Lanie: Yeah. And oftentimes product managers are knocking on that door of what is the customer's big win. They're not too far off from it, but you really have to talk to the customer to understand how they would frame it up. Because at the end of the day, you can often be intending to communicate.

About value and about outcomes. But if you are speaking your internal corporate language and not speaking the customer's language, it's not gonna connect with them. So I have, even through customer interviews, I will sometimes verbatim write down exactly how a customer described the big win to me and see can I use that language?

Because that [00:12:00] is what will resonate and you have such little time. To capture attention and make something resonate, particularly if you are you know, leveraging messaging in a lead gen.

Jeff: Yeah, I'll be honest this is one area we found AI to be incredibly powerful too, because we can record these customer conversations, feed a bunch of transcripts in, and it kind of helps us find those very nuanced. Things like you said, and the output is just so real to what they actually said that, you know, it hits a lot better than, you know, we're the leading provider of getting rid of your Franken stack and some kind of BS like that.

So, . Number one, understand the big win and really, you know, intrinsically understand what that is for your customer, not what you think it is but what it really is where do we go from there?

Lanie: So once you understand the big win, then how do you frame that up in a story? So I love to use the hero story format, right? We all read some hero story in school, whether it was Beowulf or something else. So, the format of [00:13:00] the story. Resonates with just about anybody who can encounter it and storytelling can emerge through a pitch deck.

It can emerge through your website. It's also incredibly helpful as a marketer if I need to bring a freelancer in to give them the heroes. Story to help onboard them. So there are lots of different uses. What is key though is positioning the customer as the hero. I know it's tough once, you know, especially for product managers.

Once you have built this amazing product, you feel like your product is the hero. But it's not. . The customer is the hero. The villain is whatever their challenge is or the thorn in their side. But the product is the secret weapon.

or the sidekick, depending on how you wanna frame it up. So you wanna tell a story about how a, the customer was able to confront this, the villain, this big challenge, defeat the villain by utilizing the, you know, secret weapon in their side pocket, [00:14:00] which was your product. And that way you're lifting up the customer, you're showing the customer what is possible with your tool that hopefully is not possible with any other tool or product out in the market.

And then you're showing them what they can achieve. And by framing it up where the customer is the hero, you can leverage that into you know, pitch decks for sales, into sales enablement stories, talk tracks, videos any type of asset you could think of for marketing as well.

Jeff: . And I think that's an important thing to remember is, you know, those are engaging stories for a reason if you can apply that kind of same arc to how someone's gonna feel about using your product, that's a really powerful thing. Before we go on, I do just wanna do one thing real quick, and that is, you know, if you're listening to this and you're enjoying hearing Lainey go through all this and learning how to tell a story about your product better do me a quick favor.

If you're on YouTube subscribe. \ If you're on Apple Podcast or if you're on Spotify. Subscribe to the podcast. It really gives signals to those tools that [00:15:00] this is something you enjoy and helps us get heard by more people and helps get the word out about the show.

If you can, leave a review, please. That all really helps us bring more of this kind of product insight to you. Lainey. I think we're ready to talk about the next, piece here. And that's, you know, understanding the excellent positioning and differentiation, if I'm not mistaken.

Lanie: Yeah, so none of this works unless you have really exceptional positioning. I'll give another book recommendation. If you want to read a really great book about positioning, pick up April Dun Ford's, obviously awesome book on positioning. I think it's the Bible on positioning. It's excellent.

And the way she defines positioning, which I agree with, is it describes how your product is a leader at delivering something that a well-defined set of customers cares a lot about. and, And she has a model for doing that. It really helps to contextualize your product in the market.

But it lays the groundwork to be able to. Design narratives that are going to position the customer as the hero. If you don't have [00:16:00] really well-defined positioning that defines you as a leader and describes what your product does uniquely to deliver that win to customers then the rest of your go-to-market does not matter.

It will not succeed. You're gonna end up just being part of the noise out into the market. So oftentimes when we're going through narrative design, we're creating messaging banks. If we're really struggling, it comes back to do we need to go and take another look at the positioning? Do we take another look at the competitive landscape and what is important to customers and to users and understand is our positioning solid and the way that you should go about.

Validating that is one with your customers. And then also looking at others that are well-informed on the voice of the customer as well, such as key analysts that are in your industry or general analysts like, like Gartner, IDC, Forster, frost and Sullivan. [00:17:00] They're hearing the voice of the customer from a variety of customers.

You may not have access. So you can always utilize that as well. But you wanna validate that your positioning is in good shape. Anything else in your go to market further downstream is not gonna be as successful as it would be otherwise.

Jeff: And this is one of those things that's gonna sound really familiar to product people, because that's something you're doing early on. It's like, what are you building, actually? 

Why are you building it? And how are you different? What is your reason to be as a product and how are you doubling down on the things that have worked?

If you're not. Thinking about this well, before you're going into this process, , you might find yourself a ways off of the promised land if you're not careful. If you don't have the right foundation, good luck to you.

Lanie: Exactly. If every. Anything further downstream seems unnecessarily difficult. Go back to your positioning

Jeff: Yeah, exactly. And now I've always liked this piece because to me this has been one that I think I, I learned over time, but now is really obvious. But you realize that's not true for everyone, is that I. In reality [00:18:00] back to, right? Like the product isn't the hero, it's the sword, or it's the tool, or it's the, maybe, you know, assistant or sidekick.

But what that means in practice and you put this really well, is you gotta focus on value. Not telling people what you are, but what is it gonna mean to them, Tell people how you're gonna make them feel or what's gonna result from this?

Like, where are they gonna be? What does success look like when they're done? You know, using, being lucky enough to use your tool.

Lanie: You want to paint a picture of how life could be better? For your customers. And you'd be surprised once you talk to customers again, they may come up with you know, a big win or how their life has improved. That's different than what you were thinking about internally. But every, everyone wants to be the main character in their story, so positioning them as the hero puts them as that main character.

And then having a deep understanding of exactly what the big win is. What is making their lives better is going to be able to [00:19:00] help you paint a better story around outcomes or value that we all are, striving to get towards. But it can be really difficult if you're not talking to the right folks. 

Jeff: Exactly. You wanna make sure. You are putting it in the perspective of why are they gonna care? And this seems kinda similar to like understand the big win and maybe some of that stuff we talked about at the beginning, but it's a good process to go through, you know, as you're kind of getting closer and kind of finishing up some of the documentation here is, are you staying true to that?

Like, are you staying true to the customer? But. At the same time, are you making them the hero and are you focusing on why they're going to be happy or better off with this? Not why your tool was important. 

Lanie: Exactly. So my three key tips for narrative design, storytelling messaging. One is stay customer obsessed. And that will also help with cross-functional stakeholder alignment. If you end up in a disagreement in a room, you know, with your product partners, your sales partners, your marketing partners, if you come back [00:20:00] to what the customer said that kind of trumps all.

Number two is focusing on the big win your customer can achieve. So the value. And then number three is using the right language. So we have found ourselves, particularly if you work in tech. Bogged down with jargon. And if you go out there and you look at how a lot of tech organizations, products led organizations are messaging for their products, you're gonna see a lot of buzzwords.

You know. Transforms uh, efficiencies for revenue cycle. Well, what does that mean if I, you know, you don't wanna make your audience translate it and try to decipher what you mean. , So the third trick is create a jargon blacklist. And a swap list and understand at the end of the day, you are a human being.

Speaking to human beings, speaking plainly then can become your differentiator. And so we've seen tremendous success with that. And again that's something that Emma Stratton covers in her book make it [00:21:00] punchy the end goal is. Is getting away from all the jargon and you have such a limited amount of time to capture folks' attention.

We found a tremendous amount of success with taking that approach in terms of messaging and the language.

Jeff: Yeah. Now I, I think it's important, you know, it's good to kind of talk through what are the points of this, but I've always found kinda the most helpful thing to be, what does this look like in reality? We're very lucky that, you know, over at a Novalon you did this very recently. And, you know, it was a fairly complex story that you were able to turn into, you know. How do you focus on the customer? How do you make the customer the hero? What is the big win in all these specific details?

, What did that look like in practice and how did you drive a successful outcome from this?

Lanie: So, at Innovalon we have four different business units. We have an enterprise product portfolio of about 75 products and add-ons. So I have a team of 15 product marketers that handle the storytelling messaging and a [00:22:00] variety of other responsibilities. But we had to do this at scale and we had to do it really quickly because we were receiving feedback from the market that the messaging that we had.

Was not landing. Our buyers were having to translate in their head what it meant. We were trying to speak about value, but it was value from the perspective of a novo on not value from the perspective of the customers. So we decided let's stand up new messaging banks for every single product and add-on.

We wanted to do it rapidly. And so I started out with hosting a book club. , First we have to teach everybody the model. , I used the Make It Punchy book by Emma Stratton and we held a book club meeting weekly for about a month to get through the book. And I basically drafted Cliff notes.

Every single week in case somebody maybe didn't make it through the book. And then we brought everybody to headquarters, which is in Buie, Maryland, just outside of DC And I locked [00:23:00] product marketers along with content marketers. A representative from sales and a representative from product each in rooms to go over the product portfolio that they were assigned to.

Now one of the challenges we had to overcome was I can't be in 15 different rooms at once. And so we needed to have basically an AI version of me to help check people's work and provide guidance. Because I was still physically there, but I was going to the spots that needed me the most. And so, I partnered with my a VP of digital Chris Marin.

He developed a phenomenal AI agent that essentially would assess messaging based upon those three components we spoke about earlier. So being, you know, outside, in customer centric, focused on the big win and um, d jargon. And it would grade the work that you had done. And so it would give a, you know, an A, a B, a C and when you've [00:24:00] got somebody in there from product, somebody from sales, somebody from marketing, this creates a kind of competitive bunch.

So as they were working through the messaging, and I had developed a worksheet. That basically operationalized all of the tips and tricks from the Make it punchy book and all of the exercises that you can do to arrive at, you know, what is your value prop, what are your benefits, what are your features, and how do you write the hero's story?

Once they would produce, say, a value proposition, which is the big one they would pop it into this AI agent, and then the AI agent would come back and say, you know what? You got a b plus, but here's some tips and tricks that you could do to get yourself up to an A. What this resulted in is it gamified the process for us.

So, you know, while I had. Kind of locked, you know, 15 different teams into 15 different rooms. They didn't experience writer's block. They were able to maintain momentum, excitement, enthusiasm [00:25:00] between a cross-functional group. And everyone was really focused on getting that, you know, a or a plus. From the AI agent.

And then when I went back through and I reviewed every single messaging bank after they were produced, it was really clear they were all being held to the same standard. Interesting byproduct of that exercise is we had enthusiastic buy-in from sales, enthusiastic buy-in from product, and then product marketing.

Everybody was on the same page because they were all involved in it, and they all had a voice. And so that accelerated the go to market for the messaging, it accelerated it through content marketing. You know, writing the copy that resulted from the messaging banks. It accelerated sales enablement because they were in the room and part of the creation of the messaging bank.

So they intrinsically already knew it. And it really was able to provide product with feedback from the field [00:26:00] live. And insights from all of the stakeholders in the go to market, so that then product could go back and, you know, in some cases decide to focus more on different projects based upon what we had landed on for the value prop.

Jeff: And I think it's important to point out, like you didn't just magically have the stuff in your head where you then created this AI agent for them to interact with. This came from before any of that, you talked to tons of customers and you started to go into this. But this is where that kind of story about the value was not, you know, extra y It was that you can actually take a day off 

Lanie: Mm. 

Jeff: season still.

Lanie: Exactly. So we came to the table with insights from customer interviews. That was the basis. For for the workshops is there was homework that our product marketers did and they were calling up customers and interviewing them before we ever went in so that we came to the table with a workshop guide and then customer interviews.

[00:27:00] And so as folks were working through what is the big win customers could achieve, they're going back to those customer interviews. In some cases, they were reengaging with the customer halfway through to go, Hey, am I on the right track? Is, does this sound right to you? And customers were incredibly enthusiastic to answer any questions.

Jeff: I think that's something that people often miss is, it's amazing to me how people are very happy to give you, I.

Their feedback and to explain to you their point of view. And they wanna feel involved if you are respectful of time and make it useful for them. , Being willing to do the iterative cycles with customers, but also prospects in the market that really helped hone that.

And people should look at that not as time wasted, but that is, you know, talk to the market about your value and what you bring and why it's important. That's the most valuable time you can possibly spend. It's a product person or is a marketer,

Lanie: absolutely. I think that there is sometimes a misconception that customers feel like may not want to [00:28:00] participate in those interviews and may not want to share how they're feeling. And certainly there are probably some folks out there that are. Are too busy. They're introverts. Maybe they don't wanna hop on a call.

But overwhelmingly the customers that my team has reached out to, they have been enthusiastic about getting on a call, answering questions, and the closer. Product marketers and then product managers can get to the customer, the more honest they're gonna be with you. And then also you're right, having that iterative relationship where you can go back and say, I heard you.

This is what I produced. Now, what do you think? You're not only able to make better progress on your messaging, your storytelling, the value props, but then you're building really solid, high trust relationships with your customers, and they're more likely to come back to you and say, Hey I am willing to do that customer testimonial.

I will get on say a podcast with you because they feel heard.

Jeff: Well, it's interesting I think [00:29:00] everyone knows Wiz the, you know, security startup that was one of the fastest growing, you know, companies ever.

But I remember reading a piece about. How they achieved that. And it was obviously a huge part of it was just great product market fit. But what the person went into in the article was a lot of what the, I forget it was an accelerator, incubator kind of whatever, choose your word there that they were a part of early on.

A lot of it was focused on finding great talent but a lot of it was also they had this network of CISOs who they gave access to their companies to. And Wiz would go and basically talk to this huge network of CISOs who would also be great buyers to find out what they needed and go build and come back and go, is this right?

And they go, ah, I wish you could do this, and this. And they'd go back and do it and come back. And by the time they launched they had, you know, a hundred CISOs who were just. Chomping at the bit to buy their product because it was exactly what they said they needed. But beyond that, because they had been part of that feedback process iteratively, they felt bought in, they felt, you know, like they were part of the [00:30:00] success and they didn't just buy it, they told their peers.

It became this very like word of mouth thing that you cannot manufacture fake. You have to actually go do the work to do it. It has to be just amazing product market fit and having people feel identified and seen,

Lanie: 100%. I mean, and there, there is some nuances around how you have those conversations, right? I mean, you could very easily fall into the pitfall of you now have a product that is over-engineered and has a million. Features because you essentially were talking to a handful of customers that had lots of great ideas, but you weren't peeling back that onion on.

Why they thought that feature would be helpful to them? I tend to ask a lot of peel back the onion questions when I'm talking to customers because sometimes a customer will jump straight into solutioning. I really don't want the customer to solution. I want the customer to tell me. What are their pains?

What are their goals? How could their life be improved? And then I look to product and [00:31:00] engineering to figure out what those solutions will look like so that we can be sure that they're scalable and they make sense for a variety of different use cases.

Jeff: Exactly. It was, if it was as easy as just asking people they wanted and building that, you'd only have to talk to 'em once. 

This is why the iterative process is so important, but it's also why the framework you laid out is so important is keep in mind, right. How do you make the customer the hero?

What is the big win that you're delivering to them?

Lanie: Exactly 100%.

Jeff: Awesome. Well, I am really stoked we were able to do this. 'cause I think we were able to kinda really dive into how do you do great storytelling? How do you ensure that you're doing the right things around talking to customers, and how do you make the best time of that and build the narrative, like you said, so you don't just build a bunch of little point things that people just randomly asked for.

And then, you know, I love, the being able to go through the case study at Innovalon and really seeing what does that mean in reality? How did you do it? but yeah I really appreciate you coming on la This is a great conversation. I feel like I learned about positioning even more than before and I've been doing marketing for [00:32:00] 20 years at this point, so hopefully some of the listeners did.

If people wanna reach out ask more questions find out more about, you know, positioning or storytelling I think we connect on LinkedIn. Is that kinda the best place for

Lanie: Absolutely. Yeah. Hit me up on LinkedIn. I am happy to share resources. I have an entire workshop guide and kind of crash course and how you. Do all of this. And so I'm more than happy to share that one of the reasons why I love product marketing is I feel like you learn something new every day.

You never really know everything. So I'm happy to share the knowledge to fellow product marketers, product managers anybody who is trying to raise the bar on storytelling.

Jeff: Nice. Thank you everyone for listening. If you like this kinda information, if you want to hear more of it if you're on YouTube uh, subscribe.

If you're on Spotify, apple, or any of those things, please follow the podcast write us a review. You know, all that kinda stuff. It really goes a long way to gain the word out and helping us continue to make this kind of content for y'all. But Lainey, again, thank you so much for coming on. This is a blast.

Let's stay in touch and hopefully we can talk again soon.

Lanie: Thank you so much, [00:33:00] chef. It's been a real pleasure.

Jeff: Sam, thank you.