Fluent Show, ep 232 india

NOTES

[00:47:49] EXAMPLE WORDS TO BE ADDED


TRANSCRIPT

Eliza: [00:00:00] Anyone who speaks a language, you know, natively, they take it for granted. You know, we don't we don't sit and think about our own language.

Kerstin: [00:00:19] And here I am with my two guests, Jessica and Eliza, and I'm going to start off by introducing both of you with your respective bios. So in this interview, I've got two guests, which is always such a delight, and I'm hoping that what we're going to do is get more perspectives on this really fascinating topic of learning languages of India when you're not from India. Everybody's with me. So my first guest is Jessica Kumar. Jessica is an economic development advocate, and she lives in Bihar, in India, and she's also a podcast host. She started invisible India to highlight cross-cultural relationships between Westerners and Indians, and she and her husband hosted the show together. Her husband's name is Abhishek. Hey, Jessica.

Jess: [00:01:12] Hey, Kerstin, I'm so glad to be on the show. Thank you. Big man.

Kerstin: [00:01:16] No problem. Thank you for joining me from today from Chicago, which is, I believe, six hours behind me and my next guest is coming to us from five six hours ahead of me. So we've never had this much time zone stretch. This is Eliza Keyton. Eliza, who is an English teacher currently residing in Vietnam. She's worked in Korea, in the UAE. She's worked in the States. And she has been involved in the ESL community. So she's an English teacher. The ESL community since the age of 21, where she began as a supplementary teacher in the Korean countryside, Eliza has also dabbled in Spanish, Japanese, Korean, Arabic, Vietnamese and is known to lots of people on the internet as a learner of Malayalam, which is a language of India. Hey Eliza,

Eliza: [00:02:11] Good evening.

Kerstin: [00:02:13] Hey. Thank you so much for joining us from Vietnam under a duvet. Under a blanket.

Eliza: [00:02:19] Yes, it's quite cosy. Actually, I'm not complaining.

Kerstin: [00:02:24] So something that both of you have in common. You've got lots of surface stuff in common, which is you're American women married to Indian men. And I thought, we'll start with some like meet cute, like a rom com. Jess, how did you meet your husband?

Jess: [00:02:41] Well, actually, I was living in India for about four years before I met Abhishek, and I was living in a small city named Haridwar, which is in northern India, about five hours north of Delhi. And I was doing an internship there in it, so I learnt Hindi at that time. And I was doing some volunteer work when I was going back and forth to Chicago with, like recent immigrants, but mostly a lot of refugees. And he was living in the states, but wanted to do some volunteer work as well, and we got connected through a friend. So actually, I was living in India and he was living in the United States, so we were kind of did a flip flop, but we met when I went back to the states for a visit. And yeah, long story short, our our parents, you know, at that time, you know, I was early 20s and it was like my parents were kind of a big, you know, part of my life. And so my parents got to know him and I got to know his side of the family and then everything worked out and we were able to make it work and get married. And that was 12 almost 12 years ago.

Kerstin: [00:03:53] Wow, and still going strong.

Jess: [00:03:56] Two kids later. Hopefully, you won't hear them on the show at all.

Kerstin: [00:04:01] Now we sort of jumped right into the middle of your story. And so you were already living in India. What was your daily life like back then?

Jess: [00:04:09] Yeah. Well, as far as language aspects, I would get up in the morning. I would have my chai, of course, and my language helper. I did like an immersion course during that time, so my language nurturer and language helper would come over at around 8:30. You know, we try to beat the heat so she wouldn't have to travel in the middle of the day and we would do different conversational projects together. And then she would leave. I would have lunch. I would then go to the office and for my internship I would write, I ride my bicycle around. I looked like a fool because women in India in this, especially if you're like a middle class woman or above, you do not ride a bicycle. But I did anyway because I just liked it. You walk or you take a scooter or you drive so or you take public transit. You do not bicycle, but I bicycle. And then I would do my internship. And then in the evenings, I would be doing language practise and studying and things like that. So it was it was a it was a different time of life, for sure. I had a lot of time to devote to studying language full time and focusssing on Hindi. And it was it was a perfect time for me to be able to dive in and learn. And I know not everyone has that luxury.

Kerstin: [00:05:32] This you mentioned, you mentioned the language nurturer. Then I will come back and ask you a lot more about that because I'm already so curious. Sure. But yeah, let's do a romcom scene change then and head to where are we even heading to Eliza?

Eliza: [00:05:47] We're heading to the Middle East. We're heading to the UAE. Oh my God. So I spent five years in the UAE working at an Emirati school, and despite being an Arab nation, 50 percent of the population of the UAE is actually from the Indian continent. So you have Pakistanis, Sri Lankans, Indians and so forth. So, you know, our story seems like pretty cut and dry. We met on a dating app because in Dubai, it's really hard to meet people and you know, you work hard and you know, you have, you know, everyone has their little pockets where they gather. So it can be really hard to meet new people or people who want like a long term relationship. Because the Middle East can be kind of a revolving door. People come in for a year or two to make money and then go. So Arjun and I met on a dating app, but we didn't actually get to meet face to face right away because we were just finishing the school year and I was doing an eight week trip to backpack across Australia and New Zealand. And so basically, it was like, Hey, we didn't get to meet. If you're still interested, when I get back, we can meet up. But whatever. No pressure. And then the entire two months that I'm travelling, we are sending each other voice notes. Every day we Skyped, on my birthday like we shared stories. When the time difference got too much, we just would send each other like one long voice note each day. So we would hear it when the other person would wake up. And the first time we actually met face to face was at Dubai Airport when I flew 20 hours back from New Zealand and he picked me up to take me home. Oh my God,

Jess: [00:07:27] That's so sweet.

Eliza: [00:07:28] I literally said, I literally said, If you like me now, it's only going to get better. Like if you can fall in love with someone after a twenty two hour trip, eight weeks backpacking across the outback, then you know,

Kerstin: [00:07:41] You're not like, you're not like the moisturising on the aeroplane. Doing your makeup.

Eliza: [00:07:45] I literally I literally had a friend messaged me and say, You're insane. This is a bad idea. Look, don't do this. I'm like, Nah, I'm I'm almost 30. I don't have time to play games anymore. Like, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. And yes, and he basically was really open with his parents right away like, Hey, I'm seeing this girl, hey, she's American, blah blah blah. After about four months, that was the first time I went to see his part of India, Kerala and meeting the family and all that. And then, yeah, we got married a year later after meeting. So we've now been married. We just passed our third anniversary, so still still new in the game. But we're we're having an adventure, that's for sure.

Kerstin: [00:08:34] Yeah, something that something that I'm noticing like already is both of you, you know, deciding to cycle like nobody else cycles, but this is my thing deciding to backpack around Australia. There's a lot of, you know, you're independent women with your own sort of ways of doing things. And I'm wondering how how does that fit into not just like gender roles or whatever, but like how does that fit into the dating scene of where your husbands are from?

Jess: [00:09:03] Great question. Oh my goodness. We could we could talk about this for a long time, but I would say I live in Bihar where my husband is from. Right now I'm in Chicago, but we spend I spend an inordinate amount of time scheming and thinking of ways that I can do things by myself or have independence. And I would honestly, I'm being very open with that. The way that my life looks to people in India, the people in my community in the way that my life actually is looks different to them. So the way that I that we I don't want to say and this is what everybody does, there's an inside outside type of I don't want to say facade, but because everybody knows it's there, there's a way you show your life to the public in India, and then there's a way that things are behind closed doors. Everybody does it. Everybody knows it exists. But that is just how it is. It's saving face, right? It's a shame based culture. So you do everything you can to honour your family. And so inside my house, I'm wearing a tank top and shorts when it's one hundred and fifteen degrees Fahrenheit, you know, forty two degrees Celsius. And when I'm out on the street, I'm wearing the long dupatta and the kurta pyjama and I'm wearing a bindi and I have my hair, you know, tied back nicely. And because it reflects on our family and reflects on the values of my husband's family.

Jess: [00:10:36] And for me to assert my independence in a public way and be going around the community and wearing whatever I want or doing crazy stuff like whatever I want. It hurts the reputation of the family in that community. So for me, I don't care. I mean, I don't feel oppressed like, Oh, my in-laws are making me do. They're not making me do anything. They didn't make me move to India. They I chose to do that. So. But I know that the way that we behave and even our relationship, you know, the things that we do in our house, like Abishek helps out a lot more than probably more Indian men do. He carries a lot more of a load as far as domestic responsibilities, but we don't always necessarily show that to the community into the public. So I, you know, this is definitely a struggle living in a more conservative part of India. If I were to live in Delhi, Bangalore, Mumbai, this would not really be as much of an issue. I would have no issues going and, you know, catching a train somewhere or catching a flight somewhere on my own. But in Bihar, I have to think twice. What will people say? What will people think? Not because I actually care, but because, you know, it's just the way the community works. My husband's family cares, and I have to just be a little careful about the way I present myself.

Kerstin: [00:12:01] Mm hmm. And you've just mentioned, so I think just for podcast listeners who might not be so familiar with India. You've mentioned Bangalore, Delhi and then Bihar as a as a contrast to that and what I know about India, I sort of know, you know, the main cities. So I forgot Mumbai. Shout out to Mumbai. We'll never forget it again. But those kind of bigger, more cosmopolitan places exist. And then there's a strong contrast between that and and where you live.

Jess: [00:12:33] Definitely. Definitely. So I think I think that's the thing about India. This isn't and this is one of the things I know we'll probably do. Some of the shades of colour will come out as we talk because Eliza and I both have experiences in very different parts of India with extremely different languages. So Malayalam and Hindi have almost nothing in common. I mean, you would not when you speak Malayalam and you speak Hindi if if neither is it, you would not be able to understand even hardly anything. There's hardly any overlap when it comes to how the languages are spoken today. And so it's really incredible that how diverse India is and how the just the incredible amount of just differences you can find within one country.

Eliza: [00:13:22] And I think it's interesting that we talk about the differences because as you said on the surface, Jessica and I seem like we have a very similar story, but our dynamics with our family are very different. Our experiences with language are very different. And, you know, it's really tempting to jump on like, you know, the story and what it is. But you know, Jessica's story doesn't necessarily reflect my own, and mine doesn't necessarily reflect another even, you know, Malayali couple, you know, so it's it's it is kind of interesting how things are so diverse. Even if you travel 10 20 kilometres, you know, it just it's just fascinating, and the dynamics can change so quickly and shift so quickly and not just through Geographics, but also through community and caste and things like that. And it's it's extremely diverse.

Kerstin: [00:14:12] Eliza, we've we've heard from Jess Jessica, who says, you know, who's telling a story and describing her experience as a woman living in India, living in the community. Now for you, you're a sort of half in the community. I would, I would assume, does it feel very different because you you don't live in India currently, and I believe you have never lived in India.

Eliza: [00:14:34] Absolutely. So I've travelled to a few parts in India, and the longest I've stayed in Kerala is about three weeks. So I definitely do not have that same kind of expectation that maybe Jessica has felt to, you know, blend into the community and make sure that she's representing her family well. But also, I do have this incredible social media presence, so you know, which is a little bit easier to maintain, right? Because you can curate that version of yourself online. But I did notice, you know, when I went to Kerala, you know, I would have to change the way that I dressed. I would need to be careful about the things that I did. And even though I was solo travelling in many parts like it wasn't like I was completely alone. I always had a friend or a connexion or someone there looking after me. And it was definitely, you know, if I didn't have a driver for the day, my father in law would arrange for one because he would want to to know exactly where I'm going. And, you know, growing up in the states, it's like, Oh, I can do my own thing.

Eliza: [00:15:34] I can do this all by myself. And it's like, it's not that it's a controlling or oppressive thing. It's genuine care. Like, my father in law wants me to be safe and comfortable. And you know, some things about this relationship have been kind of. Not a compromise, but just definitely a shifting of the way I see things like I'm still very strongly independent. Three three months after we got married, I went on a solo trip across Jordan. You know that because that's important to me, but also I've learnt to be more open to the type of displays of affection that are more common in an Indian family. Things that maybe some Americans find as getting into your business or talking too much about you or asking too many questions. I've had to learn to step back and really shape my perceptions. No, they they want to know about me because they're worried for me or they want to know about something. Or, you know, I might say something and they'll remember it later when they want to help me with something. And I'm sure Jessica knows exactly what I'm talking about with.

Kerstin: [00:16:39] Yeah.

Eliza: [00:16:41] And and thankfully, Arjun he he is a really great mediator. I'm really thankful to have a husband that can really explain my perspective and be that kind of buffer between me and the rest of the family or cultural expectations. And it really prevents any like really dramatic meltdowns from happening because if I'm in the wrong, you know, he'll be able to communicate why or if his parents may be stepped a little too over the line he can tell them. And I don't have to lose face in front of them like I've never had an out and out like, you know, argument with his parents. It's always I've always had a mediator, and it's always been a way to kind of maintain positive relations with his family. But it is a learning experience. It absolutely is, and it takes a lot of grace and humility. And sometimes it can be very, very hard to just swallow your pride and be like, OK, you know, it's you don't have to be like this all the time. You don't have to be right all the time. So it's it's it's day by day kind of thing.

Kerstin: [00:17:42] Yeah. Yeah. Gosh. He sounds as a as somebody who takes her English husband to her German family sometimes. And you'd think, like, we're all on the same continent. All Europeans are the same, but the the culture of bridges I've had to bridge sometimes.

Jess: [00:18:01] Yeah

Kerstin: [00:18:02] You know, the expectations you you kind of explain about the differences and that that mediating skills sounds divine. If he does classes, please sign me up, because that sounds amazing.

Eliza: [00:18:16] I have to say the one time I actually got shouted out by my husband was he had a cousin that lives in Bangalore, and his cousin messaged me directly to say, like, Oh, I heard you're visiting Bangalore, you should come and see me. I was like, Yeah, sure. You know, if I find the time, I'll be able to swing by in Arjun's like you told him what he thinks like, that's my cousin. You don't just make time. See if you can find time. You make time for the cousin, like, you know. So I go from the American expectations of, Oh yeah, if you're in town, swing by. Like, No, this is your obligation to my family.

Kerstin: [00:18:52] You put on your Sunday best.

Eliza: [00:18:55] And you bring gifts. So like in food? Yeah. Yeah. So things like that, big learning moments.

Kerstin: [00:19:04] Now this is brilliant. Ok, so I have I have a question for both of you. I would love for both of you because Jessica already mentioned, like learning, you know, the differences between Hindi and Malayalam. And then we've got the differences between Bihar and Kerala, Kerala, Kerala. I'll just mess up the pronunciation, and I would love for both of you. Eliza, maybe if you could start to describe your India to me, like, what is your India? What does it feel like? What what do you experience? Where do you think of when you think India?

Eliza: [00:19:38] Oh my goodness. So like, first of all, India is really diverse and I think I've seen about 15 percent of it. So there's just so much that I haven't seen or experienced myself. And you know, when people think of India as a single country, it's like, no, think of it more like the EU because like every area has its own, you know, language, culture, food. And so to me, India, you know, it's. I don't know, it's it's just so diverse and it's so ancient, and there are so many pockets of history and civilisation and culture, and it's like, I remember one time I was backpacking and someone said to me, India can be this big emotional like wave where in the same day you go from, Wow, this is the pinnacle of like history and culture and society. How incredible and what is happening right now, you know? So it's like this big like, am I actually saying this? Like, like what's going on? Kind of a thing, and it can be very startling. It can be amazing and beautiful and pristine. And then it can also be just like like confounding some things like, I don't think I've ever been in a place where I experienced so many culture shocks in a short amount of time because there's things that you think you expect and there's things that you don't expect in both positive and negative directions. And it's one of those things where it's there's no really single idea or definition that can be what India is because there's just so much to it and you can live there for years. And I'm sure Jessica can agree and not really still comprehend, you know, all of what is India?

Kerstin: [00:21:24] For you, it's the the multitudes of India are what makes up India.

Eliza: [00:21:31] Yeah, it's a layers, layers and layers and layers.

Kerstin: [00:21:34] Jess what about you?

Jess: [00:21:35] One hundred percent agree India is an assault on the senses in all ways, and that could be a one on an assault in overwhelmed, overwhelmed nation. That's not a word. It could be overwhelming the senses in every way. And one thing that is said about India and I could not agree more is India. The only thing you can say that's true about India everywhere is diversity, diversity, diversity. So you say one thing about India, the opposite is also true. If you say, you know, India, it is everything to everyone. I mean, it is. It is so incredibly, India is very crowded. Ok, well, India also has places that are incredibly bare in the remote. India, you know, has has very, I mean, just, you know, has very spicy food or India also has, you know, if you've ever been to Northeast India, they make they literally like boil cabbage like people eat that. You know, India has elephants, will they're a part of India that doesn't have that. India has this. India has that. It is literally, I mean, just probably the most diverse place on Earth. I don't quote me on that. It's just unbelievably different. So the part when you talk about India, you can't talk about people talk about India's or Indian cultures. There's no one culture. It's cultures. And and this also is very true of the different religious systems. So like Hindu, I'm getting on a little bit of a tangent, but like Hinduism, right? There's Hinduism. There's so many different views and perspectives. If you ask the Hindu person what they believe. You ask 10 different people. They will give you 10 different answers. There's no central doctrine.

Jess: [00:23:19] There's no. So this is this is all evolved over the millennia. And it's really, you know, I'm so glad that we're seeing more and more representation of Indians come up and say, this is what my India looks like. And that's one of the things that I know Eliza and I are both really committed to is is like elevating and amplifying Indian and South Asian voices to say here, tell me what your part of India is like. Tell me what you think about this issue. And that's one of that's one of the purposes of my podcast is not only to talk about my own perspectives, but to give stereotype breaking South Asians a chance to say this is what my part of India looks like. And so that's why it's the Invisible India podcast is OK, what are the things that are might be invisible to the outsider, which you want to bring to light? So I could get into all these things about Bihar. I'll just share two things where I where I live. Bihar is known as the poorest state in India, and the least educated in Kerala is actually the most educated state in India. So we have these two contrasts. Bihar has a lot of bad rap. Some of it is warranted in some of it really isn't. So I think a lot of the other work that I'm kind of doing with my social media and the podcast is talking about, Hey, these stereotypes are actually not totally true about Bihar. I live there as an American. This is what I see. These are the true things, and these are the false things, and the rest speaks for itself.

Kerstin: [00:24:56] Mm-hmm. Now, because because the the fascination, or at least for me, is so often in in the detail and in like the specific things, I wonder if there's like an object, something like almost an object that sums up what India not or not, everything we've just said we can't sum up India Kerstin. So I'm trying to sum up India. But what in your relationship or something that in your life always makes you think of, you know, your own personal impression of India. So for me, who has very little impression of India? I visited a think four times. But if I think India something I never thought before, I moved there instantly now it's like took talks and it's those trucks that are so colourfully painted and they write on it, please sound your horn and they actually invite you in traffic to go around beeping all the time, which for me, as a as somebody who came from, you know, like Germany, where we have driving lessons and everything is very much like here or here is the order. Here are the rules. This is how you do the thing. It was it was an absolute just mind explosion. I can't believe it. And now to me, that is that is something I'm never, ever going to not associate with that place.

Jess: [00:26:19] Yeah, for me, I don't have one thing. I think there's just so many. I mean, yeah, it's like asking me, like, is there something that symbolises America? Like, I don't really. I don't have one thing like, you know, it's just so many things. But I can say with the rickshaw, Oh man, yes, it's so relatable. And when I was learning to drive in India, my my husband was just like, Honk, honk, honk, honk. Don't need to

Kerstin: [00:26:44] You drive in India?

Jess: [00:26:45] Yeah! And he's like, You are not honking enough, you will actually get in an accident. If you don't let someone know that you are right behind them or on their immediate right, cos people don't look in their rear-view mirrors, you can't. It makes sense to me now I understand why it's done. And in some places where you actually have proper road, where there's lights, where there's like this flow of traffic you can get away with not using it like Delhi has instituted no honking. I mean, it still happens. But they they've said, you know, people, you get fined for honking not every time, but you can get fined for honking now on certain roads. But in Bihar, where we live, you will kill someone if you do not honk. You have to honk because that lets them know you are there, you're around. You're coming around this tight little corner and there might be someone standing right in this corner, you know, having a cigarette or talking or buying vegetables. And if they don't know you're there, they can't get out of the way. You know, so and it's like that, it's like whoever has the biggest car has the right of way. Pedestrians don't have the right way, which irks me, but that's just how the system works.

Kerstin: [00:27:52] Yeah, but it works, right? So traffic beeping, it's it's a cool sound. I definitely remember there now when I think back, I'm just like, beep beep, beep beep, beep beep. It's everywhere. Eliza, what about you? Is there something that that is as an object that you would want to show someone when talking about India?

Eliza: [00:28:11] It's interesting because I think that I focussed so much on Malayalam and Kerala. Like, for me, I feel like Kerala has kind of its its own thing. It's its own state, it's its own people and language and place.

Kerstin: [00:28:22] And so it kind of and I should not I should not ask about India against this should really I should really specify which is what I mean, but I'm not putting into words very well. So thank you for putting me up on that, actually.

Eliza: [00:28:34] Yeah, yeah. So like when I think about Kerala, like, I don't know, there's just something about when I left the UAE, which is like this big desert hot place. And then you arrive and you're just surrounded by, you know, backwaters and coconut trees and you know, your food comes wrapped in banana leaves and everything's just so green. Like when you say Kerala, the first thing I think of is green, because it's just, yeah, it's just amazing. Incredibly amazing. And yeah, so I think that if someone wanted to talk about Kerala, I would just show them nature and how fantastic it is. And you know, it's it's it's really great. And Vietnam reminds me a bit of Kerala. In some ways, the types of fruits and vegetables are similar, even the even the honking on the street. I remember doing my first video in Vietnam and someone commented, Are you in India? I can hear the cars and I'm like, No, that's just me. And it's the same thing as Jessica said. Like, you have to let people know you're coming up, you have to let people know you're making a turn. And even as I ride my bicycle here, I dinged my little bell like, Hey, I'm turning, or hey, you know, and I'm coming through the intersection, please stop. You know, you have to do it. So some things here do remind me a lot of of Kerala, especially in the South. You see similar things done with food. You see similar things done in culture and scenery. So it's it's it's really nice. So. Mm hmm.

Kerstin: [00:30:06] Yes. And you kind of want. It's it's really a beautiful illustration of, look, they have a system, their system works like, who are we to kind of come in and go, Well, you guys shouldn't be so much like, have you heard of traffic lights? It's like, No, it works. They're doing their thing. Now I'm going to come with another surface surface impression that I think is very if you look at India for about more than four seconds, you instantly know this isn't true. But on the surface, people might look at it. And I've spoken to many people who look at it and say, Well, that's an English speaking country. And I wondered about the because you can visit India as a tourist and only be an English speaker and and get by perfectly fine. You can probably even live there and be a just English speaker. So I'm curious what is different for you as a Hindi speaker, as in Malayalam speaker in India, outside of India? Hmm.

Jess: [00:31:08] Sure, I can. I can take a stab at that first. I think the touristy or the kind of the the the certain level of society is accessible to English speaking people. If you go to Delhi, if you go to a place, you go to again, I'm listing all the major metropolitans. But even, you know, great tier two cities, even Tier two cities, you can get around with the basic, you know, conversations. There are some parts if you go more interior or and this is where some of the real, you know, ancient practises are still held right or some of the, you know, I don't want to say the real India, right, because the real India is also extremely modern and incredibly forward thinking, right? It's all the real India, the, you know, the people that are cooking on mud stoves in rural Bihar and the people who are people who are dancing, you know, cushy booty dance. These are all the real India and the people who are, you know, have iPhone 12 and driving their Rolls Royce like on the streets of Mumbai or whatever. That's also the real India. So I think that you can access different layers of India when you do speak in Indian language. And I think that's the the misconception is that, oh, people don't speak English. Well, people do. But there's like there's like different layers of society that you can access and that you can learn from. And I think that that's the incredible thing is you can learn a lot going to India. Just speaking English and so many people do. In fact, the majority of people and it's kind of odd because we have two people on the call, right, who we've we've learnt Indian languages, but actually most people that go to India that live in India as a foreigner do not learn because English is so predominant and it is.

Jess: [00:33:09] There are languages. Like I would say, Malayalam is a lot more difficult to learn than Hindi as far as the actual technicalities of the language, the pronunciation, some of the different syntax and things like that. But the it's the social dynamics in India, which actually make it difficult for foreigners, particularly if you are a foreigner that looks very different. Like if you have very European features or if you have very African features, it can be very difficult to break that social barrier to actually get get to know the culture. So I think that's that's one of the tricky things. So yeah, as a Hindi speaker, you know, as far as what that looks like on a day to day basis, people just really let their guard down quickly, like, add them up to here. I guess they see, you know, how did you learn such fluent Hindi? And then I explain and try to cut to the chase as quick as possible. I've lived here for a long time. I'm married to an Indian. Oh, OK. And then rather so people just realise, Oh, actually, she's not one of us, but she gets it in a sense. So I think that's one of the things I'm really passionate about is helping people to learn Indian languages and sharing my tips and tricks that I've learnt a lot over the last 16 years.

Kerstin: [00:34:35] Yeah. what you're describing is something that I've heard from so many language learners again and again and again. And I think it's one of the deepest motivators that we have, which is that the sense of belonging, the sense of not being an outsider and making that making the connexion deeper and really like being with the people that you're surrounded by and and just belonging to for lack of a better word to the, let's say, tribe, you know, the the bigger group of people who might take care of you. That is something that people describe in different words again and again and again. And like you're saying the language for you, it's been a real access point. Eliza, I'm curious for you. What about learning Malayalam outside of India? How does that affect how you interact with with Kerala and with, you know, your target community?

Eliza: [00:35:36] So Malayalam is interesting because we've got a lot of layers to go through here. First of all, you know, English is one of the 22 official languages. I'm sorry, English is one of the official 22 languages of India, and so it's spoken, you know, universally and people learn it in order to have social mobility. It's the one way that they can move across the country and get work in other places is by having a certain level of English. And as a result of that, you see this push for English medium education. You see English, take the prestige language status. I use this example quite often on a wedding invitation in Kerala. The invitation will not be written in Malayalam, it'll be written in English, even if all the guests are. So it has this prestige class. So as Jessica alluded to, you know, there are different social dynamics around the language of English. You know, the types of people who learn at people who can access it, who uses it on a day to day basis. There are also Anglo Indians who are speakers of English from birth and their families and their homes. So you have those pockets as well. And then there's another interesting dynamic with Hindi, because even though Hindi is used throughout official documents and on TV and medium, you know, it's again only one of the 22 languages. However, it has more spread. You know, most people speak Hindi, as are. Many people speak Hindi as a second language, regardless of their first language.

Eliza: [00:37:13] And you do have Hindi medium schools throughout now in India. There's this, uh, there's this linguistic split. Ok, so in the south, you have the Dravidian languages, which include Malayalam and neighbouring Tamil Nadu, and some are not especially has a very strong resistance to Hindi possibly being seen as overtaking Tamil. To the point where they've, you know, protested against Hindi road signs, protested against Hindi medium education in schools, and there's kind of a pushback. So sometimes as a learner of a language, you also learn about the baggage that's associated with that language. And so there's this, you know, you're learning Malayalam, you're learning dumber. You know, some people see it as like, Yeah, yeah, we need to learn this language and preserve it and love it. And some people see it as like a pushing of an agenda. And Jessica and I have talked about this before as well where, you know, you can say you love Hindi and you want to learn it and you want other people to learn it. But then some people interpret that also as an agenda. And so it's just really fascinating, these kind of linguistic rabbit holes you get into when you start learning a language and learning about the differences within them and seeing the politics. And unfortunately, you know, when people, especially outsiders like us, start learning a language, certain people weaponize that like, Oh, look at this American woman learning Hindi like she, you know, supports like this or that,

Kerstin: [00:38:52] Or it must be important.

Eliza: [00:38:54] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I can hear Jessica sighing. She knows exactly. And same thing with like summer summer is extremely important. And but there are people on the other side of of the extremes, right, where they have the dumber nationalists, you know, and there's a lot of politically loaded things that happen with that as well. And then you get these talks about language, purity and which is the oldest language and what is the original language, and it gets really messy. So there's two sides to it. Like, I made a real recently on Instagram, basically just poking fun. Like, You know what? I'm so tired of arguing with people about linguistic things on the internet. I'm just going to drink water and mind my own business. Like that was the that was the joke. So it's a double edged sword. It's a double edged sword. Do you have a lot of fun? You tap into the community, you learn something that's not so mainstream in Indian culture because most of the exports are done in Hindi. But at the same time, like you have to wade through a lot of what my friend calls quantum linguistics and political agendas as well, and it can become a very icy path to take at times.

Kerstin: [00:40:04] Yeah, that's a good description. A kind of slippery. Yeah, yeah. Just people attach a lot of stuff, a lot of symbolism to a language. I've even experienced this with the one minority language I'm learning, which is Welsh, and I've met people in in Berlin randomly who were people who lived in Wales, but they were English and I told them I was so excited and super excitedly told them, Oh, I'm learning Welsh. Oh, it's so beautiful. I have never experienced such defensiveness, which which was, you know, it baffled me, but, well, baffled and offended me. But it was it was a real kind of reminder that like people read all sorts of stuff into into language choices and our choices as as learners, and that learning a language can be a whole symbolic act, even though you don't mean it to be that. I'll save some of this for asking you about your lives as content creators, both of you. But before that, I think let's have a quick dive into resources tutors courses. What is it like to? What's it been like? What? What's been your kind of toolkit of learning a language as, yeah, as a non-Indian learner well, or as an Indian, it doesn't really matter. So what? What works for you, Jessica? I'll start with you because you mentioned the language nurturer, and I think you've got a long sort of a longer story of learning Hindi there.

Jess: [00:41:36] Sure. So actually, I did things the very old school way where this was right when the internet and smartphones were smartphones weren't really in India yet. This is twenty six. And so I was at this crux where I had the communication to be able to actually be in India and like, live in India and still kind of keep in touch with my family, but also before smartphones changed everything. And so in apps and all this stuff, so I had a language nurturer and I would meet with her. The programme I did is still going on, but it's called OCL. It's not really a big programme, but it it was basically an immersion course. So I would I always recommend to people, you know, if you can get immersed, get immersed in whatever way that looks like. I had a very extreme experience where I was like, my goal was just to not really speak English for like six months as much as I could and for six months, I just. I was like told my parents and my family, so I'm going to call you once a month to check in, but other than that, I'm completely like really trying to focus. Of course, I worked in an office where there were English speakers, but I really tried to avoid them and not talk in English with them. So my I was very, very focussed on learning. And part of the reason was that I realised that there was this layers, right? The first layer was my job where I was able to actually communicate and get things done in English. But then to get to know the people, get to know their families, get to really understand the culture. I was very dedicated. I was just very interested and I knew that it was going to actually take a cutting off of part of my brain, I suppose, to be able to fully learn.

Jess: [00:43:26] And so that's that was what I did back in the day, right? But now things are so different. There's all these apps and all these, this that. And honestly, I would say that those are second best that I really think immersion and learning from people. That is the best way. And I know that Kerstin this is, you know, part of what you do is like helping people to learn languages and especially for Indian languages, there's so many nuances, there's so many cultural nuances that you have to really learn from a native speaker. So one thing that always happens is people like, Oh man, you know, can you teach me? Can you teach me Hindi or can you teach me? And can you teach me to speech? You should do Hindi classes. Ok, I'm not ever going to do Hindi classes, but because there's a point you have to learn from a native speaker. I really, really believe that firmly. And so part of what I'm trying to do is create resources that people can use to learn Hindi and I do create resources, but it's really about pointing back to native speakers and pointing back to those native resources and encouraging encouraging that whole process. So that's a that's a bit of my shtick, and I know Eliza feels similarly. We've had this conversation before, but yeah, it's it's there are many, many, many apps, tricks, books, whatever and there in some, I'm not going to go review all of them right now. But yeah, I'm just like immersion, immersion, immersion in real people, real people, free people. That's my mantra. Hmm.

Kerstin: [00:45:03] I have. I have never heard something that I know and apply it, not instinctively, but sort of naturally without thinking summed up so well as learn from a person. I think that's that's going to be the language learning advice that that I'm going to I'm going to take from this and really share, because that's so in my opinion, so, so true as well. Like you, I like that, you put it, I like how you put it, that apps are the second best, like, no terrible like people. Often, you know, if you say anything at all like that that might imply that Duolingo is in the best possible thing you can do. Everybody is like, Why do you hate Duolingo? It's like, No, no, it's just not as good as the other thing you can do. And so I love learning from a person. I wrote that down. I'm going to put lots of stars around it now. Eliza, what about you? Resources, tutors, courses? What did you do for Malayalam?

Eliza: [00:46:01] Oh, my goodness. So yeah, definitely learning from people, mostly because, you know, at least Hindi, you can find textbooks and and library books and things in Hindi Malayalam. Nope. When I first started learning Malayalam four years ago, there was a well-intentioned book called Learn Malayalam through English and 30 days. No, no, no, no. And I.

Kerstin: [00:46:30] Anything that says 30 days I just throw it far away.

Eliza: [00:46:34] And I tried to take online lessons. But then the UAE banned all VoIP services. So after about four italki lessons, I lost the connexion with my teacher because I couldn't use Skype anymore. And so, yeah, I started hitting up the internet and I found two PDFs. One of them was a linguistically grammatical analysis of Malayalam that was written as a PhD. And the other was a 1960s course book written for American Peace Corps volunteers. So so that's what I had to work with. And it was because of my own background as a language teacher that I was able to kind of work through things. But it just came back to having a lot of Connexions that spoke Malayalam, not just my husband, but the community. And that's why I started eli kutty. It was just a study gram. It was literally just me writing notes and seeing what people thought about it and getting corrections. And as the page grew, I grew my network and I grew my exposure. And you know, I've said this before, but your spouse or your partner is not necessarily. Your best teacher, because.

Jess: [00:47:44] Oh my Lord, I mean,

Eliza: [00:47:49] I have literally cried and I'd be like, Why is it like this? And he'll be like, I don't know. Like the first time I learnt that there were two different L's in Malayalam, and he's like, Yeah, because {word 1} and  {word 2} are two different words, and I'm like, What? And he's like, Yeah, Eliza: {word 1} and {word 2}. And I'm like, They sound the same. He goes, No one is {word 1}, one is {word 2}. And I'm like, Oh dear God, yeah. And it just took a lot of time because at that point, my husband had no background in teaching or linguistic awareness or anything. And anyone who speaks a language, you know, natively, they take it for granted. You know, we don't we don't sit and think about our own language. And so when someone asks us things like, why do you say it like this? But then you say it like that, you know, and it's like, Oh, I don't know how to answer it. And then the person gets annoyed because they're like, Well, this is my language, and I don't know it, you know? So, yeah, spouse is helpful to an extent. Relatives are useful to an extent, but it was just a lot of interacting. And for me, I look back and I'm just I always try to like people, ask me, What's your routine? What do you do? Because, you know, on YouTube and stuff, you have all these wonderful content creators who are like, study with me.

Eliza: [00:48:57] Here's what I do per week. I have nothing like that. I have no proper study schedule. I have no proper, you know, sit down to 15 minutes, make my Anki deck, you know? No, I don't do any of that. It's literally just been me, you know, headbutting my way through the language. I would have a conversation partner once a week during the pandemic where I would just tell her about my day until I couldn't talk. And then she would just help me through the sentence and then I'd keep talking. And but it worked for me because I don't mind sounding dumb in front of people. In another language, I kind of got over that. And that's that's pretty much what I've done. And because of my background as a language teacher, I was able to kind of work through the things that I found to kind of break them down and turn them into the tutorial videos that I do sometimes on my page. And people who are coming from an English background, English speaking background find them really useful because most of the resources that exist in Malayalam are for Malayalam speakers or those who grow up with Malayalam parents. It's not necessarily for someone like me who's starting from nothing.

Kerstin: [00:50:04] Yeah, this it's metalinguistic awareness I've heard I've heard listed sort of as one of the things, and I think it is very true and this is why school language learning so often falls flat is because there is just none of that. There's no outside the language skill. It's literally just we're going to we're going to throw some words at you. So I love what you're describing and social media as a resource for you as well. Mm hmm.

Eliza: [00:50:32] I've heard in Germany like they're quite good on educating Germans on German linguistic awareness, like, you know what, the parts of speech are and where they go and what they do? And would you say that's reflective of the background,

Kerstin: [00:50:46] But it's certainly reflective of my experience. Yes. Yes. I came out of primary school knowing what nouns are, knowing what verbs do and stuff. And then but I I also came out of primary school primary school first four years. You call, I don't know what you call it,

Eliza: [00:51:01] In elementary school

Jess: [00:51:02] Elementary.

Kerstin: [00:51:03] Yeah, yes, thank you. So I was just the kind of student who was just burning to learn English. So but even so, like, I wasn't burning to learn nouns, but I already knew what they were. And I've learnt Latin in school. Lots of our we've got a weird separated school system, but the kind of more academic school system branch they still do quite a lot of Latin. And my Latin classes started with two months of relearning German grammar before we went into the Latin. So we have we take our own language seriously, and it's something that I found deeply shocking when I first moved to England and I learnt how English speakers learn other languages that I really think there's a massive gap. And I've I've created courses I've created like German courses and stuff for people, and I never I never skipped the bit where I tell them what the actual purpose of this part of speech is because you can't take it for granted. So I that's also the big asterix. Sorry, that's that was the other thing I wanted to add to what Jessica was saying and what both of you were saying comes together. I think so beautifully, which is learn from a person, learn from a native speaker, but big asterisk. Choose someone who is like linguistically aware or has some kind of teaching ability.

Kerstin: [00:52:27] Like, like, not every native speaker is is a good tutor. But if you can find one who's a tutor who is also a native speaker like, yeah, you know, that's that's so great. I love how the drive of I think again in both, if you like, drive in the the natural like sense of independence is really coming through and how you describe your learning, like Jessica, just going hard on the immersion and you realise that saying like, I don't have, you know, if I don't do my anki cards or whatever, I do my thing.

Kerstin: [00:52:57] Hmm. Ok, so let me ask you about life as a content creator, because otherwise we'll have a four hour interview, which I would like to have. And listeners, if you would like to listen to the four hour Fluent Show with these two wonderful women, we can we can make it happen. Ok, so yeah. Now what motivates both of you work very hard as I'm just going to sum it up as content creator. So, Jessica, you're a fellow podcaster and Eliza, you're mostly an Instagrammer Insta Instagram personality. I don't know what it's called. I'm too old. I'm not. And what motivates both of you to work so hard on sharing information about India and your languages, etc. with the wider world?

Jess: [00:53:45] I guess I can go first. I think for me, it's really just about when I was initially learning. It was really about just relationships and being able to do my job well. It was a very personal thing for me where I wanted to learn for myself, but so that I could be better at my role and be better at serving in my role and in just in the society where I was living. To be honest, now that that is still a motivation, but now I am very motivated for my kids to learn, for my kids, to learn proper Hindi and to be able to continue this, I guess, legacy of being able to speak Hindi. My husband has very, very good Hindi. Very interesting. I mean, he, you know, grew up in Bihar and he has Bihar, has get gets bashed all the time for their way. They speak Hindi. They drop a lot of the gender markers and people basically say that they speak, you know, hillbilly Hindi. However, he can speak the hillbilly Hindi just fine. But there's also an incredible connexion to Sanskrit, and people are using these these words, which a lot which have been dropped in, you know, the large metropolitans long ago. So there's this incredible depth and amazing, you know, historic connexion with Bihari Hindi, which I find to be very beautiful.

Jess: [00:55:13] And so I have, you know, I've learnt how to style Hindi in people on my Instagram and make fun of me all the time like, Oh ma'am, do another reel and, you know, be Bihari Hindi, you know, do you know Bhojpuri? You know, mentally, there's several other languages in Bihar which influence Hindi. And so I dabbled in those a little bit. And but I think the the thing that really motivates me is for myself now, for my kids. And then thirdly, I also really want other people to be able to learn fluent Hindi. I think that there is so much about India which needs to be told or needs to be understood by the larger world, and I think that Hindi can unlock a lot of that as well as other Indian languages. But I'm really passionate about about that. And again, I don't want people to learn from me those things. I want people to learn from native speakers, those things. So that's kind of my shtick. That's one of the things I'm really focussed on in 2022. My on twenty twenty one on my show, I had all South Asian guests on giving their perspective on different things. And now in twenty twenty two, I'm going to be focussing on Indian languages and in really pushing forward in creating more resources. In that vein?

Kerstin: [00:56:30] Yeah, I like that both of that falls under the umbrella of invisible India. It all comes together very, very nicely. So invisible India. This is also your chance. Please give your podcast. Not just a plug, but tell me more about what is the impact that you wanted to have.

Jess: [00:56:46] Sure, I really want to encourage people to dig in and to learn more about India from the I don't want to say the right sources because everywhere is a source, but really indigenous sources. I don't want someone to tell me what India is like. I want to. I want other people to who are Indian to to tell their version of what India is like. Of course, I want to help people who are in cross-cultural relationships as well, which is one of the things that I'm also doing with the podcast. But I also really want to focus in on language and in getting in getting that part because I think that's a unique contribution that I can make there. There are many, many, many, many, many people married to Indians who are not from India. But I think there's not as many who have been able to fluently learn the language of their partner or other languages of India, and being able to do that and explain how they did it and how it can be done by others and kind of not replicate the process, but helped guide and encourage others to go in that process. So that's what Invisible India podcast is about. I'm on Instagram, I'm on Twitter, I'm on TikTok, and then my podcast can be found on YouTube, on Spotify, Apple Podcasts. Basically, everywhere podcasts are phone.

Kerstin: [00:58:10] That's it. Wherever you're listening to the Fluent Show right now, you can probably find invisible India. Mm hmm. Eliza, what about you as an Instagrammer? First of all, your Instagram is @eli.kutty, right?

Eliza: [00:58:25] Yes. So that's that's a pun. So Eliza is my name that my friends call me, you know, it's what I go by. And when I was living in the UAE, a group of people, they started calling me Ellie and my tamir friend told me, Oh, Ellie, that means rat. And I'm like, Oh, no, like, that's terrible. She goes, No, if you add 'kutty', which means like little, it makes it cute. So yeah, eli.kutty Is little rats or a rat girl, however you want to interpret it. Yeah. So that's me. Or on YouTube. I also post cross post across different platforms. So YouTube channel is Learn Malayalam with Elikutty As well as on Facebook. And you know, I stay motivated because my work helps me, and it also has an impact on a lot of people. I started out just to make my own notes and to get feedback from the community, and it kind of just blossomed into something I didn't set out to say. I'm going to start this page to bring my attention to Malayalam. I'm not going. It wasn't. It wasn't anything like it is now. I always joke. I'm an accidental content creator. I didn't know how to edit videos. I didn't know how to make posts. I didn't know how to do voiceovers. I didn't know anything. I just took a notebook and a pen, and I just made pretty stuff like I saw in hashtag studygram and I thought that was cool and it grew. And I think it was the messages that I was getting from people who are Malayali but grew up outside of Kerala or people like me who marry into, you know, a Malayali family. Or, you know, there's just so many different people who resonated with. And that's what keeps me motivated is that, oh, my work means something to someone, and it's really cool and it is a bit harder these days. I recently got a promotion. I have a new position working as a director. I'm opening up a school here in Vietnam.

Kerstin: [01:00:21] Okay, congratulations.

Eliza: [01:00:24] Thank you, but it's extremely demanding. So like lately, my posts have just been like, really fun, like relevant, relatable content and less educational content. And I really hope that once I get into the swing of things here, I can start making more meaty content again because there's just so much to show, so much to to learn and so much to do. And I think that and this happens in a lot of languages, you know, people will say, Oh, X is the most difficult language to learn, like, Oh, Hungarian is the most difficult European language. People be like, Malayalam is the most difficult Indian language, blah blah. And this kind of has a like. I understand people say it as kind of like a point of pride or challenge, but it also like motivates people from learning the language. And I think that if I make the content that kind of bridges it and makes it seem less intimidating and more accessible, I think that's doing a good bit of service. You know, for the people who are interested in learning or feel like they can't learn, they can see that you know this Madama from America is making funny videos talking about ways to say no and Malayalam, and you know, they can they can do it to.

Kerstin: [01:01:35] I can only I can only agree on the old, the so-and-so is the hardest language to learn every single time someone goes like, I'm learning, like I usually say, I'm learning Welsh because I'm learning Welsh, and then people are like lots of hard language to learn and I have to watch myself so I don't go into my five minute, you know, I'm standing on a chair rant about how there are no hard languages and it's all in your head and blah blah blah. Because it's just like if you tell yourself it's hard. Sure, it's hard. If you don't tell yourself it's hard. It might not be as hard as you think, but oh, it's yeah, it's not. It's not good. In a party conversation, I've had to learn the hard way

Eliza: [01:02:12] To drink your water and mind your own business

Kerstin: [01:02:14] Moment. Yes. And so is it's so is now. I'm going to I'm going to come to a close as much as I don't want to, but I think I think we'll we'll cut this. We'll cut this episode and maybe have you on in the future again, for more questions and more stories and more language learning experiences. So first of all, let me thank both of you, first of all, for being available over this weird time zone situation that we've got going on here. So we've all done. We've all done very, very well at your own shoulders and for sharing so openly and sharing so honestly your experiences and in a wider sense, for your dedication to the languages that you're sharing, the mission that is sort of bringing you, you know, to being on this podcast and sharing this. Now I have a closing question that I really like to ask my guests, and that is for both of you. If there was one thing that you could change about the language learning world you live in, so either your own personal experiences or what you see, how languages are being learnt. What would it be? And Jessica, I'm going to put you on the spot first.

Jess: [01:03:27] Sure, I I alluded to this a number of times, but I would say, you know, just learn from native speakers. I wish I could change the the aspect that and Eliza and I have talked about this before if, oh, look at this great foreign person who's learnt the language so well and and look at her and you know, she's an elevating this wonderful, especially her and I were all white here. So there's wonderful white person that's learnt our language, and let's make a big deal about that and and put her on a pedestal. I think, you know, they're pointing that back to people that, OK, that's great. Thanks for acknowledging my hard work. But there are so many Indians that actually helped me to learn, and without them, I could not have done any of this. And so pointing it back to the the native speakers who helped me to learn the people that invested into me and the the friendliness and just the willingness to teach a language that's not something that happens around the world, everywhere. And so I think that's the one thing I would like to change is and that's one thing I'm trying to accomplish with my page very imperfectly. With my my Instagram, with my podcast is, Hey, let's focus. Let's really figure out ways that we can turn the attention from the white lady speaking Hindi to the actual processes and actual cool things about the culture that we can. We can learn that we can. We can share that we can. We can really learn from and grow. And so I don't know if that makes sense, but I think that's part of what I'm really would love to see change. And I think the tide is starting to turn that way. Yeah, but it is easy just to make a little flashy page and put all the attention on yourself. That's easy, and so many people do that and it drives me insane, but it lives on the same page with this one. But that's my that's my that's my complaint.

Kerstin: [01:05:37] What do you say that this is as a stronger symptom or a strong tendency to happen, particularly when you're learning in a former colonial country?

Jess: [01:05:50] Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Eliza: [01:05:54] That's that's the one thing on my page as well. Like, yes, I do a lot of educational content, but most of the time when people in the comments are like, Where can I learn? I have my hand full of Malayalam teachers that I tag, you know, I always tag, you know, these really great creators that are, you know, not really well known across social media, but they're the ones who can actually lend their time and service to properly learning. And like Jessica says, you know, you do get that attention and you do get that platform. So it's really good that you can use it to funnel it toward the people who really need it. And we give them that space. You know, we we kind of allocate it to that

Jess: [01:06:35] So that

Eliza: [01:06:36] More of the community gets what they should have, you know, which is the time and attention. Mm hmm. And yeah, so I agree with Jessica and that that I mean, it's great that we get support for what we do. But you know, behind every foreigner speaking in Indian language is a community of Indians that helped her get there.

Kerstin: [01:07:00] Yes. Yes. That's beautifully said and well, well shared, absolutely. So we've already shared with both of you can be found. But just to sum up, first of all, you will be able to find a profile for Jess and a profile for Eliza. And that's going to be Fluent Show slash two three two, where they're both listed as special guests. This is episode two three two, and that's also where I'm going to put links from the show notes and anything interesting that I can find. And you can find Eliza primarily on Instagram at @eli.kutty. And you can find Jessica wherever you get podcasts under the Invisible India podcast. Now, the sign off on the Fluent Show is I say it's goodbye from me, goodbye, and I get my guests to say goodbye in any language of your choosing so you don't have to choose the languages we've just spent an hour talking about. You could do it in French if you want to, but please choose a language and say goodbye with me together. So listeners, thank you so much for listening to the Fluent Show. As I said, you can go to Fluent Show two three three to find all the information, show notes and profiles that are related to this episode. And with that, thank you so much to my wonderful guests and it's goodbye from me. Goodbye. It is goodbye from Jessica Kumar.

Jess: [01:08:23] {in Hindi}

Kerstin: [01:08:24] And it is goodbye from Eliza Keaton,

Eliza: [01:08:27] {in Malayalam}

Jess: [01:08:29] Oh, thank you, guys, thank you so much. Thanks so much, Kerstin.

Eliza: [01:08:33] Thank you so much for having us.

Kerstin: [01:08:36] Thank you for listening to the Fluent Show. If you enjoyed this episode, please support the show by subscribing for new episodes and leaving a rating and review in your podcast app. You can visit us at fluentlanguage.co.uk anytime. Don't forget that you can send us your questions and feedback to hello at Fluentlanguage.co.uk, or you can find the show on Twitter and say hello over there. It's at the Fluent Show and on Instagram. It's hashtag The Fluent Show. We're always happy to hear from you, and we read every message and review. See you next episode!