00:00:12.350 Carry me. For Will. That's what I got. Okay. Okay here we go. Episode Three. I'm in the driver's seat and it's more pressure. Let's start with Darcy's hat.

00:00:29.830 Yeah. I have a hat on. She does. It's beautiful. I'm sure I'll put a picture of this on Instagram and Facebook. So if you want to see it go check it out. It's a vintage I can say vintage right. Totally and definitely from if not the 80s the 90s I kind of think I'm pulling it off. Am I getting a warped perspective on how here. I don't hate it and the fact that you have a black t shirt on like it kind of Yeah yeah maybe you wanna borrow it.

00:00:57.400 This is maybe the best I've ever looked at a beret so it's a red beret with music notes on it. Yeah. So my mom was a music teacher until she retired and I 100 percent guarantee this was a gift from my student. They're like what a music teacher once a music notes beret. Your hats are still available for sponsorship. We hadn't realized I guess that Episode 2 wouldn't have played before we recorded this one. So no one's even had the chance to sponsor a hat yet.

00:01:28.600 We didn't have an episode. Well I'm sure once we posed two and then this one the offers are gonna be flooding rolling again. Again no hat to ugly and next September I will wear any hat that you pay me to wear on this audio only podcast. But I had on is that I'll do my best to get it on Instagram or Facebook or somewhere. Yeah sponsor a hat. And you can e-mail us at no concept pod at g mail dot com.

00:01:58.210 For more information. Thank you very much. Okay. Continue. Okay. So like when we decided to do this. Something that I learned this week something that my mind. It seemed like oh yeah that would be easy. Hands down the hardest part of the podcast. Yeah. Something we learned this week. And I think part of it is I'm just still not in the habit of trying to keep track. Yeah tell me about it. So I actually did. This time I screenshot it. A friend sent me a text and was like there is one.

00:02:28.400 Got it screenshot it. So yes I have one. Woo hoo. Do it. OK I have one. Only three episodes in. Yes we can sell Wahoo occasionally. I'm her. So my thing that blew my mind this week is it's a little out there. Darcy Do you know why they are called testes. I have no idea. In ancient times. You know how I like it. We swear under oath.

00:02:58.420 You put your hand over your heart. Yeah. In ancient times they put their hands over their genitals and they and so did testify and it was like. That's why I became testes huh. Yeah. FASO I don't know. I mean it also makes me wonder. So probably you know women just were never expected to swear anything under oath because they're just women. Yeah right. It didn't matter like it. No. Yeah. And it was moving on from that. I'm sure that a fun fact with people.

00:03:28.340 At the weekend pretty sure. Testify testify. Oh boy I'll never think of that the same. Can you imagine in court standing up and you know that boy oh boy. So mine also comes from a screenshot. All right let's get sponsored by screenshots. So did you know that Taylor Swift enters and exits buildings in boxes.

00:03:58.210 For security reasons. I mean it doesn't surprise me. I would say maybe her own house but maybe but the story that I heard was she was checking out a house to buy in New York and they wheeled her in in a crate went up the elevator.

00:04:15.460 She stepped out of the crate looked to the apartment got back in the crate put her back on the dollar her staff wielder a love I can do it a little get in there is it lit I my heart is impossible no one's inside the great but I know that her staff and I've been a personal assistant before you do some degrading thing right but never have I wield a boss so Taylor what's in the box testes testes are huh. Where do you think.

00:04:45.820 Where is the weird thing. Yeah but the facts. Yeah. So noted. So that's what we learned this week hyper intelligent. That's what we got. That's why we call this segment something we learned this I guess. OK so just diving right in here giving a good segway. Oh no. So Darcy. Yes. Have you ever seen the documentary that came out a few years ago. Blackfish. Oh my God I haven't seen it. Oh I was just gonna be really good.

00:05:17.000 Do you know what it is dealing with. Wait does this okay. Does this have anything to do with killer whales. It does. Okay. Is this more about SeaWorld. SeaWorld. Yeah. I got my Facebook friend that used to work at SeaWorld. Oh and she changed her profile picture to a filter that said I stand with SeaWorld. And oh wow like what I have seen the documentary SeaWorld does not come off in a good light. Yeah totally.

00:05:46.910 You watch that and you think there's no way that someone now walks away and holds their head high and says SeaWorld great. So that's why I don't have a concept of how you defend SeaWorld. So I guess we're going to find that out. This is this is gonna be confrontational. I hope not. OK. I feel like the goal we can all hear each goal is going to be just to talk about it. I mean obviously none of us are.

00:06:16.040 I'm not going to accuse Jaimee herself of being. And then you write the whale and the trainer and it's you and it's your fault. Yeah. No that's not not the goal. I just I really feel like it's going to be educational I hope. I think it's really interesting that I grew up Prime. Free Willy age. Like we had the VHS. We watched it at least weekly. They had the VHS. So I think there's a lot of romanticizing of that.

00:06:47.300 Well I guess that's. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe this sort of concept already is baked into us. I think that SeaWorld is bad like maybe we're predisposed to think it before even seeing it and I mean I don't know. Yeah okay I think this is a really interesting topic and I'm gonna just be furiously googling stuff until I get here. All right. Our guests are here. Our first guest is Jamie Smith. You. Another. Name on Facebook.

00:07:17.810 Ferguson actually took it off. Yes sir. Yeah. OK. And then I also have one of my oldest friends Roxanna fees here. True. So I got her last name although not seen in years. Well we just call her the fox. She doesn't like it but her nickname is the fox. I mean nickname to you to me that's really all that matters. Maybe if you guys want to just tell us a little bit about yourselves outside of your name that I just shared. And your favorite nicknames. My other first I'm Roxanna fees.

00:07:48.980 I'm a science teacher. I just finished teaching my eighth year of science. Out in Morel Nebraska. Tom for six years and Gilmer Nebraska before that and I really love it when you and Kay love that too. They study science out there. How did you get them to study it at least biology have a let's just cover this one and nothing else.

00:08:21.470 Yeah. And Jamie I. My name's jamie. I am currently a librarian slash science teacher slash volleyball coach at Ainslie and slash coach's pitch coach. Yes. Yes. And now I do a little bit of everything. And I am a current SeaWorld employee of 15 years so I grew up in employee went to school Texas seeing them whatever I ended up at SeaWorld and my husband and SeaWorld in no way just kind of hit the point where about 5 years ago we want to move back home closer to family.

00:08:58.790 So you met your husband at SeaWorld Yeah. Tell us about that. In the same department. Oh yeah. You're like I like your wetsuit. You actually really good with his hat. When we would work feline through my grades I remember yeah. Now it's about 20 years and he's about five years longer than I was and then he ended up splitting our departments in where he worked at a pet and I worked with the dolphins and so we just. So how are you a current SeaWorld employee in Nebraska.

00:09:30.260 Yes I was curious about that too. Yeah yeah. Former I was to you I was like does she work for him Larry good guy. I know I was sorry. Former SeaWorld employee I was a senior. You were there for 15 years and then it's been five years since you. We moved back in 12 so six years or so right before Blackfish. Yeah. Yeah. Well OK.

00:09:56.620 So I guess I just want to give a little bit of my takeaways from the film. So it begins and there's a lot of other stuff but they show all the really old practices where like in the 70s where they would go out and they show this you know old man with his like beard he looks like an old like the the man at the old man and the sea was written about this guy.

00:10:22.920 Yeah white hair was like the long like Fu Manchu kind of mustache and beard and he's wearing like a sweatshirt with the sleeves cut off. You can tell he doesn't smell good. He was one of the people that in the 70s was catching these whales and so they talk about how they would go out there and they'd catch him in the nets and they try to outsmart him and the whales were smarter than the humans. Yeah. And then they still catch him and then they're taking these babies away and the other families the more like the the adult whales stay and cry rather than swimming away because they're crying out for their.

00:10:58.660 It's basically like if I'm kidnapping Georgie and I have a baby gate between us and you can't get to her like you're not gonna run away you're gonna stand there and yell at me or if you go up on a farm it's like weaning cattle. Right. Yes. Yeah. It's just you know. That's right. Yeah. Compared Devil's devil's advocate. And then they talk about slightly smarter whales unintentionally were killed and they cut them up put gravel inside rocks and stuff instead and sank them. And that's the point where this guy was like oh maybe this isn't good.

00:11:29.920 It was like when the whales are crying like if it took you that long. But so eventually Washington takes day says you can't come here anymore. Then they started getting them in Iceland and then really the main part of the film is about this one whale named Tilikum. Am I pronouncing that right utility until. OK. Who was originally owned by it was sea were sea late inland sea land. And you confuse the sea.

00:11:56.590 It was like ghetto SeaWorld like it's like a big marine park with a little bit of a net like they do their shows in the ocean at night. He was captain like a steel ball floating rate too. It was various other older whales that bullied him. Yeah I know. So. And they talk about rakes which is where they drag their teeth down the little whale's body and sometimes it's blood sometimes it's just sores.

00:12:28.390 And they said sometimes it has their whole bodies would be covered in these rake marks. Oh and the. They were the way they trained them was they'd be trained together so if he didn't do the behavior they wanted they'd punished both whales. So that's where the bullying came in because they didn't get their fish because he didn't do what he was supposed to. Also how you teach kindergartners so true. So there's no good rules in Geneva.

00:13:00.770 No. Punishment or one person the bad dude. Right. And then and then at night they were Captain I mean to me it looks like like a steel shed that you had in your leg up on a farm. Know it's in the water and there's Captain there's so like two thirds of their day sometimes they're in this tiny little pool 20 by 30. Well I mean like the equivalent like a cattle shoot to a cow. It would sort of think that I wasn't there.

00:13:27.300 It was varies heck all night in the dark and even move around there are big holes in the point of the medals is for medical pristine or not you might swim in the hanging. So this is the environment in which he was raised. And he's also a very large whale on top of the fact that all of this has happened. So he's traumatized has a terrible. Life. I don't know. Eventually they have a trainer is killed at sea land.

00:13:59.710 So when that happens sea land basically closes and they're like we're out of this. This was a bad deal. We're not doing this right. Bad press so they sell Telekom or Tilly to SeaWorld. At that point right. The other one and according to the documentary and say that when they sold land seal and sold it to SeaWorld it was with the understanding that he would not be used in shows because they thought there was a risk that this would be repeated and that he was primarily going to be for breeding.

00:14:31.300 So the trainers there say that when then when Tilly went off to SeaWorld they thought like he's going to Disneyland. I think they stay on it like he like you know here and have this great new life. Everything better they know what to do with you so they take him to SeaWorld. He is bred quite a bit. They stayed in the film that he's were responsible for like 50 percent or 50 percent of all of their collection of whales is somehow related to him.

00:15:02.070 The bill the bullying I think kind of continues. There is a lot of times with women is that women feeling now. Yeah. Limiting whales throat just come female and there I mean females are dominant with cetaceans. Yeah. And then eventually what this what this film is primarily talking about is that eventually dawn brand show is killed in 2010 and again in a show in front of people.

00:15:33.700 College Park there wasn't dining a dining event at Sarah I know I don't really know. So it was like kind of a show. It was more like hey you can show up and watch her. It wasn't a live show but there's there's people there. Yeah. And there is another death. Did I get his name. No because he was a transient. Some of it devalues life. But he wondered like Berlin or something right. Actually the one I was talking about though is the one in the park or yeah which wasn't telecom.

00:16:05.500 No but it was another one. I don't remember his name. There's another SeaWorld train. Yes. And it wasn't a SeaWorld park but they basically loaned out there whale leader and he was killed. By a whale. So and then win Don brand show was killed SeaWorld first said it was because she made a mistake and then the footage shows that what they tried to say it didn't work.

00:16:35.990 Then they said it was because she had her ponytail and then he grabbed her ponytail and then they say other. Everyone had a ponytail as they're trained to be desensitized to it. And so I mean if you watch this documentary you're sitting there thinking like Rodolfo. Right. Like how is this still open. I can't believe people take their families there you know. So I guess let's just let's just dive in. OK.

00:17:03.320 I have some questions but I feel like you probably have some things I guess the one thing I maybe want to start with how you ended up working at SeaWorld. I thought I want to be a trainer. That's one thing about SeaWorld is theirs. Animal training. Well there was. Now they're kind of together. When I was there there's animal training and animal care and to be honest SeaWorld might not love me for this. But when you're a trainer You're a beautiful tall or gorgeous Disney. You are the people on stage.

00:17:33.550 Yeah. And I could have passed the swim tests like nothing. I was. I've always been a bigger girl. That was hard. But I wasn't gonna be hired as a trainer. I'm not stupid. So I immediately just set my sights on animal care which I think in the end I mean I love my job. I loved every single minute of my job I feel lucky to have had my job. Went through some controversies clearly but that's how I ended up there and spent 12 years and three.

00:18:00.980 I told the 15 year that I remember I got three kids and got some broke moms got so many adventures like I still throw things I've been teaching for. Five years six years and Ainsley and I'll throw the story now and and then and they're like I'm like oh you ever heard that one yet. So things that nobody in their life will ever get to. A lot of people won't get to experience right. I'm going to cherish that and my kids got to do a lot of things like I still tell them they have their own dolphins when I would name a dolphin I was like that was you're like my son.

00:18:33.860 So it's because he has dolphin Chi and he passed away like a year ago at the age of 52 or something. So it's just it was amazing. But family came. You had a grandma that was a little sick and missed my parents and so it was hard to live for our. But it was time. It's a horror. And you didn't bring a dolphin with you or. No I tried. You have an honor and I tried to get an otter on the box otter box. That's not a thing.

00:19:04.670 This episode is not brought to you by the outer box but if you contact us. There you go. I know you do have to be like to be a to get to work in the marine mammals at SeaWorld. You kind of go you start your job. You take what they'll offer you. It could be food service. I started as an educator which basically means you stand around the pools and talk to the tourists superfine. That would be the best at a job opening came around what they did was they opened it to internal and you would apply.

00:19:35.480 And so I actually spent a year working with the Penguins and the bird and the like exotic birds like parrots and stuff which terrified me. Oh I didn't like it. I was terrified of a bird phobia because I am OK. But those parrots that they would laugh at me I've got to go. The parrots cane and then the people with my hands with that problem. OK. And then I applied and got in the animal care. So it just took took me out a year and a half to move up into my animal really in the big scheme of things that's not that.

00:20:07.190 No I like it or putting it off like Darcy knows you pay your dues and how long did you pay your dues in the industry. Well it reminds me a lot of what I did because I went to college for broadcasting and then we went home one Thanksgiving and knew it was it for me and cried and cried and cried and looked and I knew I wanted to get into film and how absurd that was in Nebraska and then Lupton figured out how to do that. And then you know kind of beat the odds and got into this industry that I always wanted to be. And so it reminds me a lot of a story and feels a lot like that to me.

00:20:37.730 And also then kind of breaks my heart to be like this thing that you loved and did and were so gutsy to do then to have to deal with all this backlash with it just so I Eddie I really I don't really it doesn't bother me to have healthy discussions about it because if you honestly I wish it maybe in the future we'll do another one I'm bring my husband we actually have a very different viewpoint. Well I should have I didn't think has been working there. But he you could have brought tell him to get into later on.

00:21:05.500 Oh we don't agree on a lot of the world and I. That's fine. I don't mind but I. Because I know I was there. I know and I know what I did every day. And I know how much I cared. I remember I probably how many nights I cried over animals being sick or Drood and like my favorite dolphin in the whole wide world I remember walking in one morning and he had died. He's probably like we're over 50 and I just beholden. So. Oh. So I don't. It's okay to have a discussion doesn't it.

00:21:35.090 Yeah I do get angry at the blatant lies out there. Well we don't believe in agreeing to disagree. So we're gonna fight it out. All right that's fine. So Roxanna do you maybe want to share your experience with Blackfish a little bit. I thought it was super depressing because this documentary to Katie. I was like and just before you get started there is no way if you have not been in the industry and seen Blackfish that you could not have been negatively.

00:22:07.370 Yeah I'm sure there is no way. Hey you're not gonna watch that movie and be like it didn't seem that bad. No that's just like I'm sure there's all kinds of PETA documentaries about farming and ranching that make people hate that to things that are even like mine. You know they are made to make you see there's something there's a desired emotional response. I guess I just my.

00:22:35.320 Impression of it is they're so stinking smart and you can't just tell how stinking smart they are. But they have extra part in their brain that we don't have. It's over here over there. Yeah I can see holding my hands behind my ear probably on the left side. That's where the extra brain root to see my graph where it's like humans. Chimpanzee dog institution like they're of the fourth smartest species it's all cetaceans in the world.

00:23:04.840 I don't know I don't know. That's like colonials and dolphins. OK. The condition is it's part of the Sierra. Nancy OK yeah. And like what really struck me is when they talked about how different pods have their own dialects and languages and so you're just basically you know taking these animals who don't even speak the same language and expecting them to interact in a useful way. And I just I'm like OK. So if they took me and somebody who speaks only Spanish and somebody who only speaks German like here's your and family.

00:23:37.060 Yeah like the Tower of Babel and they're like OK well I guess a gesture like food like should we eat now. Lay down take nap. Oh like how that like it would be a very very frustrating situation to be in in general.

00:23:55.300 And I just when Osama got involved it seemed like there's like oh well there's you act like this is an isolated incident but you have also documented this happened and this happened in this happen and this happened and it seems like there hold the ocean's whole take on it was trying to protect the trainers and make sure that they're safe. Yeah I from my perspective I'm more like but should these guys even really be. Should this even exist. Yeah.

00:24:24.790 Yeah even be in captivity you know. I mean and I feel the same when I go to the zoo and I see the gorillas in the ring and tans I'm like Cash they look so bored like I saw. At the Omaha as you said going back to primates. This orangutan like puke and eat it. Yeah like 10 times in a row and I was just like those are staring at us. They are bored. And it was it's a pretty new thing to have been recognized early in the animal field.

00:24:55.610 OK. So let's just dive in. I mean do you want to. Is there certain areas or do you want I I could talk for days so why don't you leave it. I was going. So what animals. You were an animal care is there different departments by animal. You mentioned you worked with. Why and animal care and what animal Care's job at the time was is we were basically the veterinary technicians of all mammals in the park.

00:25:22.390 So anytime animal is sick or pregnant any mammal otter walrus sea lion Hawaiian monk seals harbor seals Pacific bison dolphins bottlenose dolphins killer whales and blue guys we would come in and do the medical procedures on them. So that actually was super cool because you got the opportunity to work with the right species in the park. I'm pregnancies we were in charge every time a marine mammal was born we were on 24 hour watch and we were on call 24 hours a day 365 days.

00:25:54.010 So let's dive into the breeding aspect. I mean just as a place to start. So so they do breeding in the Texas one or was it they. Yeah I do it every year. Yeah. Yeah I think they're breeding practices. Do they have to change those. I can't remember. Yeah they did they. Oh yeah. Now fingers. Oh sure. I'm not gonna as I write a lots of things that I was exposed. Yeah. They have ceased reading of killer whales.

00:26:20.890 What happens was there is breeding kind of like we can related to cattle. You have one ball so you on one ball and after so many years you've had. Several babies and now your babies are probably mature enough to have babies of their own. So they're all a little. Yeah. So what we will do is we would come in and do animal transports and we would move animals around the country but there was part of it. Like the way that they got the sperm from the whale and that's where that stopped was the animal movement because it cost thousands and thousands of dollars sort of killer whale.

00:26:53.830 I mean one of the transplants they got was like 40 hours long. I didn't sleep for four days they want you to say I am. I always thought I'd done the way that they did it was somehow criticize wasn't it a documentary they did and the like that it was Blackfish but the way they had to hold on was that on the CBS thing that they talked about. It's the same thing as a cow. I mean I I wondered I watched it is it like I knew I ate hog or a cow or they had to train them first of all to be linked to feel certain. Yeah.

00:27:23.560 And they want to leave the training the females. Yeah. Yeah. Female What I would do is I would male to roll over like this. SB was this they would roll over I'd tap on their side. They would do a present. You take a bag you get the sample word up you go freeze it they send it and they spin it out and then we'd send it to wherever in the world needed a semen sample so we could use it.

00:27:48.190 So and I don't I don't understand why they tried to bring that into main negative because of anything you can't find negativity in my mind is that if we if they refuse the thing about training dolphins and whales to me was if they refuse you just can't do it. We didn't withhold food from them. Yeah. That's a lie. We might have walked away from the pool at that time and then you go back 10 minutes later you go and do another behavior kind of like they have a base they have to hit every single day like you can't withhold food from them.

00:28:20.860 So I don't know where that ever came from I think the part that they portrayed as the most negative in the CBS documentary was that they had to like blow air into the uterus. They said it was very painful. I don't know how it was removed because they would just lay there. I mean I even I was involved in intimidating numerous dolphins and I don't. I mean I feel like if an animal is in pain it's going to do something right. I just lay there so like I said it's not like you're holding them down.

00:28:51.250 I mean what do you mean I can't say they didn't feel pain. I'm not a dolphin you know. I feel like the weight training I don't know how to big job. Well I mean I do very much you all just take the one little I get. That you love. I'm sorry. Yeah. So that yeah that the harder you talk dolphins sorry I feel like the Blackfish film was if I was taking myself out of SeaWorld was decently made at least except for all the wires that were involved in it.

00:29:25.480 But at least the film is decently made. This latest light what was it called watchdog with whistleblower variable like John Hargrove never won an Academy Award without acting. He was so bad. It was just awful. It felt like he was trying to read like he's trying to get fame from this. It was never known while I was there as a bad trainer. He had a bad attitude but he wasn't a bad trainer. So the fact that he made a mistake and got moved and threw a hissy fit like I lost all respect.

00:29:56.920 Can you go into that. Like what what mistakes are you referring to. Well Sammy was like super like we are highly human I want this is a lot of people that sounds like we have very strict safety protocols. Yeah I'm sure safety protocols. And one of them is we have a staff of maintenance divers that dive all the pools and keep them clean. God bless their souls. They work very very hard to be the hardest working people at heart. And that's a job and shit. And so like Shamu I don't care exactly but I believe there's like when a gate shuts there's like a three step process like the gate has to shut.

00:30:29.890 You got a chain. You gotta lock it yeah. You've got to do it like there's. And it's for the holders baby pool that because let's be real. I mean if I want to go back for a minute these are killer whales. I'm very aware that they have a name for a reason and so we're trying to keep people safe. Well he forgot one of those protocols and you don't do that. Him or another trainer got written up or I don't know if he covered for another trainer I wasn't there.

00:30:58.930 All I know is we came in work one day and like John and another I came from our trainer was got move to sea lion and the first thing is like the all the plant all the films on us that he got demoted. You know it's a demotion to work at sea lion. Trainers are awesome. Those are the funnest people in the park. I think you should feel very like your life's not in danger. I mean you work with walruses still right. Oh yeah yeah. But he got moved because of a safety violation. He threw a fit quick. Basically he didn't want to be.

00:31:29.110 He's a sure Moon trainer. He's too cool to be with sea lions. And that's where it all went bad. He quit. And then there was a film. Did you know any of the other trainers that talked in Blackfish. I knew Bridget very well and she's changed her stance. Yeah which is I don't know. I appreciate it. Yeah. She came out and said that she was tricked and Blackfish Bridget's super intelligent.

00:31:53.010 So if you add up the accidents and the like if you ever got on YouTube and looked up the facts of the trainers on that were on Blackfish like everything like the girl that they showed riding on the whale isn't even her. She never even did water where you have to be like you have to be a trainer for two or three years to even be allowed to do one little girl. The super curly Samantha Brown is her. She was never even a cow trainer in the law. They act like she's like the end all be all know your daughter work.

00:32:23.800 She was there for like less than a year. Oh so sorry of super off topic but that just reminded me of I'm clueless really like you're a virgin here. Can't. You see you're a virgin can't drive. I did more why I didn't even go to a waterway. So I didn't get it right. Really. I just I feel like goes inside the sea. The culture the old girls surfers I and like she didn't do water work.

00:32:54.360 What the heck. OK. So. A big question and I tried to Google this and there's not like a good answer that I can find a theory. The lifespan so it shows 18 million sound bites of every employee in captivity. They live as they live longer when they live longer in captivity. 25 to 35 years. But then if you look on Google sometime some say that females live until like in the film they say in the wild they live until like 80 like you them in lifespan and then.

00:33:26.670 But when I just googled it it does say it like it you could find any answer I could go out there and I could find one that said they live to 100 now and I think I could find them once I feel like they die at 7 and later on I agree I agree like trying to say a specific lifespan of any animal compared to wild activity to captivity. I feel like you can find anything. This is how I like it is reaching though for them to say that anything would live longer and kept well. I do think they live longer in captivity really is why you have.

00:33:55.500 Round the clock veterinary care you have access to antibiotics and medication. You have a team of people that will work every day of their life to save you in the wild you vaccinate you get an infection they're done. No I mean you have access to food like that every day. I mean it is things that they are cared for daily to counter that though in the wild they probably are getting a lot more exercise and say I'm making one hundred.

00:34:21.870 And the mental health aspect of it has gotta be I can just I can vouch for what I know like my are dolphins. The dolphins that I worked with are still there. Yeah they were in their thirties when I left. They used different dolphins. They're smaller and they can swim. I admire their quality of life is a little bit better more birdies and who knows how much stress stresses previous life played. Yeah. Him being in.

00:34:48.960 That's a whole nother topic but like Haida when Haida passed away I think she was post 40 or 50 and have babies died. Yes well I mean. Also I realize that this is like way that I just said something about the mental health of a whale. No you're right. The other thing is that like there's some line to. Where. Okay. So this whale died 15 years earlier than it did before.

00:35:18.730 But how much did the world gain from knowing about the when they don't like it. I think that I'm a little bit maybe desensitized to that kind of stuff just from growing up in Nebraska. And the fact of that little that we raise cattle so that we can eat them. Yeah. Like yeah. So if if I don't know but I'm not sure that I can just say like let's go take that baby whale and then eventually it'll die. Both parents but I'm ending up in Nebraska. I think actually prepared me for a lot of stuff. So what about the dark. Is it called the dorsal fin. What's it called.

00:35:48.730 So most of the males in captivity like almost all of them. It's bent. But in the wild they're not. And it also shows a whole bunch of sound bites like 40 percent of the men that they show. That's actually nice because they've actually found pods of whales in the wild rather dorsal fins its gravity. If you have a dorsal fin that's eight feet tall at any time at the say something like it's just too sad to get so now. Never say it's all cartilage there's no bone it's going to flow.

00:36:19.570 That's like interesting underwater because if you're under water and they about like a lot of ponds that are not transient transient move thousands and thousands of miles and then they're resident pods a lot of resident positive swimmers far and so you'll find mentors dolphins and so. So it's more just because they're out of the water more exercise. Yeah. And it's a pedo thing. Oh sad fins he does look sad.

00:36:42.160 I guess I guess I get that narrative about the SeaWorld claim that they don't ever separate families and that they're in their pods and we know that that's not true but that they gave a couple examples of when and in nature the mother whale would stay with the young until the mom died.

00:37:05.180 They're always together and even if it's a female in captivity they say they kept their families together but they gave lots of examples where like ate for four and a half years old they would take the baby away because it was distracting distracting the show so the whale wasn't performing how they wanted it to. So can you talk to me about that. I don't think a baby was ever taken away because it was distracting. I can go on record and say that but I mean the record. Let the record show distract distraction. You are not a mother.

00:37:34.990 You're wearing your testes wouldn't you. Sorry. No way. They called testes. I don't because in ancient times rather than like being like I swear. So they cover their testicles and took an oath. It's for testify from the sandlot I testified. I'm not just making this up. This is not a random. This is from my reproductive physiology. No. It's always just like testes genitals.

00:38:05.620 You don't even do water yet. What is it Waterworld do. Water everywhere. It's comfortable saying water. OK. I'm I don't know what use the lies. Tell me the lie. Oh my God. Do you have a list.

00:38:33.400 Well I probably use a works like this. What do you get the most glaring lie. I think the most glaring lie is that we don't care about these animals and that we just are there other they're for the money. You know and you know and in the gist of things SeaWorld is a profit property organization. And I guess I didn't feel like that was the case. I feel like they all cared. I feel like they portrayed that the people the workers that maybe SeaWorld owners doesn't care. I don't believe that.

00:39:02.110 I mean some of my bosses were the most caring people they started this trainers. They moved up to being bosses. Yeah. You know I mean this is it. It's an incredibly caring organization worm. I think where I want to clarify one thing is like for me zoos and aquariums SeaWorld the Omaha Zoo everything are if you ask me are all wild animals better left in the wild and will they have a healthier life. Not healthier a better life. I'm always going to say yes.

00:39:34.360 We're building up on that in an educational sense and an entertaining sense and I know it just it bothers me that people are like release the whales to die. These whales have never punted. I don't know. We gotta go back and just release. They have had veterinary care since the day. They have no legal you see things you wear and who's paying for said see sanctuary where all the animals are going to die. You already killed poor Willy Free Willy.

00:40:04.660 The animal activists essentially killed him. So trying to wait is free really. A real story. I'm confused. No. What was free will is your name. Keiko. Yes killing Keiko. That's right. That's the book pneumonia. They died of pneumonia. This is what the Google Google run Google did. And how did it die. Well they made this beautiful aquarium in Oregon and then Naomi Rose.

00:40:31.200 Whatever animal activists crazy loony bin thing that she runs got them to make a sea sanctuary. Well so Mark Simmons was a SeaWorld trainer and they actually hired him along with some other people. I know I won't name them wasn't Marcus Edmunds in the film. Yeah yeah. He has brown hair. Yeah. A blue button down. Yeah. Is a former CEO. Yeah. So he went to Iceland in the stupid and basically spent a year I think or so with Keiko and they were trying to take him out and train him to be released to hunt.

00:41:02.100 And it sounds and they varied. It was not working like Keiko was not having any of it. He you've always just given even went out then go socialize with other whales in the area because Iceland's a big killer whale. And that's like the home where I had to go. When they showed up and they told Mark Simmons go home go yeah. So basically walked in to the helicopter boat. Yeah you're right.

00:41:28.740 He's the one I was primarily where he was his primary trying to make it work and they released Keiko Keiko shows up like I think it was in Norway or something like in a boat in a marina and like kids are riding in and petting him because he's the world's he's nice. He's a pet. And he basically dies of starvation because they thought it was smart because they weren't feeding him anymore. Like you can't do that you can't do that. That's what happened. Read the book Killing Keiko.

00:41:57.690 It's amazing how that song is so much sadder. So here's a question. So they discontinued the program right now for kilowatts for killer. Yes. So then are they having any kind of breeding program or do they go back to transporting or at this point there is no breeding. So you only whales that you have now. Are the ones you have and when they die there's no more whales in captivity. I would think I think I want to. Personally I feel like we'll be back to a breeding program in a couple of years. Personally I don't know.

00:42:27.240 Haven't talked to anybody. This is not from SeaWorld. This is on the record. Jamie from SeaWorld official news straight from SeaWorld. Like well how did you it. It just. Call me right. I feel just that's my personal. Yeah and they're not going to let the species die out. It's not going to happen. Well I mean you see they're not going to happen. OK. OK. And we all agree that like the ceiling and stuff was bad. Yeah. And ceiling wasn't.

00:42:57.270 I mean she tripped and fell in the pool. God bless her soul. And that was actually not the whale was it. But tell me what it was. I don't know if I think whether he is not that was telecomm that killed Fahrenheit. Yeah but the whales Denali dragger and she. She was in the shade tripped and fell in the water and they had not been water work train they had not been desensitized to people falling in and it was a toy. This person was a toy. Yeah I guess. Can we talk a little bit more about the Don brand show.

00:43:28.170 Because I feel like we kind of talked about it but we haven't. Yeah. So part of that. I mean first of all how terrible. I think they have like the nine one one calls and we're one of them says that like it would like a.. You're one of them like they're like did it come off and I know on it. No I'm going to honestly tell you that the autopsy report. I don't even know if that's a way to say it but the details were not shared with the employees.

00:43:58.130 I don't know. I knew there that day. Were you already there I was at work at SeaWorld in San Antonio. We got called in at 9 a.m.. Everybody sit down. This just happened in that way and then they were like and he still had it right. No they only they had. I don't know if at 9am. Maybe I'm saying that time had been in the afternoon. I don't remember. I just kind of a blur because it was like very rarely did you say get into the meeting room. Yeah I don't relate I'll be there in a second now.

00:44:25.420 Like I think I can remember like two times in my life that happened and done. And so like all the time and like a lot of the trainers in between the parks like the shame trainers them between the parks are very close. They talk long they Skype me and they communicate and like the Treasury balling and we're all like you. Yeah. Anything. She was a close friend to me. The trainers. But he did have her body for a while. Oh yeah. Yeah. They had to get him in. I know that they had to get him into the med pool and raise the lift bottom pool to get him to let go of the body.

00:44:58.550 But I don't. I can't. People are just there until they are cleared out the area but the trainers were there. Yeah yeah the trainers. All I know is one of my friends who I grew up with at 00 Tony who moved to Orlando and was a trainer that day. He did. Like as of when I was at zero. He still couldn't talk about it. But he still couldn't talk about it. I don't know details. I know that a death happened. Tell me about the ponytail thing. I don't know.

00:45:27.290 Here's my opinion with Don franchise I don't know why we have to place blame. It was a terrible horrific accident. She chose to work with killer whales and if I talked to Dawn rancher today. She'd still be working with killer whales if I could dial up like she is not. It was a terrible horrific accident. And what bothers me is we try and place blame. I do think Tilikum grabbed her ponytail and drag her in just because they're around ponytails every day doesn't mean one day it's not going to be like.

00:46:00.580 That looks interesting. But didn't SeaWorld try to place the blame on her with the ponytail. See and that's why I don't think they tried to blame her. I think they said this is what happened. I think a lot of people want to say that was a blame and that's just what happened. I don't know why it has to be a blame. It was just that I guess what I was trying to say is they tried to act like it was a like. I felt like it was them saying it was because of the ponytail. But then they show all these other people always having ponytail.

00:46:26.960 Yeah and I mean I think that the ponytail just cut Tilly's eye that day and I don't think SeaWorld was trying to save Don branch are you did wrong. But then then going forward they say OK female trainers now you must always wear your hair in buns. Yes. Yeah they do. Yeah. No that was that was you couldn't even do our work with dolphins anymore. You're hurt. I'll do what I know and but I it bothers me that there's a blame. I don't feel.

00:46:57.340 That SeaWorld blame her. Good job easy I feel statements. Yes. I don't feel that I feel like that was said to lead the public to be like SeaWorld says Don Brandt was a terrible trainer. No she was probably one of the best and I know they know that I know it. I kind of doubt it. A mistake was made. This well was from Kelsey and that leads me to another thing. When SeaWorld got Tilly it wasn't for I don't I believe that it wasn't for no shows.

00:47:26.560 It was no water work. He was always doing shows with people like outside right. Right. He was not ever to be allowed to have people in the water. Yeah. He was not I was not into the no show contract. It was no water work and he never did. She was laying down on the slide out to my understanding. He grabbed her ponytail some people say her arm a mistake was made. I don't think it was a blame. He's a wild animal. All right. The wild animal. It's just like having people who have wolves and lions for pets and also they get them you send it off.

00:47:59.380 It's a wild animal. Yeah. So what I I said Kelly Clark. Yes. That testified us to testify is the word of the day. Just we're gonna try. She said that OSHA lawyer was like Did you know he was capable of pulling. And I thought it was extreme but it was a good point. She said I know you're capable of rape and that all men are potential rapists which is true.

00:48:30.280 I mean it. Yeah. Am I going to say that like you could be a rapist. You could be a rapist. No. But yeah you're working with a whale a whale can pull you into the water. It's huge. And wait. Get a wastewater two times it was a human. I ask him how to read underwater Oh hot. Take a PSA of the day. You know I can't rely on you right now. Not working at zero day if I worked at 0 0 they would never say this on air like I've had my knee broken I have been rammed by a dolphin.

00:49:00.130 I have been bruised by a dolphin. I have been bit by otters. These are wild animals and we choose to put ourselves in. I have a sea lion. Oh my God. I just remember that about kill me. Thank you Brian Cox for saving my life. Shout out Brian. I thought I was gonna die that day and I was pregnant and I vividly remember thinking I was gonna die from a what kind of animal a California sea lion a male who is about 800 pound booty want to kill me. And he did. What did you do. I put my bucket of fish up and just kept dodging bites.

00:49:30.100 No I mean what did you do to me. Well I was very very key. Carl you told me he doesn't even do water work. You know what it was that all male sea lions are right. No I was just super comfortable with this male number one problem when you work with wild animals. That was being unfair. I don't know I feel like people who choose to do dangerous dangerous professions all across it.

00:49:58.680 You know you're choosing right and you know what you're getting entail. Do we ever. Do we try and prevent harm. Yes. Do we do the best we can. Yes. But there's some there are accidents. And you try to prevent it to the best of your knowledge and the best of your safety standards. And unfortunately we didn't it didn't happen that time. Right. It was very sad. She's a wonderful woman Roxanna. So clearly you don't put much credence in anything John Hargrove.

00:50:30.420 Oh my Lord. But I thought it was interesting. We wrote a book and he says that everywhere he goes on a book tour he has the same hecklers dealing the same things like do you think that something SeaWorld will love hiring a couple of people to go heckle book shows. I mean I know what my paycheck was. I just don't.

00:50:57.150 I mean I'm not going to say no because I'm I'm not going to go on the record and say that but knowing old Johnny boy I'm going to say no now he's like what someone in the background the old what. There they are. It's a conspiracy here. There they are. I think the best thing that SeaWorld ever did was honestly like almost we do this with the animals too and we're training. I mean give them neutrals. You don't want to punish animals when they don't do the right behavior.

00:51:24.900 You give them a neutral kind of like your kids you ignore it. You try again and I feel like the best thing that SeaWorld did was give John Hargrove a big fat neutral. We just kind of isn't that that what she did before she got taken in. So on the documentary they make it seem like he was frustrated because he did what he was supposed to do he didn't hear the whistle. He got this neutral he didn't get his fish and then they way. I think you're hearing that from that Samantha Byrne lady that never turned the day in her life. No I didn't even do that or.

00:51:54.470 No. And you go through it like here's how I remember things like right way back in college had to write a paper on. I don't remember exactly but it was kind of like animal memory and mine was dogs. Yeah and they like dogs don't retain punishment. What was it was like. Don't retain something going on for like more than like 30 seconds. Yeah I know that with dog training is negative. Don't do. Like 30 seconds.

00:52:21.390 And if you don't get it immediately. Like you if you were like No they're not going to remember that. It's just easier to ignore him. Dogs are smarter or less smart then well smarter than whales. OK so then I'm like Shit he's not going this will is not contained in my OP. This is Jamie Smith's opinion and my opinion is not guaranteed. And let's not give them anthropomorphic let's not anthropomorphize them. They're not humans. We're trying to give them human emotions. These are not human.

00:52:48.570 They're not capable of human Well that's why I think this all leads to two is what do we think animals are capable of. And that's what the documentary does try to do that though you can say that that extra part of their brain deals with emotion or emotions that humans that I don't personally buy that they're still animals. I mean you're a marine biologist and I've watched the documentary four times so I think I probably know more clearly.

00:53:17.430 But no I mean we could have humanized animals in any any animal like they're not human. There is a clear separation between animals and humans with emotions. And when we try and make animals have human emotions it's generally we're wrong. What about where they were taking the babies away. Then and they stay they might cry as a human emotion that's nature nurture and that's you're you're. You're raised to protect your young. All right. That's.

00:53:43.070 And and I've never been when they do that with cows when they win cows to cows. They know that they lose their minds but they don't stay there till they die and not even I mean. Right. But they. Yeah yeah yeah they they. It's allowed week to week and it's the same thing. They're gonna vocalize house sat there for years up and reach no cows or not. I mean obviously. But there was one story this was from the whistleblower one where there was one whale who was prone to seizures.

00:54:13.430 Yeah. And I thought that but I don't I don't know. Yeah. And they said that another whale would like always be between the seizure having whale in the wall so that he didn't hit the wall. I do. And I can't comment on that cause I don't know. Yeah. But I mean if that's true that's cool. I'm not saying that they can't. They don't have any emotion right. They're not like oh this woman just looked at me funny inside me. So I'm going to kill her. They don't have that mentality.

00:54:40.770 I do think dogs especially are very telling. There some you're a film in person. Yeah. But no no I just I feel like they. That's why I took out people. Did you watch the documentary right when it came out. Yeah. And you immediately just thought like that's wrong that's wrong that's wrong immediately. Because you and your husband go on a date and check it out no date. I watched it on because it came on on CNN. And Steven I watched it and I'll throw this out there shout out to Steve Smith.

00:55:12.540 He is adamantly against killer whales in captivity. He thinks that it's wrong. They should never be bred. So he won the sea sanctuary. No he got. He's he's smart enough to know you care ones that are there now and they're ones that are in there. Yeah. Would be done and I don't know but probably not. He wouldn't want the big water shows no hate just let them hang out you know maybe my best friend we would go to shows and we got off work and we'd be like if we did it I don't really go guy.

00:55:41.610 We love and I still like what I hear Jennifer Lopez's song like let's get loud. Like they play that beat ending up in the water. My husband is not onboard with that yet. He does not believe that the animals have that capacity in that size. And that's the other thing is like I will say the first time I had to go work on a set killer. Well I remember climbing down the bottom of a pool and be like Whoo.

00:56:09.570 These things are really big you know. It was a little overwhelming. You don't really understand how shy they are. I'm sure. Did you personally I like him. No I worked at Dolphin. So you didn't do any air. No. No but they train the same. Did you ever interact with him. No I only saw. I still use shows. I worked at Disney World one summer before I started at SeaWorld and so ads on it shows and then I did an hour killer whale transport that went from Florida to San Antonio to Florida and I had gone to Florida.

00:56:42.370 And so when we were loading whales in Florida I saw Tillie back there and he was kept in a pool. It's not that he wasn't socialized but he was such a low man like there is such a hierarchy of cetaceans and whales. And he was always for the giant. Well a low man. It's like a now the ones after the Omega. He was one of those nerd and so he was often left alone and that's for his safety people with his uncle eating and knows kind of for his safety it could be a little see you as always.

00:57:17.700 I know it probably was a little isolated. I mean he was. Yes I understand. He wasn't getting beat up. Yeah yeah I was kind of. But he was incredible. Like his wife. Well I just I cried. I remember what happened with him I can't remember. He just just died yesterday. He was very old. Which did you know. Fun fact here's the fun fact that. I don't I can't remember his name.

00:57:41.350 He was a veterinarian I worked with for semen collection was actually the veterinarian at SeaWorld who learned how to separate semen from female and male zygotes they used in trashing it that day. He was the inventor of masters who want to inseminate now in Nebraska with their they use his they used his method. This is that there's a lot of ethically questionable for humans category. Oh jeez. What I'd like to be able to take years even and say this is gonna be a boy animal.

00:58:13.660 Well they do it after your embryos. Usually they they fertilized the embryos first and then you can pick Oh so you can't grow out of semen state but you can't have that after. Yeah. Once you separate pretty I. That's fascinating. Yeah. He actually started that with SeaWorld and with dolphins and killer whales. Do you want more females. Females are more art more more trainable less aggressive. Yes. So I think yeah you just need enough male chicks not popular although you can. I mean at some point they're all related.

00:58:42.880 Right. Well is there inbreeding in males. Oh yeah. So there's like the special we try you try to prevent it but now with the I mean I know. I mean I don't know but I know that SeaWorld doesn't do business with like the shady people in China who are still collecting from the wild. But there are so many dolphins bottlenose dolphins throughout the rest of the world that you we will send the semen samples so you don't interbreed as much. Yeah. We're getting a mixed collection now.

00:59:13.850 It's been a try. That's something they talked about at the end of the whistleblower is that there's a lot of water parks and they're like growing more and more and more they are now on it. Right. And Russia ain't doing it right. Yeah. Like Russia as is Russia beluga. Where's Putin. Putin on that I can't see Putin or Putin. I always want to see you. I'll just call him Vlad. Voice blood on the Internet.

00:59:43.670 OK. So if our listeners are going to take away one thing let's start with Roxanna. What would you want it to be. My take away opinion is I still probably was with your husband and I feel like they're too smart to be in captivity in general. Obviously the ones that are in captivity can't be released. That's not safe for them.

01:00:05.630 But let's just let them live their life and die and then not catch it and then have that like this be this thing that we did for 50 years and yeah that we like a black sky and we're like travel shouldn't have done that but now we know. Yeah. Well like you see people like walk in alligators like that. Right. Maybe not. Right. Yeah. All right. How about you Jamie I mean what do you want. The one thing our listeners take away from this. What do I want my mom to know Nancy. Are you listening.

01:00:35.180 Well I think I might have to. The first thing I want you to know is what I wish everybody in the world now is. And it's taking me forty two solid years to get here is that there's always two sides. If you're watching any documentary that's like bad bad back. Make sure you go research the other side of it and form a solid opinion. And I feel like that wasn't done a lot.

01:00:58.010 Which I understand but you form a solid opinion and the other thing I think that you come away with is I have never met a group of people literally with fear of sounding a little bit like a tree hugger that cared about their animals and people more than anybody. Then SeaWorld I believe with all my heart believe in SeaWorld. It's a fantastic organization. Nobody's going to care for these animals better. Have mistakes made me in the past probably but we're hopefully learning from them a lot better and a wrap up than I am.

01:01:29.260 I think that's my takeaway is that sort of humans animals learning to live together is kind of this evolving thing and it has been throughout human history and like you know how long ago did we start learning about endangered animals. Not that long ago how long. Well I mean I think it's all kind of a learning process and we're somewhere in the middle of that. You know I agree. We will be for a while. OK. We also want I ask you we try to end our podcast. We want you to do a little bit of the work for us.

01:01:57.190 So do you have any ideas as far as like a good concept that we could look into an expert in something that would be good something big something that's fascinating to me. I've never had to deal with the health care system. I have had six months and. I have had a little kid like maybe a health care system talk from the people who know nothing. You got any ideas for icebox rocks. Oh minor nerdy. Well that's great.

01:02:28.270 Give us your best nerdy idea. Oh no no I'm too afraid. It's terrifying. I'm genuinely afraid of me and I love talking about climate change. I love talking about evolution. I like it when I use are just my guess every month. Let me get my coat on you guys. It has a lot to you by sight. I that would be an interesting one.

01:02:56.990 I don't need any other wrap up stuff we need to do at Darcy. To give away a lottery door. We didn't do it here. We did that at the beginning of it. I did a little pre recording. Oh sorry. Yeah. I didn't realize that was before he asked me to be here. OK. Do you think I'll ever work better out than this. I feel like. Well thank you guys. I'm so glad that. Well I was a little nervous. I'm like Is this going to be a fight. Are we going to be like one of us going to storm out. I feel like laughing about it.

01:03:26.090 Yeah but we're three for three on podcasts with women gas. Yes. It's gonna mix it up next. Next week two weeks from now we're having a man at the mike. This episode of the no concept podcast is sponsored by Woods in Durham. They are a full service accounting agency with two offices in Nebraska and three offices in Kansas one of which the Nebraska one not the Kansas one is run by my mother in the famous Cam Liukin. Yeah. I have no concept podcast fame.

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