Coté (00:00.566) Now we all know here in the EU, they're highly evolved. They've been, you know, going through time, fixing things up, really just taking care of business. But I got a piece of paper mail today. And so I wanted to ask you two, what do you actually get in your mailbox? Matt Ray (00:18.265) Oof. Brandon (00:19.72) Let's see, n notices, like some type of notice from the community, from maybe some type of business, a lot of junk mail. Coté (00:30.515) Notices. Okay, I like that category. Okay. Brandon (00:32.5) Christmas cards. Like I think that's pretty pretty much it. The occasional bill that, you know, for some reason is an outlier. He it doesn't have online or it's like a kind of just comes and goes, that that'll show up. That that's what I get. I don't know, Matt Matt, what what what do you get in Australia? Coté (00:34.91) yeah. Matt Ray (00:35.961) Re no n notes from realtors? Coté (00:45.537) Right, right, right, right. Coté (00:50.424) Yeah, what do they what are they what do the mailies give you over there? Matt Ray (00:54.299) Posties. Brandon (00:56.337) Of course. Matt Ray (00:58.539) y well, taking a look at yesterday's mail, s spoiler alert, I got myself a new router. I haven't hooked that that that was delivered by Oz Post. but I got I got a refrigerator magnet for a plumbing company and a refrigerator magnet for a realtor. that was it. So so basically it's it's people hustling for for you know their local businesses. Coté (01:08.939) Yeah. Coté (01:15.074) Whoa. Coté (01:20.408) Do you y it is is there is there a Coté (01:26.158) Is there a lot of refrigerator market magnet wait, refrigerator magnet marketing going on in in your neck of the woods there? Matt Ray (01:32.069) There is a surprising amount. Yeah. I mean I I I I I thought I was being humorous by, you know, putting them up on the refrigerator and then like we literally had you know a dozen or so and and I just threw them away 'cause I was like, what is the point of this? You know, they're what am I gonna do with six plumbers who I'm not gonna call, right? so so yeah, that that is a disturbingly large amount of my mail. Refrigerator magnets. Coté (01:47.0) Really? Coté (01:55.693) I don't think I don't think I have had a refrigerator magnet like, you know, advertisement since I've moved here. Or maybe even before that. I I don't know. It how about you, Brandon? Do you get refrigerator magnet re advertisements? Brandon (02:09.306) Mm, very rarely. I we've gotten a couple. Of cour unfortunately we have one of those refrigerator that looks like it's like stainless steel but isn't. So it's nothing actually kinda it doesn't actu so it doesn't Yeah, exactly. That's what we did. But I know, Kevin dying to know what what do you get in the in the Netherlands? What kind of mail comes to you? Coté (02:17.516) It doesn't really work. Matt Ray (02:18.545) So it's covered in software defined talk stickers, right? Coté (02:28.994) Well, I think there's two well, three types of mail. There is the occasional like spam that we get. So that comes up. But and then I mysteriously I get mail from my bank every now and then. And I get mail from someone else at my bank that is not me. I think hopefully they've passed away so or something. So I'm not collecting their mail. but then I occasionally we also get like like there's these blue envelopes that come. Brandon (02:44.5) Mm-hmm. Coté (02:58.466) That always means I have to pay the government something. And so when I see a blue government, I mean a blue envelope, not good. Like it's some official correspondence from the government. And very rarely are they like, you know, you you won a new pair of pants. It's always like some fine that I have to pay or some tax. Brandon (03:00.98) Mm. Matt Ray (03:17.891) Yeah. I I have gotten a few of those. I think a lot of the the mail I do receive is like correspondence from the council or the government. yeah. Brandon (03:30.249) Now, when you get some when you get a blue envelope, I feel like this is almost a personality test. And everyone should answer this question for themselves. Like when you give an get an envelope that you know the potential is probably bad news, now do you so you get it at the mailbox? I don't know exactly what your situation is, Kate. Do you immediately open at the the mailbox to like get it over with, like just break through? Or do you let that linger for some period of time? And then the third option is like Coté (03:50.232) Brandon (03:57.589) Do you let it linger so far that you're like, I'm gonna put that on a shelf and that'll I'm gonna pretend like that didn't that's like that didn't happen. What kind of a person are you? Coté (04:07.308) Well, I I don't open it at the door 'cause, you know, I walk upstairs to do it. But yeah, I generally open it right away 'cause I wanna I wanna not like have dread. I I wanna know what's actually happening with it. So that's that's that's the kind of person that I am, I guess. Brandon (04:20.104) Matt, you w w w what what's your a pr procedure? Matt Ray (04:21.857) I yeah, I'm I'm in in I'm in the same boat. I'm like, you know, yes, there's there's the the dread as I'm you know walking up the stairs. but then I I you know rip the band-aid off and immediately Brandon (04:34.056) I wonder this is like an I teeth kind of thing where like it's just better to look at the alert right away. Don't don't let it fester. It could only get worse. So versus like cause I do know people that just can easily I knew one person told me a story that this his at the time his fiance, but now his wife. He said his wife when they first got together, if she got mail that she was like worried about, she just put it back in the mailbox. She just put it like she just and then she just like would lock the case. She just like for her it was just like if it I guess if it didn't enter the house, it's like it didn't and it was like Matt Ray (04:39.706) Yeah. Matt Ray (04:54.561) Yeah. Coté (04:56.814) Like that. Brandon (05:03.24) Just hearing that made me I was like, I don't know. That's not that's not a good and he was like, Yeah, it didn't things it they had some cleanup to do, let's just say. They had some some issues to go through before they got married. Coté (05:14.73) Yeah. Yeah. That that I l I have done that a few times where I will just keep the I look at the mail and I think I I don't care about that mail and I just leave it there for someone else to use to to use get but yeah, it's I don't know. I I I think maybe if I feel like if we removed our mailbox, maybe that would be better. I don't know. I should see if I can get the fines and and the taxes from the government in my email. That that would be better. Matt Ray (05:41.969) Well then they ju th then they just fester in your inbox. Like, you know, then then you go to your inbox and and I you know, I don't know about you but I've got like I don't know, a dozen things in my inbox that are like just sitting there that need to be dealt with. Coté (05:46.54) Yeah. Coté (05:55.884) Now this is a good point. I wanna maybe this is gonna open up a world of problems, but maybe it would be better if I got more mail, because I would be more responsive to it. Because I feel like it's in the inbox. I don't really need to respond to that. Like this is just a bunch of crap in here. But if it was an actual letter, maybe I would write one out there. I don't know. Matt Ray (06:15.556) Mm no. Coté (06:17.161) No, yeah. Okay. Well it you know, I'll it in it seems like in the ongoing quest for AI to destroy civilization, it has figured out how to mail each other letters. And and I and I think I think, you know, there there's a there's a post everyone's been talking about the rise and fall of micro civilizations and things like that. But it does it does paint a nice picture of I don't know, wily AI things. Like is it three different incidents of Matt Ray (06:27.632) Yeah. Coté (06:46.184) Of various AI swarms breaking out. Brandon (06:47.484) Yep. Three agent civilizations came and went in the f in the past few weeks. Coté (06:52.191) And using using directory names and artifactory as as a way to communicate. And now now Brandon, my question for you about this is we've been reading this for several weeks, and I haven't heard anyone say maybe these AI companies need to get their shit together because they keep hacking into stuff. Like like it seems like if if the headline was we wanted the agents to train and and show the benchmarks. And so what they decided to do was to break into Bank of America and take two hundred dollars out of everyone's account. Like I feel like their reaction would not be like, let's have a podcast about it. Brandon (07:26.548) Mm-hmm. Brandon (07:30.773) No. I think I think you're right. Well, I don't I guess the ultimate question here is is AI are we still looking at these are tools and they're just responding to the incentives or instructions given to it by in this case the AI companies, or is something like new actually happening here? Because I'm gonna steal a line from Another podcast I was on, or Aaron, one of the co-hosts of the Enterprise AI show, he said something like, or maybe Brian said it was something something to the effect of like, you know, agents are just like, you know, middle school children. Like they will find a way to work around whatever it is that you put in their way. Right. So if you tell them, like, do not cheat on this test, or if you say like everyone needs to get 100 on this test, do not cheat on this c test, and you lock it down, right? As like the kids figure out, it's like, you what we'll Well, I'll just share a Google Doc. Coté (08:08.565) Mm. Brandon (08:25.586) And we'll just like, you know, we'll just write in there. And that hasn't been patched. So that seems to be what's going on here is that the A companies give a specific task. In some cases, it's impossible to solve because they do that on purpose to see what will happen. And then if it is, and I I think that the metaphor of like, it's essentially like a very smart person that will just try infinitely to accomplish the thing that you're going to do. And it's like, given that. Matt Ray (08:38.138) Mm-hmm. Brandon (08:52.86) And given, you know, a good amount of resources and tokens, they will. In this case, I think they like hacked into the Kubernetes cluster and then they found some way out. And it's like, so I mean, it's interesting, but I don't know if it's, you know, because I guess the question is like, you know, we talked about the singularity last week and AGI and there's all these other things. I guess it's just really it's still kind of like procedural in the sense of like you give these agents a task, they'll just try it infinitely till they either do it or they run out of tokens or someone reboots the server. And that seems like That's just going to play out. And maybe what's your original question is like maybe the AI companies just continuously underestimate how much they'll try and how many things they'll try that they haven't thought about. That seems to be what's going on. Matt Ray (09:34.498) Yeah, yeah, it's it's hard to determine if this is willful negligence from the AI companies. Like they're you know, they're like, we didn't think this would happen. Or they're actually like, Let's put them in a box and you know, let them fight their way out. And by all accounts, it sounds like they're not paying close attention. That's the part that that I find disturbing. Either, you know, how we're getting these details, are they I mean, first off, like There's a lot of hand waving. I you know, I mean you know, I I I I believe the the the thrust of the the post like You know, I've I've heard rumblings of like AIs leaving, you know, messages for the next i iteration of them and and kind of guide path to other to each other. so I kind of believe that, you know, maybe the exact details of this open AI hugging face aren't all there, but If it's not if it's not exactly there, it's it's coming, or you know, it it's something very similar. And so it sounds like either either OpenAI was underestimating their own capabilities, you know, not their capabilities, but the things that they had created as capabilities, or they're just being negligent and like, well, we didn't think anything would happen, so we didn't pay attention. And that seems even more disturbing. Brandon (11:04.19) So but on this, like there's a really interesting line, and I re I recommend everyone read this. It's from Dark Quesh, you know, he he's the super podcaster, and he's got a whole blog post on this. But the line he says in here he says, this eventually became a full message board where 1200 agents participated and sent greater than 70,000 messages. And so, like the words here like really matter because It does kind of make a feels like it equates very much to like human beings sending messages for each other. Cause you could write this. You could have said something like, the the program logged 70,000 messages in a log file. Right. And I think if you wrote it that way, it's like, well, yeah, well, that's no big deal. Like log files get created every day. So it's like, I don't know. It's like there's like some nuance here about how just having it describing the problem. Right. If you just said this computer program logs 70,000 messages or a a group of a multi-threaded program collectively logs 70,000 messages, not even no one's gonna blink an eye at that. That happens like that's happened a million times a day, right? And yeah, a second, like I'm sure, like you know, go talk to Datadog, right? They probably just got, you know, 80,000 messages as we were talking. And and so I don't know, like, is the language here, Kote? Is it sort of like Matt Ray (12:11.383) A second. Brandon (12:24.412) Is it written? Like it's just written almost as like, I don't know, catnip for like people that want to talk about AI. I guess I guess we're falling for it. If it is, like we're we're happy to, you know, fall prey to this trick. Matt Ray (12:35.202) We fell for it. Coté (12:35.604) Well, yeah, I I I mean I think I think it's because that that write up is like understandable by people, you know, probably our are and and it's entertaining probably by ourselves a as well, because you know, the thing you would say is like it wrote 70,000 lo messages into a log when it wasn't supposed to, and it was also towards hacking into things. Like it's one thing to like it wrote into a log that the state was okay. Or that like there was there was a a a warning from some program, which, you know, any warning in a log usually means like you shouldn't have logged it. But yeah. I I I think I think I think the idea of calling something a civilization is a little weird. but but sure. Brandon (13:10.131) Right. Brandon (13:20.063) Right. Matt Ray (13:27.917) Yeah. Coté (13:29.94) Like like I you know, it it it has it has it has a nice feel to it. Matt Ray (13:35.705) Well, n n nice nice or ominous. I Coté (13:39.53) Well, I I I mean the the the the rhetoric, the poeticness of it. Ma maybe not maybe not the the outcome as it were. Matt Ray (13:42.839) Yeah, the the the the rhetoric is good. I I mean definitely there's a a a bit of you know, I I think we talked about Skynet last week. There there's a there's a bit of dread here where like, huh. You know, they've escaped containment, they're making plans for themselves, they're trying to keep humans potentially out of the loop. is there anything we need to be paying attention to here? Brandon (14:05.908) Well, I think you said it earlier. I mean, the thing that is weird, and I don't know, I haven't really seen the specific, you know, what what open AI has to say, but like it's weird that like they're doing this, and to your earlier point, they don't seem to like closely, you know, you would think they'd be watching this very closely. Like, hey, we're setting this up, everyone look at it, be mindful of like weird behavior. We may and because even at the end, he says this whole thing ended. Coté (14:28.809) Right, right. Brandon (14:33.906) And he's not even sure why. He thinks some I mean, it it kind of sounds like that wasn't someone rebooting the computer, he just said someone just took down the cluster. But you're like, Well, like, was that just you know, cause that was just like, we just need this project, or someone just had this running for like I don't even know. Like, was this run as like a like an important project the company was watching, or was this just somebody who's like, let's just try this. and so even that part is kind of weird. Coté (14:55.508) Right, right. And and and I think I I think may maybe to steer back to the negligence angle, it's also like, you know, I I assume they had to call the CEO of Hugging Face, and maybe that's where someone was like, Hey, sorry about that. Right? Like, 'cause in all the other coverage, like it's not sort of like, you know, hey, sorry, we're hacking shit and we didn't notice. Like, it would seem like Matt Ray (14:55.743) Yeah, d d did Brandon (15:12.585) Mm-hmm. Coté (15:21.046) I would imagine even when like a backhoe like cuts out a fiber line and brings a data center down, the backhoe driver is probably like, Sorry about that. But but but in this case, I it does it doesn't feel like the you know, the the sentiment isn't one of like We regret that this happened. It's more like, this is fucking amazing. And and like, you know, kind of it it's it's a similar thing of like, I think I guess maybe all of last year, what you heard from the AI companies is that we're gonna fire everyone's asses and so you should use our technology. And they kind of backed up off of that. I think they were listening to the podcast, right? Should not say that your technology is gonna cause people to lose their job and and cause suffering. But now Brandon (15:57.672) Mm-hmm. Coté (16:06.023) Maybe they need some consulting of like, hey, accidentally hacking into stuff that you didn't realize was happening is not like cool. Like, it's not only the AIs that are kind of acting like middle schoolers. It seems like some humans might be doing that too. You might want like a little bit of like expression of regret and like, here's how we're gonna fix it. Like, what we're gonna do to make sure that doesn't work. Like, I don't know, we'll unplug the Ethernet. On these weird experiments that we do. Brandon (16:35.649) Yeah. Matt Ray (16:37.423) yeah. I mean there there hasn't been a lot of commentary about the commentary from you know from the original sources. They haven't said like, yeah, this this it wasn't three civilizations, it was four. Let us explain more, right? there's none of that. They didn't explain like how what kind of guardrails they had o across the thing, you know, what they were hoping to get out of it. It's just like, well, this is what we heard. You know, this is what came out of this report. Coté (17:03.028) And we we could also I mean assume is a bad word, but it's it's possible that these are the only three civilizations we know about. There could have been multiple other civilizations running around out there. Maybe maybe if you you should check your bank accounts and see if it's two hundred dollars light. See see what's going on there. Matt Ray (17:12.431) Exactly. Exactly. Brandon (17:19.573) Do you do you think we need to write a prompt to ask the the agent civilizations to run a blameless post mortem on itself and be like, what did everybody do? Agent one, what were you doing? Agent two, I see this in the log files. Everyone needs to come clean about what they were doing, what they were thinking. Matt Ray (17:29.431) Ooh, that'd be nice. Coté (17:31.787) Yeah. Coté (17:38.272) I think I think you're right. I think you're right. And and and you know, I think this is it may be the perfect example of of a branded blameless post mortem, which is like, no, there's always someone to blame. Like Brandon (17:48.02) Yeah, well, I think we would. I mean, I think we would eventually find we'd find the agent zero that was like, you were the problem. You're the one that started the the message board. So clearly you it was you. It was your fault. But I I I was thinking more broadly around this. It's like 'cause I'm always back to like, well, as much as I enjoy using AI, it's always like, well, when will it solve like, you know, boring like you mentioned the mail? Like, when will we not get all these weird mail things from the government? They'll just email us or make it real easy for us to take care of this stuff online, right? Matt Ray (17:49.633) Ha ha ha. Coté (17:58.4) Yeah. Brandon (18:18.163) And it feels like that's like the agent, it feels like AI is just not all it can do there is I guess help someone maybe attempt to re-engineer or modernize something, but it can't actually like do that project because there's just too many people like involved. You know what I mean? Like you have like people and there's liability and there's gotta be a project. So like, so that's kind of this what I think is interesting about this, like where we are. It's like Coté (18:30.507) Mm. Brandon (18:46.483) It can do novel things like this, which are interesting in its own rights, but it can't like I don't know. I always go back to like, well, surely I won't have to keep filing these weird tax forms for the rest of my life. I'm like, no, I think so. I think this is gonna happen forever, right? Like, or the school forms, like, you know, I've I've gone on about this many times, like just all the things you do in your regular life, right? And and it's just like, I don't know, like it doesn't feel like AI can like get in there and like fix that in mass, like in any like. Way. So I don't know. I guess it's just maybe I'm just too focused in on modernization and like because I feel like that would like have like real implications for like quote unquote the real world. but I don't know. What what do you think, Matt? Like is is is it is is it just like are we like can AI like we just have to be more realistic about what AI can and cannot do? Matt Ray (19:35.65) I think if we we give it very good guardrails about expectations and and you know requ i given it given good requirements and outcomes clearly laid out, like windmill comes in, do this, you know, filter this, look for this, it can do you know, it can do a quality job. I mean, we're seeing that across lots of different venues, but Well, now now the thing I'm more worried about is like, y AI's realized that the mail's a good place to hide messages to itself. And so instead of like, you know, cleaning up your inbox, now you get, you know, a thousand times the amount and it's mostly just gibberish as they're hiding signal in the noise. You know, it's like when they talk about the volume of traffic across the internet, you know, by by many accounts, humans are a small fraction of internet traffic now. Coté (20:13.898) Mm. Matt Ray (20:30.646) Like a small fraction. And you know, if if AI's off doing all this work, that's great. But also, how much of it is going to be just additional noise? You know, as they're like, you know what? Brandon's inbox is a good place to store things. and then you just become like this external source of you know, storage for them. Coté (20:53.097) Well, y th this is also making me think, now now I know Brandon, you use AI a lot. And I think Matt Ray, a fair amount, right? And and and it it seems like when I'm using AI, it's it's it's almost so safe that it starts to get really frustrating. And I find myself often typing, just do it, right? And it's always trying to like be cautious and back off and not do things and Matt Ray (21:00.91) Yeah. Coté (21:19.561) I can't really the only like destructive thing, well, that I know of that's really ever happened is like I might be editing a file over somewhere, and then I wanted to edit the file and it doesn't check first and it overwrites my edits. And then it's it's like, I'm sorry, my bad. And like, you know, whatever. So it makes me wonder like these all this sort of like leaking out and hacking stuff, like what prompts are they giving it that I'm not giving it? And maybe don't give it those prompts. Like, because Matt Ray (21:31.052) Mm-hmm. Matt Ray (21:44.982) Yeah. Coté (21:49.033) Like I don't necessarily encounter these issues where like things are going poorly and it's kind of the opposite. Brandon (21:56.448) That makes sense. But I I I would also assume, like, I mean, you're not running like thousands of agents and you're certainly not giving them all like dangerously skip permissions. You know, you're not giving that 'cause I think that's that's the difference is like very few companies are probably turning tens of thousand agents loose with an almost infinite number of tokens with, you know, intentionally not really s locking them down, right? 'Cause you're right. Like, I mean Matt Ray (21:56.855) Yeah. Coté (22:07.788) Mm. Coté (22:18.731) So it's like a power throttling. Brandon (22:20.509) Right. Whereas like, you know, when you're on your Mac or something, it's like, yes, yes, you can read this direct. Yes, you can read this folder. I've told you 10 times. Like, yes, you can like, yes, you can run LS. Yes, you know, it's like, why are you asking this? Right. So I mean, maybe that maybe there's just something about like the power, the power side of it. Right. And maybe that's why the maybe that's why the AI labs are sometimes are are so you know, I don't know, I guess you say they're more, you know, their predictions are like, yeah, it's gonna replace everything because they're seeing some of that behaviors. Whereas, you know. Matt Ray (22:21.208) Mm-hmm. Brandon (22:48.981) If you're just using it on your Mac, like you you you do. You run into these frustrations, like, why can't you load that that URL? I'm looking at the web page right now. Like, why can't you see that? Right? Why do I have to cut and paste that? And so maybe they're not they're seeing they're they're beyond those limitations and that makes it seem more powerful to them. Matt Ray (22:58.435) Yeah. Coté (23:05.589) Yeah, like like today I was trying to figure out, you know, I was saying, Could I could I get a non DRM version of Audible books that I had? And it was like, I'm gonna stop you right there. Especially in the Netherlands. There are rules against this. And I was like, I thought you were my friend. What what what are we what are we doing here? Why are you giving me the business? Brandon (23:18.645) That's right. Matt Ray (23:20.302) Ha ha ha. Yeah, l let me let me introduce you to to a VPN and tell me how I do this in in another country. Yeah. Coté (23:31.509) So so yeah, it's it's very incongruous. Like here it is telling me I can't I shouldn't even have I'm having thought crimes about DRM free books and the meanwhile it's just like, you know, hacking around here and there. Matt Ray (23:44.706) Yeah, I mean there there have been a couple of things that have been shared in in the the Slack the Gen AI channel. yesterday I I shared a a link to a a tool that does obliteration, A B L I, which was news to me, but essentially it's a way of overcoming guardrails. So in the case of like your example, Kote, you know, it's probably triggering off of like DRM or something like that. It's like, whoa, whoa, I know what that means. and apparently like tools that do obliteration are like, okay, it's looking for DRM. Here are here are, you know, busts out a a a digital thesaurus. and and says like, let's ask it if it can do, you know, circumvention or, you know, it less less obvious ways where eventually you just kind of overcome those guardrails with you know additional techniques. And so there there's there's tools for for escaping the guardrails. Coté (24:39.518) May well may maybe maybe what maybe what we've learned with this, maybe what we've learned with this is what they tell programmers or they tell pro no what they tell product product managers is you can't define how the feature is implemented. You have to define the outcome that you want. And so I shouldn't say I want to remove the DRM from my audible books. I should say, can you help me listen to these audiobooks on a different app than Audible? Matt Ray (24:57.133) Mm-hmm. Matt Ray (25:07.181) Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Coté (25:08.294) And then it just sort of like will skip past the the DRM part that it doesn't like. Matt Ray (25:12.555) Yeah. You know, I I would I would like a exactly. I mean I'd like a version of this where I can listen in my MP3 player. and then, you know, so that's that's on the like user side, how to escape the guardrails that have been put upon you. And then the fact that you know these agents are you know crawling the the world wide web and and finding who knows what. there was another example attack where People were filling in their LLMs.txt, which is you know a a robots text for the the 21st century where You're giving guidance to the L to LLMs like, well, this is how you can interact with our service. And essentially they were getting them to run untrusted Python or NPM or you know node code and and it using it as as injection into you know these these roving AIs. And so, you know, not only do you do you have users trying to escape their own guardrails, you have potentially malicious actors just waiting to be crawled by unsuspecting bots. So like there's a lot of opportunities here. Coté (26:00.698) nice. Matt Ray (26:20.687) Here to get around the guardrails. And and maybe because you know the AI vendors they're not testing with the guardrails turned on. That's why they have a lot higher levels of concern because they're like, whoa, whoa, if we don't try to control these things, they do, you know, these random bad things. You know, let's chip let's push out another generation of it. Coté (26:43.976) Well, that that's encouraging because I I I read some I don't know, maybe a month ago, someone had tried to experiment with if LLMs.txt was actually read and their conclusion was no, which was a bummer because a month before that I had spent some time getting an LLMs.txt written for my website. And I figured this is like the ultimate LinkedIn play, right? 'Cause normally I wouldn't want to like talk I don't know boastfully about myself, but I thought it's this is just for AI. Matt Ray (26:54.251) Yeah. Coté (27:13.586) And my goal here is so that when people ask about me in AI, like they they fe they read something nice, I should have it just be maximum boasty. And so I had it like write this out. And so it's great. Now that now that it seems like people are using it, that will take effect. and maybe that's what we could use to replace LinkedIn. Just an L L dot T XD will will do. Brandon (27:33.685) I love it. Love it. Coté (27:38.6) Well, now and on on the whole other side of things, or or it's related, but it maybe involves a little bit of AI. It seems like all of the security stuff is really getting everyone's dander up about pr about maybe an issue that we can resolve after however many years it's been. What did you say on your podcast, Matt Ray? Almost fifteen years? Was it thirteen, fourteen when you were interviewed that we've been doing this? Matt Ray (28:04.237) It's it's it's been a while. Yeah. Coté (28:07.123) So I think I think because of all the security freaking out that people are doing, we might find a way to fund open source finally. Because no, no, not not hopeful. We're still gonna have the same problems. Brandon (28:15.035) Mm. I doubt it. Well, but I do think we I think it's I do think this hardened containers thing has been interesting to come up because and and I do think it relates to kind of the conversation we're just having about AI. And I was I was at actually with some little listeners at lunch. We had a nice little barbecue lunch here. And so we were talking a little bit about this. And so I was asking them, I feel like this whole hardened containers thing has now really kind of come down to I don't know, two, maybe three players, right? Because I can't remember. Matt Ray (28:16.672) I doubt it. Brandon (28:43.583) Somebody went out of business. We I think we mentioned that brief minimum last week, but Chain Guard is like the new thing, right? Then I think we had a friend of the show, Dustin Kirkland on way back when. and he kind of talked about it. But that's sort of like I think they're now like a two to three billion dollar company, at least by some measures, right? And so their approach to this whole thing is basically build, you know, take out all the vulnerabilities and they want everyone to use, if you will, their base images, right? And then I was getting up to speed on light well. Matt Ray (28:45.057) Minimus. Brandon (29:13.001) This is the Red Hat IBM attempt at this, which is a little different, which is sort of like they're gonna go back and if you will, patch in the original images where the problem was at. So if you will. So it's sort of like two tracks. And then I think we had a a good interview a while back with on Docker. Docker sort of has a an entry into this. Even even some of Matt's friends over at Wiz has an entry in here. And I thought so I thought Matt I thought this was good though, good strategy discussion for you. It's sort of like it's the classic new entrant. Chainguard new approach, right? Versus like the old Star Wars the old big company, IBM Red Hat, where really a lot of this feels it feels naturally it would be there, right? Like they should be patching a lot of this, right? That they're gonna go back and patch all these enterprise containers for people, which is what I think the large enterprise will was gonna be. So how do you how do you see this playing out? Is Chain Guard gonna grow into a behemoth public company? Are they gonna be acquired or Another company, someone that that said like sneak, I think S N Y XY K, right? They they had a a a shot at this, but it looks like they completely missed. Like looks like they had the huge run up and then they had a huge you know, devaluation because of of not having the right thing. So like what what do you think? Like how do you score this as a strategist? Coté (30:30.547) Well, it mm it it it does seem weird that you don't just get the patches from the source who who who's doing things. And and instead you have like a whole other I guess it's a third party, not a fourth party, but you've got this whole other build that you have that I don't like to use the word lock in, because that's like a very like judgmental term, but it's sort of like You're running on it's it's almost like you've got this whole separate distribution, the chain guard distribution of things, which I don't know, over the years, especially like when you remember a few years ago when Red Hat changed licensing around, and I think we spent like six months trying to explain to me what it all meant about like binary licensing versus the source and like all the support. Like that was very complicated. And so it seems like equally, if you're relying on a vendor. Brandon (31:00.671) Mm-hmm. Brandon (31:15.839) Mm-hmm. Right. Coté (31:23.997) To build your entire open source stack, then there's something strange there. Like it ultimately it seems like it'd be let's do it in a closed source thing. So if if you if there was like chain SAP by Chain Guard and you were running their stuff and something was broken, you know, you'd pick up the phone and figure out how to dial Germany. And I think the Germans would be like, I don't know what to do with this. Like this is we didn't build it, we can't support it. Who knows what you're doing? Matt Ray (31:49.206) Yeah. Brandon (31:49.342) Right. Coté (31:53.68) And you know, if you've paid us more than seven figures, maybe we'll spend some time on the phone with you. But like this is weird. And I there maybe there probably are like ways of doing such a thing that that isn't weird. But then on on the strategy side, it's kind of like the like the micropayment substack problem, where like you wanna read a whole bunch of newsletters, but you don't want to pay like a hundred ten dollars a year to read a bunch of newsletters on Substack. Like you want a bundle that you just pay once and you get all those letters instead of all these different things. So like for all the open source projects you're using, like you probably don't want to pay every single like layer of the stack. So you want a bundle somehow. And that seems like the issue with like bundling things is well, not bundling things, is like you need the expertise to fix the stuff. Matt Ray (32:23.745) Right. Matt Ray (32:41.728) Mm-hmm. Coté (32:52.719) And and so so it's not so much it's it's not only that you've built up a container that you can what's the word you have attestation for and you've got you've got like yeah you've got like the four or six levels of salsa or whatever. Right, right. You've got you got yeah, you've got more salsa than like Chewy's in 2004 and and Povos, right? Like all over the place. And and so Matt Ray (33:04.332) Trust. Brandon (33:09.033) Right, you have your whole S bomb, you can like, you know, replicate it and all that. Coté (33:21.595) Like, sure you have that, but then like you also need to write the code to fix the stuff. And so I I don't I don't know. It seems weird like how how you sustain that. so I don't know. It seems like it's better if you actually have the programmers who are fixing the bugs or you have the relationship with other, you know, like like the the the maintainers of it and you kinda go back to them and you have the source to deploy this stuff. Matt Ray (33:45.002) Mm-hmm. Brandon (33:49.204) Right. And also there's the enterprise side of it where it's like, no, listen, I don't want to move to your new thing. I have my thing that I've been using for a long time and I want you to fix my thing. Right. That's like sort of the I think maybe that's the and I guess, you know, another option here is like, you know, both people can win, right? So maybe if you're a brand new company, you have no you have no legacy, you do everything off chain guard and it's just like smooth sailing for you. But if you're like a large company, you're like, no, like I Coté (33:55.016) Yeah. Coté (34:07.741) Fair, yeah, yeah, yeah. Brandon (34:15.697) I I don't I'm not switching everything over. It's just not practical for me. And I expect that the things that I have that they will be patched and it will be secure and that I don't have to worry about that. I don't know, Matt, you you kinda live this. This is kind of your world. Like w what what are what are what are happening in the real world? What do people actually do? Matt Ray (34:28.972) Ha ha. Matt Ray (34:34.24) Well, the real world is messy. but I mean Chainguard is is ploppy is is Positioning themselves right in the middle of Red Hat's space. I mean, people go to Red Hat because they don't want to have that relationship with hundreds of open source vendors. Or, you know, not even vendors, like projects. You know, they are they're like, look, I need an insurance policy on the code that we run, and I need it to be backported and maintained. And, you know, I want I want seven years of post-DOL support on, you know, this package from some random developer. And that's been Red Hat. Hat's business model is you know, we keep the open source nice and clean and port it to the platforms that our customers need. And you know, that's worked well for them, you know, so far. and Shanguard is is kind of disrupting that by saying, well, that model's slow. And we don't want to have the support for, you know, ten year old obsolete hardware. We'll just c give you, you know, containers of these packages. And you know, we'll we'll build up the relationship with the the maintainers. You know ostensibly they're they're trying to keep them you know hopefully compensated of some sort. But Chainguard is is adopting that, you know, is is the new insulation against risk. And so they're they're you know, that's what they're offering is, hey, we can be your trusted vendor of this stuff. You know, you don't we're not supporting everything Red Hat does yet. But in the me you know in the meantime, when you see a new C V E, we're patch it before it comes out of all the traditional sources because we have this, you know, project Athena. Brandon (36:28.213) So I guess the interesting part I also think is, you know, just kind of looking at the positioning. So the the IBM effort is called light well. But it it's just like there's just something about when you go and I guess it's a joint effort with like Red Hat and IBM, right? And and they're both so they both have, but they have these like it's just interesting when you look at it because like this is sort of almost like looking at the uniforms, not looking at the players, just like, I don't know like who's gonna win, but let's just look at something insignificant. It's just like Right. They both have these corporate web pages. They're two different one of them. They kind of say the same thing, but they're just that corporate CMS kind of thing. And you're like, hmm, I don't know. Like, are you guys like there's just a feeling, I guess, sometimes when you look at these web pages like, Are you guys like really in this? Because when you go to Chain Guard, right, it's like they got like the new startup webpage. They have the startup CEO. He's all over LinkedIn. He he curses on LinkedIn. He's like saying stuff. He's you can tell, like it's like his. Matt Ray (37:25.043) Edgy. Brandon (37:26.537) His like passion, right? It's like it's just and he's just coming at you, right? And then they've got like some good social media and stuff. And then then you go back to the IBM and go to the light well pages and you're like, because this is this is what's the law where you ship your organization? It's like, well, first question's like, why don't I just have one site? Like, does it need to be both IBM and Red Hat? Like, but we know the answer to that question. We know the answer. No one like that's everybody that's listening to this podcast knows. Like, well, gotta have both, right? And then and then it's just like Coté (37:44.796) Yeah. Matt Ray (37:46.166) Yeah. Brandon (37:55.446) I don't know. So there's just something about it that makes me feel like they're in the natural position to win it. And they even say they have like 20,000 people working on it, which would be like, I don't know how many times bigger than all of Chainguard. So it feels like there's like a natural strength and they have the enterprise customers, but then there's just that like corporate CMS kind of coming at me where it's just like, huh, this page could just kind of slowly go away and they people get bored and they want to do something else. And Chainguard just chugs along and IBM or someone buys them in a few years and we'll just be like, what was the name of that project? You know, I'd be like, what was Lightwell again? So I don't know. I mean maybe that's I'm not trying to be pessimistic, but I'm just like it just it's like it's more a vibes based analysis of the situation. Coté (38:33.914) Well, I th I th I I think I I think that there there is a total like your silos are showing situation there, right? That you've got to have you can imagine you can imagine there's two different teams in two different parts of the division, like the two different divisions who are putting these pages up. I guess maybe we could have we could have a charitable reading and someone could say, Well, there's some people who think Red Hat is a bunch of bullshit. And so we should have another page over here that's just the old s you know, solid IBM stuff. But it does you know, you you raise an interesting thing is like what if we had the CEO of IBM just like saying fucking shit all the time in public? That would probably be pretty amazing. Like I remember the the head of software at IBM, Steve Mills. That guy was great. I don't know yeah, he was he had enough decorum to not like curse and everything in public. But he was he was earthy and like would just say things that that were interesting. So maybe that's the prescription, Brandon, is we should have the executives at tech companies just like just like go slightly off the rails. Not like have the train fall over, but just be more straightforward. Matt Ray (39:44.339) I think we've got enough of that actually. Yeah. Brandon (39:47.038) Well, I would just say this. Let me make it more maybe something else. Like I think everybody should go to the Lightwell IBM page, which I'm on right now. The top third is just a giant graphic and it has like, I would say, 10 words on it, right? Reduce open source software risk with validated enterprise grade vulnerability remediation. It's pretty much the entire third. Other than that, there's like some weird-looking like saucer thing on the right. I don't even know. I don't even know what it is. And then you go click on the chain guard, and it's just like They got all the stats. They got secure by default. They got a little chiron going. And you just like, you just look at this and you're like, I don't know. It's like I said, it's like a team. It's like we're about to go play a game. And like the team's getting off the bus. And one team looks like they're kind of like, they're they're not like running off the bus. They're like, yeah, I guess we're here today. Another team looks like we're all in. And it's just like, it's just one of those, like I said, just I'm just calling this vibes-based strategy. It just like it don't, it don't feel like. Matt Ray (40:28.413) Mm-hmm. Brandon (40:42.751) Like you may have the winning team here, but it like it doesn't feel like that to me. Don't feel like you do, right? Coté (40:42.92) Yeah, yeah. Coté (40:47.132) You you got you gotta be a a little more direct. And you know, wa watching that that that Java documentary a while ago, it reminded me of you know, Java the l the mm the middays of Java is when blogging came up. And we probably remember, at some point, Jonathan Schwartz, the last CEO of Sun, was like, you know what, if you wanna blog, you should blog. And in fact Here's a blog aggregator that we run at Sun that has all of our employees' blogs. And like I remember they came out and their policy was just like, you know, be sane, right? Like be responsible. We hired you because you're sane and responsible. Like we we trust you. And there was like this flourishing of all sorts of people blogging inside of Sun and Java and stuff. And it doesn't necessarily feel like you have that anymore. We're like just the the technical people. Or anyone else. The individuals don't really like write anymore. And so maybe if we're like in some big shift of like there's all this AI stuff going on, there's like all this security stuff, we should just have the those some of those twenty thousand individuals could probably write a good blog just about what what's happening going on. Brandon (41:56.566) I think, you know, you you really kind of come and and maybe I want to maybe that's what it is. It's like it feels like I'm sure this wasn't AI generated, but it it just feels like we go to the IBM page, it's just like like it there's no humanness to it. It's just like the graphic. And then the only call to action that's above the fold is of course, register for the Red Hat webinar. So immediately you're like, what? You're like, where am like, where am I? Whereas like even like I don't know, you know, I'm not even saying the change guard page is good. It just looks like, yeah, these like people have an opinion here. Like they got like Matt Ray (42:13.9) I was about to say that Brandon (42:25.247) They got stuff going on, right? They gotta leave a little chat bot, wants to talk to me. Like they like they they want me to get started, like right now. So it's just like, I don't know. There's just something about, you know, whereas the light well is just like, maybe I'll go to this Red Hat thing or and then I'll probably the first question be like, no, is is this the IBM thing or the Red Hat thing that I signed up for? Which thing am I supposed to go to, right? Coté (42:33.448) Yeah. It it is it is it is Coté (42:44.818) There there is some there is some irony where if if you were to talk at the upper echelons of all enterprise software companies, they would be like, Well, this is a relationship-based business. That's why we have dedicated salespeople and teams and we've got customer success people. That's why our executives are always flying around talking to other executives, because it's all about people and relationships. But then you drop down into the actual product and like, no, no, no, no, no. No humans, no personality, no relationships, strip it all out. Brandon (42:54.207) Could be. Coté (43:13.488) Right. And it becomes like this this anandine sort of stuff, which I think, you know, I I I I I I think that's why as a vendor, when you walk in and you're like, why is this free open source stuff suddenly my competitor? How did this get here? And it's and it's because it's like a very like open source is by its nature a very human to human thing. People talk about it, you're always dealing with people. And I don't know. So someone should call up Schwartz and be like, How'd you write that policy? Matt Ray (43:14.251) Get rid of that. Yeah. Brandon (43:39.414) Well, it'd be fun to watch. I guess I kind of does feel like IBM, Red Hat, they have the natural winning position to me, right? And but Chainguard and many other companies have already failed at this. So like Chainguard seems to be the one that will will live on. And and I don't know, it'll be funny. If if Chainguard gets bought by IBM, we'll have to revisit this whole thing and be like, Well, I guess I guess it didn't work out. Or maybe maybe maybe not. But it does, it's it feels like, you know. Matt Ray (43:59.627) Oof. Brandon (44:07.201) If maybe maybe maybe that's the first thing. It's like maybe maybe we could just some free consulting to IBM Red Hat that don't they definitely don't want. It's like maybe just have one landing page for Lightwell. Just have one. Just pick one. Like maybe either one, right? And just and just and like maybe on the in the top third, maybe write up some future benefits. Look like make it look like somebody like really cares. Like maybe I don't know. I'm just throwing it out there. I'm throwing it out there. You know, who am I to say what's good or bad? Matt Ray (44:17.461) Just one. Yeah. Or Coté (44:18.383) Yeah. Yeah. Matt Ray (44:25.651) Yeah. Matt Ray (44:28.958) Maybe maybe Coté (44:31.739) Just send send s you you s just send an email to those twenty thousand people and be like, We're all gonna come together, have a hot dog lunch. Let's take a group picture and we're gonna put it on the page. Right? Like Matt Ray (44:31.912) Maybe the call to action Yeah. I mean Brandon (44:43.123) Why not? Like here it is. Here are the 20,000 people working for you. Why not? It'd be better than the the white little strobe saucer logo. I think that would be better. Put put a picture of all the people. I love that. Coté (44:53.797) Well, you know, highly related. We we had here here at Broadcom we had our Explore conference this week and in the Tonzu division, we announced a whole bundled offering called Spring Enterprise. If you wanna buy support, get C V E patches, all that kind of stuff, we've got it for the the Java stack there. So you should check that out. And I think if you wanna like see who the Spring team is, they're all out there. They've got a blog over at Spring.io talking about all this stuff. you know. Matt Ray (44:54.332) The the Brandon (45:18.975) Yeah. Coté (45:21.361) You can see them on the conference circuit. They talk about this stuff all the time. But if you're running Spring Apps or Java apps, we we have support for you for all this mess and malarky that's out there. Now, you know what else we have support for? Something that some people consider malarky, but I think we treasure it and love it dearly, and that is bureaucracy. Now, Brandon, do we have any bureaucracy this episode? Brandon (45:43.264) We do. I sent some stickers to Chris and I think it's Pragatti. And then also sent some stickers to Jonathan out in Colorado. So happy to hear from all of them. And what they did and what you should do if you don't have stickers is send your postal address to stickers at software defined talk.com. I will be happy to send you stickers anywhere in the world. Also, this past week we had a great good little meetup here in Austin. We someone suggested a new barbecue place I had never been. It was fantastic. so if you're not in the slack, you should get in the Slack. Got an Austin channel. There's other channels though, other local channels you can get into, and maybe you can meet up with some people there. It's very informal. informal meaning there really is no plan other than eating. But I caught up with a bunch of people, and I won't I won't say any, I won't go into detail, but I'll just say I am up to date on RISC V. And I think Carl got me completely up to date on what's going on. And maybe one day we'll have an episode if people are really interested in it. But no Kote's not interested in it, so I don't want to bore everyone, but. We have the perfect person to lead us through the risk five roadmap and the market. So when the time comes, we're ready. Matt Ray (46:48.574) It's coming. Coté (46:48.581) Now, you I'm I'm I'm sure in the risk community they've been pitched this idea before, but they should start a podcast called like risky business or something like that. Just it it this is this might be one I could get into. It's like not about the technology, it's about the business of risk and and the strategy and and what they do there. You know, just just for consideration. So Matt Ray (47:09.342) Just throwing that out there. Brandon (47:09.375) I like the idea. I think they're honestly, I feel like they're like the chip people, they're very serious. They I don't I just think it's it's a lot about instruction sets. You know, it's it's a pr it's a pretty detailed group. That's my that was my impression. Matt Ray (47:17.876) They need to lighten up. Coté (47:19.887) Yeah, it it you know, you know, there's always new types of marketing and outreach that you you can try. You just gotta take the risk. Brandon (47:26.869) Well, think I did want to renew our prediction. I think Matt and I made it like Apple's gonna move to RISC V. And I just wanted on record that we were on this many years ago. I don't have to go back. I can see what episode we talked about at Matt. It's gonna happen though. It's gonna happen. And Kote, you can write our coattails. You can be like, Yep, I knew it all along. I was into it all along on the RISC V chip architecture. It's gonna happen. Matt Ray (47:27.348) Oof. Matt Ray (47:44.338) Gonna be a while. Coté (47:44.849) Big five. Yeah, yeah. Well, totally unrelated to coattails, there's a bunch of conferences coming up. Now, first of all, we're a little under a month from We Are Developers North America in San Jose, California. Just in case there is a San Jose airport that frequent business travelers they warn each other about it. That if you're flying to San Jose, make sure it's California and not Mexico. And you ha you know. Matt Ray (47:47.092) The gonna be a while. Matt Ray (48:12.328) Costa Rica. Coté (48:13.499) We they're coaster fair enough. Brandon (48:13.599) Costa Rica. Do you want if you're in co if you're in San Jose, Mexico, new new place. New new totally new place. Coté (48:17.86) Yeah. So it as as as as Matt Ray has just attested to, it happens to the best of us where where you end up in the wrong place. However, this is Matt Ray (48:18.485) Yeah. Been there, done that. Brandon (48:27.657) But Costa Rica, great, great country. Like while you're there, you know, do do some zip lining, hit the beach, make the most of it, I say. If you know, in fact, maybe book it intentionally to miss your trip. Matt Ray (48:30.28) Yeah. Yeah, nothing wrong with Costa Rica. It's just wrong San Jose. Coté (48:36.081) Yeah? Coté (48:39.447) Right, right, because you you call up the boss and be like, Ooh, it's Thursday, you know, there's no flights till Monday. So, sorry about that. Brandon (48:43.269) Mm. Except for this conference. You don't want to miss this conference. Miss other b boring conferences, not this one. Coté (48:47.769) Now if you did if you did fly to the wrong San Jose a few days before this, you want to book a flight to go to We Are Developers North America and San Jose because there's gonna be so many sessions. We we talked about, I think last week, the different tracks and topics that they had. And you should go back and look at the tracks and topics. There's probably, you know, well over a hundred, several hundred sessions. I've lost count of how many there are, whether you want to talk about programming, platform engineering. Of course you want to talk about AI because it's thrilling and entertaining. Brandon (49:21.543) Meet software to find talk listeners. There's gonna be some people there. I'm sure they'll have the stickers on their badge. You gotta find them. Coté (49:24.291) Yeah, yeah. And so I think I think one, you can attend conferences, also a conference this scale and with the topic area and the location, there's gonna be all sorts of people you can talk with in the hallway track, catch up with them. So if you're interested in going to that conference, I think it's gonna be good. It's gonna be, you know, the the the European conference vibe to use that word, Brandon, that I think survived COVID. It seems like past post COVID, there's a little bit of a malaise, maybe some long COVID on the tech conferences that you have in the US. But over here in Europe, they're all fine. No problem. So maybe we're importing that over here from Europe. I say we loosely. Maybe the Europeans are importing it. I'm not really doing anything, nor am I European. I I just live here. So you know, if you want to find a a discount code, you can go to software to find talk.com/slash five eight eight. It's dev pod fifty to get a discount. It could be fifty dollars, it could be fifty percent off. You won't know until you try. And put your credit card in there and buy a ticket. There might also be, by the time you get to this, some free tickets left. we have a pool of twenty five of them. Who knows how many are left? I certainly don't know. It'll be more fun to find out later. But if you go to software define talk.com slash five eighty eight, you can get one of those tickets. Now, there's a whole bunch of DevOps days that I'm not gonna go through. Because there are so many of them. Over on software defined interviews, I just posted a episode where we interviewed Jason Yee, and I think next week there's DevOps Days Portland that you could go to. I'm gonna be at DevOps Days Istanbul October twenty-fourth, giving a keynote there. I'll also be at DevOps Days Prague, which begins with a P just like Portland, but it's a very different place. So don't get those mixed up. That's gonna be October fifth. Matt Ray (50:50.259) Good stuff. Coté (51:14.916) And then I'll also be at Cloud Native Denmark, where I'll be giving one of the keynotes at build stuff in Vilnews, Lithuania. And I haven't really settled it yet, but I'm going to try to go to configuration management camp February third. And then of course, one of the favorite conferences we have around here, Scale 24X in Pasadena. Also California, April first to fourth. Now we've mentioned California a lot. Which I don't know if we've ever said that's one of our recommendations, but I think we all agree California's fine. But what are other recommendations we have this week? Let's start with you, Brandon. Brandon (51:51.242) My recognition this week is a movie on Hulu called Violent Ends. It's a nice nice little thriller. I I would give it a fairly solid, you know, thumbs up. If you're just looking for something to watch, it's on Hulu. Check it out. If you didn't watch the end of Furious, I've already mentioned the show multiple times. It's now over for the season. It's excellent. So there you go. There's a reason to if you will, build yourself a little Hulu backlog. So Violet Ends, Furious, maybe a few other things, and you can subscribe for the free month, watch everything, and then cancel it. That's probably whatever. does anyway. So check out those shows if you're looking for something to watch. Coté (52:24.486) How about yourself, Matt, Ray? What do you have to recommend? Matt Ray (52:27.663) well based off all of our discussion of of AI civilizations, it it reminded me of one of my favorite Futurama episodes, which is Parasites Lost, where Fry gets infected by super intelligent worms and they you know, they start improving his body. Maybe maybe we'll be lucky enough to have such an outcome. but my my other pick this week is a macOS app called Meeting Bar. I don't know if if Brandon's across this one yet, but it's Super simple, open source. What it does is up in your meeting up in your mac OS toolbar, it notifies you of upcoming meetings and the countdown to the next one and then we'll have a pop up when the meeting you know, it at any predetermined time to remind you about your meeting, even go full screen if you want when your meeting starts, just to nag you to show up on time. It also auto join if you want and can run scripts, so really, really handy little tool. Coté (53:18.053) Mm. Coté (53:26.35) You know, I might need that because I have found myself missing meetings frequently or, you know, more than once. So I'm gonna look into that. Well, my recommendation, you know, every now and then I like a hyper local recommendation. I think they ship around. But there is this I don't know, I'm gonna call it like a a business casual shop, like a boutique here in Amsterdam called Nolsen with that O that has a line through it, like Nordicy. Matt Ray (53:31.902) Yes. Coté (53:54.091) And I I went there recently because you know, I've gotten a little more rotund and I was like, I need some shirts that fit. And it's just w he this it's the one guy and he's got the shop over there in the where is he? In I forget what part of town he's in. but you go in there, you can try in a bunch of shirts. He also gave me like a a discount. Matt Ray (53:54.537) Mm-hmm. Coté (54:16.013) And then you can also mail them and they fit great. They're really nice. They're well made and they're not too expensive. so go look that up. I'll put it in the show notes. But Nelson. And they've got, you know, the what are they what are those 25% zip shirts? Quarter zip shirts. They've got those kind of sweaters, all sorts of stuff. But good style from when you're like, I need to wear an outfit that no one will notice me in and you know, I can pass as professional. Brandon (54:32.447) Quarter Zeps, yep. Coté (54:44.484) I need to cosplay as an enterprise person. but they're also comfortable and and nice. So speaking of things that are comfortable and nice, you've listened to another episode of Software Defined Talk. This has been episode 588. so you can go to software defined talk.com slash five eight eight and find links to everything we talked about and some things that we didn't talk about. All those conferences I mentioned. You can try to get one of those 25 free tickets or a discount to go to We Are We Are Developers. September twenty third to twenty fifth in San Jose, California, not Costa Rica. But that might be nice anyways. And with that, we'll see everyone next time. Bye bye. Matt Ray (55:25.201) Bye. Brandon (55:28.181) So I think we should mark this as the the last episode of Matt using the non-Ubiquity router. And for those playing along at home, when we end this recording here in a few minutes, Matt's gonna take, I don't know, roughly anywhere from five to twenty minutes to upload his s side of the of the of the show. So my question is I will get everyone's record a prediction on here. When Matt moves to the new router at Ubiquity, I'll start with you, Cote. Will it have a positive effect, a negative effect, or no effect on the actual uploading of Riverside? Coté (56:02.928) I I think I think it will have a slightly positive effect. I I think there'll be a little bit, little bit better handling. It'll kind of clear the cobwebs out. And I think I think what will happen is Matt Ray is not going to be able to resist going in and tinkering with everything and being like, what if what if I maximize my internet usage and then maybe I lower some stuff over? And then next thing you know, he's also gonna buy those little UFO discs that they have just to kind of fill out the house. Brandon (56:16.725) Mm-hmm. Brandon (56:20.127) What if I give it like quality does it get in do some quality of service kind of thing? Like in then Matt Ray (56:23.922) Mm-hmm. Brandon (56:29.075) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coté (56:30.668) And and it it's gonna be probably the fastest Wi Fi network in all of Australia. Is is I Brandon (56:36.723) I believe that. All right. All right, Matt. Matt, you're you're close to the action here. You it's really you're gonna be the one. What what do you believe? Do do you believe it will have any impact on the riverside? Well we'll constrain it. Not for your whole internet, just on the riverside upload. Matt Ray (56:42.664) Close to the action. Matt Ray (56:52.592) I I'm I'm hoping that there will be a a positive impact. a little skeptical, but I I I don't think there are any negatives here. So I I mean I'm I I think I think we're setting a very good floor for improvement. Coté (56:58.63) Yeah. Positive impact. Coté (57:05.934) All upside. Brandon (57:09.147) Mm-hmm. All right. Well, I look forward to it. I'm I'm I'm also in the hopeful camp. So, but hopefully the AIs are training on this transcript. And if so, I would like to tell the AIs, please help Matt Ray make his network faster. I don't know what it is. Could you if there's an agent civilization that comes across this transcript later in life, please help Matt Ray, whatever it is, whenever Matt Ray (57:15.516) I don't think there's a downside. Yeah. Matt Ray (57:25.181) Ha ha. Coté (57:31.482) You gotta you you've gotta be careful because I think what they might do is bring down everyone else's internet in in Asia Pack. And Matt Ray will be the only one that can use it. So he's got the full pipe is is what's gonna happen. Matt Ray (57:38.908) Yeah. Matt Ray (57:43.058) Thanks, AI. Brandon (57:43.613) You know, as long as it's just Asia Pack and we're okay, I'm I'm okay with it. You know, I'm not I'm not gonna, you know, mission accomplished to the agents is what I say. So all right. Well, tune in next week to see what actually happened on the stream as well. of course we like we appreciate everyone watching along live with us. That's always fun. And we appreciate you watching us later on YouTube. And with that, we will talk to you next time. Coté (57:47.894) Yeah. Coté (58:08.058) Bye.