Coté (00:00.448) Now I think I think Matt Ray and I are in the same situation. We are we are Americans abroad during perhaps this is twenty twenty six, maybe the finest cultural diplomacy that America's been having for for the twenty first century. We got all all the all the people, mostly Europeans, I think. I don't know, I haven't done the demographics over there for the as they say, football in in America. Yeah. Brandon (00:27.453) World Cup, yep. Coté (00:28.886) And to translate for our American listener base, soccer is what we're talking about. But I'm gonna refer to it as as football or you know, soccer. and and and here here I haven't cover you know, I wanna I wanna little get a little bit of the highlights from you, Brandon, 'cause I you're there on the ground, you know, you're seeing what's happening. maybe reading the story. Matt (00:36.449) That's what Australia calls it. Brandon (00:45.982) On the ground, yep. Mm-hmm. I went to one friendly. I couldn't afford a real game, but I went to a friendly game. It was cheaper. Mm-hmm. Matt (00:48.767) actually go into stuff, right? Coté (00:54.58) And and so my I'm I'm gonna lay out what my hope is, right? My hope is that after this, you know, with all the people kicking the ball and stuff, sure, that's cool. but maybe the Europeans will come back and they'll be like, ice and beverages. They've got something there, right? And then maybe there'll be this cascade over the next decade, and eventually. Brandon (01:14.228) Ha ha ha. Coté (01:22.06) We'll be able to order the GE profile in home pebble ice cube maker. We'll be able to go to bowl dot com and just order it for however many untold Euros. and everyone, it ice will become a universal right. you know, not only in France, but in the Netherlands, all of Europe. You know, the UK, they probably won't like it based on principle if the Continentals like it. But we'll just like start having ice. It'll be great. But Matt (01:25.397) Hahaha Brandon (01:27.155) Nugget ice maker. Yeah, Pebble Ice. Yeah. So Coté (01:51.629) Now that said, Brandon, you know, and and maybe the the joke here being I'll I'll I'll explain the joke before I even do it. You know, of course, since it's in America, you've been seeing a lot of this, right? In you know, all all over the place. Brandon (02:01.307) Absolutely. Well, I've been following a lot of it on social media. I did go to one game live in person, but the the general consensus of what the Europeans are learning is like one, they've discovered it's hot in the United States during the summer. Okay. I believe this was I you know, this is one of these things though, like I don't you don't know what you don't know, right? It's like I don't maybe it's the whole cell Celsius Fahrenheit thing. Like we have it, like everyone's like Coté (02:25.591) yeah. Yeah. Brandon (02:26.355) We've been keeping it a secret, but I feel like it's very well understood that in the United States during the summer it's hot. So much so far as I kinda assume it's like hot in the summers in Europe, but I've obviously I don't I'm not living there. So but I guess, you know, I don't know what the you know, so ninety, you know, ninety five to a hundred degrees, which is like what, thirty three, thirty four, maybe higher. I don't know what that isn't exactly in Celsius. It's like Coté (02:46.12) Mm, it's it's it's more. Yeah. Brandon (02:50.843) Evidently, this is a huge deal for Europeans. Like they do not use it. Even the very well conditioned football teams are like struggling with some of this heat. And I'm just like, this is just August. And and also too, I guess the thing that's maybe not clear to Europeans is like, yes, the latitude can be pretty different in the United States, like Texas all the way up to like the New England area, but like it can just kind of be hot across most of the continent at different times, right? Or most, yeah, because it's Coté (03:17.16) Mm. And swampy. Brandon (03:19.547) Or the country rather and kind of and kind of humid. I mean, there's a few places, like, you know, maybe in like San Diego and a few like, you know, and and maybe in like Seattle. but this seems to be big news to a lot of European fans. So I've enjoyed watching that. But I did think to myself, as you were talking about, it was like, but finally, like maybe we're gonna make a case for ice. 'Cause I hope they're all enjoying ice in their drinks and they're also enjoying the air conditioning. Coté (03:47.767) Mm. Brandon (03:47.886) that seems to be a huge a bonus for them. So that's that's come up a couple of times. And then of course Coté (03:53.433) I think I think maybe maybe part one to summarize, it's good to be cool. Not f not freezing, but it's it's nice to just have like a very to be chill, right? Chill in your drink, chill in your interiors. Brandon (03:58.515) Yeah. Well Brandon (04:03.374) Mm. Well, this is the other thing. Could I also feel like Kote in Europe you pretty much don't wear shorts like outside, right? I mean, is that well, correct me. You're you're the European. You're representing all of Europe here. Matt (04:11.97) What? Coté (04:16.234) I think I think I I would I would I w so so the the simple answer is yes. And the more complicated one is that in America everyone wears shorts. It's I I would I would put it that way. Brandon (04:24.029) Right. Right, but I think it's like it makes sense though. Like it's just hot, right? I mean, it's not so much a fashion thing. It's like the reason you wear shorts is it's just much more comfortable. And and it's like so I feel like this sort of explains a little bit of the fashion, you know, movement. So I think that's been fun to watch. And then of course, it is always funny about when I've had Europeans come visit here, it is like they're interested in the weird. Coté (04:43.406) It's true, yeah. Brandon (04:56.506) American culture, like seeing a school bus going to like a Buckeys, going to a Walmart. There was a whole social media. I mean, clearly somebody that should be an influencer for software-defined talk. He went to Costco and the review was like, This is the greatest store ever made. And I was Yeah, I mean it is. Like, welcome, welcome to America. But like I I feel like I do kind of feel bad that the United States is like like because when you go to Europe, you see like so much history. Like ever there's history everywhere, right? Everything seems like Matt (05:10.723) Ha ha ha. Brandon (05:24.7) has some type of external meaning, right? And there's some type of great event or historical event that you should be recognizing about humanity. And here we have I what else was the other thing? Like people went to the Waffle House. They're like they've never had food like that. And I was like, so it's it is kind of weird what we export, right? I'm like, I don't know what to say. I'm like, I'm glad everyone's enjoying it. But I'm a little bit like, maybe we should build some like castles or something. Like maybe we should have some of that over here. Coté (05:27.799) Mm. Matt (05:50.616) Like maybe I don't know, we should in invest in in some culture or something. Brandon (05:55.709) Yeah, I don't know. I mean, like, we're so I mean, it's like when people are hitting the buckies on thirty-five, I'm like, maybe I don't know, maybe we throw up a castle. Maybe we just something. Like maybe we throw up something historic. Make it look historic, you know? I mean, because it feels wrong. It feels like we should be offering more. But I think everyone's having a good time. And I also wanna the Scottish Army somehow congratulations to the Scottish. They have somehow evidently drank all the beer in Boston, which I thought was like wasn't possible. They interviewed some Boston. bar bar owners. They said this is like twice as much beer as they sell on Saint Patrick's Day, which I would have thought would have been like, you know, I thought some of these records would stand for the test of time. But evidently y Matt (06:35.565) Well may may maybe it's it's like a seasonal thing, you know, like Saint Patrick's Day, they're gearing up, they got some spares, they got some reserves. You know, this one they were like, Well we'll just you know, we'll just have the standard fare and they're like, my god, it's you know, Saint Patrick's Day in June. only with the Scots Coté (06:40.854) Mm. Coté (06:51.31) Yeah, they're they're Brandon (06:51.368) I don't know. It's it sounds like it has overwhelmed I I think it's called the Tottenham Army. I don't know, hopefully I got that right, but evidently they have not seen a group that can drink this much alcohol. In B, this is Boston. Like I feel like this like if you just said to me like we got to put up some cities that can consume alcohol, Boston's the top five United States. I'd be like, I don't know of the number one, but I'd be like, these people, yeah, these people can take down some beer. Matt (07:04.203) This is Boston. Matt (07:12.449) You gotta throw in like a Milwaukee or something, but yeah. Brandon (07:16.06) Right. And so for them to just come in and get crushed, right, to the point the bar owners are like getting extra deliveries. I I I mean, I'm just like, this is I'm a little shocked. So I'm shocked to the point I'm impressed. And then of course maybe I'll end on this one for you, Kote, is there's an orange bus. So the Netherlands, their color when they not their national colors, but their color of their football uniforms are it's orange, and there's this bus that I guess travels around the world and somehow they got it over here and they're just driving the bus. Coté (07:21.004) Like, please stop. Matt (07:25.057) Have have you thought about wine? Coté (07:36.195) Yeah, yeah. Brandon (07:43.974) And then like I don't I can't remember what they're called. Like s I'm just calling them the Orange Army. They follow the bus to the game 'cause it's pretty cool to watch. So I don't know. I don't know, Kote, if you've ever seen the orange bus driving around Amsterdam, but sounds like you should get out there for a big match and do it. Coté (07:54.401) I I d you know, I'd may I I should be able to find it 'cause it's pretty small country. Just figure out where it is and go go drive and and go see it. But yeah, and you know, we've we've we've of course seen the the I th I I'm sure there's people who are are equally whatever, but like living here, like e everyone knows the Dutch when it comes to like their their their football songs and partying or just like Matt (08:03.275) Like, it's down the street. Coté (08:16.866) Top tier, some of the best. And and I saw some video where they I don't know I don't know the the the Dutch for the words, but they sang their their football song, which is just fantastic. You just see a sea a sea of orange people bouncing up and down all singing in unison about, you know, staying off your medication so you can go crazy. And Brandon (08:35.326) I love it. I listen, I've loved every bit of it and I'm glad it looks like everyone's having a good time from what I can tell. So hopefully it'll be continue to be a great tournament. Hopefully they'll get the beer reloaded in Boston for the rest of the matches. So I mean, you know, if there's one thing the United States should be able to provision, it's more beer. So I hope that happens. Coté (08:51.342) That's right. Well, you know, I hope I hope that we do a little cultural ambassadorship. That's the word that I was looking for. And by we I not me, I guess, but just like a little like just see past the borders and in what what things are actually you know, just go to Bucky's, go to Costco. That's that's the real America. Never mind never mind all this other stuff. Matt (09:11.715) I'm so sorry. Coté (09:15.98) And you know, then of course there that's that's the other thing is like you know when when you are of the thing being touristed, you you have lots of embarrassment and possibly feelings about it. But really it's it's sort of like, you know, if if you're if you're a tourist over here in Europe and you go see, as you would say, all the castles, Brandon, everyone around here is like, Yeah, castles. Whereas, you know, you come around here and it's pretty amazing to see all this stuff. So it's you know. Castles, Buckies, I think they're probably equivalent. Brandon (09:49.758) Alright, this episode is sponsored by Sentry. Applications break in all kinds of ways. Crashes, slowdowns, regressions. The stuff you only see once real users hit it. Sentry catches all of it. That's S E N T R Y. You get traces, replays, errors, profiles, and the details around them like stack traces, commits, releases, and the developers who broke it, all in one connected view. So you're not jumping between tools trying to figure out what happened. Sentry shows you how the request moved, what ran, what slowed down, and what the user saw. Sear, Sentry's AI debugging agent, takes it from there. It uses all of that sentry context to tell you the root cause, suggest the fix, and can open the PR. It also reviews your PRs for you and flags break and changes with a fix ready. Try it free at centry.io. That's S E-N-T-R-Y.io and tell them that we sent you. They have a free dev plan and listeners of the show can use the code STT26 for $100 in century credits for new users. And of course, we thank Century for sponsoring our show. Coté (10:50.37) Well, speaking of trying to see beyond the US government into the the delicious interior of of the country, I think it seems like last week the the the let's see if I can remember the idiom. The chickens came to roost on Anthropic talking about how they're gonna destroy the world. And and the the US government was like, well, why don't I fucking do something about that? And now Matt (11:07.869) Ha ha ha. Brandon (11:08.509) Yep. Matt (11:15.597) Yeah. Coté (11:17.024) Now the the the the thing that's confusing there is I think the chattering class, which is just w kind of consensus, is like, mm, as I was just going on about, they're a bit of a a a chicken little about the skies falling and stuff. And so it's hard to kind of judge like how how world and civilization destroying they actually are. And then on the other hand, it's like, mmm. This government really hasn't proven themselves ever to be a responsible steward about anything, let alone something as crazy as a as a frontier model, that that they need to understand. So I don't know. I d like best case scenario in the best case. All all I can figure with the US government saying, like, okay, only US nationals can use fable or or or whatever. And and therefore cutting it off for everyone, even though Anthropic released it on like Tuesday, whatever whatever, like a few days ahead of this, is maybe there is some responsible person deep inside the NSA or you know, whatever it is nowadays, and they're like, Hey, we should do something. And then that would be wise and responsible. Or it could just be someone in the Department of War who's like, Hey, check out I'm gonna fuck with them next. And they're just like doing something with it. So it's hard, hard to know. Brandon (12:36.775) But all indications are is what's weird about it is it sounds like and again, all we have is the public reporting. So it's like, you it's not like we're the Wall Street Journal or New York Times. Like we don't have we don't have boots on the ground in this case. But all the reporting indicates that it was Amazon, no less, who made the phone call. You know, if you well, they picked up the red phone and were like, We can't have this out here. It's gonna cause too many problems. And they showed some evidence and it seems to be so I don't you know. Coté (12:52.622) Mm. Brandon (13:06.529) I'm saying the general consensus amongst the tech community is that the evidence presented that allowed them to quote unquote jailbreak it does not seem to be sufficient or all that different than what you can do with other models. Now, I don't know, you can debate that, but I guess it's like one of these situations where I feel like everyone involved in this situation is conflicted in some way. Like why? I mean, I guess we just start with Amazon. Like They invested in anthropic. So why would they call the US government and be like you have to take it down? Seems a strange Coté (13:37.313) May maybe maybe they found the all all I can think of is they found some some hack in like the firmware of all of their servers and they're like, We need nine months to go like to each of those racks and hook a wire to it and do like maybe they were just freaking out and you know, it it would have to be something like that, because the case you make is is is right, Brandon, is financially they make more money the more AI there is. So why would you want to stop it? Matt (13:46.603) Yeah. Yeah. Matt (14:04.583) Yeah, but Brandon (14:05.181) Well I don't know, I maybe Matt, you're the one. Like I I mean 'cause what you said is completely reasonable in Kote. And I think if that were the case, it would have leaked out. Like they would have said like they found a catastrophic hack that was available that that's gonna affect all the Amazon servers. Then I'd be like, Okay, I get it. So I don't know, Matt, you're in the security community in the world. Like, is any of like this like anything like this being discussed? Matt (14:13.342) No. No. Like Matt (14:26.861) Well, n not at my level, of course. I mean, yeah, I trust me, I don't have like you know, I don't have the secret, you know, red phone or anything like that. But I mean, if you think about the sort of thing that would freak Amazon out is immediately somebody got a hold of, you know, fable, mythos, whatever, and started saying, I want to jail break nitro, which is the you know, the the virtualization layer that that that Brandon (14:30.245) Mm-hmm. Coté (14:52.907) Mm, right. Brandon (14:53.927) Yeah, makes sense. All of Amazon basically, yeah. Yeah. Matt (14:54.963) underpins EC2 and S all of Amazon, basically. Yeah. All of Amazon. And if if something something popped, you know, that's the sort of thing where like, my God, you know, Amazon is compromised and there's a lot of Amazon out there. And and it's something at that level, or or even like the expectation that someone's trying to do that. would would definitely make Amazon go into more of a like self preservation mode. Just because they're invested, like they they can they can long term this thing. You know, it's like, you know, you can't use Mythos for you or Fable for, you know, a month. That doesn't affect Amazon long term. what what affects Amazon long term is if it yeah. Coté (15:36.703) Mm. Yeah, yeah. Brandon (15:37.949) All right, but let's let's game theory this out. Okay, let's say the red phone with the phone call was just what you said. It's a catastrophic existential error, I don't know, some type of compromise inside Amazon AWS. Okay, let's just say that's what happened. If that were the case, one, it's it's incredible that it hasn't leaked. People are like, We if we tell this, we can't tell anyone. Okay. One, that's amazing that would not leak. And two, I think if that were the case, that anthropic wouldn't come out so hard. Matt (15:52.599) Yeah. Brandon (16:08.206) Against against essentially against this kind of like, you know, if you will, immediate Matt (16:10.989) Well they have to. They they they have to. Like if if if if they just kinda roll over, I mean Brandon (16:14.106) But why no, but I think I I do okay, hear me. No, but no, I guess I would say like if if a well, I don't good I guess let me ask the question. I ca I tend to believe that if anthropic was given evidence of like, hey, because of the whole thing they did with what Glasswing, I even is that what it's called? Anyway, if they were given evidence that like, hey, this uncovered a vulnerability that's so serious it's gonna jeopardize, you know, most of the computing infrastructure, at least of one of the major cloud vendors. Matt (16:31.223) Yeah, yeah. Brandon (16:42.448) I feel like they would be like, Yeah, let's let's just quietly rework it. Like I don't I you know, so I don't think they would come out as hard being like, Hey, don't regulate us this way. This is wrong 'cause they're so I don't know, maybe I'm being too generous there for anthropic, but go ahead. Matt (16:58.113) Well, or I mean it it it's likely it's probably somewhere in the middle where like, you know, through Glasswing, which was, you know, the the private access to to Mythos, you know, probably something like, Well, this is a theoretical attack on Nitro, or, you know, this this you know, this could unhook, you know, give everybody access to EC two instances anywhere. And you're like, Whoa, that sounds terrible. Like, no, no, no, it's just a theoretical attack. It's like, well You know, we've seen how fast CVEs to exploits have moved. And if somebody has wind of this, you know, we we you know, we need to fix it, you know, we need to fix the hypothetical before and anthropics were like, No, no, no, it's just hypothetical. And like, dude, you open this Pandora's box and now you've got your hands over the entrance saying, you know, don't let it out. You know, and and so like Amazon's like, no. And and Anthropic's like, we're gonna do it anyway. And then, you know, Amazon's like, fine, we'll shut shut the whole thing down. Brandon (17:43.278) Yeah. I know he's mm-hmm. Matt (17:53.472) And so it's like it doesn't even have to be a real exploit at this point. Exactly. Coté (17:56.283) Like go complain to mom. Brandon (17:57.521) Just just a theory of an explanation. Well, then we have then, you know, the next conflicted group is like just the United States government. I mean, to say it's conflicted, it's probab it's it's probably too understated, but you know, it's just hard to read there. It's like anthropic and the United States government have been like, you know, they've been fighting now for like months. So it's like I I mean, you know, is it just a chance for them? I mean, maybe it's the perfect kind. I I guess another way to look at it politically is Amazon getting the good graces of the administration. They make the phone call, right? Matt (18:04.46) yeah, they're they're untrustworthy. Matt (18:14.294) Right. Coté (18:25.421) Mm. Brandon (18:27.248) And they're just trying win they're trying to win status with the the government. And and they just say, Hey, look, we found this thing. We're not sure necessarily it's a catastrophic, but we're worried about it. And then you know and then somebody inside the somebody inside the administration is like, that's exactly what we needed. We need to take the we need to show anthropics who's in charge. And then that becomes the reason they shut it down. So Matt (18:27.285) Sponsor a fight. Matt (18:37.493) AWS dot gov Matt (18:47.233) Yeah, and a but even even in the case where like there's a real exploit, anthropic can't be like, Yeah, we we're cool with this. You know, they they have to fight back. They have to at least give a show of fighting back, or people will be like, Dude, what's with anthropic? They give up you know, they they they never stand up for themselves. You know, how trustworthy are they? You know, they ha they have to show some resistance. Coté (19:08.565) Mm. Brandon (19:10.982) All well let's go now we to the anthropic situation. It's like, okay, they sort of came out originally and were like, hey, we want to be the safe people. And so, but now they've gone the other way. Like this is all a lot of other people accusing them of like playing the regulatory capture game where it's like, okay, not only do they not like this type of regulation, but I guess Dario has written a very long, a very long essay, which I I recommend you summarize with Claude, outlining what types of regulation they would want. Which is like FAA style, which they keep saying, which essentially you gotta like you've gotta put your model through like a set of tests and it has to be quote unquote approved before it can be released, which basically, you know, would mean that only the largest companies in the world that could like afford an FAA, you know, type validation would ever be able to build the model again. So you just sort of like anybody that's in the quote unquote in the garage, like the chances that you'd ever be able to have the time or the money. Matt (19:57.601) Mm-hmm. Matt (20:05.283) Or or or Chinese. Brandon (20:07.684) Yeah, I mean you just like it just takes a whole set of people, just can't do it. I mean, it's just like it's like any type of regulation, right? It's like when you're trying to sell simpler, like when you're trying to sell SaaS software to the government, and they're like, do you have the special compliance? You know, the and you're like, no. And they're like, I can't remember, I just forgot the name of it. I'm sure Matt knows it. And it's like, gotta have like a certain compliance thing. And if you don't, they're like, Well, we can't sell do you and you're Okay, well I'll get that and you're like, Okay, well it's gonna be three years and four million dollars. You're like, All right, I don't I don't think we can do that. We don't have the our our our whatever Matt (20:34.731) Yeah. Let's go raise around. Brandon (20:37.776) Yeah, it's like I guess we're not gonna sell these. So I I mean, so again, like, are is is that is anthropic, like I don't know. I mean, again, both things can be true. They can say this is what we believe is true, but it also is very convenient for them as it kind of locks out new foundation models. So I don't I don't these situations feel like impossible to referee. You're just like everybody's conflicted. There's probably some type of issue here. I kind of feel like nothing will happen here. I feel like six or seven months will go by. Fable will be out there and it'll just go water under under the bridge. Kote, what's your take? Coté (21:10.613) Well well y I mean, you know, since since the US administration's involved, it'll in two weeks it'll be resolved. it it'll it'll be fine. Brandon (21:16.172) There'd be a memo of understanding that they write their side Coté (21:20.681) Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there there's g isn't there gonna be like some UFC fights on the White House lawn and that'll happen and no one will remember all of this. It'll it'll it'll yeah, see? There there you go. What Brandon (21:29.564) But do we even I KT, maybe put it this way, like is there s like if you were in charge, if you were the czar of of this, like is there even a right solution here? Like, is there even a possibility of like I I kind of almost come at it like, listen, we're just going down this path. Like it's sh it's just gonna be extremely messy. Like, sure, sure, maybe we could have planned it out, but that time for that has long since passed. Coté (21:48.012) Well Coté (21:53.738) I I mean I think I think you know the I I think Bruce Schneier wrote something several weeks ago. And I don't know, he's a security person, right, Matt? He knows what he's talking about. And and I think I think his he had a he had a good Brucey kind of like take, which was like Brandon (22:04.197) Yeah. Yes he has. Matt (22:05.12) Yeah. Something like that. Coté (22:13.675) We should take these things seriously, but like doing it all in this weird secrecy cat and mouse game thing is not helpful, right? Like it it makes things weird. So I think I'm sure, well, I'm confident there are some cases where you want security done in at least a delayed sort of openness. But in with something like this, you really should be talking about like what the deal is. Because just as we went over, if Matt (22:34.2) Yeah. Coté (22:43.477) If no no deal, if no thing ever emerges, then it just kind of adds to the what's the opposite of credibility? The incredibility to be punished about it? Yeah. You're just like next time you're just like, I don't know, it's some billionaire bullshit mixed with the US administration. And what the fuck do you expect to happen? Right? Like it's all these billionaires detached from reality, and then you got like the ultimate detached from reality entity, the current US administration. Matt (22:54.731) Incredulousness? I don't know. Yeah. Coté (23:12.786) So I I gonna go get like a big ass drink at Bucky's and just forget about this shit. Matt (23:18.615) I'm gonna go watch some some circus and eat my bread. Coté (23:21.833) Yeah, yeah. So like there there's there's a I guess I guess to summarize what I'm saying, there's there's a very real danger of this cluster of this b the people in this big cluster fuck not being taken seriously in the future. Right. Like and the worst case scenario is if it turns out that actually it was warranted and it is a big deal, but then we never hear about what it was, then you don't get any credit. Brandon (23:22.266) Yeah. Coté (23:50.304) Right. Like you you don't you don't get credit for like saving the world if no one knews you knew you did it. And you just kind of end up looking like an idiot in tights. Right. So like you gotta like document it afterwards and kind of market your awesomeness. Otherwise, I don't know. It's it's Brandon (24:05.947) Well that's the other part, I guess. two things. One I want to go back and at least correct myself. Fed ramp is what I was looking for before. Fed ramp r regulations. yeah, you just if you've ever been asked to like get your Fed ramp, you know how expensive that is. But then on the second thought I guess is just too. It's like I don't know the pace of like exactly the model, but it always just feels like it's like, well, six months from now, like the newest model is always replicated, it feels like in about six months time by like either an open source model or Coté (24:12.299) There you go. We we need FedRamp three A six two. Brandon (24:35.289) some other lab. So it just feels like, well, you know, at the at best case you have a few months here until somebody either n either another model's created in the United States or another model's created somewhere, likely China or somewhere, and it's just like everyone has it. So, you know, it's it's like it's coming either way. Right. It's like no I mean someone's gonna create it that isn't that's gonna ignore their regulations. Coté (24:41.133) Yeah. Matt (24:53.386) Exactly. Coté (24:53.791) I think I think yeah. I think I think I think you're right. The six months is the AI industry's two weeks. It's just like the the the cycle that they operate. Well, speaking of out-of-touch billionaires, I I I I need I need I need you to you're a big you were a big Cursor fan, Brandon. Now Cursor, through whatever weird situation we kind of mentioned it whenever this happened, but SpaceX, they of course IPO'd last week. And apparently that was a big deal. Brandon (25:02.411) Yeah. Matt (25:06.563) Trillionaires. Brandon (25:13.274) Yeah. Coté (25:24.021) maybe biggest ever or whatever. And and and then and then they closed out buying cursor for sixty billion in stock, which probably is a good deal at at the moment. But I I I was I've you know, when it came out, that that they were interested in cursor, it's gotten me thinking and also about, you know, other companies. Like I know the the SpaceX people, they got the AI in Tesla. I SpaceX is just all of it now, right? Just big thing. Brandon (25:25.723) Yeah. Matt (25:51.926) Yeah. It's Star Lake, yeah. Brandon (25:52.709) Well, Tesla's still separate, but everything else is inside SpaceX. Coté (25:56.002) But but I've been thinking, like, why do they need their own AI stuff? Like it seems like what are you gonna like why wouldn't you just I mean, here here I am the don't build your own application platform person, but like can't you just like go download Olama and use that? Matt (26:03.875) Well Matt (26:14.819) Well, you know, if if if your theory is that AI is gonna control everything in the future and you wanna control everything, you kinda have to build your own. Brandon (26:25.327) Yeah. Well I do think, I mean, in this case, you know, Elon Musk is it's easy to punch it and it's like this seemed to be a a well executed plan, right? So going back in time is that they did the like first they did like, okay, we're gonna buy you for sixty billion dollars. We don't have the money now, but we're gonna agree to this ten million dollar breakup fee. So that's sort of like so so they kind of went into this knowing that like, hey, I'm gonna have the money, I'm gonna have the money eventually, right? Coté (26:51.477) This is like a GameStop buying blockbuster, maybe. Maybe that's what they're doing. Brandon (26:53.805) Right. And it's like, okay. And so and it makes sense for cursor, because I think cursor I don't think anyone else's calling cursor to buy them, which is also kind of a weird situation. It's like there's one person that'll probably pay sixty billion for you and there's everyone else that'll pay nothing. Right. So that's like a weird kind of thing. And then but I guess you kind of as you follow it through, it's sort of, you know, you know, Elon Musk and and the team have like stood up whatever Colossus. They have the data centers, right? They do not have a good model. Everyone seems like the Grok is like, you the Grok of Ole is dead. Matt (27:02.433) Not for sixty billion. Brandon (27:23.725) And cursor has all the traces. Well, well, I think I think it's even for that, it's kind of fallen by the way side. So gr and so now of cl of course, too, you say to yourself, where's the money? The money's in coding and software development. So cursor has all the traces, right? They probably have the biggest set of traces, or at least one of them, of all the the various ways that people, I guess, like like me and tens of millions of others, right? Writing code and ultimately getting it to the way that we like it. So that's basically some type of like RL learning. Matt (27:24.035) It's good for some things. Brandon (27:52.645) So they have all that data. So now they're gonna combine that with a good data center, and you have a cursor brand that isn't groc, that doesn't have all the negativity there. So I think it I mean, I think it makes sense. And then of course, too, you're kind of like you know, this is the thing I used to say with Zoom. It's like you're you're kind of playing with like this like weird monopoly money. So they go public and now they're up something like 50, 80 percent since then. So it's like, yeah, it's a huge number, but it's like Coté (28:01.975) Yeah, huh? Brandon (28:20.066) It's kind of all just fake money, right? It's just like I get the money, I I I I I'm worth one point five trillion. Now I'm almost worth two trillion. So I'm giving you a tiny fraction of that. Of course, that's more money than any of us could ever spend in our lives. But in this situation, it's like it's kind of pocket changes. It's just like for sixty billion dollars, like, why not? And so so I guess the question going forward is can they execute the whole plan? Can they use this the actual data from cursor to train a good model? And then they can they keep cursor, if you will. Matt (28:22.157) Yeah. Brandon (28:49.766) free of of all the brand kind of issues with grok so that people will actually use it going forward. So it's like okay. I mean like all reasonable things. It all seems like a reasonable bet to to make. Matt (28:53.859) Toxicity. Coté (29:02.293) Yeah, yeah. I I mean I I guess I guess the thing that my head has started clunking on, like also also with Facebook, who like, you know, they they have all sorts of AI stuff going on is and may maybe they're a better example of just like I look I look at the I I try not to look at, but I I think about the the meta, the Facebook in business, and I think I don't understand why you need to build your own AI. Just like just sell more ads, right? Like you're really, really good at what you do. And and it's it's it's Matt (29:24.195) Ha ha ha. Coté (29:32.372) It's a, you know, there there is there is the path where kind of like a conglomerate, right? Like you want to build out a brand new line of business. Like Amazon does this. Even the big enterprise software companies, like, why does Microsoft have Xbox? That doesn't make any sense. And yet there it is, right? So like why why does Amazon have AWS? Also doesn't make any sense, but there it is, right? Like, and so you could, you know, it's perfectly fine. Brandon (29:48.186) Right. Yeah. Matt (29:48.247) Yeah, well not for long. Coté (29:59.648) Whatever it is the the the way that you make money with AI is gonna be in the next 30 years, we're gonna be part of it. And we think that means we need to have our own model. You know, in addition to satellites, rockets, tunnels, robots, cars, like you start to become like a Korean c conglomerate and you know, kind of weird. but but with the Facebook thing, it's kind of like, yeah, just just sell ads, man. Like you you don't you really don't need your own your own model. I don't even like because you're not even it doesn't even seem like you're gonna be in the business of selling the model to people. I mean you you sure you're gonna be using it yourself, but you could probably just get that for free from somewhere in instead of building it on your own. Matt (30:43.8) Mm-hmm. Brandon (30:43.972) Yeah, I I tend to agree with you. I think it's just, you know, Ben Thompson's written about this extensively. It's just like and you could apply this a little bit to Google. It's like sometimes the founders of these companies are almost like unhappy with the businesses that generate infinite cash. They just they don't like advertising. They don't that the fact that it's made them extraordinarily wealthy isn't enough, right? They just they just don't they just feel like that's not a business they want to be in. And I think that's sort of what goes on with Zuckerberg. It's like that's the whole like when he renamed the company Meta and the whole idea of when he the whole of the glasses and the Matt (30:58.829) Kinda makes Apple look smart. Brandon (31:13.348) whatever the quest and all that. And it's just like didn't need to do any of that either. Right. It was sort of like and I think we all kind of knew when we saw it, like whenever whenever you saw the demos, like I we kind of joked about on a lot of on the on on on the show. But it's just I mean just more simply it's just like at no point were you like, I'm gonna go get this. I'm gonna go get one of these things. We're gonna host the podcast all through the the goggles and none of us are gonna have legs. You know, and it's just like, but I think it's just one of those things where it's not satisfied. And I guess and maybe the financial side of it is is maybe more simple. It's like maybe this is like peak narrative capitalism, right? Like it's sort of like the discounted cash flow team. All the MBAs that are good at that. It's like they keep running the models and they're like, the model doesn't support that. And then the stock market goes up. And then they're like, we ran it again. Now it definitely doesn't support it. And it's like and the stock goes up. So it's like I just think that whole group of people have been put to the side. It's like we don't care. Like we don't care what your models say. It's just Matt (31:48.567) Yeah. Brandon (32:10.766) The money goes and that's what I think if you're Facebook, it's like you're trying to get part of that. So just making a really profitable ad business doesn't give you like this kind of multiple of like, I'm putting people on Mars. And it and again, like as crazy as it sounds, it's like seems unlikely, but people keep pushing the stock higher. And I think that's the incentives that executives are ultimately reacting to. Matt (32:23.127) Ha ha Matt (32:34.5) A and there's the the nonstop f you know, fe FOMO of of This is the next big thing. Everyone says it's the next big thing. We have to have a strategy that makes us front and central to whatever the next big thing is. And like everybody's in. And, you know, we were starting to have enterprises peel peel back and they're like, wait a second. We there's no ROI on any of this for us. And you're asking us to, you know, pony up hundreds of, you know, 10 tens of thousands of dollars per employee a year for something that we don't have any value on. And they're like, this is the next big thing. And so that's the tension. It's like, am I missing out? Am I missing out? Because like, you know, I I looked at the the SpaceX IPO stuff and I was like, God damn it, this thing's gonna be huge, but I didn't invest because I was like, I just feel like it it just doesn't make any sense, right? I mean what what what are they trading at now? Like a hundred and fifty X revenue? Brandon (33:33.838) Yeah, well it's funny because you they don't I think it's something like they make on the order of like eighteen billion dollars a year, which is lot of money, but it's you know doesn't s support that valuation. But even anthropic is making more, you know, and then so that's what's kind of interesting. So I mean I'm talking about I'm revenue wise. I'm not talking about mate, you quote unprofitability, totally different situation. But I I I don't know. I mean it's you know it and of course like then everyone wants to say like it's a bubble, but like Matt (33:45.269) Well yeah, Matt (33:51.104) Yeah, yeah. Brandon (33:58.542) I mean, people have been saying that for a long time. And maybe Tesla itself is the best example. It's like people have been saying Tesla's overvalued. I don't even know how long the company's been open, fifteen, twenty years. And it's like if you shorted Tesla, you have gone bankrupt like 17 different times. So so again, like you may have your spreadsheet and you may have your well found assumptions and you may be f absolutely sure that financially doesn't make any sense, but man, you have lost a tremendous amount of money. Coté (34:27.543) Well, I'm I'm thinking based on what we're saying, and may maybe there's some enough countercases to this, but but normal people don't make models. It's only only like weird, strange organizations and people, right? Like Microsoft, I mean I I they I think they do something, but you know, whatever. They don't make models, right? That that are widely used. IBM, they've got like granite or something, but whatever. Brandon (34:39.161) The finance people. Yeah. Matt (34:48.824) Yeah. Coté (34:54.113) They obviously both of these organizations obviously don't pour in the money ta that it takes to get like the big model. And on all the companies, right? it it's only like open AI, Anthropic, and I I'm I I I Matt (35:08.257) And Facebook and Google. Brandon (35:09.303) And Google, right? Yeah. Coté (35:10.249) Right, right. Exactly. The crazy people, right? The ones that are not quite normal. They and they might be crazy is the wrong word. They're they they have an extreme unnormal dimension. And in some cases it's because they have monopoly money, as as in the game, not necessarily in some sort of illegal situation in their their their market. But they have just sort of infinite money, or they like are the bad scientists thing where they're just like, We gotta have this. I'm gonna try out every single thing and we gotta do this thing. Or what Matt (35:28.727) Sometimes both. Coté (35:40.143) Whatever is going on over at Facebook, they got that going on. and I guess there is is it is it minstrel? Like I I don't follow them closely enough. Minstrel, yeah. So they're they're up to something that maybe would disprove this normal people don't make models. And then whatever the Chinese people are up to. Brandon (35:46.859) Mm-hmm. The European, the French company, right? Matt (35:46.957) Mistral. No no N. Brandon (35:56.824) It's a small group though. It's a very I to your point, it's a very, very small group of people that make models. Coté (36:01.269) Yeah, yeah. So so, you know, the another thing is we bas we more or less have strange, potentially insane people making our future for us, which is probably the way it's always been. I feel like maybe if I remember the history of like computers up to about the early seventies, it was just a bunch of really boring normal engineering people in white short sleeve button up shirts who are like doing everything. And then it went kind of nuts after that. But Brandon (36:12.611) Yeah. Coté (36:30.613) You know, so I c I can see I can see I think you I think I don't know if it was you, Brandon, but I I'm sold on the the SpaceX thing. If you just understand it as the poor the point of this this organization is just to pursue batshit crazy things in in this, you know, the I guess Mars shots, as it were. And then so therefore AI seems like a crazy thing we could spend a lot of money on. and and that doesn't involve just, you know, instantly removing suffering of billions of people by spending money. But that's fine. Not in the probably not in their their S one as one of their corporate goals. Brandon (37:02.873) And also before we move topics, I do think I we just give credit to Cursor. I can't remember. I mean, I used to love Cursor, then I thought it was dead. Then I was like, I don't know, somewhere in the middle. But like it looks like it worked out for Cause I think when they there was the Google situation where I can't even remember what it's called. It was like soup or something. Anyway, one of the competitors got bought for a few million dollars, whose name I forgot. Look it up in a second. And we were all like, Cursor missed their window. I think, Matt, I'm sure you said that too. And it's like, well, it turns out, I mean, they they played Matt (37:15.487) It did. Matt (37:27.755) Yeah, yeah. Brandon (37:32.739) They held their hand close to the vest and at this very moment, even with like earnouts and like other financial sh shenanigans that could go on, it still seems like they're gonna make a ton of money. So I guess good for them. Matt (37:38.435) Ha. Matt (37:44.799) Absolutely. Yeah. They shot the moon. Yeah. Coté (37:46.145) Yeah, now they get to work with now they get to work with Elon Musk, which I think is what everyone wants to do and and probably enjoys. Brandon (37:51.16) Yeah, so I mean we'll see. Like may maybe next week I'll fire everyone and like won't let won't pay them out, but like I don't know. I mean I it looks like they should make their money. Matt (37:52.035) Ha. Matt (37:58.061) We we got years of lawsuits ahead of us. Coté (38:00.671) Yeah. Well, I i highly related. I I wanted to you know, I looked at it briefly, but we I've I've heard about this company Lovable, one of one of the great named companies of recent years. And it it looks like they reported they have half a billion dollars in in in revenue. you know, whatever, with the asterisks of who knows how they compute it and blah, blah, blah. I'm sure it's great. But I I I've looked at them every now and then and as I I wanna get your assessment, Brandon. It like it seems like It's it's like a cross between like we've got cloud code and maybe like cloud flare and Squarespace. And and it's it's almost like it's it's something and I mean this in in in a mostly good way, it's something beyond like a harness. It's like, what if you just went to a website and you didn't have to figure out how to assemble all of this stuff? And not only can we assemble the apps for you. But we have all the integrations and we can run it. I mean, it's kind of like the dream of like a sales force or a service now, where like you've got the platform and you can just tell the thing what you want it to do. Except it's much nicer. And then I also want to say they have when I was looking at their site their site today. Remember when I used to be an analyst and I would actually like know what these companies did, maybe even be brief by them. Anyways, they have a great piece of marketing where you go to their page and there's a chat window and it's like, what do you want to build today? And it lets you type into it, like I want to build something, and it even lets you like click the button, and then it pops up, well, you should sign up for an account with us, which is just like, whoa. But man, it's it's pretty enjoyable. Brandon (39:30.007) Okay. Matt (39:32.344) Ha ha. Brandon (39:34.029) Well did. I've seen a a live demo of this team presenting and like yeah, they're definitely in the they f they firmly are in the no code world, right? Where it's like you don't even you don't even really know anything about code at all. And so that's the Coté (39:43.863) Yeah. Coté (39:48.183) that's probably why no they list who it's for and one of the eight people it's for are founders, which in retrospect is kind of hilarious. Brandon (39:53.367) Yeah. But I guess that's the idea is like you don't Matt (39:55.573) you know, a and they're watching that that input box gated by the paywall and and they're like, Ooh, that's a startup idea. Brandon (40:01.642) Yeah. Coté (40:02.015) And it also it also follows you around. So if you go like eight pages, you look down at that box and it still has the thing you typed in. Brandon (40:09.368) So I guess like two thoughts around it. One, it it when I saw it, I was like, it did and maybe this is just like being prejudiced in some way. And sort of like I was just like, there's just no way this would ever build anything that was like production worthy. Right. Now, I don't know, maybe you can say the same thing about cloud code, but I feel like that's the opposite. Like I feel like there's plenty of examples there. So I think you have that side of it. and maybe this is the ultimate dream, right? This is the ultimate, like the business person just tells the computer what it wants to do. So like Matt (40:09.453) Course it does. Brandon (40:36.706) We've been talking about that for like, I don't know, 50 plus years in computing. So maybe that's what's going on there. But I also think it's interesting, and I guess this applies a little bit to this other company, Superbase, that has like done really well, is that the new growth model is just to have cloud code recommend your thing. Right. So I think if you're just in one of these AI tools, not cloud code, if you're just in one of one of any chat based AI tool and you say I want to build something and I need to save something. Ideally, you just as long as the the AI is recommending it, you're gonna get usage. And I think that's maybe where superbase and lovable are coming from. It's like, well, if you don't know anything, if you kind of type in, it's like, I'm not technical, I don't know anything. I want to build an app that does XYZ and I want you to do the whole thing for me. What should I do? And I think it probably just kicks you out to these tools. And you know, I it says it's a million new projects a week. That's where I would assume they're coming from. Is that like it's just being recommended for so Coté (41:10.975) Mm-hmm. Brandon (41:34.561) I don't know, you there's a lot of the whole growth marketer, growth hackers out there. So it's like if somehow you can get and I've noticed this myself, and I think maybe you have too, Kote, and maybe as you as well, man. It's like I've used Cloudflare Flare a lot more because it was recommended to me when I was doing projects inside of Cloud Code. And it was like you should do this. And I I like it. And before I was I hadn't really used it much. So maybe that's the new path to millions. It's like get Claude to really like your solution. Coté (42:01.997) Yeah. Brandon (42:03.059) And if it does, it'll probably work. Matt (42:03.239) Or yeah. Or AI SEO is the new path to wealth, which is, you know, you're not gonna be providing these things, but if you can poison enough LLMs and and get your you know, help people get their product into the recommendations, you know, that that's how you make the money. Coté (42:19.353) And and I I think I I think I think spread that there, I can so the the the the Cloudflare thing is interesting because I would never use Cloudflare on my own without AI. Like I would log into that console and I would be like, I'm out, right? Like I I don't I don't know what is going on here. But because they have a good API and because I can take screenshots of things and just give it to Claude and be like, just tell me what to type in, right? I end up Brandon (42:19.49) So so mm. Coté (42:47.847) using la a fair amount of their services, which then gets to the problem being solved there, which is I think in general that writing an and and the developers will say this and we can kind of turn it against them is like writing the code is actually a very small part of the overall application delivery. And it's all that infrastructure shit that's a that's an annoyance, right? You know, it's always a DNS problem, etc. Right? Like, and so Maybe the notion of like, even if you did were a founder and you didn't know how to code and you ask Claude to make something for you, Claude would say, Okay, now just take this zip file and go deploy it. Nice coding with you. And then the founder would be like, what? So like if you add in this integration where you don't even need to do what you and I, Brandon, would do, which is ask Claude to go do something, right? It's just like is built into it as a platform. Brandon (43:39.618) Right. Coté (43:41.737) Not to mention with like once you get to doing authentication, you just like fuck. Right? That that's Matt (43:47.107) Not not not a lot of R back in SSO in these are things. Brandon (43:49.528) We're all done. We're all done once we get the single sign on. Coté (43:52.108) Yeah, it's just like that's not fun for anyone. But you know, it could be it c it could be done there. So I maybe building up this platform, it really does get you to I I I could see how that could be a quite a valuable thing that it's essentially like, you know, Matt Ray in your pocket as a service. Like you've always got this person who can go and wire stuff up for you and they don't even give you shit about it or really even ask it. They're just like, give me the app, I'll wire it up, and now you can do the stuff. Brandon (44:17.078) Right. Maybe that's the whole thing with lovable. It's like where it doesn't you don't even know that you need to wire it up. That's the whole point. And then I want to go back to one of Matt's questions. No, it's like because I've hear a lot of people theorize this. It's like, they're gonna poison the LLM or they're gonna have the LL SEO the L L L I'm like, has anyone done that? Like, how does that actually work? 'Cause I think the LLM, I mean, ultimately, because of the idea of just like reinforcement learning, like the thing has to deliver. Or like the L L just won't do it. You know what I mean? At some point it'll be like, well, I'm not getting any signal this is working. So you can't just be like I or maybe you can. I don't know. I mean, maybe you can like maybe you could write a command line document that didn't do anything. Maybe the command line document that looks really good to the L but actually doesn't like you don't implement it, doesn't do anything. And is that like is LM gonna like be confused? Is it Matt (44:54.305) Well it doesn't have to not work. Yeah. Matt (45:04.6) But But that was never the point of SEO. The point of SEO is just to shape traffic, right? You're like, you know, we are we are a database startup. I'm gonna pump, you know, a million dollars into AI SEO to make sure that like we get recommended and then you know, it's not necessarily we don't work, it's just that you know, marketing dollars are affecting what what AI does. And that's that's the like dystopian future that we've already entered of you know it doesn't It doesn't matter what the best service is, it just matters what the AI recommends. Coté (45:40.618) Advertising. Brandon (45:40.888) I guess to a point, but I guess it's like Matt (45:42.571) No, that is the point. Like at no point has everyb everyone anyone ever said like AI has good taste. AI makes well informed decisions. No, AI just follows whatever it's been trained on. Brandon (45:51.532) Well, let me just say it this way. I mean, back back to the Cloudflare one, just going back to that, is like it recommends it, but it works. And it works like pretty well. And it's real simple. So if it recommended something else, if it recommended like honestly, even when it does recommend AWS or Google, I'm just like, I don't want to go on that console. So so I I I don't know. I mean, if it recommends something that doesn't I'm just making up some fictitious service. It makes you know, whatever, like acme whatever. If it recommends that it doesn't work, it's like you're not winning you're not winning anything, right? Like Matt (45:57.937) Right, right. But but is it the best solution? Matt (46:07.853) Ha ha. Yeah. Matt (46:17.783) Well sure, sure. But but my my my point is like there's plenty of things that work. And like if if if you go and say, I need web hosting, right? There are literally a hundred thousand places you could post your WordPress website and it would work. And so yeah, there's an overwhelming number of choices. Brandon (46:23.958) Mm-hmm. Okay, I see what you're saying, right? Yeah. Brandon (46:33.451) Yeah. Gotcha. That makes sense. So like there's like an overwhelming right like Stripe is a good one they talk about. Like it always recommends Stripe and there's probably plenty of payments processors out there, right? So Matt (46:43.415) But yeah, yeah. But I mean the yeah, Stripe is is well known. Lots of examples. You know, their SEO is probably fairly organic, but I'm saying if you're in a crowded field and you need you know, and your choice is well, do we develop a better product or do we spend more on marketing for AI? I'd spend more on marketing for AI. Brandon (46:49.463) Well stripe's good. I mean ch our people think it's good, right? Yeah. Brandon (47:06.795) Yeah, but even now I'm not even sure what that means when people say that. Like what like what are you gonna do? What I mean, you you gonna write more contact? Yeah. Matt (47:09.471) I I know, I know, that's what I'm saying. That is that is your growth opportunity. Go f fig go figure that out. At put s put your shingle out saying you're doing AI S C O and you'll make a killing. Brandon (47:19.031) All right, well th I'm gonna s you know what? We're doing that now. We're we have services. I'm not sure what we're gonna do, but like, okay. Like we we're in. Coté (47:25.257) I think I think you could probably eat out on that for a year by just saying you should have an LLMs.txt file on your website. Brandon (47:31.873) I was just that's exactly what I was thinking. It's like maybe you go into every room be guys, have you thought about L L S dot T X C? Yep, that's how that you know your AIs will love that. So Matt (47:41.229) Dude, you you can you can paste that sentence. You can turn that into at least an hour meeting. Brandon (47:46.488) Well, by by far and away, the best way to just like derail a meaning, seem smart and accomplish nothing, and be like when someone says MCP, be like, I don't know, guys. I think MCP is just too expensive. I think we should just use the command line. And then you just start and you just like get the whole group going down that. Like, there's nothing that will waste time and make you sound more intelligent than that. You're like, yeah, did some research on this. Have you guys read the Cloudflare blog? A lot of tokens being wasted by MCP. And you're like, I mean, who knows? Yeah, you're just like, Matt (48:07.423) Ha ha. I I I just I just hope you're paid by the hour. Brandon (48:15.773) I don't know. I think maybe we should think I think we should think a command line, a real a s a thin API with a command line that's gonna work a lot better. It's gonna save us a lot of tokens. Coté (48:23.479) Well, you know, one of the most popular command line things, it looks like over there in Curl Land, they're entering I guess it's very small there. They're entering the summer of bliss. And and I think I think Matt Ray, you highlighted the best part. it was like we're taking July off. and so, you know, we won't be replying to anything. But there there was a line that you highlighted, Matt Ray, which was which was what? Matt (48:49.85) man, you put me on the spot. then the there there's kind of a a QA format on the outline and said, But but what if there's an emergency? And it says, Well then you get to read about it in August or you can get yourself a support contract Coté (49:04.833) That's right. Excellent marketing. Brandon (49:05.791) When I read that, I thought this was like this is maybe the best marketing for an open source project that we have seen in a decade. I was like, Yeah, you're ex I mean that is it's like we are going on vacation because you are not paying it for us. And there could be a really bad thing. you know, if you and if you don't want that bad thing or you want to be able to call us, you know, here here here's Matt (49:11.331) Absolutely. Yeah. Matt (49:23.01) Yeah. Matt (49:26.785) like pro pro probably Fable be be freed up by then. There'll be you know Brandon (49:30.732) Yeah, it's just I I just but I mean in some ways it's just like why don't and it's also told in that perfect guess it's not so much European as Nordic because aren't they from Sweden, right? It's like it's just it just comes across in that perfect, I don't know, Northern European. It's like, yeah, that's just how it is. Like, you know, like kind of the Germans, like, that's how it is. Yeah, we're taking the month off. We'll see you. And then that's just how we work here. And it's like, yeah, well said. So kudos to them, marketers of the year. I know. They haven't figured out their AI marketing yet, but Matt (49:38.464) yeah. Matt (49:46.177) Yeah. That that's the way the world works. Yeah. Brandon (49:59.158) Marketers of the year. It's like pay them if you want them to be on your phone call. I love it. Coté (50:03.083) Well, you know something that people don't like hearing in their summer of bliss, Brandon, is bureaucracy. And so before everyone's summer of bliss begins, why why don't we go over some bureaucracy? Brandon (50:15.307) Well, for the summer of bliss, everyone needs to have stickers. And I sent some stickers to Gabrielle in Puerto Rico, some to Artem in California, as well as some for Hase Jesus because it or I think it's Jesse or Jesus, I can't even remember. But anyway, he he specifically wrote in he needed a bunch of stickers for conference season. That's what I like. So I sent it off to him in California. He also says he listens to while he rides his bike and he feels like when he's riding his bike he has a Matt (50:34.881) Yeah. Brandon (50:42.879) a great attitude and people like waving at him because 'cause he's enjoying the content so much. So I hope he's on his bike right now. I hope he's pushing up a hill in that low gear. And we just gave him a little extra energy to get up that hill. So so that's that's good. Also, B tells us that the American Express credit card insurance does work, but you gotta pay for it. You gotta like do it preemptively. If you pay the twenty bucks, sounds like it works pretty well. And also I would love to hear everyone hope Matt (50:48.119) Ha ha ha. Brandon (51:11.849) fleet they enjoyed the open observed interview that I did last week. But that's like, you that's the area I love. I'm always going to call it monitoring. I know it's observability, but it'll always be monitoring to me. But I know we have plenty of people in the listeners and in the Slack. I know we have people that from Grafana. I know we have some Datadog people. I would love to hear what you thought. Like, you know, did the the was the interview good? Did you have any comments on it? You know, things like that. I would I would love to do that. And then finally, I wanted to congratulate Matt (51:19.245) Ha ha ha. Brandon (51:40.993) Panther Labs, who we did an interview just a few years ago, they were, I guess, acquired by Databricks for like a I don't know, it was an undisclosed amount of money. But I guess at some point they were they were valued at over a billion dollars. So I just want to tell everyone, I'm just gonna lay the kind of like the open source people did for their marketing, I'm just gonna lay the facts out there. Panther Labs was on this the show's and did an interview two years ago. They were just acquired for lots of money. Matt (51:50.401) Sixty billion. Matt (52:09.795) Undisclosed amounts. Brandon (52:10.57) I mean, we're gonna have a little summer break, but if you want to, if you think you want an interview and you want money like that, just say and you could call us. You could send us an email and maybe we we can work something out. So, you know, there you have it. Coté (52:23.967) Yeah. Just send the dollar bucks and then and then Brandon will come out of vacation. Well, you know, after there there is something coming up in July that I'll be at. we are Developers Europe July eighth and tenth. I'll be there with my my friend co-worker Orin. I'm gonna be giving a talk I just found out on July 9th, about platforms, of course. Then there's gonna be DevOps Gross in September fourth to fifth. Brandon (52:27.478) That's right. Coté (52:53.099) You got the Cloud Foundry Summit, which I'm hoping I'll be speaking at in and you know, it's I don't not gonna say the where it is. It's the place it was two years ago. Heidel, can't pronounce it. lovely place. Anyways, that's September 21st to 22nd. It's two days. You'll notice the Cloud Foundry Summit, not the day. so that'll be nice. And then there's DevOps Days Rocky, September 22nd, the 23rd. That's Rockies, not just one of the mountains. Matt (53:20.247) Not just one. Coté (53:21.289) And then there's We Are Developers North America coming up September 23rd to 25th. We've got a discount code for that if you use DevPod 26. And there might still be some of those 25 free tickets left. if you want to go to softwaredefinedalk.com slash five seven seven, you can find a link to that. There's also a DevOps Days Rockies discount code that you can find at that URL. Then we've got DevOps Days Dallas on September 28th and 29th, DevOps Days Villaneu. September thirtieth to October first. I'll be at DevOps Days Istanbul giving the keynote there October twenty fourth. And then finally, what we've all been waiting for, the VMware user group in Orlando, October twentieth to twenty second. You can, you know, bring your your little plastic trick-or-treating pumpkin things and get geared up for Halloween so that when you get back, you can maybe give out some little Totskis and stickers and things like that. And kids will say, Ooh, I got a thumb drive. you know. I it's whatever you remember remember when thumb drives were a thing? I had like a whole box of those. Those were fun to collect. Matt (54:25.219) Still have a whole box of They're not going anywhere. Coté (54:28.189) Yeah. well, speaking of things that aren't going anywhere, Brandon, what do you have to recommend this episode? Brandon (54:35.648) Well, one of them already kind of did. I was just gonna recommend. I know there's not a necessarily a ton of sports fans, but I recommend everyone find a team in the World Cup, watch it. It's super fun. So hopefully your country's participating. If not, I'm sure you can find a team or country that you want to support. Also, I just want to report back. I think a while back I tried to use the digital ID at the airport, didn't work, but I just traveled this week. Fantastic. Great process. Just double click your iPhone, just click it like you're paying for something. Walked right through. of course the touch list is better, but for some reason the touch list was down. So that's just pretty close to no emul emulating touchless without actually doing it. And also, Kote, for you, we got a little real-time feedback from our European correspondent Henning on pronunciation. So here it is. So the French company is not called minst draw, it's called Mistral. So no no N in there. Matt (55:31.596) Said that. Brandon (55:31.615) which is in the south of so what it is, it is a wind in the south of Fran France that is quite cold. So in Europe, they don't need AC or ice. Their biggest fear is that a cold draft like the Mistral will blow in. So there you go. Hopefully I pronounced it right without the end, but there we have it, as always. Appreciate Henning. You know what? we need to give him he needs to come over here and we should make him tour America. That's what I'm that's what we need to do. He has so many corrections for us. We should make him come over here. Matt (55:56.739) Ha ha ha. He should come in the summer. You can go to Bucky's, you drive down I thirty five, go tubing. Brandon (56:00.874) Go to Bucky's. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna bring in the summer. That's right. We're gonna lo we're gonna put in a pickup truck full of ice. We're gonna blast at AC. We're going to Bucky's, going to Waffle House, we're gonna show some culture. So as always, I appreciate Henning's feedback. It's fantastic. Matt (56:15.071) All right. Show something. Brandon (56:21.738) Now Kote's on mute, so we're gonna have a little edit point here. So when so you need to take it from so you hold on, hold on. Yeah, give me a little edit point. So just like and three, two, one. Coté (56:27.009) I th I I think I think you we yeah, we could Coté (56:34.903) We we could bring him over here and we could show him all of the continental European culture that we've evolved over the past four hundred years and just like where it's gone. It'll be like, you know, the hot dog and hamburger and like just just Matt (56:41.421) yeah. Matt (56:48.245) I I I I think I think New Brunfels is the most European meets American intersection there is. Cause you've got all the old German stuff, there's a Buckies, and you got tubing on the river. Coté (56:55.99) Mm. Coté (56:59.798) Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. A a month in New Bronfels. Just really, really soak it in. Well, how about yourself, Matt Ray? What do you what do have to recommend? Brandon (57:02.592) Sure, that'd be good. I like it. Matt (57:10.843) my my my recommendation is the latest in in the Murder Bot Diaries series called Platform Decay. I guess these are novellas. They're so quick. I listened to the audiobook over the weekend. it's only like six and a half hours long or so, so definitely not not a full length book, I guess, but just entertaining. I could totally see it as like, you know, season eight of the am of the Apple TV series. So if you like if you like Murderbot, it's good. Keeps up the good work. Coté (57:45.304) Well, my recommendation is I I you know, you'll love this, Brandon. I decided I should move my blog, my whole digital operation to back to WordPress.com just because it's it's sort of like the Costco of blogs. It just has everything. I guess I should say Bucky's because that's what we keep saying, but it's got everything there. It works, it has a newsletter embedded in it. You know, it's nice. But it's not that. It's more of Not not not unexpectedly. And also what made me think about the the lovable thing more is pretty much all I've been doing, once you have the tier where you can get SSH, you just can like load up Claude and just have it do everything. Down to like like I spent some time, I was like, you know, when you've got the caption underneath an image, it doesn't look right. Can you make that light gray and like indented more? And it's like, sure. And like, I don't know if you've ever tried to edit like WordPress templates. Brandon (58:35.381) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coté (58:42.017) But it's a certain type of not fun, but you know, Claude doesn't care. It just goes in and does it instantly. And it'll also do all your settings. It's fantastic. It's it's it's it's a whole new fun experience to have. Now, my other recommendation, so Kim came back from the Camino de Santiago, you know, big big walk you have across Spain, and she brought back this Spanish cheese called Tetia cheese, which of course tetia is a Spanish for small breast. And so it looks like this little little piece of cheese with a little nipple on top of it, which is not why it makes it delicious. But it's it is a nice, delicious, creamy kind of mild cheese. Get a big hunk of it, put it on a slice of bread with some ham, and you got yourself a good good good stew going, good sandwich. But if you ha if you see that out and about in the world, it's it really is like go look it up on Wikipedia. It it looks like kind of like a little a little boob, with very sharp pointed boob, so maybe more like a hellraiser boob. that that you might encounter. But inside that Hellraiser boob is some delicious creamy cheese. you should check it out. It's good stuff. Well you've checked out another good stuff that doesn't have anything to do with Hellraiser or boobs, I guess. What which is Software Defined Talk. And this has been episode 577. If you go to software defined talk.com slash five seven seven, you can find links to all the stuff we mentioned, those conference discounts Brandon (59:59.21) Mm-hmm. Coté (01:00:10.455) Those 25 free tickets or however many are left for We Are Developers North America. There's all sorts of other things we didn't go over. You can find out how to join the Slack channel where we have lively conversation throughout the week. And with that, we'll see everyone next time. Bye-bye. Brandon (01:00:28.629) Right. Mostly well done. You know, Kote went at a point. Matt, what's going on? You fell out at the beginning. I don't know. I don't know. That Matt, Matt, we went over this thousand Matt (01:00:34.157) I the Riverside app, I made the mistake of using it. The browser is where it's at. I know. I you you need to remind me, like I'm like, Riverside. Brandon (01:00:43.881) You are fine a thousand infinity billion infin infinite dollars, imaginary dollars. So now Kote, I have Coté (01:00:49.591) Dollar bucks. Matt (01:00:49.635) W when we when we have our our cursor sell off to to our evil overlords, Coté (01:00:57.239) To to Paramount. Brandon (01:00:59.237) It's a fair amount. Kote, I had a suggestion for you though. I was I I know you could you do the other pod there with your friend Whitney. Have a su I have a a guest suggestion. I want you to I want you to take it seriously before you reject it outright. I think you should have your lovely wife on and I think she should tell the story of why she walked the what what is the Camino what's the Camino de Santiago? Is that right? Or 'cause I was I don't I just 'cause I'm Facebook friends. Coté (01:01:03.704) huh. huh. Coté (01:01:08.087) Yeah. Coté (01:01:17.995) Mm. Matt (01:01:22.039) Me no El Casino. Coté (01:01:23.607) Yeah. Brandon (01:01:28.701) You know, I was like, this is interesting. And then I have noticed and I this is the part I think would be real interesting, is that there have been several people I know and they're roughly I would say like in your wife's demographic that have done this. And I'm just I'm fascinated why, because I d I'm not personally that interested in walking it and I don't I don't that's not something I want to do, but I that would be a great opening question. Like why like why this trail and what is the appeal of it and then You know, I don't know, wherever the the wherever the interview goes from there. I think it would be a fun a fun what what we call it? Like a life just a li like a I was about to say lifetime episode, but like I don't know. Work life episode, I don't know, e existential episode. Yeah, real life episode. So Coté (01:02:02.376) Yeah, that would be great. We should Coté (01:02:09.962) Yeah, real real life episode. yeah, well I'll I'll s I'll see. I think I think I think she might come on there. and hopefully the questioning wouldn't get away from me. I wouldn't have my my co host. Brandon (01:02:20.201) Well, I think you have as you're gonna have Whitney on. You should have Whitney on there w with you, right? So she can help, you know. huh. Matt (01:02:20.397) Ha ha. Coté (01:02:23.808) that's that's that's what I mean is she might just be like, Okay, that was great talk for five minutes. Now let's get onto this asshole. Brandon (01:02:29.501) that's true. Well maybe not. Maybe well may maybe you need to do it personal. Maybe it's the the Kote Skotak episode we've all been waiting for. So you know me or I don't know, maybe maybe when you guys need an episode, maybe a Thanksgiving episode, end of year episode, you know, something along those lines. Coté (01:02:37.77) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we'll we'll we'll get her on there. Uh-huh. Love it. Yeah. I I think I think we'll look that up. Look it up. I think we'll do that. Brandon (01:02:48.445) Mm. Well would you I assume did you walk any of it? You said you just dropped her off. You didn't you didn't do? Coté (01:02:52.252) No, no, no. I I met I met her in L Leon, I I guess. Expose myself again to our correspondent. but yeah, even before I came, you know, there there was there was some hopes and dreams that I would walk part of it with her. And then and then I think maybe like three days into it I talked to her and she she was going over how great it was and she was like, You would not like this. and so I think it was determined it was not my style. so Brandon (01:02:57.557) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Brandon (01:03:20.361) I think that's true love. I think that's true love when a a spouse could tell so tell the other child's like, no, this is not a and and you and you're receptive to it. You're like, I will like you know me well enough that I believe you. I'm not going like I'm not gonna prove anything to you. So all right. Well, hopefully someone's listening to this episode and they're walking the Camino de Santiago right now. I guess I'll probably be wrong 'cause you're supposed to be like, you know, in in nature. But if you get bored and you want to listen to some tech talk, maybe you can listen to it. Coté (01:03:25.876) Not for you. Coté (01:03:34.495) Yeah, yeah. Brandon (01:03:50.035) So with that, thanks for everyone watching us on the stream, and we will talk to you next time. Coté (01:03:56.288) Bye.