Bryan Schwartzman: From the recording studios of reconstructing Judaism, welcome to Evolve, groundbreaking Jewish conversations. (singing) Max Buckler: It's something that's rarely discussed, but interacts with some really core liberal values like gender and autonomy. It deserves the full weight of the scrutiny of the community and the medical community. (singing) Bryan Schwartzman: I'm your host Bryan Schwartzman. And today I think we truly have a groundbreaking conversation. All right, I'll say it. It's a cutting-edge conversation and that's a little bit of a, of a pun intended. But, last joke. Very serious from now on, mostly. I'm talking about the ancient commandment of circumcision, the tradition of Brit Milah, which symbolizes the covenant between God and the Jewish people. And today, we have two guests. We have communication strategist, Max Buckler, who is the author of the Evolve essay, Be Honest About the Bris: A Jewish Call for Greater Integrity. And Max has been very active and vocal on this issue. Bryan Schwartzman: And we've also have as a treat bestselling author, Gary Shteyngart, the novelist and memoirist, journalist, whose article has been in a little publication you might have heard of called The New Yorker, which caused quite a stir. The article was called A Botched Circumcision and Its Aftermath, which details exactly that. How his circumcision as a seven-year-old immigrant from the Soviet Union went wrong medically. And how as a middle-aged man, complications resurfaced that left him in agony and put much of his life on hold. Incidentally, Max Buckler is connected to Gary, because Max reached out to Gary after Gary had his New Yorker piece, that got a lot of attention. Reached out to him on social media. You can actually make connections for real on social media, so there you go. Bryan Schwartzman: So, this conversation, we really look at circumcision from a couple of different angles. Max and Gary come with very different perspectives. Both Max and Gary try to walk a fine line in saying, they're not advocating against it, they're asking people to really think about it and examine all the facts. It seems to me in Max's case, at least personally, he might be advocating against it, but anyway, it's really a discussion from the point of view of two critics of circumcision, and, I think, critics of the idea that this is something that Jews, even liberal Jews, do without thinking about it too much. So, just to make things clear, this podcast, the Evolve project and reconstructing Judaism in general are not taking a position against, or even for, circumcision. When it comes to Jewish ritual and communal behavior, we think that no conversation should be off the table. And, we see this episode and this series, because it's part one of two, as fitting perfectly with Evolve's mission of bringing nuanced conversations on topics that matter to Jews and those who care about them. Bryan Schwartzman: So, next month we'll be interviewing a mohel, Rabbi Kevin Bernstein, who will offer a different take on what we're going to hear today. So, now comes the part where I tell you this episode can be tough to listen to at times, somewhat graphic, maybe not as graphic as the, um, as Gary's New Yorker article itself, but not easy subject matter. So be warned, especially if you've had complications from a circumcision, it might be a particularly difficult listen. And, at about the 25-minute mark, Gary describes a racist speech given to the American Medical Association in the 1950s, arguing in favor of circumcision. The speech that Gary quotes from, or paraphrases, contains a racial slur. There's a point to this that he's making, but I just wanted to give a heads up that it's there. Bryan Schwartzman: As a reminder, all Evolve essays are available to read for free at evolve.reconstructingjudaism.org. And you can find essays on a range of topics, really important to Jewish life right now: the environment, racism, Israel/ Palestine, gender. That's evolve.reconstructingjudaism.org. Okay, one final content warning, I promise. There's a little bit of a digression in here that takes about five minutes about an aspect of circumcision that is practiced within certain Orthodox communities. It's called, I believe, if I'm pronouncing it correctly, metzitzah b'peh. And, just for a definition, it's a practice in which a mohel uses oral suction to remove blood from an infant's circumcision wound. And there have been news reports, especially in New York state, of this practice leading to serious medical complications, in whatever number of cases. Bryan Schwartzman: And, it's found its way into the political arena and our guests go back and forth on the air over whether it is still legal in New York. And as far as I can tell it is still legal, with certain conditions. So, we're going to post information from the New York City Department of Health about this. But, this is not the focus of the show and this is pretty uncommon outside certain Orthodox communities. So, it's not really even the point of the show, but it's related and we're leaving it in. Bryan Schwartzman: Okay, let's get to the main event. Let's get to our guests. Max Buckler heads strategic initiatives of Bruchim, which advocates for inclusion in Jewish communities for those who forego circumcision. It's a new nonprofit that's that's been covered in the Jewish Telegraphic Agency. We can post that article in the show notes. Max in his professional life is a strategic consultant for startups, with a focus on marketing and digital communications. He's a bit of a Jack of all trades. He's an experienced songwriter, Brazilian jujitsu competitor. We did not talk about that, maybe next podcast, and a game designer. He currently lives in Hong Kong with his wife Charlene, who is a member of the extended Bruchim team. And Max and Charlene did a great interview on circumcision with the folks at Judaism Unbound. If you want to check that interview out, we'll post that link as well. Bryan Schwartzman: And, we've got Gary Shteyngart. He's The New York Times bestselling author of the memoir Little Failure, which covers a lot of his time growing up in Queens. There was the pandemic novel that recently published, Our Country Friends. And I'll just name them all. He's published the novels Lake Success, Super Sad True Love Story, Absurdistan and his debut, The Russian Debutante's Handbook. He's also, and folks may know him this way, is a literary consultant to the HBO hit Succession. Bryan Schwartzman: For two decades his journalism has appeared in The New Yorker, The New York Times, Travel and Leisure. I recall he did some post-9/11 writing that lifted my spirit in difficult times. And, little-known fact or, or I guess a-lot- known fact, he's one of literature's most prolific and generous blurbers. And if you listen all the way to the end, you can hear me request a blurb for my hypothetical non-existent novel. So, that's a reason to listen to the end. There is so much more I can say, but better let the guests speak for themselves. So, Max Buckler, Gary Shteyngart, welcome to the Evolve groundbreaking Jewish conversations podcast. Max Buckler: Thanks a lot. Happy to be on. Gary Shteyngart: Thanks. Great to be here. Bryan Schwartzman: Gary is coming to us from New York City and Max from the beautiful city of Hong Kong. So this is a global conversation. And we're here to talk about circumcision, Brit Milah, which I mean, I'll just say from the outset, I don't know that either of you have yet convinced me that we should get rid of it. But, you've really got me, and I think a lot of other people, think about it, maybe for the first time. So I just want to ask, I mean, each of you, we'll get into it, is coming from a very different perspective, from a different story. But, you've each written and talked publicly about circumcision, arguing that we should at least rethink it and make space for people who, and families who, choose not to do it. Bryan Schwartzman: So Max, maybe I'll start with you, because it's late in the evening for you. I mean, can you just give us a sense? I mean, I know you're not a parent yet, but you're married. You're very invested in Jewish life. Why this is something you've not only been thinking about, but really become an activist on? What got you started on thinking of circumcision beyond just a Seinfeld punchline? Max Buckler: Hmm. Right. So I come from the Conservative movement, that's where I got my first Jewish education, that's where I was raised. So, obviously, an area with a pretty heavy amount of Jewish education, but also a progressive area. And the reason this issue's become a sticking point for me is that it's something that's rarely discussed, but interacts with some really core, progressive issues. Max Buckler: And the reason I titled my piece Be Honest About the Bris, and wrote about the importance of having high-integrity conversations, is because a lot of conversations in the Jewish community, especially the progressive community, tend to be a little bit low-integrity. People try and casually dismiss this issue a little bit too often. And that's despite the fact that the ethical concerns at play are extremely serious and, as I mentioned, touch really core liberal values like gender and autonomy and continuation of tradition, and figuring out what things we keep, what things we modify. And something I'll mention, even when we wrap up, but just now is that, this is something that should always be scrutinized, whether or not they do this for another 1,000 years. At every point, the kinds of concepts that this touches should just really always be up for analysis and always be checked out. So it's healthy and smart to always keep an eye on it anyway, no matter where you land on it. Bryan Schwartzman: And Gary, I believe you first wrote about the botched circumcision in your memoir Little Failure, where it was presented in one of a series of unhappy encounters with Judaism, with American Judaism. And then you really got a lot of people thinking and talking about it with your New Yorker essay from the past year, where you describe a real physical, emotional nightmare. I guess, I guess before I even ask what made you want to write about this ... I mean, I know you're a writer, so that's what you do. But, I just want to ask from a human perspective, how are you doing? It seemed like you had some pretty awful moments, not that long ago. Gary Shteyngart: Yeah. Thank you so much for asking. So, right now I'm not in constant pain, as I was- Bryan Schwartzman: That's good. Gary Shteyngart: ... as a result of the botched circumcision. I would say now it's instead of just pain, it's more of a sensory issue. So I would say about four days out of the week, there's a signal still being sent from the part of the penis that is sort of saying, "Look out, something's happening," but it's no longer pain. And, in fact, now I'm on a whole battery of drugs, tricyclic antidepressants, some applied as a cream to a part of the penis, that try to disconnect this signal from the spinal column, which then gets translated to the brain. So, I think this will be a lifetime issue. I don't think it will ever go away. Gary Shteyngart: But, for about a year, I was almost entirely immobilized. Any movement I took would result in horrific pain, so I was pretty much bedridden. I had to wear this, my wife called it an Elizabethan collar that dogs wear. I had to wear that around the glans of the penis at all times. And it was tied together by all these bandages and stuff. And I was taking all these much more robust nerve-pain drugs that caused me to hallucinate. So I was trying to finish a novel at the time, in which a character actually hallucinates. And I would spend my whole morning hallucinating from these drugs. And then I would write that stuff. So, for me, this was easily the first experience I've ever had with being so depressed that I was suicidal. I just couldn't understand how I would continue living with this, how I could continue to be a father or certainly a husband, because, obviously, sexual activity was out of the question. Gary Shteyngart: And this was all the result of a circumcision that had happened when I was seven, had come from Leningrad. And my parents fell in with some Hasids or Orthodox, ultra-Orthodox Jews who said, you have to have this done. It was done. It was botched. And then 40 years later, it all kinda fell apart again, after a piece of hair got stuck in the resulting, uh, you know, uh I compared it in another book, it looked like the bombing of Dresden, the whole skin was so eviscerated. And, I'll tell you, I mean, I don't want to hog too much time here, but I would say that in researching that New Yorker piece, I kept running into other men who had had circumcisions. Many not Jewish, because other cultures do this too. And, in America we do this pretty much as a medical procedure, or at least have, who have also had unbelievable, you know, disasters with their circumcisions. Gary Shteyngart: One person I didn't meet, but one person actually killed himself. And several have had to have gender reassignment surgery. But, all of them were incredibly happy to talk to me, but they kept saying one thing, "Just please don't put my name down, because it's such a shameful thing." And there was one gentleman who said, "Please don't put my country down, the country I'm from." He's from a country of 150 million people and he was afraid that somebody would find out. Gary Shteyngart: So, what I realized is that this happens quite a bit. This isn't an isolated case. It's just that some men suffer their entire lives. Others, you know, will only talk about it with their partners, if that. And some just end up either drinking themselves to death or doing some form of self-harm that takes them out of the picture. So, I thought, that's why I wanted to write something so personal for The New Yorker. I didn't even come out saying, "Hey, let's not do this anymore." I'm just saying you need to see what's possible, because nobody is going to talk about this. Max Buckler: And I actually wanted to add on there- Bryan Schwartzman: Go ahead. Max Buckler: ... that when I first started just exploring this conversation, before my initial research phase and consulting experts, just having conversations with friends, I was stunned when just, in the first level of this, several friends came and told me that their child or a sibling or family member had a botched circumcision. Gary Shteyngart: Yeah. Max Buckler: And I ... Yeah. Go ahead. Gary Shteyngart: I was just saying, I was at a dinner a couple of months ago, post-COVID and everyone at the table, there were maybe 10 people ... This was a very posh dinner, so we're not ... And, mostly not even Jewish people. And everyone had a botched circumcision story to tell at that dinner. I mean, the rates are estimated from what? From one to 10% that we know of. And, obviously, so the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. But, that's still a lot, given the sensitivity of this organ. That's a lot of stuff to mess up. Max Buckler: And it's hard to measure, because the reality is that every circumcision's actually different. They come from practitioners with different methods. And so, the standard for what's going to count as a botch is actually variable. But, yeah. These stories are out there. I'm always surprised when I talk to rabbis or other people who say, "Oh, I've never heard of anyone having problem." When I found out in the first weeks of just talking about this, I just started talking about it with my friends and problems came straight to me. And, my thought on that is, when you present as someone who's safe to listen, then those stories are out there. But, if people perceive that they're going to be shamed, or that "is this going to be a difficult conversation?", then those stories really tend not to come out. Gary Shteyngart: Right. And I would add to that also, that there's an element of masculinity that's involved here. Because, almost all the men I talked to, that was the reason they didn't want to talk about it. If they had had an amputated thumb, okay? They would be like, "Oh, I lost my thumb in a war. Great!" But this is like something that they were so ashamed about. And it was very interesting, because one of the people I talked about, and I quoted him in that New Yorker piece ... He actually lives not far from me, upstate. Gary Shteyngart: He was saying something that really registered with me, that when he was growing up, because his penis was so deformed, he thought of himself as belonging to a kind of third gender, because he didn't feel himself fully male either, but he had to represent as a male all the time. That's exactly how I felt. And I remember watching that film, Silence of The Lambs. Do you remember that when the killer, puts his penis between his legs and dances around like that? I would sort of do that as a kid, because I didn't want to look at that thing. And I was always imagining what it would be like not to have this organ that showed, not just my history, but the shame of what I had gone through. Bryan Schwartzman: I didn't think Buffalo Bill was ... I think that was his name, was coming into this- Gary Shteyngart: Buffalo Bill. Yeah. Bryan Schwartzman: So before we go further, I think I wanted both of your takes on this. Do you see infant circumcision, infant Brit Milah, as something different in kind from doing this to a seven-year-old? I mean, Gary was sort of victimized twice, first by the Soviet government, which this couldn't happen as an infant, and then by the Orthodox, who really pressured his family into doing this. And, I guess, by the doctor or whoever performed it, by screwing it up. So, I wonder, are you two talking about the same thing? Or are you talking about apples and oranges? Have you two discussed this? So, I'm curious what your thoughts are on that? Max Buckler: I think Gary better start with that one, because most circumcisions are infant, as we know. But, in our community, so- Gary Shteyngart: In our community. Yeah. I mean, one thing that I've learned, actually, is that the condition that I, that was done by ... So, a lot of circumcisions that are poorly performed, there's two possibilities: too much of the foreskin is taken away or not enough of the foreskin is taken away. In my case, not enough was taken away, but also the healing was done very improperly. In fact, there was an infection right after the circumcision was performed, and that caused the condition called a skin bridge where there is an extraneous clump of skin here. It was connecting the glans and, I guess, the end of the frenulum, so about mid-shaft. And what happened there was ... The reason I'm bringing this up while we're talking about infant is that that condition I found out, does happen quite a bit with circumcisions performed on infants. Gary Shteyngart: So, it's not just people who are seven-year-olds who go through what I went through. These kids, some of them grow up with that condition all along. So, yes. I would say in general, as doctors have told me, the sooner you perform any kind of operation like this, probably the better. There are added complications in doing it for a 40-year-old, which people do, obviously. But I think that it also happens when you're younger. So, obviously, better to do it when you're younger from a medical standpoint, but still, the same kinds of problems crop up, even when you perform it on an infant. Max Buckler: Yeah. There's reasonable disagreement actually about when it is safer. I mean, for example, the US has exported circumcision to certain regions in Africa for various reasons. And there, as of 2020, they're not allowed to perform them on infants anymore, since they discovered the opposite was true. They had more complications in child than adult. But, as I said, there's disagreement about this. But I think the important thing for people listening right now, is that botches, if we're taking that angle, are possible at all times. So, from that perspective, I wouldn't say there's a huge difference. Bryan Schwartzman: So, maybe a question with two sides of the same coin. On the one level, we have this ... I mean, if we're talking about Brit Milah, we have this ceremony that's performed for centuries and millennia and links, does the whole linking of generations thing. And most liberal, non-Orthodox Jews do it, because their parents and grandparents have done it, not because God told them to do it. So, I guess, on the one hand it's the, why mess with that? On the other, I'm really curious why you think this is one thing that, for the most part, although it's starting to change, non-Orthodox Jews, haven't really challenged, when they've challenged, basically, every everything else. So, I know that's two questions, but they seemed very related to me. So, wondering where you two would take that? Max Buckler: That's a huge question. There's actually so much to unpack in this issue. And, you're right that it's something that has had some uniformity between different movements, completely unaffiliated Jews, religious Jews. And, we could theorize about all kind of ways that that's possible. But, one thing I did want to comment on is that, what we can't ignore is that this has also gone in tandem in the United States with a medicalized propensity for circumcision. So, from the the perspective that certain religious authorities take, which is, "Oh, look at how well this is held up in modernity, in the Jewish community," that's also extremely closely linked to the American phenomenon. So I just wanted to mention that first. Gary Shteyngart: Yeah. No. I mean, off of that, it's fascinating. I've been doing some research on this ... I think I want to expand this project a little bit and it's like, in some weird way, Jews who obviously wanted to assimilate into America, ... The Jewish custom of circumcision really dovetailed with all this 19th-century stuff that was happening in England. And then, in America where circumcision became ... I don't know, like a strange Anglo-puritan hygienic/slash morality issue. I mean, at one point doctors were circumcising all of the people in the ... I guess it was then called the asylum for lunatics off Roosevelt Island. Gary Shteyngart: They thought that would cure them, quote-unquote, of their lunacy, so they just circumcised that whole asylum. And obviously all you had was some very angry, mentally ill people at the end of that. And they tried it for everything. It was supposed to be the cure for everything, the cure for masturbation. They asked Philip Roth about how well that worked out, right? It was- Max Buckler: Epilepsy. Gary Shteyngart: Epilepsy- Max Buckler: You got epilepsy in there, HPV for the sexual partner. Gary Shteyngart: [CW: Anti-Black racism referenced in historical context] I mean, every 10 years, there's something new that circumcision is supposed to cure. So, it really dovetailed that. In fact, I was reading some speech to the American Medical Association in the '50s, and they were talking about, because obviously racism has to creep into this if it's America ... They were talking about the difference between, I think, it was "studious Jews" who were circumcised and "promiscuous Negros" who were not circumcised. So, it became a strange, moral, hygienic issue and it worked in favor of Jews. We were like, "Hey, we've been doing this for 5,000 years." Gary Shteyngart: So in terms of assimilation, it made perfect sense. But now, when you begin to unpack it and look into reasons why it became so prevalent here, and start to look at all the medical issues, there's no sense if you compare, for example ... I guess Europe is comparable in terms of average income and development of the medical system. There there's mostly no circumcisions take place. Very few circumcisions, except for religious reasons. And male penile health is just as good and robust over there. In fact, by some measurements it's even better. So, my first thing that I always say is, obviously I'm interested in addressing the Jewish community. But, the first thing I always say is, if you don't come from a tradition that has circumcision, this really is a no-brainer. Don't do it. Then, there's other considerations, such as the ones we're talking about on this podcast. But, if you're not a religious person, then there's really no reason to consider this for your boy. Bryan Schwartzman: Gary, you mentioned Philip Roth, so, I mean, there's so much to just go with there. But, I think Max has talked about this too. I mean, this has been such a trope in Jewish humor, from the Borscht Belt to Philip Roth. From Portnoy to Sabbath's Theater, to you know, Woody Allen, Seinfeld. I don't know. The circumcision joke is just a trope and it always gets laughs. And, I mean, Gary, whether you agree with this or not, others have described you at times as a humorist and satirist. What do you make of this? I almost feel like you're laughing at the joke, but you're saying, "Hey, this isn't only a joke," or, "We're joking, because we're not ... There's something scary or serious we're not facing." Gary Shteyngart: Look, I mean, all Jewish humor to me is humor from the edge of the grave. We're laughing, because it's the only way we can process something that's so horrific and insane, as much of our history has been. After I had my piece in The New Yorker, all these mohels, of course, got very angry on the Right. And there's one mohel, I looked up his Instagram and he has this baby screaming and he is wearing a t-shirt that says, "It's my Bris and I'll cry if I want to." That's the way we've approached it. Bryan Schwartzman: I laughed at that. I mean, I have to admit. Gary Shteyngart: Yeah. See? Well, that's the natural tendencies to just say, "Ah, well!". But, we know. Scientific studies, medical studies, have now shown that obviously it's a huge bit of trauma on the part of the child. Many children actually have trouble latching on to their mother's breasts, after this is performed. I don't know what the physiological or psychological aspect of that is, but I think it's feeling that even a child that's eight days old no longer feels safe, even among caregivers. I've just been talking about this with my own shrink, as Jews do. And, I've been feeling that was really the first betrayal. I was already seven, so I was much more cognizant. But, after that, I never really trusted my parents. Like, I was bullied in school, I never went to them for advice. It was like, "What are they going to do? Circumcise me again?" There was no level of trust left. And I think that's very important. Gary Shteyngart: And, I think studies have showed that kind of ... People say, well, the nervous system or the brain of the eight-day-old child is not fully developed. It's way more developed than we think. But, the humor, of course, we're trying to make fun of this. Look. I mean, I've written in books like Absurdistan, I've written that somebody starts a Holocaust museum. There's a whole thing that goes on there, which is ...So, I poke fun at the way that's been monetized or used in a certain way. I think all of our tragedies, we look at it often with a satirical or comic eye, because it's the only way we can deal with the enormity and absurdity of what we've dealt with. Gary Shteyngart: But, I also realized that I've been writing about the circumcision from the very first novel I've written. Even when I didn't think about it, even before the latest collapse of my penis happened, it's always been this far away from my consciousness. It's always been circulating, because it is this feeling of the first betrayal, the first time when I realized that I was the only person I could count upon in the end. And I couldn't count on my parents. And I certainly couldn't count on the organized Jewish community. And that's another thing I think that, if I hadn't had these experiences, if like many American Jews, really discovered Judaism, let's say, in college as a liberal arts grad or something, I probably would've had a far closer connection to Judaism than I have now. Gary Shteyngart: It's fascinating to me that people, that people think of circumcision for males as like The Experience for Jews. But, at the same time, they won't heed the commandments that actually are beautiful and make so much sense in the over-electronic world that we live in, like keeping the Sabbath. I mean, that's a beautiful commandment that if people actually did that, our lives would be changing. We would enter the kind of meditative state that most non-Jews living in America today will die for. But, we don't do that. Instead, we cut a baby's penis. It's so shocking that humor is sometimes the only way to approach it. Bryan Schwartzman: Hi, if you're enjoying this interview, and I bet you are ... Well, maybe not enjoy. But, if you're getting a lot out of this interview, please hit the subscribe button and be among the first to know when a new episode appears. And if you're a new listener, welcome, bruchim habaim. Check out our back catalog of other groundbreaking conversations. And, please take a moment to give us a five-star rating or leave a review. Those things really help other people find out about the show. It has something to do with algorithms and things I don't understand, but it works. Bryan Schwartzman: All right. Now, back to our interview with Max Buckler and the novelist Gary Shteyngart. Max, in your essay, you really focus a lot on the consent issue and the idea that this eight-day-old boy, or even this seven-year-old boy is not giving consent. And, I guess, I just want to ask, I mean, as a parent, I do hundreds of things without my child's consent. I give them vaccine, I take them to the doctor, I give them medicine. How is this different in kind from any of these other decisions we make on behalf of our child? Max Buckler: That's an important question and I know that it's one that a lot of people have on their minds, so I appreciate you asking. And it's true that parenting is a very complicated, ethical situation, where children are not autonomous. When you're a baby, you can't consent to anything. It's all dependent on what the parents do and what their decisions are. That being said, it's also a strange point to bring up, because this is not a normal situation. I mean, I wonder if we can apply that same mode of thinking to any other part of the body. If it's one parent's right to amputate the foreskin, then is it another parent's right to amputate another body part? It's, what's going on there? Parenting is not an unlimited freedom. The reality is, even though parenting is a very powerful situation and the potential for abuse for power is immense there, it's still not the case in the liberal society that you could do anything, just because they're a child. Max Buckler: And, another point I just wanted to make that, to me makes it very real here is that, in most situations, when you put a child in a risky position like, let's say, just playing a sport. It's true that they can get hurt, but what do you think in that situation? You send them out, but you want them to come back in one piece. And in this situation you're sending them out, or the goal is not to come back in one piece. It's only successful if you don't. So, I really resist the urge to classify this along other parenting decisions. It's not a normal parenting decision at all. Gary Shteyngart: Yeah. And I agree with you Max. And, I mean, I would only add that for about a century, American doctors have told parents that if you want to be a responsible parent, this is what you do. And they would always hold up some study that in the end never quite worked out. And they would say, "This is what responsible parenting is, cutting the circumcision, is cutting foreskin off. And I think, as the American ... What is it? The Pediatrician's Association? Or- Max Buckler: American Academy of Pediatrics. Gary Shteyngart: Yeah. American Academy of Pediatrics have been very slowly backpedaling that. It's Canadian equivalent has already said we're not going to say nothing anymore. So I think that the first part of this ... And I know we are obviously talking from a religious standpoint, but I think the very first part of this is the medical establishment letting go of this issue. Because, I think Jewish moms, and I know obviously dads are as involved, but I know it's the moms who are often the most affected by circumcision, because when they hear that cry, every single thing that they've been hardwired for, every single DEFCON 5 warning is going off. And I think once their pediatricians are no longer telling them to do this, I think that it will start to recede in all communities, but in the Jewish community too, where obviously there's another basis for it. Gary Shteyngart: So, I think we're at a turning point. It really does feel like a turning point at this time, which is why when I published that article in The New Yorker, it was so wonderful. All these people started writing in. Rabbis started writing in and, saying, "Well, I'm not going to say don't do it, but I'm no longer going to push for it." Stuff like that. It's been really incredible and, again, I'm not here to say don't do it, because that stuff never works. Anyway, I'm here just to say, "This is a possible outcome. Medically, we are learning more and more about how little it does and how much harm it may cause, in ways that we don't know yet." So, I've been talking to John Hopkins University. They had me in a panel with their doctors in Africa, who are performing or have performed a lot of these circumcisions, often on adults or young adults. Gary Shteyngart: And I'm not saying that they're entirely against the idea of stopping it too, because they believe in certain things about HIV. It's out there to be argued over. But even for them, I think hearing that perspective was very helpful. And they're saying, "Oh! Maybe we should do more aftercare. Maybe we should talk before that. There's so many more things that can be done," because, again, and I think we started off talking about this, this is the issue that no one dares speak its name, because people are so embarrassed, or we immediately turn to the, "Oh, he got his schlong cut." Gary Shteyngart: So, as much as I do see myself as a humorous person, this is something I want to keep working on in every aspect I can, because I see this from my own perspective. I see this from reading the diaries of a boy, of a young man in his twenties who killed himself, because the feeling that he had, which is one I completely identified with, after my second botched operation, which he described as ... He described having an operation where the eyelet was amputated from the eyeball and there's constant sensory touch with the eyeball. That's what it felt like during my second botched procedure, and possibly my first botch procedure when I was seven. This feeling that you can never be right again, and that you will never know a moment where you're not getting that signal that something is wrong with one of the most sensitive parts of your body. Gary Shteyngart: So, that happens to a lot of people. He was not able to continue living. Some of us do. And his mother has just written a biography about him and also talking about everything that happened to him and how it basically destroyed their family. So, it's something to consider, definitely. Bryan Schwartzman: Wow! There's, there's so many ways I could go. I was definitely surprised. I think it was in The New Yorker essay to read that Maimonides had taken time to think about whether or not men were enjoying sex less, because of circumcision. And obviously he didn't do surveys. He didn't have modern medicine at his disposal. But, what does it tell us that a great Sage was thinking about this? And, for him it was a positive, but- Gary Shteyngart: Go ahead. Max Buckler: I was just going to say, Maimonides was not the only one who came to this conclusion either, that it reduces sexual pleasure. I actually don't have a position on this, especially as someone who's circumcised as an infant. But, I think it's probably true, but it's so difficult to quantify the sexual experience. But, there are certainly several prominent Jewish voices over the ages who discussed this. And, it's right there on chabad.org. If you look at their characterization of circumcision, they make the claim, still to this day ... I even had friends and rabbi friends in the progressive community, in my first conversations who said, basically, Judaism requires some restriction of the tastes. So, that thought is out there. And it makes a lot of sense. I don't think, though, that that's the reason why the whole community has done this over time. I think that that is an attempt at rationalizing and justifying what resists being rationalized and justified. And so, I don't usually take it too much to heart when people bring that up. But it has been out there. Gary Shteyngart: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, because I feel like a lot of those intactivists, or whatever you want to call people who are very stridently against circumcision, bring up lack of, or lessening of sensation, et cetera, worse sex as a leading issue. I guess it could be for them. It's so far down on my list of problems with circumcision, having encountered years of unbelievable pain from it that ... I mean, possibly yes, but it's definitely not pride and center for me. It is interesting, just from analyzing Judaism from a psychosexual point, because these rabbis would get into these heated discussions about it during the middle ages and later about how a man who's not circumcised will please this woman so much that she will not let go of his genitals. I think that's an actual quote. And so, thereby he will not have time to study the Torah, because he'll just be getting laid all day long and all night long. And then he'll- Max Buckler: A fate worse than death. Gary Shteyngart: Yeah. It's a fate worse than death. Max Buckler: Truly a fate worse than death. Gary Shteyngart: Have sex night and day, and there's going to be no mission in his life. And then what? What do you got then? So I don't know. I mean, to me this isn't the pro or con. It's just reading that stuff is ... And I agree with Max, that it is maybe a way of sidestepping the issue and making it quasi-comical, although I don't know how comical they were. But, it just goes to show you the lengths, so to speak, to which Jewish thinkers will go to either justify or ignore this. Look in the mid-19th century, a lot of reformed Jews in Germany, which was the apex of Jewish thought at that point, were saying, "Let's not do this anymore." Max Buckler: Not just a lot, but the leading rabbis, the reform movement. That conversation was out there. Gary Shteyngart: That conversation was out there in the mid-19th century. But, I said that some rabbis reached out to me after my essay, but for the most part among reformed Jews, crickets. Among the organized community, nobody wants to talk about this. And, in the 21st century. We're talking about 160, 170 years after the great rabbis of Frankfurt, et cetera, had considered maybe we shouldn't, maybe we should do away with this. So, there's something bigger going on here. The fact that people who have absolutely no connection to Judaism. "Shabbat? What the hell is that?" The fact that even they will continue to do this, there's something about masculinity in here. And, before I close here, just, many Gentiles in the 19th, 18th century thought that Jews were unmanned by their circumcisions. That was their spiel was, "Well, once they remove that they don't become full men." Gary Shteyngart: And remember that this originated in Egypt, before the Jews started doing, before the Israelite began doing this. This was a procedure done, and it was performed on 12, 13-year-old boys, noble boys. The procedure was done as a test of strength, as a test of masculinity. If you could stomach without fainting having a piece of your penis cut off, then you were welcome into the elites of the ancient society. So I always think that there's a masculine aspect to this that we don't talk about, we laugh about it now. But this is, and continues to be, a test of strength. It's just a question of, do we want this test of strength in the 21st century? Bryan Schwartzman: It's interesting. Both times my wife and I have a child, we chose not to know the gender in advance. And we had two beautiful girls. And I must admit, I felt a certain sense of relief at just not having to deal with this, with the circumcision, or think about having to do anything that quickly, let alone something that's potentially traumatic, traumatic to the parents. Max, you described the Brit Milah as like an ancient gender-reveal party. And are wondering, does it fit with our modern-day, evolving conceptions of gender? And, I'd asked that ... I guess I'll just stop there. Max Buckler: Yeah, well, here's a thought. Even if I believe that this was absolutely medically necessary, and way better for the penis, and way better to do it and optimal on the eighth day, I would still not do a Brit Milah, because of the gender issue. You know, let's just forget about circumcision for one second here, and just think about the ramifications of just a ritual considered by some to be the most important thing in the world, that deals with penises. Just deals with baby penises. What if it was just they were taking a yad for reading the Torah and just touching the penis, not cutting anything off. Max Buckler: For thousands of years, we've had a ritual, where children born with penises have had pride of place. And as much as like we can talk about how much harm it can also do, it also has a really profound impact on gender in the Jewish worlds. And so, that actually can't be left out, and really for me is an issue that I argue should be raised more. It's easy to talk about the physical side, which is extremely important, but it's just the gender piece is also extremely important. Bryan Schwartzman: Okay. While we have just another couple seconds of your time. If you're inspired or enlightened by these conversations on the podcast, on the Evolve website, in the web conversations, you can support us. There's a donate link, right in our show notes. Every gift matters. Make a statement about your values and what's important to you. Make a statement in favor of nuanced, honest, groundbreaking conversations. Thanks for listening and thank you for your support. All right. Back to the show. Bryan Schwartzman: Some of the objection to circumcision around the world, I think mirrors some of the objection to kosher slaughtering. There is an element of antisemitism behind it. So, do you get concerned, by advocating against this practice, you'd be seen indirectly as echoing the voices of those who don't have good intentions? Max Buckler: I don't worry about it too much, just because of my place in the Jewish community and the way I approach this. I understand, because of the way I'm raised, how to have these conversations without nearing antisemitism. It's certainly out there, I've described this before. I do think it's very difficult to talk about this issue if you're not Jewish, without people labeling you as antisemitic, which is a problem. I think that Jews should also be receptive to legitimate criticism on this situation. I think that the connection is often made between attempts at regulating kosher slaughter and circumcision in Europe. Both of those are on the table. It's very likely, I think, that we'll see successful legislation in one of those arenas, no matter what in the future. Max Buckler: And they're different issues, though. One of them is a potential human rights problem, and the other one is not. One thing I do know is that we aren't above regulation. The community has to be a partner in society. I do think that there could be elements of those laws, which are hypocritical and could become antisemitic. But, I think that as the medical inclination towards this act declines, there's only going to be more heat in the legislative arena. Gary Shteyngart: Yeah. I mean, look, in Brooklyn, there were Hasidic rabbis or mohels who would perform ... Can't remember what it's called, brit ha peh?, or something. Max Buckler: Metzitzah b'peh. Gary Shteyngart: Metzitzah b'peh. Thank you. My Yeshiva days are far behind me, where the mohel places his mouth on the penis to, I guess, remove some of the blood. And cases of herpes were transmitted from mohel to baby, one of which I believe was fatal. Because, at that age, herpes means something different for a child. Max Buckler: Affects the brain. That's right. Gary Shteyngart: Affects the brain. And so I don't remember which ... I guess it was a city health department, or some entity stepped in, as well it should have, and said, "Let's not do this. Don't do this anymore." So obviously there are regulations. Now- Max Buckler: Well, actually, no. I have to correct that. It is still legal to perform oral suction at the circumcisions. It's discouraged, but it's still legal. And it's still performed. Gary Shteyngart: It's still legal? I thought I'd read that it was ... which would make sense. Max Buckler: There are parental consent forms and some stuff, but, I mean, it's something that happens in private. It's not pursued. It's discouraged, but it's legal. Gary Shteyngart: Well, I mean, that's definitely a place where I would say, obviously, I know that's a part of a ritual, but obviously the same way that we monitor against other religions doing things that can be incredibly hurtful to a child, for example, not administering medical aid, which some religions believe in ... Those parents can be prosecuted in a way, obviously dependent on the jurisdiction. Yes. As a society, we do have rights to step in and regulate things. But, would a ban on circumcision work? I don't think I would advocate for that, because I think it would go underground immediately and it would just be performed ... I mean, it already is performed by, I think, people who may not be fully qualified to do it. But I think it would open up a whole can of worms. Gary Shteyngart: I think the most important thing that we can do, and especially to our communities that aren't ultra-Orthodox is to present all the facts, and then hope that things change organically, without having to enact laws. But yes, in some circumstances, obviously ... I mean, you think of those poor kids. And you think of the weird psychosexual bomb that is enacted when an adult places his mouth in a child's penis and you start to think ... Obviously, there's many different strains of Judaism, but this is a lot to take in. Max Buckler: I'm just curious, Gary, if ... I actually agree with you. I think you need a cultural buy-in before you have any kind of effective law. Laws must reside within cultural buy-in. But, for negatively impacted people, let's say, for some of the people you've talked about, or you, coming from your own perspective, I'd just be curious, do you think there should be any kind of recourse available? Or, not a ban per se, but ... Have you thought about that at all? Gary Shteyngart: There have been successful lawsuits. Yeah. I mean, there have been successful lawsuits by children who had to have their gender-reassigned. There was a famous case, I think it was a Canadian, I guess, woman, because she was reassigned and she lived her whole life as a woman, but it was never ... She killed herself in the end as well. There was a case of someone like myself, also came as a kid from Russia ... This was, I believe, in the '90s. Same situation, I think possibly done even in the same horrible, public hospital that I had had mine done. And there was a terribly botched circumcision. And I think they did sue the ... I don't know which entities they sued, but they got a reward, I think, in the millions. Please check on that. Gary Shteyngart: But, there was a very successful lawsuit and there were other successful lawsuits. So there is recourse to this. But, for example, to someone like me whose entire life has been turned upside down by this? Who would I sue at this point? For me, it's interesting, because the major problem happened when I was seven. There was pain for about two years and then it recurred when I was, what? 48 or something like that. 47, 48. Yeah, 48. So, it's almost like a two-stage process, but stemming from the original process. Right? Gary Shteyngart: My wife's a lawyer and I brought it up to her, and I was like, almost as a joke. And she was like, "Eh." Even though she's a lawyer, she's not very litigious, but ... I don't know. I mean, the other aspect, just to continue with this conversation, I went through about 12 different doctors. I think I saw every urologist in Manhattan. I mean, sometimes I'd walk down the street and feel like half the city had seen my schlong, just walking around. It was incredibly disturbing also to constantly pull down my pants. And in the article, I talk about one nurse who saw the swollen, horrible condition that my penis was in and passed out. Fainted. I had a nurse faint, which is ... That's the- Bryan Schwartzman: Not reassuring, Gary Shteyngart: Not reassuring. No. But, the thing is that, many of these doctors were, of course, these urologists, were Jewish and had Maimonides quotes framed in the back and all that stuff. And their attitude was like, "Eh. You'll get over it. It's going to be fine." One doctor was saying, "It doesn't look so bad. It's still a good procedure," and finally the one doctor that did sort of help me move from complete invalid status to, basically, still have some sensation that's negative, but can live with it, also a Jewish doctor ... But he was in Lake Success, Long Island, and he specialized in pain. He's the director of a pain clinic. And I had to do ... Five different people were connecting me, and non-urologists at all, connecting me to other and other and other people. And it didn't seem like all these Jewish doctors I was seeing really, well gave a damn in some ways. It's almost like, "It'll be okay." Max Buckler: People have to pretend that botches don't exist and pretend that it's fine, because no one wants to confront the issues here. So, that's really not surprising. Gary Shteyngart: Nobody wants to confront the issues. It took somebody who specialized in pain, to whom I could talk to and feel like I was actually being heard. That this wasn't like, "Oh, well." One of doctors said to me, he said, Yeah. These things happen. It's one in 100," like this was some negligible number when it comes to the most sensitive part of a man's body. One in a 100 was an okay outcome. It's mishuggeh. Max Buckler: Yeah. It's completely mishuggeh. One of my contacts, someone who specializes in documenting botches in a publication wrote that for the person affected the statistic means nothing. The chances are 100% when it's you. Gary Shteyngart: Yeah. Yeah. Max Buckler: And, I do think people need to think about that. What level of risk would ever be acceptable when it's your child? Gary Shteyngart: I don't know what to tell you. I mean, you read the Talmud, and it's like you're allowed not to be circumcised if, I think, it's one or two of the kids' brothers have died. Max Buckler: The debate is between three or four. Gary Shteyngart: Yeah, four. Okay. Max Buckler: They were extra careful. Gary Shteyngart: If you've had two children who have bled out from circumcision, you're just like, "I don't know. Maybe I should do a third?" We have an obsession with this procedure that goes beyond anything in our law. It's mind-boggling. Max Buckler: And that's actually a very important, ancient text, because, while it's true that the major interpretation of it is that they were worried about hemophilia acts, it's also an example of them scrutinizing this, of saying, "Well, when would it be too dangerous? Or when do we understand the medical situation well enough to not take the risk?" And I think that should give a hint to us that at every, I don't know, 1,000-year stopping point, maybe we make a special counsel and assess. I just want to keep hammering that home. There's nothing wrong with taking a hard look. I think if people resist taking the hard look, then this should really go. That's an important point of integrity. It deserves the full weight of the scrutiny of the community and the medical- Gary Shteyngart: And the medical community. If you want to draw together a rabbinical court that has all the different parts of Judaism, I will gladly appear and testify. And, I will drop my drawers for one more time and show everyone what's going on. And, I would do anything to help us get the debate moving again. Bryan Schwartzman: I don't know if such a court exists. It would be interesting. Max, I'm wondering what, in terms of aims? Because, I mean, my sense is you're far from trying to tear down Judaism. You're trying to enhance it. You're part of a group. Can you tell us what Bruchim is? And what its aims are? Max Buckler: Yeah. So Bruchim is a group that is not one that takes a stance on the ethics of circumcision. It's about community conversations. It's about the reality that there's a growing number of Jews involved in the community, who are foregoing or challenging circumcision and that they should be fully included, which should be the least controversial aspect of all this. It's not a group that says ... Similar to what Gary says, it's not a group that's saying, "Oh, absolutely, don't do it." It's a group that recognizes that there's parts of the community where people have been pushed away by this issue. And also to help the community. I mean, this is good for, for clergy and for other community leaders to know about initiatives out there, to be able to engage with it, between people who ... At this stage and point, you're going to have a few people not doing it and a group of people who are doing it and they're all in the same boat. So, that's what Bruchim is about. Bryan Schwartzman: Are there alternatives at this point? Like if folks say, "I really want my son to celebrate a covenant with the Jewish people in community and not do circumcision." Have alternatives been developed akin to a Simchat bat, a female-baby naming or gender non-binary, baby naming? Max Buckler: Absolutely. There are a few out there. Clearly members of Bruchim have proposed and written a lot about Brit shalom, which is one type of ceremony. Another one that I've been speaking about, especially within the reconstructionist context is Rabbi Wechterman's brit atifah ritual, covenant of wrapping. And one of the reasons I think that one's great, is because it's really gender neutral. It's not about circumcision. Or it's not about anything else other than having a gender-neutral ceremony, which appeals to me. No matter what child I have in the future, I want to welcome them equally. There's Brit Rehitzah, which is a washing ritual. There's a couple different ideas that have been out there. So, as I've spoken about this in a couple other places, it's an exciting frontier for people interested in ritual, because there's possibility, Bryan Schwartzman: Gary, I'm curious. Does it matter to you if the liberal Jewish community gets this right? Or, are you just done with Judaism and want to make sure that more people don't suffer pain like you do, which is obviously a noble goal? Gary Shteyngart: Yeah. I mean, look, I start from the perspective that having gone through this, I don't want anyone of any religious, non-religious, whatever ... I mean, pain is pain. People are people, which is why I start with, people who are not part religions that have this as a custom. And then I move into the progressive members of those religions who may want to reconsider. So, obviously, I know there are limits. I know some people, some communities will never stop doing this. But, I am culturally Jewish. I do hope that Judaism continues its incredible history, especially in America, my country. There's so much to offer. And, I used to work for UJA in different capacities as a grant writer, et cetera. And I know that the buzzword there was continuity, making sure that Judaism continued. Gary Shteyngart: And to me, this is a real no-brainer. Given how much we're re-conceiving with Judaism. What, anything as religion, gender, all these things are up for grabs, especially among more progressive American Jews. This seems to me like a no-brainer. This is an issue that you want to move forward on, that you want to have different voices present, instead of just rotely doing what's been done for so long, even as, as you reexamine all these different things about gender, et cetera, within Judaism. And I feel like it's an unstoppable train. I really do admire what people like Max are doing. Even though I'm not part of an organized Jewish community, as a fellow Jew, I can't help but be proud that people are addressing this issue with so much eloquence and thoughts and empathy. Because, I think ultimately changing our minds about this will require a lot of empathy. Gary Shteyngart: And, like I said before, I'm counting on the empathy of parents, before I'm counting on any form of empathy. I'm counting on parents to ... You have this little, defenseless preacher before you. And, obviously that that excites the instincts of people all over the world. But given how much Jews have written about their parents and about their children, the ... You mentioned Philip Roth before. The rich tapestry of constantly examining our relations and relationships. I think that's something to consider. First do no harm, as the doctors say, but I think that's also the parents first imperative as well. Bryan Schwartzman: Would either of you attend a Bris or not? I mean, I'm guess I'm curious would you- Gary Shteyngart: I think I would pass out. Bryan Schwartzman: I'm sorry? Gary Shteyngart: I think I would pass out. Yeah. Bryan Schwartzman: And you haven't been to one as an adult? Gary Shteyngart: No. I would pass out. I couldn't handle it. All the Ativan in the world couldn't get me through that one. Bryan Schwartzman: What about you, Max? Max Buckler: Remains a very difficult situation for me. I've certainly witnessed many of them. I don't do well at them. And I'm in an age category right now where they're coming fast and hard. But, I believe in empathy in this situation. I have certain friends who've never spoken to me or anyone about this, where it's really been a non-discussion point. And, I haven't really figured out how I feel about that question yet, even though I struggle with it. Bryan Schwartzman: I think it was in Tablet magazine. I'll find the essay and put it in the show notes, where a mother described her decision for not circumcising a second son after circumcising the first. And, basically, says something like, "You're not Jewish because of your penis. That's not what makes you Jewish." So, I mean, at least for males, or maybe for everybody, raise the question of what makes somebody Jewish? What defines Jewishness? And, if we further splinter on these basic things, does it make continuity or cohesion, like Gary mentioned, impossible? Max Buckler: One thing is that Jewish community leaders and anyone listening need to know, we're always splintering and coming back together. I wrote about this in my essay, but the history of the Jews is a group of people who pretend that they're stubborn when they're actually quite flexible. It looks like different things in different eras. And everyone, at every point has said this is the last generation. I don't think there's any one, single thing that changes that, that you take it away and then the whole ship sinks. But, it is true that there's a notion out there that this somehow is that thing, that it is that last straw. And it's actually a little crazy when you really think about it. You're saying, if we didn't cut a baby's penis, then that'd be it? Max Buckler: I mean, how strong can the group be if that's all that's there? It's got to be more than that. And I wanted to put out there that everything should double down on Shabbat. Gary mentioned this earlier, but certain rituals, which are also ancient, that have the potential to be open tent, that people can come in and out, that they could have portions of their life when it's really important that they could define the practice, that they can make ways of inviting others in, Jewish and non-Jewish ... To me, that's very high potential. Not these rigid ... a ritual like circumcision, which actually doesn't have our participation in it. The child is not a participant, they're a passive receiver of this situation. So, I want people to think about what's active and what we can take in our hands and be a part of, in terms of what ... And also what's ethical. Gary Shteyngart: It's funny that the people that were very incensed about my article, including when mohel who wrote, and a rabbi/ mohel, had wrote that, basically without circumcision, Judaism will ... That'll be the end of it. I mean, obviously that statement is so ridiculous, but it's more interesting for me to probe their own psychology and how they grew up. I guess, as a novelist, that's how I would approach it. "What makes you believe this? This is so important." Obviously, if you're a mohel, it's also part of your livelihood, et cetera. But, what makes you so cleaved so strongly to this out of all the different mitzvahs? Bryan Schwartzman: Max, Gary, this has been a fascinating conversation. I think we really pushed the envelope in a lot of different areas. We'll give listeners a lot to think about. I really appreciate it. You're both fascinating people. There's many, many non-circumcision questions I'd want to ask in a discussion, and hope for another time. But I really appreciate both of your time and insight and raising this important topic. Max Buckler: Bryan, I just really wanted to thank you, because this is a moment in Jewish history when it's a difficult topic to talk about. And I think the reconstructionist movement has offered a lot of great potential to speak about it. The evolve platform posting the series, and also this podcast. So, I just want to say thank you. Gary Shteyngart: Yeah. It's important work. Thank you. Bryan Schwartzman: Thank you. And, may both Gary may continue to heal and be well. And, should I ever publish anything before I die, I'm coming for a blurb. So- Gary Shteyngart: Of course. Anytime. Bryan Schwartzman: Awesome. All right. Thanks so much both of you. Gary Shteyngart: Take care. Max Buckler: Take care. Bryan Schwartzman: Thank you so much for listening to our interview with Max Buckler and Gary Shteyngart. We will be back next month with an all-new episode, part two of our series, Rethinking Circumcision. Well, what did you think of today's episode? Did it make you rethink your positions? Was it offensive? Was it hard to listen to? We want to hear from you. Evolve is about curating meaningful conversations, and you're part of that. Send me your questions, comments, feedback, whatever you have. You can reach me at bschwartzman@reconstructingjudaism.org. Evolve, groundbreaking Jewish conversations, is executive produced by Rabbi Jacob Staub and edited by Sam Wachs. Our theme song [Ilu Fino is by Rabbi Miriam Margoles. This show is a production of Reconstructing Judaism. I'm your host, Bryan Schwartzman. I will see you next time. (singing)