Bryan Schwartzman: From my home studio, welcome to Evolve: Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations. Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: Everyone is talking about original war, Israel identifying this as a war. No, this is a battle. The real war is the war for peace. Bryan Schwartzman: I'm your host, Bryan Schwartzman. Tonight begins the festival of Sukkot. However you're celebrating, I hope you have a joyful, meaningful time with friends and loved ones. We could all use it, [foreign language 00:00:49]. Today I'm speaking with Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed and Rabbi Michael Cohen, both of the Arava Institute for Environmental Studies. We'll be talking about their Evolve essay, Jumpstarting Hope in Gaza. As I mentioned, my guests today are from the Arava Institute and our guests will get into more depth on what it is, what it does, but a quick primer, it's based on the idea that the environment knows no political borders. For almost 30 years, Arava has brought together nearly 1,800 Palestinian, Jordanian, Israeli and other international students, combining on-the-ground projects, university-accredited academic study and a research program, and it produces scientists and leaders who can, according to its website, meet the Middle East's environmental challenges with innovative peace-building solutions. Now, a little about rebuilding Gaza, which is kind of outside our normal scope of episodes. Regardless about how one feels about how the war has been fought and what should be happening in the future regarding governance, Israeli military presence, it's pretty indisputable that there's been widespread destruction and loss of life and damaged infrastructure. And quoting the centrist and proudly Zionist publication Times of Israel, the war, quote, "Has wreaked widespread destruction on large swaths of the enclave and its infrastructure." So there's a critical need for access to clean water and hygiene, and the prevailing opinion is that even with a clearer governing arrangement in place, it'll take billions in dollars and years to rebuild Gaza. And Abu Hamed and Rabbi Cohen are part of an effort called Jumpstarting Hope in Gaza that's really about what to do in the meantime. And even mentioning hope in Gaza in the same sentence sounds pie in the sky, but Abu Hamed and Rabbi Cohen will get into the specifics about the project and their own sources of hope, and why they're hopeful despite the bleakness. All right, so with us in the booth to provide a little bit more context is my friend, colleague, and repeat podcast guest Rabbi Maurice Harris. Rabbi Maurice is Reconstructing Judaism's associate director for thriving communities and Israel's affairs specialist. Rabbi Maurice, welcome back to the show. Rabbi Maurice Harris: Thanks for having me on. Bryan Schwartzman: Well, it's great to have you in the booth. It's great to have you back with us. So I just want to ask, a couple of months ago you emailed me a very excitedly, I could hear your tone through the email about this project, Jumpstarting Hope in Gaza. It took us a couple of months, but eventually we were able to schedule an interview that people are about to hear. I'm just wondering what excited you about this project? Why did you think it was something that more people, especially folks who are our listeners, should know about? Rabbi Maurice Harris: There were a few things that excited me about it, starting with the amazing work that the Arava Institute has done over many, many years. This is a nonprofit organization with a stellar reputation that has successfully brought Israelis, Palestinians, Jordanians, and other people from around the region together to collaborate on a variety of projects of environmental concern, and it's a center that is known for combining brilliant minds with practical know-how. And so when I learned that they were committing themselves to create a project jointly with a highly reputable Palestinian non-government organization to get ready for the day when they could go into Gaza and assist with rebuilding and do the rebuilding in a way that was environmentally sustainable, forward-looking, and based on values of cooperation between Israelis and Palestinians, I just thought wow, that seems like some of the best work that anybody could be trying to do right at this moment. And I think it also shows a certain kind of chutzpah or stubbornness that I think is really wonderful. There's a stubborn insistence that as bleak as things have been, that they will not give up on the vision of a future that involves Israelis and Palestinians being good neighbors, and not just good neighbors, but good neighbors who also are committed to being good environmental stewards. It's one thing to say that that's what you support. It's another thing to bring together brilliant minds, serious international funding, and a whole cast of experts ranging from architects, engineers, water and sewage and a whole slew of other kinds of experts to do this advanced work to prepare for the day when this war is over and when rebuilding can begin. Bryan Schwartzman: So much of what you said just rings true and reminds me, Dr. Abu Hamed says in this interview, I think it's something he's said many times, "Nature knows no boundaries," and it's like a truism that's true. I remember hiking in the Golan and seeing these condors, I think they were condors, I'm sketchy on my aviary science, but they start their paths somewhere in Syria and end up in North Africa. It's all obviously one in environment, but they cross multiple borders to do that, and it kind of reminded me of thinking that at a time when these boundaries seem like worlds apart. Rabbi Maurice Harris: Absolutely. I'll add one other thought, which is the work involved in this particular project reminds me of the rabbinic teaching from [foreign language 00:08:38]. It's not your duty to finish the work that needs to be done, but you're also not at liberty to desist from it. And the reason that Jumpstarting Hope reminds me of that rabbinic teaching is because I think it's really hard to lean into that particular value when things are bleak, when it may be even impossible to picture a future in which Palestinians and Israelis are peacefully coexisting as good neighbors. But this teaching urges us to not give up on doing the work. It urges us not to get discouraged by letting us know that we may not witness the finishing of the work, and it also tells us we have a moral duty to keep tending to the work towards whatever the positive vision is and do our part to try to help bring that reality about. So it very much reminds me of that teaching from the sages. Bryan Schwartzman: Thank you so much, Rabbi Harris, Maurice, for sharing your thoughts for coming on the show ,and we'll see you next time you're in a Netflix special or hopefully before. Rabbi Maurice Harris: Probably hopefully before. It's going to be a long time. Bryan Schwartzman: Okay, now let's get to our guests. Tareq Abu Hamed PhD is the executive director of the Arava Institute for Environmental Studies in Israel. He previously served as Israel's Ministry of Sciences deputy chief scientist and later, acting chief scientist, the highest ranking Palestinian in the Israeli government at the time. He holds a doctorate in chemical engineering from Ankara University in Turkey and he grew up in East Jerusalem. Rabbi Michael Cohen is the director of community relations for the Friends of the Arava Institute and divides his time between Vermont and Southern Israel. He is a 1990 graduate of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College and the author of Einstein's Rabbi: A Tale of Science and the Soul. Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed and Rabbi Michael Cohen, welcome to the podcast. It's so good to have you here. Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: Thank you for having us. Rabbi Michael Cohen: Absolutely. Bryan Schwartzman: So just due to scheduling, not necessarily for intentionality, we happen to be talking on Monday, October 7th. I guess I wanted to start just by asking the two of you how you're doing today, how you're feeling. It's a rough day for those of us abroad who care about the region, I'm having a difficulty imagining what it might be like for you. Rabbi Michael Cohen: It's not an easy day. Last night on the kibbutz, we had a public event where we addressed October 7th from a number of angles, text study, people sharing about the lives of people they know who were murdered that day, and then I just came from a time with the students where they shared what they're going through today as well. I will say in many ways why it's a difficult day, it's a painful day, it's a hard day, I am actually much more concerned about today now than a year ago and the events in the region and what the next couple of weeks may look like here. I'm much more concerned and thinking about that, truth be told. That reality as we get reminded of it and just waiting for the shoe to drop, basically, right now. Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: I agree with Rabbi Michael. It's really a horrible time. It's very hard to wake up, knowing that you are marking the anniversary of such tragic event where you refresh the memories of October 7th and what happened on that day and what happened after that, the thousands of people were killed on both sides. Hostages are still in Gaza. Innocent people are still suffering in the Gaza Strip and other areas in the region, and we know that this wound will never heal. But this painful event should provide us with the strength to continue the work of the Arava Institute where we bring people together, where we use environment, where we use science to build bridges to fight the extremists on both sides and give people on both sides the opportunity to meet, know, and understand the other side. Rabbi Michael Cohen: And related to that, it's why we get up and do the work that we do. Tomorrow, three Palestinians from the West Bank will be joining our student body here. We applied originally for their permits from the authorities and they were denied, and then we reapplied and called in all of the people we know who could maybe put pressure on that decision. And so we have three Palestinians arriving in the midst of all of this, which is incredible when you think about it. The students met these three Palestinians on a Zoom call last week and it was very emotional for all of then, but one of the beauties of what we do here is the students get to know each other beyond their national religious labels. And already, one of the students who's going to be working with two of them on projects says, "Two of them are really nerdy." We get to know each other as human beings, and as Tareq has often said, the main thing that we build here is trust. And when you build trust, you can vehemently disagree with somebody, but you can still imagine going forward and working on it. And that's the power of what we do here, even in the midst of all of this. Bryan Schwartzman: Wow. Can you help ground our listeners a little more and say a little bit more about the institute? Where is it? What does it do? Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: Yeah, indeed. The Arava Institute for Environmental Studies is a non-governmental organization that advances cross-border environmental cooperation on the face of the political conflict. We are located on Kibbutz Ketura in the Southern Arava Valley, 30 miles from the Gulf of Eilat, Aqaba, and we do this transponder work through three main pillars. One is the academic program, which is a university level program. Students come to the Arava Institute, spend one or two semesters, then they go back to their universities and the time that they spent here is considered part of their degree. One-third of our students are Jewish Israelis, one-third Arabic speakers from Palestine, including West Bank, Gaza, Palestinians from Israel, Jordanians, Moroccans, Sudanese. One-third international students. They come, again, for university level program and they live with each other through that academic semester. When I say they live, I mean it. We are located in the desert in the middle of nowhere in the Kibbutz. Students go to the same dining room, the same classroom, and at the end of the day they share rooms, so they live with each other 24/7 for three to four months. And in order to have a healthy academic program, in order to build understanding, that leads us to trust. We have the dialogue forum where students discussed identity, politics, culture, religion. They talk about Nakba, they talk about independence. They share family stories, personal stories. And you can imagine putting in one classroom a Palestinian from a refugee camp or from Gaza with an Israeli student who just finished his or her army service and you ask them to talk about water lines or talk about Nakba, talk about independence. These discussions are very hot, so they shout, they cry, but again, they go to the same dining room, to the same classroom, and they share rooms at the end of the day. So through these dialogue programs, through these real discussions, they build that type of understanding. And understanding, as Rabbi Michael said, doesn't mean that I agree with you. I totally disagree with you, but I understand the point that brought you to this belief, and this is how they build understanding. Through this dialogue, through this understanding, they create this community of people who are willing to talk, to listen to each other, to do joint programs, to save the environment, and to become the ambassadors of peace. The second pillar is the research programs that we have. We have six research centers, all of them touch upon climate change. We have applied environmental, diplomacy political ecology, water management, and most of the research that we do here at the Arava Institute has the trans-boundary aspect. That means we do this research with researchers from Palestine, with researchers from Jordan. Here we live in a region where we share almost all the natural resources, which means in order to deal with climate change, in order to understand the impact of climate change on these natural resources, the impact of pollution. It doesn't matter where the pollution starts, it impacts everyone in this region. I'll give you the example, the aquifers in this region. There is no single aquifer in this area here that is not shared. The coastal aquifer is shared between Gaza and Israel. The mountain aquifer is shared in the West Bank and Israel, the Arava aquifer is shared between Jordan and Israel. So in order to deal with these natural resources, to manage them, you have to talk to your neighbors, and talking to a neighbor in such region with a conflict is very challenging. To have these sustainable partnerships, the sustainable programs or projects, you have to build trust. You have to discuss with your partners not only the environment, but also the politics of the region. This is how we implement projects on the ground, and this is actually what helped us stay in business during this very difficult period. I'm very proud to share with you that we did not lose any other partners since October 7th, non from Morocco, Jordan, Palestine, United, Arab, Emirates, you name it. Even we managed to widen our network of partners. Now we have projects in the West Bank, in Gaza even with people that we did not work with before October 7th, and that's because of the trust and that's our recipe. And the third main pillar, because we are an organization that wants to advance cross-border environmental cooperation, we do not only do research for the sake of research. We work with communities on the ground, work with farmers, with schools, with the corporations in the region because we want normal people, regular people to benefit from these regional corporations. And all of these projects, again, has the trans-boundary aspect to give people the know-how, the technology to help them cope with the impact of the climate change on their daily activities because the know-how and the technology keeps them doing their jobs. It prevents them from migrating to US or to Europe or maybe to other cities in this region. So through this regional cooperation, actually we contribute to the stability of the region and we build understanding and we build long-lasting sustainable partnerships in the region. Rabbi Michael Cohen: And I would add to that in terms of how we're able to bring this group that's at war with each other and why it's still able to work. I would say there's five points or five pieces of the puzzle. Three have to do with location. So one is we're Kibbutz Ketura, which was founded shortly after the Yom Kippur War by the young Judea Zionist North American Movement that brought its ideas of democracy and pluralism to how they established the Kibbutz here. So you have both intentionally religious and non-religious Jews living together. So the Arava Institute, which is very pluralistic in terms of the diversity of itself, is coming into a community that understands the value of pluralism, the value of diversity, the difficulties of it, and so there's a sense that it understands what we're trying to do here. The second is we're in the desert, and there's something incredibly calming about the desert. It's very different from what we call the markaz or the center of the country, and that also massages the experiences that the students have when they're here. Third, we're here in the Middle East. One of the great tragedies of this conflict is neighbors don't know each other. And so on weekends when there's not the situation we've had this last year, people are constantly going to each other's homes in Israel, Palestine, Jordan. And I've heard this story over and over again, where a Jordanian will take their Israeli and American Jewish students home to Jordan, where there's a lot of pushback for them being here, and their family falls in love with these Jewish students. But at the end of the day, they're discussing with their parents and one of them says, "You know, I discovered I have more in common with the Israeli Jew than the American Jew." Yeah. They live in the Middle East just like you do. And those are the barriers that we're able to break down by being in the neighborhood and getting to travel around the neighborhood. So these three aspects of location, kibbutz, desert, Middle East help, and perhaps the most important is time. Usually when you bring Israelis and Palestinians together, it's for a weekend, maybe two weeks in the summer. This is four or eight months, if they're doing one or two semesters, 24/7, which means they are hiking together, taking classes together. They're not just meeting over the conflict, but they have what I call other touch points. They're sharing their holidays, their food, all of these other things. They get to know each other beyond the label of Israeli, Palestinian, et cetera, and that builds the trust that Tareq was talking about, and that's such an important ingredient. And the fifth one is actually what the conflict is about, which is the land. When we look at the land from the perspective of geopolitics, we see lines, borders, walls, and divisions. We look at the exact same land from the perspective of the environment, as we say here, nature knows no borders, a completely different vista opens up. It doesn't mean the problems go away, but you can now enter it from a different door, which then allows you to go back there. So those five pieces massage the experiences and allow them to have the difficult conversations without things falling apart. Bryan Schwartzman: So much of what you said is amazing, especially the fact that not only did you not lose partners, but you gained them during a time when so many relationships have been breaking down. I guess I am wondering, have you lost Israeli and Palestinian students and alumni to the conflict? Are you able to track how your broader community is doing with the situation so fluid? Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: Look, again, because our goal is really to create this intentional community, since October 7th, we are in touch with all of our partners in the region, especially the Gazan partners. From day one, almost like every other day we have a Zoom or phone call with one of them. We have a weekly Zoom with our Gazan partners, the whole team. At the beginning we focused on solidarity, empathy, and now we are just talking about projects. And because we managed to keep these partnerships, again, because they are based on the foundation of knowing us very well. They know the agenda of the Arava Institute, which is the interest of the region, the stability of the region, and the shared and the shared environment. And the other important point that helped us to manage these partnerships, these partnerships are equal partnerships. We do not go to a Palestinian organization and say, "This is how you should do things," or, "This is what you need to solve this environmental issue." No, they come to us, we go to them and we say, "This is the challenge," and we identify the challenge together and we design the solution together. So that equality is very important in the relationship. And regarding the alumni, we have an alumni network. We have a Palestinian, Jordanian, Israeli, and American alumni coordinators for people who manage this alumni network. Before October 7th, we used to have an annual conference for the alumni where they come discuss ideas, share ideas. These conferences used to happen in the West Bank, in Jerusalem, in Tel Aviv, in Karatiyya, at the institute sometimes, in Jordan. Every other week they have Zoom. I did not hear about any alumni who left that network because our alumni is actually the main product of the Arava Institute because they are the ambassadors of the environment. They're the ambassadors of peace. And as Rabbi Michael said, the relationship between the alumni is not based on a weekend meeting. These are very important activities when you bring people for one day or two days, but I call them honeymoon. They're nice, people chat, sit down, but four months, this is how you build really intentional community that sticks with each other. It was very heartwarming to see Jewish Israeli alumni fundraising to help their Gazan colleagues, friends to leave Gazan to go out of Gaza. It's very heartwarming to see Palestinian students messaging their friends who are serving in the army, wishing them to come back safe, to take care of themselves. To see a Palestinian messaging and Israeli soldier wishing him to be safe, a soldier that who's fighting his people, it's crazy. Probably they totally disagree, they don't like what they're doing in Gaza or the West Bank, but they were exposed to the human in that soldier and they care about them, and the same thing also for the Israelis. So this is the relationship that we are talking about. Again, it's more than just a friendship because it was a very tough experience living with the other. We are talking about a group of people who never met an Israeli before. When I talk about the Palestinians, and the Israelis also. Probably they met a few Palestinians when they were soldiers, but they never felt the human in the other, and that's the game-changer. Once you are exposed to the human in the other, that becomes just technicality. That's why we managed to keep this community of researchers, community of alumni and even partners together. Two weeks ago, we had meetings with Palestinians from the West Bank, with Gazans, with Jordanians, with Moroccans outside the region. People are still willing to cooperate with the Arava Institute. People are still willing to discuss projects, to discuss the day after and how we should work hard on that. Rabbi Michael Cohen: I also want to say about in terms of the luxury of having the students together for such a long time. So we have something, Tareq mentioned the dialogue before, where the students say and hear the hardest things about the conflict to create a safe space. And in the early years of the institute, this conversation would take place. When the second Intifada hit, we had to create a safe space, and it's evolved over the years, but we have this safe space where these really, really difficult conversations take place. And the luxury of time is you don't have to respond immediately. So Mohammed may have said something that really pissed you off, and you can wait two or three weeks and say, "Mohammed, let's go walk out the back gate in the desert and discuss it." Or, "Shulamit, I can't believe you said that. Can we discuss this now over a cup of tea a week later?" And that allows for these amazing relationships to hold and to form as well, because of that luxury of the time and dealing with the real issues. We don't put anything under the rug. Nothing goes under the rug here, I can assure you of that. Bryan Schwartzman: This is like the opposite of arguing with somebody on social media, it sounds. You really have a relationship with the person that said that and value that relationship in some way, so that influences your response. Rabbi Michael Cohen: Yeah. You use the word relationship, that is so key. We create relationships here, and that's why you can have these discussions that don't have things fall apart because there's a relationship. There's that trust there, and that's intentionally created by how we structure the program. Bryan Schwartzman: Did you know that Ritualwell is now holding a 15-minute virtual minion every Monday, every week at noon Eastern Time where you can join a virtual community to recite the Mourner's Kaddish for a deceased loved one, as well as a Mi Shebeirach, which is a prayer for healing? And each session, each Monday will be hosted by a different Ritualwell contributor. This Monday, October 21st will be led by Rabbi Deborah Waxman, who is the president and CEO of Reconstructing Judaism. To register, go to ritualwell.org and we all hope to see you there. Okay, back to our interview. So this already sounds that you're achieving if not the impossible, the highly improbable. So we could get into the realm of even more improbable and wondering if you can tell us about Jumpstarting Hope in Gaza. It sounds like a big topic. What is it? I know it was first proposed a couple of months ago, the situation keeps changing, but what is Jumpstarting Hope in Gaza? Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: This is actually a project that the Arava Institute with their main partner in Gaza established. It's a coalition of Palestinian and Israeli civil society organizations, and actually, also American organizations to establish this partnership and coalition to help people in Gaza get their immediate basic needs because rebuilding Gaza, even the planning step or a phase of Gaza will take years. But people will need water, electricity, wastewater treatment. They need internet, they need agriculture. And this coalition with our Palestinian partners is focusing on providing people, and civil society organizations that we worked with in the past and they were vetted by Israel, with decentralized technologies. Most of these technologies we with our Palestinian partners installed in Gaza Strip before October 7th. We're talking about off-grid water generators, systems that generate water from air systems that desalinate seawater based on solar energy. You don't need to be connected to the grid, systems that treat the wastewater off-grid wastewater treatment systems. Our Palestinian partners managed to build several refugee camps in Gaza housing thousands of people, and our goal with this coalition is actually to convert these refugee camps into green camps, to provide them with these technologies on water, wastewater, electricity, waste management. Help them not to build these shelters with tents. We want caravans to be used because we know how much people suffered from these tents in the winter and also in the summer. The advantage of these technologies, that you can install them in one day. They are modular, they scalable, and they can provide people with their basic needs until Gaza is rebuilt. And this coalition is growing. We started with two organizations and now we are very close to 20 organizations who are working with each other to help people in Gaza get their daily needs. Rabbi Michael Cohen: An important sidebar to that story. So Vivian Silver, a blessed memory, was one of the founders of Women Wage Peace, who unfortunately was murdered a year ago. And one of these shelters for Gazan refugees within Gaza, our Gazan partner insisted that one of the buildings be named after Vivian Silver, so a Palestinian insisting it be named after an Israeli who would work with them in the midst of all of this and that speaks volumes. In the asymmetry of the sensational, as I often talk about, sensational gets all the attention, violence, et cetera, and we need to focus on it and look at it, but it's not the totality of the picture of what's going on. It's the Arava Institute, it's the other 160 organizations of the Alliance for Middle East Peace. And we need to find a better way to amplify what we do and the media needs to take us much more seriously because we are the only alternative model for Israelis and Palestinians, and it's powerful and it's real. It's not easy, but it's doable, and that's what we model. Bryan Schwartzman: With the Israeli army still in Gaza, with Hamas ostensibly the governing body there, it is hard to imagining to imagine this work you're talking about going forward. Is it actually happening or what needs to happen in order for some of these solutions to be implemented? Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: Look, we managed to implement these projects in Gaza before October 7th. We managed to get the permission of the Israeli Civil Administration, our Palestinian partners in Gaza managed to install these systems before October 7th. We brought into the Arava Institute groups of engineers and technicians to train them on how to run these systems, so we have the team on the ground. Our Palestinian partners with this team that used to work with us and still working with us, they built these refugee camps, they managed to dig actually wells of water and they're just waiting for the desalination units. We managed to get permission from the Civil Administration for several systems or technologies, and they are ready to go into Gaza. There are still systems that we are negotiating with the civil administration to get permission for these systems to go into Gaza. We know where these systems will be installed, who will be installing them, who will be using them, so it's not the first time that we implement project in Gaza. I'm talking about systems, even though they are decentralized off the grid, but they are high-tech and they produce huge amounts of water. We're talking about systems that can generate thousands of liters of drinking water a day or treat thousands of liters of wastewater a day. Bryan Schwartzman: What does decentralized mean? That word is in your executive summary, for those of us that maybe don't work in this field. Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: Decentralized system means it's off the grid. It's not connected to the electricity grid or to the water grid or to the wastewater grid in Gaza. It's a standalone system independent from the grid, uses the sun to produce electricity using solar panels and has batteries. That's what we mean by decentralized. And the last thing with these technologies, again, you can scale them. They are modular and you can transfer them from one location to another. Rabbi Michael Cohen: And also in terms of the immediacy of the catastrophe that we face there in terms of all the rebuilding that needs to be done, what we're really providing is a bridge until Gaza is rebuilt, which will be five, seven years after the conflict end. That's what we're talking about here. But the fact that we're using solar off-grid technologies is also a model that when Gaza gets rebuilt, the thought is this is modeling how it can get rebuilt. Remember, where this conflict is going on, our global house is on fire and we've kind of forgotten that. And so this becomes a model for what will be happening in Gaza now, but long-term, when Gaza gets rebuilt, not forgetting that the house is on fire. Bryan Schwartzman: And this is government funded, private funded, a mix? Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: No, these projects are funded by individual donors from foundations, international organizations, not from governments of the region. Bryan Schwartzman: So if there is somebody out there who cares about the lives of Gazans but maybe would be fearful any money being used in Gaza could somehow be siphoned or used by Hamas, what would you say to them? Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: Look, all the organizations that we work with are vetted by the Israeli government, by the Israeli Civil Administration. They know exactly where these systems are installed, they know exactly and we know exactly who is using these systems. And again, we managed to implement these projects before October 7th when Hamas was much, much stronger and we got the permission to have these systems. We are talking about humanitarian projects that don't have any dual use and we're talking about water systems, small scale. And once the Israeli army gives permission for such systems, which means it's 100% safe and will be in good hands in Gaza. Bryan Schwartzman: Just clarifying, so the army has not given permission yet or it has already? I didn't- Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: For some of these technologies, yes, and for the rest we are still negotiating with them. The army gets all the specifications, the very detailed micro level specifications of all of these systems. The systems pass through very I would say strict examination, the system itself, before it's sent into Gaza. Rabbi Michael Cohen: Actually, today we just got permission for large water bladders to go into Gaza made out of plastic. One of the technology was something called water gel that's able to suck drinking water out of the air, but you want to store it so you've got that water. So we just got permission for that to go into Gaza today as one example. Bryan Schwartzman: What are some of the environmental impacts, ramifications of the war over the past year? I feel like we haven't heard a lot about that, certainly in the western media. Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: Yeah. Look, it's a disaster. Wars are environmental disaster and what's happening in Gaza, it's a larger disaster because we are talking about the waste of the war, the explosions, the chemicals, the toxic materials. We're talking about building rubble and we are also talking about the solid waste and the wastewater of 2 million people that are not treated right now. All the wastewater is dumped into the fields. All the wastewater is flowing into the Mediterranean sea. All agriculture is not treated. We know Gaza, a lot of refugee camps there, a lot of buildings still use asbestos and this asbestos is destroyed by their bombardments, so you have a lot of particulate matter in the air from the asbestos and also in the soil. We are talking about from all aspects, it's an environmental disaster that needs a lot of attention once this war is over. And actually, one of the partners that we work with in Gaza, the initiative is actually focused on converting building rubbles into building blocks, where they recycle the building rubble and use it to rebuild Gaza Strip. Rabbi Michael Cohen: And going back to the notion of nature knows no borders, all that water that goes into the Mediterranean polluted from Gaza, because of the way the currents go, all that water goes up to the Israeli coast. So it all is intertwined literally and figuratively. Bryan Schwartzman: And even in peacetime, water is a central concern for everybody. Right? It's like I live on the East Coast of the United States and it's hard for us to imagine we turn on a faucet, we don't think about it. We shower as long as we want. It's a very different reality. Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: It is. Water here is it is scarce. We know how much effort is invested in producing our water, which is based on desalination. People value every drop of water here and when you have such serious pollution resource for the coastal aquifer and for the eastern Mediterranean, it becomes a concern for the people because most of our water comes from the sea, from the desalination. And when you have a polluted sea water, you cannot desalinate it. So that's a challenge and the concern for the people and for the experts who work in this field, and it's not only for drinking, also for agricultural activities. The impact of climate change, the reduction on the rainwater, the increased salinity of the aquifers pushes a lot of farmers to leave their farms and migrate to other regions, which increases the instability in the region. So the work of Arava Institute is it provides these farmers, provides these people with the know-how, with the technology to help them have high-quality water to keep their daily activities. Rabbi Michael Cohen: One of our centers here is the Center for Transboundary Water Management, directed by Dr. Clive Lipchin, who's really become one of the world leaders on the issues of waters that cross borders. And in this part of the world, it had to be transboundary in the title. There's no aquifer, there's no river that stays within a border. You have to work with your neighbor, and often it's more than one neighbor. Bryan Schwartzman: So many of us abroad that care about the region, that care about Israel, that care about Palestine, I think our whatever, opinion, perspective we're coming from are feeling a strong sense of despair. And it just seems like the two of you and the work you're doing, you don't have time for despair. There's people who need water. However improbable it seems, you're going to work to give them water, or however hard it might be to get people to talk to one another, you're going to do it. How do you fight against despair or how do you work in spite of it if it's there? Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: Actually, our fight is actually with those who don't believe in the importance of bringing people together. We're still in business and we wake up every morning to do this work because we know it's working, because we know that this methodology, this environmental diplomacy, this science diplomacy is working when you bring people together around one or common cause. We see how the students come to the Arava Institute and what they become when they leave the Arava Institute. We see the partnerships in the region. We see our contribution to the stability of the region. When we give the opportunity for a Palestinian farmer to stay in his land and not migrate to other regions, this is what makes our day. When we give an opportunity for a Palestinian student to do PhD here and go to one of the universities in Palestine and not migrate and help his or her community, this is what keeps us in this business. When we see how Israelis and Palestinians relate to each other, who works with the Arava Institute, this is what keeps us in this business. We see there is also our work and that's what motivates us and keeps us to doing this work even during this horrible times because we know this recipe is working, and working very, very, very well. If Palestinian is willing to message us or calls us during terror attack or during rockets, this is how it should be. Rabbi Michael Cohen: It's interesting, the wording of the psalm, the great line, "Seek peace and pursue it." So it says to seek peace and pursue it, not to be passive, to be proactive. It doesn't say, "Seek peace and pursue it and you will achieve it," it says, "Seek peace and pursue it. We have a job to do," even more so during these difficult times, and that's what pushes us forward. We have an important job to do. Bryan Schwartzman: I meant to ask this earlier, Dr. Abu Hamed, I read an online bio that said you were from East Jerusalem. That's correct? Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: Yeah. I'm from East Jerusalem. I grew up in East Jerusalem and I'm, again, a strong believer on experiencing the other firsthand to live with the other. And that's an opportunity I had when I was at the high school, where I worked and volunteered in Kibbutz [inaudible 00:51:49], which is literally next door to my village, and that was my first exposure to my Jewish neighbor that changed my life. It gave me the opportunity to tell my story, it gave them the opportunity to tell their story to me, and I saw the impact of it on myself. That's why I am still in this business, to bring people together around the science, which is a global language. Bryan Schwartzman: Most East Jerusalemites have a status that's different from Palestinian citizens of Israel and residents of the West Bank in Gaza, from what I understand. I was wondering how the community in East Jerusalem has been affected by the last year. That's probably a 10-hour question. Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: East Jerusalem, they are residents of Israel and not citizens of Israel. What does that mean? That mean that they have Israeli ID, but they are Palestinians. They hold a Jordanian passport. It's complicated. They vote for the Palestinian parliament and the Palestinian presidency, but they do not vote for the Israeli parliament or the president. They vote for those who do not control them, they do not vote for those who control them. It's complicated. The situation in East Jerusalem is similar to the rest of the country on both sides. People are hopeless. People want to see an end of this war. People want to understand what is the goal of this war? People really want to hear the word of peace the day after sustainable solution. And look, everyone in this region is fed up, is tired from these battles. Even though everyone is talking about regional war, Israel identifying this as a war, no, this is a battle. The real war is the war for peace. The result of this war should be a sustainable region, sustainable peace. If we do not achieve this, we will continue these battles endless, and that's very bad for the region. The world that we should do is the world of stability and peace. Rabbi Michael Cohen: And related to that, we have certainly our divisions here, where there's certainly the divisions back in the United States. And I will say a number of years ago in an amazing act of bipartisan voting, Congress passed the Nita Lowey Middle East Peace Partners Act, named after the great Democratic Congresswoman who was retiring, supported by Republicans. $50 million for each of the next five years to support this ecosystem of Israeli and Palestinian organizations working together, and we need to invest even more. Those of us in the Alliance for Middle East Peace, of which the Arava Institute is part of, we're trying to work on an international fund for Israeli-Palestinian peace modeled after the International Fund for Ireland that absolutely paved the way to the Good Friday Accords that ended the troubles in Northern Ireland. They were spending, after the international fund was established, about $40 per person on this kind of work. We're doing three or $4 now here, even with MEPA. We have to invest more in peace if that's the outcome we really want. Bryan Schwartzman: Yeah. If we were talking in say 1980, it would be inconceivable that there'd be a peace agreement in Northern Ireland that would now have lasted 25 years. Rabbi Michael Cohen: I guess it's important, and I'll say this. First of all, the fund came in during some of the worst years of the troubles and the violence has gone away, but it's not a love fest over there and we need to be very realistic. We often, my wife and I, are going back and forth between the Kibbutz in our home in Vermont. I work for the Friends of the Arava Institute when I'm back there. We often stop off in Europe, and we've often stopped off in the Dolomites in Italy, which was part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire until World War I. It was then given to Italy after World War I. There are still tensions 100 years later, where there's German language there and German food and German culture, and Italy actually a few years ago had to create some document recognizing that. That's 100 years after that conflict ended. So we have to be very realistic. Peace doesn't mean the issues go away. Peace means you create a wholesome way to really deal with the issues at hand, and we have to get much more sophisticated understanding when we talk about peace. It doesn't mean things go away, it doesn't mean it's a love fest immediately. Hopefully that will take place for our grandchildren and great-grandchildren, but we've got to get that set in place. Bryan Schwartzman: May it be so. Are there other things you'd want either our listeners to know or that you'd ask them to do? Rabbi Michael Cohen: Certainly if you want to know more about us, go to our website, Arava.org, or go to the Friends of the Arava Institute, you can get on a mailing list. We always are looking for financial support. Often, most years we do a bike ride from Jerusalem down here to a lot as a way of seeing the country environmentally, getting to know the institute, so there are ways of knowing more about us and supporting us in the work that we do. Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: And we also do a lot of study tools in the region, trans-boundary tools, Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Morocco, to show people the regional projects that we implement. Rabbi Michael Cohen: And if you've got children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews who are looking for an amazing experience. I've been involved, as I mentioned, since the doors opened in 1996, and I'll say this and I say it often sounds very trite, but you come to the Arava Institute and your life changes. It is such a profound experience on so many different levels. Bryan Schwartzman: Well, I'm going to put it on my itinerary for the next time I'm in your part of the world. I'm sure it wasn't your goal, but I for one, I'm feeling better on this day after talking to you both for an hour than I did before, so I thank you for that. And I really appreciate the conversation, and I hope we have the chance to talk again and we can talk about the progress you've made. Rabbi Michael Cohen: Great. Brian, thank you for reaching out to us. We really appreciate it. Dr. Tareq Abu Hamed: I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Bryan Schwartzman: Thank you. Thank you for listening. I see from our metrics, our numbers keep going up and up. We're at more than 122,000 episodes downloaded, so thank you for that and keep downloading however you're doing it. And certainly, if you like what you're hearing, especially on Apple Podcasts, please rate it. Please give us five stars because it'll help other people find out about the show. In the meantime, normally we're monthly, but this month we're giving a two for one and we'll be back later this month with an all new episode, just in time for a little before election day. So you will hear from us very soon. Evolve: Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations is executive produced by Rabbi Jacob Staub and edited by Sam Wachs. Our theme song, Ilu Finu, is by Rabbi Miriam Margles. This show is a production of Reconstructing Judaism. I'm your host, Brian Schwartzman, and I and the whole Evolve team will see you next time. (singing)