Bryan Schwartzman: From my home studio, welcome to Evolve: Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations. Rebecca Richman: Everybody produces garbage, but everybody doesn't have to live next to the landfill. Bryan Schwartzman: I'm your host, Bryan Schwartzman, and my guest today for a special April, Earth Day episode is Rabbi Rebecca Richman. We're going to be talking about her essay, Environmental Racism: A New Year, An Ancient Call for Breath. This piece is adapted from a Rosh Hashanah sermon that Richman delivered last year at the Germantown Jewish Centre in Philadelphia, which explains the "New Year" part of the title. Bryan Schwartzman: The article explores the lasting damage of redlining and other discriminatory policies, their impact on the environment, and it also gets into the role that Judaism can and should play in bringing about environmental justice. Bryan Schwartzman: So, before we dive in on this weighty topic, just want to remind you, the essays that we talk about on this show, they're available to read totally for free on the newly redesigned Evolve website, which is evolve.reconstructingjudaism.org. I'm really digging the new look. I invite you to explore it. I think it's much easier to find articles, to really look at articles by topic. The site was always very strong, but it's a big improvement. Bryan Schwartzman: To let you know, the essays are not required reading for this show. You're going to be able to follow along if you haven't read it, for sure. But we recommend checking them out for a deeper view, a deeper dive into these topics. And if you're interested in what we're talking about today, there's plenty of other articles under the heading of climate justice and environmentalism, just look by topic and you'll discover really a treasure trove of groundbreaking essays on this topic and others. Bryan Schwartzman: Okay, so we're going to get right to it. Time for today's guest. Quick introduction. Rabbi Rebecca Richman is the assistant rabbi and Beit Midrash director at the Germantown Jewish Centre right here in Philadelphia. She's also the founding director of the West Philadelphia Art Beit Midrash, a graduate of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College and the Wexner Graduate Fellowship. Bryan Schwartzman: She's also, in addition to her rabbinic work, a soferet, which is a Hebrew scribe, a Hebrew calligrapher, ceramicist and mikveh shomeret. So, with that, Rabbi Richman, Rabbi Rebecca Richman, it's such a pleasure to have you on this show. Welcome. Rebecca Richman: Thank you so much. What a pleasure. Bryan Schwartzman: So, we were just talking a little bit before, and so much to talk about. We've got a lot of ground to cover. Environmental racism, it was the focus of your 2020 Rosh Hashanah sermon, which is like your big chance to communicate a message to your congregants. It's obviously a big opportunity. And since then, you've spoken about the topic in an Evolve essay, and you gave a presentation at the 2021 Big Bold Jewish Climate Fest. So, why did you choose this topic, and why through a specific Jewish lens? Rebecca Richman: So, first I just want to acknowledge that I'm white. I'm a white Jew, and I come to this work with that identity, with awareness about that identity, and as a rabbi. So, I want to just acknowledge from the start that I'm not an expert. I'm not an expert by way of my own experience in proximity to environmental hazards, nor by extensive schooling. Rebecca Richman: I have certainly done, in college, I studied environmental science, and actually did a senior honor's thesis about child development and environmental consciousness and advocacy. So, these issues have been turning over in my mind for as long as I can remember, but I'm not an expert, and I imagine that many of our listeners may be. And so, I really hope to be able to be in conversation, and advocacy and community with you all. Rebecca Richman: So, I grew up in a house where my parents were both environmental scientists and advocates, and workers of sorts. And I also grew up in a synagogue community at Adat Shalom Reconstructionist Congregation in Bethesda, Maryland, where environmental consciousness and awareness were part of the liturgy, in a way, made possible in large part by Rabbi Fred Scherlinder Dobb, a huge environmental advocate in the Washington, DC area. Bryan Schwartzman: He's been a past guest, by the way. Rebecca Richman: Yeah, of course. So, environmental consciousness, awareness, justice were all part of the core of what it meant for me to be a thinking body at the dinner table, and also very much was tied into my Jewish identity. And just thinking about the way that our fight against racism needs to be so much so an interdisciplinary fight, and having that happen at the same time as COVID, watching communities of color be more affected in that moment, so much more visibly affected than white communities, just really was a huge call to me. Rebecca Richman: And I wanted to make clear to my community as well, that our fight against climate change and our fight against racism, our fight for climate justice and our fight to be an anti-racism community and place,are deeply, deeply tied together. And that came out for me, this summer, just so much so, as I was watching and taking part in this moment of reckoning in our country after the murder of George Floyd. Bryan Schwartzman: Wow. That's so different from my own experience, where I came out of college really with[out] any vocabulary to talk about environmental racism. And I told you before the show how 20 years ago, I broke a story about groundwater contamination in an African-American community in southeast Queens, and how it was my first time really thinking about that, which is why this topic is so important to me, because it sort of framed the early part of my career. Bryan Schwartzman: So, speaking of framing, your essay on the Evolve site, you really use the Philadelphia gas refinery as a way in to talk about the issue. Unless you go to the airport or live in the area, you could be in Philadelphia for months or years without seeing it, but then when you do, it's just this huge presence. So, can you talk a little bit about the refinery and maybe how you first reacted to seeing it? Rebecca Richman: Yeah, so it's the Philadelphia Energy Solutions oil refinery, which was the largest ... Bryan Schwartzman: Thanks. Rebecca Richman: Well, the second largest refinery on the east coast, wreaking havoc and damage for over 150 years in the city, in the neighborhood. It's in South Philadelphia, in the Grays Ferry neighborhood. And I actually ... I don't remember the first time I encountered it, but I do remember when I grew up, as I said, in the DC area, and my aunt and uncle live in Mount Airy, and we used to drive to see them. Rebecca Richman: Growing up, we would drive up from DC. And the way, if you are familiar with driving up 95 North to get to Mount Airy, or to get into the city, you get off of 95 near the airport and go over this bridge. And off to the left hand side, as you see the skyline of the city coming into view, there's this mess of smokestacks. Bryan Schwartzman: Right. This is right by 76, right? Rebecca Richman: Exactly. Oh, sorry. Off of ... Yeah. Right. Right before ... Off of 95, on your way to 76. Exactly. Bryan Schwartzman: Right. Rebecca Richman: So, I always remember passing over it, and feeling like, "That can't be good that this is this close to the city, right?" And I think we maybe even had discussions about it in the car, of course, with my parents. So, yeah. That was my first encounter. And I saw it again, I remember, when my partner and I moved to Philadelphia. Rebecca Richman: We drove a moving truck with our stuff up from DC, and we drove to our neighborhood, West Philadelphia, by way of that same bridge. And I remember thinking to myself, "This neighborhood that we're moving to is pretty close to that refinery, or those smokestacks." I didn't really know what it was at the time. "Is that really going to be safe and okay?" Rebecca Richman: And there was a piece published in the New York Times magazine this summer, all about that refinery and the fight to shut it down, successful. The work to shut it down, done in large part by community members and an organization called Philly Thrive. Bryan Schwartzman: We'll share that piece in our show notes, for sure. It was a really insightful piece. Rebecca Richman: Yeah. Great. So, Philly Thrive is working on a new campaign to make sure that ... It's called the Right to Thrive campaign, launched in October of 2020, working to repair the damage that's already been done, right? Just because the refinery has been shut down doesn't mean that people aren't still sick and aren't still dying. Bryan Schwartzman: There's evidence now, of decades of health repercussions for residents, right? Rebecca Richman: Absolutely. Cancers. In the article, someone references what they call the "South Philly postnasal drip," I think was the term that was used. Just incredible, incredible health repercussions. Cancer clusters and massive, massive sicknesses. Rebecca Richman: And types of cancer, like gallbladder cancer, that are not typically seen among younger and middle aged people, appearing in this neighborhood, repeatedly. So, working to repair that violence and damage, and also to figure out what cleanup needs to be done, what's sitting in the soil, what's sitting underneath, and what can be done with that massive, massive plot of land that is almost the size of Center City. Bryan Schwartzman: Wow, which is like ... I don't know, lower Manhattan, for maybe a New York-centric reference. Rebecca Richman: It's huge. Bryan Schwartzman: I'm so New York-centric. There's probably a lot of other examples. So, I know you're very interested in housing, and race politics and how this all ties together. I know probably most of us have heard the term "redlining," which actually is, from what I understand, a fairly complex set of policies. Can you begin to tie for us how this all relates to this refinery and the community around it? Rebecca Richman: So, I'm glad you raised this, because you can't really have a discussion about environmental racism without talking about housing. And this really takes us back to the 1930s in the wake of the Great Depression and FDR, and of course, the New Deal. Rebecca Richman: And one of the pieces of policy that came out of the New Deal is the National Housing Act of 1934, and the Home Owners' Loan Corporation, which worked to make maps to indicate to banks where would be "safe" or reliable neighborhoods to lend out mortgages. Rebecca Richman: And obviously, as we know, Black and brown neighborhoods were redlined and coded ... themselves were coded as the red ones, the not good ones, the ones where mortgages would be riskier to lend out. And I think what's really important to know is that redlining and that negative coding happened regardless of loan and mortgage payment history, which made it difficult, from that moment forward, if not impossible, for Black and brown to buy homes or refinance their mortgages. Rebecca Richman: So, what happens in the wake of that policy is, obviously, housing property values plummet. Landlords abandon properties, resources in inner city neighborhoods plummet down. And yeah, so things obviously get bad. And the story obviously doesn't end there. There are covenants in the suburbs that legally permit discrimination, so white people are permitted to not sell their homes to Black folks. Bryan Schwartzman: Right. Until 1968, that's perfectly legal, right? Rebecca Richman: Right. So, fast forward to 1968 with the Fair Housing Act, which tries to decrease segregation and discrimination moving forward, but does pretty much nothing in the way of repairing the inequity that's already built up over the past 30 years. Rebecca Richman: And as we know, those 30 years between the National Housing Act of 1934 and the Fair Housing Act of 1968 have drawn out and brought us to today, where housing discrimination and segregation are still visibly rampant. So, we are still living the legacy of these housing policies, and they have much to do with the environmental health make-up of our nation. Bryan Schwartzman: I mean, it might be an academic point. Do you have a sense, to ... and it might be too big a question. To what extent redlining really crystallized situations that were already in place, or actually created those situations? I mean, my sense is that the refinery was built prior to the '30s, right? So, I guess that's ... Rebecca Richman: Yeah. Well, the problem is that another ... These areas weren't just coded based on race. They were also coded like, a neighborhood that was next to an existing hazardous waste site is not going to get an A rating coding. It's not going to get coded as a green or blue area. It's going to get coded as red or maybe yellow. So, I think the answer is both, although I would certainly defer to my partner, who is an urban planner and expert on that for more details there. Yeah. Bryan Schwartzman: So, while we're talking about the repercussions of some of these policies, do you see this legacy playing a role in the higher instances of deaths from COVID-19 in minority communities? Or are they separate issues? Rebecca Richman: 100%. 100%. In a White House briefing on April 7th, 2020, so we're into the pandemic, but it's early. Fauci says, "We've known literally forever that diseases like diabetes, hypertension, obesity and asthma are disproportionately affecting the minority populations, especially the African-Americans." Rebecca Richman: And he continues, "Unfortunately, when you look at the predisposing conditions that lead to a bad outcome with coronavirus, the things that get people into ICUs, that require intubation and lead to death, they are just those very comorbidities that are unfortunately disproportionately prevalent in the African-American population." Rebecca Richman: And so, I guess I wanted to ... I raise that just to say that we've known this. We could have predicted that before the pandemic reached North American soil. And just to speak a bit to how we've gotten to that disproportionate exposure, I guess I want to take us back to 1978, to Houston, Texas, and introduce our listeners, if you don't already know of him, to Dr. Robert D. Bullard, who's often known as the father of the environmental justice movement. Rebecca Richman: So in 1978, he tells this story that his wife comes home and tells him, "Hey. Today, you know what today I did? I sued the state of Texas and a company that were trying to put a landfill in the middle, like smack in the middle, of a middle class Black neighborhood in Houston." Rebecca Richman: And it's interesting that he notes, just to ... These issues are so intersectional, and just of note, is that, in this instance, it was a middle class Black neighborhood, right? So it's not a low income community. It's a middle class Black neighborhood. This neighborhood actually has lots of trees, unlike many predominantly Black neighborhoods, which I'd be happy to talk about, in terms of heat. Rebecca Richman: So anyway, his wife says, basically, "I need some help with someone pointing out ... I need some help from someone who's a sociologist," and that's her husband. So, he explains that from the '30s to 1978, again, that same time period that we just talked about, five out of five city-owned landfills in Houston were in Black neighborhoods. Six out of eight city-owned incinerators were in Black neighborhoods, and three out of four privately-owned landfills were in Black neighborhoods. Rebecca Richman: And of course, this is stark on its own. Black people in that city only made up, at that point, 25% of the population. And as he's telling this story, he says something remarkable, which is so simple, which is, "Everybody produces garbage, but everybody doesn't have to live next to the landfill." Rebecca Richman: Except, of course, we know by the environmental history of this nation where the landfills get put, and where communities with less access to wealth and capital, which of course, Black companies have less access to, because of the legacy of housing discrimination, which was the primary way that White Americans have built up wealth over the last almost 100 years. Yeah. These issues just continue to spiral together, as you can see here. Bryan Schwartzman: So, clearly, cancer clusters, environmental catastrophes are not exclusive to minority communities. I mean, all one has to do is read A Civil Action, one of the most heartbreaking books I've ever read, about cancer caused from the water supply in a white working class suburb outside of Boston. So, I mean, there's been- Rebecca Richman: Yeah. In college ... Just to interrupt for a second, in college, I studied with my most amazing professor, Professor Laura Golden, taught several of the classes that I took around environmental justice, and we actually went to go visit with some of the people who gave testimonies in that book. I went to Brandeis. So, close by, and we actually got to go visit with some of those folks. So, all white folks. Yeah. Bryan Schwartzman: So, I mean, is there any possibility for a coalition there, or is there any way that keeping the focus on race detracts from the bigger picture? I mean, I'm just asking because I mean, those were heartbreaking stories as well, obviously. Rebecca Richman: I think it's a really important thing that all people who are experiencing adverse health because of where they are living are able to come together, bring their voices to the table, make their stories known, and rest assured that policy makers and those with power are going to make changes. Rebecca Richman: Obviously, a collaboration is lovely and wonderful, but I think one of the biggest problems is that the people sitting at the table who have power to make decisions are so often predominantly white people, and sometimes, there are white people who have these experiences or are in a community with people who have the experiences. But largely, Black Americans who are experiencing environmental racism are wildly underrepresented at the table, and in these conversations. Rebecca Richman: And it's not just a matter of these conversations in governmental bodies, but also in environmental advocacy groups. The environmental justice and environmental movement since its growth in the 60s ... its birth, I should say, in the 60s, has really been a White space. Rebecca Richman: And I think that it's not in any way to negate the experience of white people, but just to say they're not the only ones who have that experience, and they're certainly not the ones who have ... It's just, there's so much more to the story, so we need to have everyone be at the table with each other. Rebecca Richman: And I think that we also need to be careful that collaboration doesn't come at the cost of acknowledging the differences in experiences that people have had, based on race. Certainly, not necessarily parallel experiences in this country. Bryan Schwartzman: Are things or awareness changing, at least a little bit? I mean, we know that, at least a reference to environmental racism and justice was in one of the first executive orders signed by President Biden. Are we turning some kind of corner? Rebecca Richman: I would like to think so. I certainly hope so. And I think that we're going to be pushed there faster and faster. The climate crisis is making all of these issues more and more pressing and acute, and if we don't step up to the plate, the plate is going to come flying at us. Bryan Schwartzman: Okay. So, if you're enjoying this interview, and I sure hope you are, go ahead and hit the "subscribe" button, and in the future, you'll be among the first to know when a new episode just magically appears. And if you're a new listener, new to the show, welcome. So happy to have you out there, part of our community and conversation. Go ahead and check out our back catalog for lots of other interesting interviews. Bryan Schwartzman: And if you want to go one step to the side or one step further, take a minute and give us a five-star rating or review on whatever platform you're listening on. Apple Podcast, Spotify, they all take reviews, and those kind of ratings really help other people find out about the show. Algorithms, all that stuff. I don't really understand, but they get people here. They get ears in front of the speakers or whatever. Bryan Schwartzman: So, please go ahead and spread the word. And thank you for being a part of Evolve: Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations. So, right about now, I'm going to send us back to our interview with Rabbi Rebecca Richman. So, we've been talking for a while. Your title is "Rabbi." We haven't yet mentioned the Torah or anything to do with Jewish tradition. Rebecca Richman: Yeah. Bryan Schwartzman: How do you look for Torah as a model for how to talk about this issue in present day? Rebecca Richman: Yeah, so when the Israelites are about to enter the land of Israel, Moses, who has been leading them for decades, gives them a giant list of instructions for how to be, as they go forward. And one of the instructions that he gives them is specifically about ensuring that the spaces that they live in are sacred and safe. Rebecca Richman: And one of the instructions that he gives in the Book of Devarim, in Deuteronomy, it's chapter 23, he says, "There shall be an area for you, michutz lamachaneh, outside the camp, where you may relieve yourself. God moves about in your camp to protect you. Let your camp be holy." Rebecca Richman: And it's so important for Moses to convey this message to the Israelites. It's so important for him to convey this idea of having a space for bodily excretions outside the camp, because bio-waste is hazardous and toxic, and a major health hazard. Rebecca Richman: And so, right there, in the terms that are most accessible and relevant to the Israelites, we have Torah laying the foundation for us for environmental justice, environmental protection. It doesn't say that this area should be michutz lamachaneh for certain people. It's outside the whole camp. Nobody should have to live next to it. Nobody should have to be in close proximity to toxins. Rebecca Richman: And so, this deeply anti-discriminatory, environmental health law that gets put forward continues to speak to us today. And the Torah, I think it's so important that we ... obviously, as a Reconstructionist, for me, one of the ways that I read the Torah is reading it in its context and then figuring out how that translates into the moment that we are in today. Rebecca Richman: And bio-waste and biohazards are not the only toxin that we have to manage and keep outside of our camps. And we're doing a pretty bad job of that. And so, another place that I turn to as a Jew and as a learner and a holder of Torah is, "Okay. What do we do when we make mistakes?" Because we've made big mistakes. Rebecca Richman: And Torah is smart and brilliant and wise, and has everything that we need right there. And there's a piece of halakha, a piece of Jewish law that says ... This is from the Shulchan Arukh, that says, "One who does something at a distance and it causes damage to somebody else, it has disturbed the peace, the one who caused the damage is liable and they must pay." Rebecca Richman: And so, it's really clear that, you know what? We're going to make mistakes. We know that. We know that Jewish tradition acknowledges and makes way for us to make repair when we've done something wrong. And so, what do we do when we have created a situation when, for example, there are environmental hazards that are wreaking damage and havoc? Rebecca Richman: Guess what? The people who put them there are the people who are responsible. The people who created that situation are responsible and they must pay. And so Torah, for me, paints such a clear picture and offers such a clear message that, not only advocating for environmental health and environmental justice, which itself is non-discriminatory and is meant for all people, but also says that when that doesn't happen and when there is damage, we have to pay. Rebecca Richman: So, I'm talking about reparations here. So, I think that part of what Torah is calling us into, as always, is greater political awareness of the situation that we're in, and greater accountability to who we're in relationship with, who we may have harmed, and what we need to do, not just with our minds and our hearts, but sometimes also with our pocketbooks and with our resources, to actually remedy those damages. Bryan Schwartzman: I mean, generally, when you talk about the conversation around reparations and H.R. 40, the animating issue is slavery, although Ta-Nehisi Coates, in his famous Atlantic article, really goes into housing policy in Chicago prior to the Fair Housing Act. But I guess, are you talking about something different? Are you talking about this within the context of the movement to have reparations for slavery? How do you, I guess ... Rebecca Richman: Yeah, I think it's multiple and large, and there are advocates in the environmental justice world who are advocating strongly that the Green New Deal, for example, should include reparations, that our work in environmental justice has to acknowledge the legacy of slavery and the damaging legacy there, and that itself is also tied to adverse environmental health effects, and that's also something that we have to do something about. Bryan Schwartzman: From what I understand, for a long time, environmental activism and racial justice activism was happening on two totally separately tracks, and there wasn't a lot of interaction. Has that historically been a problem, and is that starting to change? Rebecca Richman: Yeah, it's a great question. I think it really depends on the place and on the community, but I think that at least the environmental movement, when it's labeled as such, has traditionally not been focused so much on race, even though environmental justice movements have, of course, been. Right? Rebecca Richman: Already in the '60s and '70s, we're seeing strikes specifically focused on environmental health for garbage workers in Memphis, Tennessee, Black garbage workers. So, we're already seeing the environmental justice movement integrating these things. But the environmental movement, I think on the whole, not necessarily so much. And I do think that we're starting to see that shift. I do think we're starting to see that shift, which is definitely heartening. Bryan Schwartzman: You've clearly been thinking about environmental issues and related issues for a long time. I guess I'm curious, if I can ask, has becoming a parent changed or enhanced how you think about these issues? Because it's obviously very much about the world that we're bequeathing to our children and our children's children. Rebecca Richman: Yeah, I really appreciate that question. Oy, yes. So much. First of all, I'm just so scared for the world that my kid is going to grow up in, a world where I can't imagine ... I just can't imagine what his life will be like 20 years from now, 50 years from now. I can't imagine what kinds of calamity will have become normative, where climate is going to push refugees within our own place. Rebecca Richman: And it really brings me back to this teaching in Kohelet Rabbah, this midrash, be-sha'ah shebara hakadosh Barukh hu bara et ha-adam harishon, "When the Holy One created the first human, the first human being, God took Adam and led Adam around all the trees of the Garden of Eden and said, 'Pay attention that you do not corrupt and destroy my world.'" She-im hitkalta, eyn mi sheyitaken akhereikha.. "Because if you do corrupt it, there's no one to repair it after you." Rebecca Richman: And I think about this teaching a lot as a parent, because it feels like, to me, if I don't take care of this place, then there is no life for my children. And if I don't teach my children to take care of this place, then there will be no capacity for them to have children, or life to continue. Rebecca Richman: So, I think about it a lot, and I think about it a lot also as a resident in a city that has lead poisoning as a rampant health issue. In Philadelphia, I think all kids get tested, their lead. Their blood levels get tested for lead in their blood. Rebecca Richman: And my kid, and at least two other friends who live in the neighborhood in west Philadelphia, our kids all have elevated lead levels in their blood. Not super dangerous levels, but it's there. And as we wrote to our landlords and had them come and scrape and repaint, I couldn't help but to think about the fact that I could ask for that, and the fact that ultimately, if it were bad enough, I could move. Rebecca Richman: I have the resources and the mobility, and the access to be able to get up and go if I need. And that's just not something that all of my neighbors have, and that I know that all of my neighbors with kids with lead in their blood have. Bryan Schwartzman: Yeah. Well, I did move out of the city, so that's something I think about a lot, for all the folks who didn't have that opportunity, didn't have those resources. Rebecca Richman: Yeah. Bryan Schwartzman: So, just another couple seconds of your time. If you'd like to make a statement and support these groundbreaking conversations with Evolve, the podcast, the website, our web conversations, or the curricula that Evolve is producing, you can engage in citizen philanthropy and support us with a financial gift. Bryan Schwartzman: Every single gift matters, both in the bottom line, and in terms of the statement it makes. There's a donation link in our show notes, and you can check it out. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you for your support. All right, now back to our regularly scheduling programming. Bryan Schwartzman: What would you like, or what would you hope that Jewish organizations, federations, synagogues, do they have a role to play in environmental justice? Would you like more to be done? What do you think the organized Jewish community should or could be doing? Rebecca Richman: Yeah, it's a great question and I think that this is something that a lot of Jews in progressive communities contend with, right? This question of, "What do we do?" And the tension between study and action. And of course, our ancestors have thought about this question for as long as we've been thinking. Rebecca Richman: So, in the Talmud, in Masekhet Kiddushin, there's a discussion recorded and a story told. So the story goes that there is an incident in which Rabbi Tarfon and elders were sitting in this house and they get asked this question. "Is study greater or is action greater?" Rebecca Richman: And Rabbi Tarfon answers and says, "Action. Action's better." And then Rabbi Akiba answers and said, "No, study is greater." And then everyone jumps in and presumably unanimously then agrees, study is greater. But not on its own. We can't just study. Study is greater because study leads to action. Rebecca Richman: So, I share that piece of Torah just to say that there's so much learning for us to do as a Jewish community. First of all, there's so much wisdom that Torah has to offer us for this moment, and for many moments that will come our way. And I think we need to keep learning Torah. Rebecca Richman: And we need to keep learning Torah in partnership with the social and environmental and political histories of the places that we're living in, and as the masses say in this house in the story in the Talmud, "We can't stop there." Right? We need to learn and build up and have that at our core, and then we need to be out in the streets. Then we need to be acting. Rebecca Richman: And so, our learning needs to lead to explicit and named and powerful anti-racism work, economic justice reform. We need to be voting. We need to be involved politically. And I think, specific to the environmental justice movement and to fighting environmental racism, I think it's important for each of us to know the history of the place that we're living in. Rebecca Richman: And finally, I just want to acknowledge and name that I think we have to be really careful as a Jewish community to not make it seem like this issue exists entirely outside of the Jewish community, right? There are many, many Jews in this country who are white and who haven't experienced environmental justice issues at their doorsteps. Rebecca Richman: And there are also many Jews in this country who are not white, who are Black and Brown, and who have themselves and have had their families experienced these issues firsthand. So, I think this work goes hand-in-hand with the anti-racism work that I hope our communities are involved in. Rebecca Richman: And just to say specifically that there are really exciting things on a national level. This relatively new organization, Dayenu, is working to really bring together Jewish communities across North America to contend with and advocate for climate justice, and righting the wrongs that have happened in this country. Rebecca Richman: And you can go to their website and sign on and advocate for Congress to support a just and green recovery, and get involved with them. So, I think that there's much that we can do and yeah, of course, as a rabbi, I want us to be doing that from a place of deep, deep Torah in our bones and our tissues. Bryan Schwartzman: I think I want to close with a big question that I hope I can articulate sufficiently. When we're talking about environmental racism and justice, we're talking about all these things. We're talking about history. We're talking about government and housing policy, urban planning. We might even be getting into how capitalism works. Bryan Schwartzman: I mean, it almost seems like, for things to be different or better, we'd need just a totally different world than the one we have, which we're not going to get tomorrow or maybe in 20 or 50 years. So, what's a productive way to think or talk about this, that doesn't just feel overwhelming or just makes you want to throw up your hands and say, "We need the Messiah to fix this," essentially? Rebecca Richman: Well, I don't think we have a choice. This is the world that we're living on. There's nowhere else for us to go. And in the way that I like to think about Mashiakh, the Messiah, it's like, "Yeah, I want to live in that alternative world where these issues are no more and where everybody has clean air to breathe and clear water to drink, and shade in the summer and happy lungs and clean blood. But we have to build our way up to getting there." Rebecca Richman: And I think about the learning and advocacy around this as building that possibility, as building a pathway to redemption. And I don't think that Mashiakh is going to come until we get ourselves together. So, it actually ... Yeah, it's exhausting, and I think we need to draw strength from each other, allow each other to take turns and step back when we're exhausted, but there's also something beautifully energizing about being in this work and knowing that if we get it right, then we're that much closer to redemption. Bryan Schwartzman: Well, I guess it's hard to say this is an enjoyable topic, but this was a really deep, profound, thoughtful conversation, and I really appreciate everything you brought to it, and everything you're teaching and thinking about. Rebecca Richman: Thank you so much for the opportunity. So grateful to get to be here with you. Bryan Schwartzman: Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Rabbi Rebecca Richman about her Evolve essay, Environmental Racism: A New Year, An Ancient Call for Breath. Disturbing, but also really thought-provoking and hopefully, beginning to point the way to a way forward. Bryan Schwartzman: Well, that's my point of view. What did you think of today's episode? I'd really like to hear from you. "Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations" is right in the title. "Conversations" means two-way, so at least send me your questions, comments, feedback. Hopefully, you're not throwing any internet tomatoes, but whatever you got, you can reach me at bschwartzman@reconstructingjudaism.org. That is actually my real email, so I'd be thrilled if you went ahead and flooded it. Maybe not thrilled, but I'd be happy. Bryan Schwartzman: We'll be back next month with a brand new episode. Evolve: Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations is executive produced by Rabbi Jacob Staub, and edited by Sam Wachs. Our theme song, Ilu Finu, is by Rabbi Miriam Margles. This show is a production of Reconstructing Judaism. I'm your host, Bryan Schwartzman, and we will all see you next time.