Bryan Schwartzman: Okay, this is Bryan Schwartzman, your host. In the years we've been doing this, we've never dedicated an episode to anyone before. Maybe it's something we should start doing. But I'm going to take the host prerogative and I'd like to dedicate this episode to my father, Robert Edward Schwartzman, who died on April 12th after a short illness. Actually, he went to the hospital that the same day we on the East Coast had, what for us, a pretty big seismic activity earthquake on the West Coast. It would be a small aftershock, and it literally opened up an earthquake in my world. My father was not, I repeat, not a listener of this program. I don't think he ever downloaded a podcast. And even if he had, I think the idea or the act of listening to me without being able to interrupt would've just simply been torture, I don't know if he could have done it. And as I said, when I delivered his eulogy, my dad, he wasn't a big ideas person. What mattered to him was, were there things that could put food on the table, family and the New York Yankees, maybe not necessarily in that order. And I'll just say, while he didn't articulate life lessons, he taught by example. And one of the things he tried to teach and I was very slow to learn and maybe still haven't, is this idea that if you've waited for someone to ask you for help, you've waited too long. Be observant, look around to see who needs help, who needs something done, and then help them do it. Go ahead and be proactive. So let's all try to heed that example. Now, my father wasn't what one would call religious. Synagogue, I think for him was an ideal place for napping. He cared about other Jews and had visited Israel twice. And here's where I wanted to tie into today's episode. In one of the last political conversations we had, I think it was a couple weeks before he passed, things are very jumbled in my mind at this point. He said, I'm paraphrasing, that he just did not approve of how the Israelis were conducting the war against Hamas and Gaza. Too much destructions, too many civilians gone. And I had to say, this surprised me a bit. I think I would've expected him to say something like, "We've got to go and get those terrorists wherever they are." And this chorus led to my mother starting to argue with him, but for some reason I didn't do what I would usually do and ask if he considered X or Y or trying to point out how he hadn't really thought it through. And I just listened and sat with that opinion. And I don't know, sometimes we don't know people as well as we think we do. And I did wonder if the Israelis had lost my dad, who else had they lost? And did my dad really have a point? And I don't think I'm coming to any grand conclusions with this story other than to say as Jews, as global citizens, we need to be talking about and wrestling with this and many other issues. Dad, I don't know if you were right or wrong, if anybody can be truly right or wrong when it comes to these war and peace, life and death questions, but I heard you, and especially when talking about Israel and Gaza, war and peace, I'll try to really hear as clearly and open heartedly as I can. So Dad, I love you and miss you, and maybe you'll somehow listen to this episode. From my home studio, welcome to Evolve, groundbreaking Jewish conversations. Speaker 4: (Singing). Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: The ground where a person can feel a sense of peoplehood with the Jewish people and with Israelis, and also express concern for Palestinian lives and criticism of the way Israel's conducting the war. That is a small slice of ground and our congregation holds that ground. Speaker 4: (Singing). Bryan Schwartzman: I'm your host, Bryan Schwartzman, and today I'm going to be speaking with Rabbi Katie Mizrahi, and we'll be discussing her essay, Zionist Rabbi For Ceasefire. This powerful essay, and it really is powerful and well-written, was published way back on March 21st and we spoke the week of May 17th. And so while many of the particulars and news developments change, I think some of the broader philosophical questions and even some of the practical questions that we get at really have remained persistent over the weeks and months of the war. And when I read this piece, I honestly thought, wow, I'd like to have a conversation with this author. We share some common assumptions, but it's definitely a different perspective than mine. And I'd love to be able to have a back and forth. And luckily, as part of my job, I get to do that. And I think this interview really did not disappoint. It delivered, and it gave us a lot to think about urgently. All right, in the booth right now with me is our editor, Sam Wachs. Sam, you were there for every piece of this interview. I feel like if we do a bit, it should be about the Pacers-Knicks playoff series or something. Sam Wachs: Yeah, I guess we can stick with Israel. Bryan Schwartzman: Yeah, I guess that's what the podcast is about. I don't know, what'd you make of this interview, sitting in on it? Sam Wachs: Well, first of all, it's really good to have you back in the studio. I'm glad that you're back hosting. Bryan Schwartzman: Thank you. You did a great job interviewing, by the way. Sam Wachs: Thank you. Was not comfortable, but tried to get through it. I was happy it was with Maurice. You do a good job doing these interviews. So Rabbi Katie, I thought it was a really, I don't know, at times emotional, very compelling conversation. I can't help but compare it to last month's conversation with Rabbi Nathan Kamesar. They have different views, I think, but I feel like their values aren't necessarily in conflict with each other. Bryan Schwartzman: We'll put a link to that episode in the show notes. They're definitely, I think, be useful and to listen to together. They compliment one another. And we've had a good run of shows on this difficult topic. We had Haviva Nair David, we had Jay Michelson, we had Amy Eilberg all offering some different takes on how to respond to the war, anti-Semitism and a lot of the questions we're all facing. Sam Wachs: So if you want to stay up to date on the latest essays, videos, and podcasts from Evolve, what you should do is sign up for the Evolve newsletter. We always have a link to it in our show notes, and you can also easily sign up on Evolve's website, which is Evolve.ReconstructingJudaism.org. Bryan Schwartzman: Okay, let's get to our guest. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi serves B'nai Havurah Denver Reconstructionist congregation, and previously served for Shalom in San Francisco. Rabbi Katie's approach to Judaism is musical, joyful, intellectual, and inclusive. Her spiritual practice includes drumming, singing, social justice, and Torah learning, gardening, yoga, and of course kindness. She lives with her family in Centennial, Colorado. And as we'll talk about, she's lived in Israel on several occasions, has been active in human rights work there, and she has deep experience with both and relationships with both Israelis and Palestinians. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi, welcome to the podcast. It's good to have you and thank you very much for being here. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Thank you. Bryan Schwartzman: First, how are you doing? Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: I'm doing all right. It's a beautiful stretch of sunny days in Colorado right now. So happy to be in springtime. Bryan Schwartzman: Yeah, it's a little overcast outside Philadelphia today as we're recording. We're just a little more than a week out from my older daughter's bat mitzvah, so we're hoping for good weather. I was really looking forward to this for lots of reasons. First off, congratulations on a really powerful piece. We'll link to it in the show notes, but it captures a lot and I'm not surprised it's generated a fair amount of response. I've almost selfishly used some of these conversations these last few months to work through some of this stuff I'm trying to work through because as much as I've studied and thought about some of these issues related to Diaspora Israel relations or any of that, just the last seven months or so have overflown my rational thinking, my emotions. I have a feeling I'm not alone. So just the chance to work through some of this stuff with somebody who writes as clearly and powerful as you and has your own experiences in Israel and evolving relationship. I'm really glad you're here to talk about this stuff. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Thank you. I appreciate it. Bryan Schwartzman: So I guess I'll start with your defining role. You're a congregational rabbi at Havurah, which is outside Denver and that's right. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: It's basically in Denver. Bryan Schwartzman: Basically in Denver, okay. And I guess I wanted to start by asking how has the congregation been impacted by or responded to October 7th and everything that's happened since? Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Well, it's been such a painful time. And we're a diverse congregation, so we have a spectrum of folks. We have people who have very deep ties to Israel, who have family there, who have been very personally impacted by October 7th, who've lost loved ones. My son's camp counselor was killed at the music festival. So it's- Bryan Schwartzman: Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't know that. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Yeah, and so there are people who have spent a good amount of years living in Israel, myself included, who really feel traumatized by the whole thing and have been in a state of fear and worry since then. And we're a community that is generally progressive and includes many people who've been fighting for Palestinian rights and a Palestinian state for decades. And so we have a range of people. We have people who would consider themselves liberal Zionists. We have people who are anti-Zionist. We have people who are just confused and maybe don't affiliate with Zionism, but don't consider themselves to be against it either. It's enough of a range that there are people who have been very, very troubled in their conversations with one another about October 7th and its aftermath. And so, one of the ways that we've responded as a community is to create skillful conversations and to create opportunities for very structured dialogue and reflection, helping ourselves to learn how to speak skillfully, how to listen well, how to tolerate people expressing views that we may not agree with. And even just that, I think has been helpful in healing. We had this one comment after one of our recent dialogue sessions that really, really made me feel like we were doing the right thing. A young woman who'd recently joined our community said for a long time she was feeling confused and conflicted and worried that this whole moment would tear the congregation apart just as it was tearing her own heart. And after moving through what we held were a sort of series of nonviolent communication workshops. After the last of those, she said, "Well, I'm still worried about the world, but I'm no longer worried that this is going to tear our community apart because we've found a way to continue to be connected and go here even across our very passionately held differences." Bryan Schwartzman: I'm going to show off my middle age a little bit, but when I first got involved or even aware of some of these issues in the 90s, the state of Israel was an established fact, and you could be critical of his policies less critical, but you didn't hear a lot of people talking in the 90s about being an anti-Zionist or a Zionist. And that has certainly become a marker in 2024. And especially to Jews, that Zionist, anti-Zionist, it really can be core to how people think about themselves. So in terms of having folks with conflicting views in the same community, I guess I'm wondering what values you draw upon that supersede that and allow folks to be together in community across what I think right now at least is a very painful difference of opinion? Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Well, one of the things that really came out in these workshops is that if you start peeling back the layers of the ideology, the more superficial levels of what people's opinions are about particular policies and so on, at the core of it, most people got to a sense of wanting the same things. We want peace, we want joy. We want safety for our people and all peoples. We want all children to live in safety. There are core values that we share that are true within my tiny community, which is itself a spectrum of opinions, but not that broad of a spectrum, but it actually extends way beyond that spectrum that I have to deal with. I think when we're talking about Democrats and Republicans and Zionists and anti-Zionists and all these different polarized groups, if you allow a person to really explore what they care about, most people, they care about love, they care about family, they care about justice. They may define all those things slightly differently, but really we all want the same things. Bryan Schwartzman: As the Rabbi, what do folks come looking to you for during this time? Is it emotional support? Is it ways to have these conversations? Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Yeah, there have been so many conversations with people who are just in so much pain, whether because they feel, I think particularly Jews on the political left are feeling a lot of dissonance. They are feeling isolated because the activist leftist circles that they may connect to have gone too far and have surfaced moments of anti-Semitic sentiment that are shocking and alienating and horrifying. And when Jews who are used to feeling safe in those environments, go there and feel unsafe and feel alienated, that's very challenging to their sense of self. And similarly, going to Jewish environments which are expressing sympathy with Israel in ways that erase the suffering of the Palestinians and erase the ways in which the state of Israel has contributed to the conflict, those spaces also don't feel right. And so the ground where a person can feel a sense of peoplehood with the Jewish people and with Israelis, and also express concern for Palestinian lives and criticism of the way Israel's conducting the war, that is a small slice of ground. And our congregation holds that ground. But a lot of the ways in which people have come to me have been people just wanting to have emotional support around unpacking all that stuff. Bryan Schwartzman: You write in your essay Zionist Rabbi for a Ceasefire, I believe is the title, yes. Of spending a fair amount of time in Israel, I think it was in the 90s. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about what brought you there and the work you did there. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Yeah. I lived in Israel for a stretch in 98, 99, 2000. And then I was back again in 2003 and have taken a couple of other stretches since then and before then. Six months here and there for sabbaticals and whatnot. When I was there for that first long stretch at the end of the 90s, I started there as a participant in a program that no longer exists. It was called Sherut La'am, it was basically a one-year program with Kibbutz Ulpan learning Hebrew, and then having internships with nonprofits. And so I had several months on Kibbutz Ramat Rachel, which is on the edge of Jerusalem. And then I stayed in Jerusalem and worked for two organizations. One was called the Israel Palestine Center for Research and Information known as IPCRI. They had a peace education project, and I worked for them two days a week in East Jerusalem. So I would take my bicycle and bicycle over to pass the old city. And then three days a week I was working for Rabbis for Human Rights. And my work with them was primarily about documenting human rights abuses, mostly in East Jerusalem, but also in some parts of the West Bank when Palestinian families were being targeted with a policy of demolishing their homes. And the cases that I was involved in or worked on were families that had documentation that they owned the land that their homes were on. It wasn't disputed that they were the landowners. They had papers from many of them from the British Mandate period or before then, but their homes were built on land that were zoned for not to be expanded by the British. And the Israeli government wanted to continue that policy of non-expansion because they did not want... Well, I won't presume what their reasons were, but what ended up happening in many, many cases is that a family would expand, so they would have more children or need to have in-laws come and aging parents be close by. They would want to build an extra room onto their tiny homes. These were generally people living in very modest conditions, if not abject poverty. And so they would want to expand, but then the authorities would not give them permission to renovate or expand their homes. And so sometimes they would do it anyway after giving up hope that they could do it legally. They would do it illegally and then the state would come in and destroy the entire home. So this happened as a policy in those good years of 98, 99, 2000. Bryan Schwartzman: So I was going to say I did a Kibbutz Ulpan in 1999. I can still remember [foreign language 00:24:25]. My Hebrew is not that good, but you remember things like that. I was in the far north in Kfar HaNassi which is about six kilometers east of Rosh Pina overlooking the Jordan River. And there's a much larger Arab village, Bedouin village right on the other side of the hill. And I experienced this as, or remember it as a "simpler time" than Ehud Barak beats Benjamin Netanyahu mostly on the promise of reviving the peace talks. He comes in with a strong position in the coalition and the newspapers we're writing, there's going to be peace with the Palestinians next year. There's maybe even a whiff of peace with Syria. And now we're really going to be able to, as a country, not at war, focus on becoming a state of its citizens, address economic inequality, address religious secular divide. All this stuff that's been put on the back burner is now going to be addressed. And I guess even then, I don't remember reading about home demolitions happening in the paper, but the simpler time was probably not as simple as I experienced it or remember it. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Well, it was a hopeful time. That was my experience, was even as I was there at that time working on human rights, documenting these terrible things, I witnessed a shooting as well at one of these house demolitions, a fatal shooting. And even with that backdrop, there was this almost Messianic hopefulness in the air. It was, we were on the eve of the change of the millennium. We all felt, well, who knows what we all felt? But I felt a sense that I was going to witness the creation of the Palestinian state and the beginning of a lasting piece for my people. And it has been so heartbreaking to see how these intervening years have taken us backwards on that road, have taken us farther from that possibility. And yet, I'll say, for me this moment right now, I know a lot of people are feeling so much despair and a lot of pundits are saying, "Oh, we're farther than ever from a peace. We're farther than ever from a Palestinian state." I actually think just the opposite. I think that this moment could be our turning point and our rock bottom. And I can see that short of this catastrophic human suffering in the last 25 years, whatever's been going on, has not motivated us to make peace. And perhaps this moment will, perhaps this moment is going to finally teach us that the security of the state of Israel depends upon a lasting and just peace, which to me means a viable Palestinian state so that people who would take up arms against Israel no longer have the fuel for that fire. Bryan Schwartzman: This might be a little macabre, but you just dropped that you witnessed a shooting and moved on. Are you able to say anything more about that? That seems like, well, a tragedy and loss of life, but I would imagine a pivotal event in your life as well. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Yes, I will try to talk about it. It's hard to talk about. In fact, our listeners won't see this, but I'm holding up for you a piece of paper on the video screen, which I just came across in my office as I was going through some papers. It's a piece of paper with words on it that are hardly legible that were written by a girl whose name I don't know, who was in the village of Iswea, which is a Palestinian village near Hebrew University in East Jerusalem. And I was there in 99 with my work for Rabbis for Human Rights. And there was a house demolition going on, and we had come to hoping to deescalate the situation, hoping if we were not able to stop anything, which seemed unlikely, at least perhaps we could document what was going on. I was there with Rabbi Jeremy Milgram, who was working for Rabbis for Human Rights at the time, and we decided to split up because I thought as a clearly not Palestinian person, I am a short blonde woman, I look like an American. We thought, okay, they're going to let me get closer. They're not going to feel threatened by me. So I went off on my own around one side of the village, and then all of a sudden things just sort of ignited. There were rocks being thrown and bullets being shot. And I found myself hiding behind some structure with a group of Palestinian girls and women and unable to communicate because they didn't speak English or Hebrew and I didn't speak Arabic other than just a few words here and there. And as we hid and ducked to make, because we were on the wrong side of the bullets, they were coming our way. So as that was happening, at a certain point in my memory, time slows down and I heard the most horrible sound I've ever heard, which was a cry from a woman who had just seen her husband shot in the head, and they took him away. I don't even remember how I got out of there, but while I was in this moment, these girls and I were trying to connect and they were writing on this piece of paper I just showed you, I love you, thank you very much. And I gave them my watch, they gave me some bracelet. And for a long time that memory for me was nothing but a black hole until a few years afterwards I realized that in that moment we were the light. And that my witnessing of that moment and being able to talk about it to my people and her witnessing me as a Jewish person, I was drawing pictures of a Jewish star, and I was pointing to myself and saying, "I am a Jewish person. I am with you." That possibility of us crossing the boundary and being with each other in each other's story, that is where the light comes from. And I haven't always been able to tell that story to my people. The year after I was in that Sherut La'am program, I was a student at an Orthodox Yeshiva. And at a certain point, we had a program where I was, I don't even remember what the topic was we were discussing, but I found myself trying to tell this story. And one of my teachers who later apologized just sort of shouted me down and said, "Oh, well, that house that was being destroyed belonged to a terrorist." He repeated all the narratives of ways that we dismiss and that the state of Israel has dismissed for years. Any criticisms, "Oh, that was a terrorist, that was a family of a terrorist," on and on. He couldn't hear it. He couldn't allow himself to believe the possibility that our people were doing something that was this wrong. Even though in the end, the government took some responsibility and said, "Oh, yeah, you're right. That man shouldn't have been shot. The rules of engagement were broken." But the authorities said, "Oh, that was not right. But the bullets that were used were rubber bullets. There's no way to trace which bullet came from which gun and which soldier. So we can't really hold anyone accountable." So there was never accountability. And anyhow, the point is that these kinds of painful stories and experiences challenge our narratives of always being right, always being moral. And again, that was in 99, that was in this time when we were certain that we were just around the corner from a lasting, secure piece. So when those same tropes come up now in the context of this war in Gaza, and I hear the defense of that war in the same terms, "Oh, well, these are all terrorists. We're the most moral army in the world." I know that because I know it. I know it because I want to believe it. I know it because I'm Jewish and I really, really want Israel and our military operations to be moral and so that must be what they are. When I hear that kind of defense of what's happening, it rings hollow to me because I had that experience more than 20 years ago and encountered the same resistance to hearing my experience at that time. And now it's so much worse. Bryan Schwartzman: You witnessed and saw you maybe the worst expression of Zionism or the state of Israel, and yet you've held close both the empathy and desire to alleviate Palestinian suffering without renouncing Zionism. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Well, I would say, what I witnessed was not an expression of Zionism. Bryan Schwartzman: Thank you. That's a important part. Right. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Yeah. I actually think that- Bryan Schwartzman: Even as I was saying it, I wasn't sure if I, you know. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Well, I think that is, that leap is part of what's happening with the discourse right now because people are equating the behavior of the Jewish state of Israel with Zionism and the idea of supporting Zionism as an idea with the idea of supporting a particular government or state or politician. And I think that's a mistake. We can quibble about what the meaning of Zionism is. And in some ways it's significant because, well, for one thing, I think when people are saying, I'm Zionist or I'm anti-Zionist, it's very unclear whether we are even using the words in the same way. But for me, I share in the dream that the Jewish people are connected to Jerusalem and the land of Israel. I find that to be a beautiful dream, a dream that permeates the prayers, the scriptures that I consider sacred. As a rabbinical student, I studied the medieval period and the ways in which Jewish communities continued to migrate to then Palestine whatever empire was in charge of it at the time. And the dream has never been a dream to just exist there living by the sword and hunkered in a bomb shelter. The dream of Yerushalayim, Yerushalom, city of peace is that we live in that sacred place and create a sacred and just society there, a society that is beloved by all peoples. And in the words of the Psalms sing about these visions of all peoples considering Jerusalem to be a holy place and coming on pilgrimage there. And so the vision of having the Jewish people in this land has always been a vision of Messianic idealism, of this is our dream to be in this place and to create a society that is living up to our best ideals. And so being a part of that is something that moves me. And seeing that there's a gap between Yerushalayim-Lamala and Yerushalayim-Lamata between the heavenly vision of Jerusalem and the earthly reality of Jerusalem, that gap is incredibly painful and heartbreaking. But I feel called to shrink that gap. And I think even if I wanted to walk away from it, I don't think I could because the world sees Jewish people as being connected to the state of Israel, like it or not. The state of Israel is writing Jewish history right now, and it might be more comfortable to just walk away and reject it and sort of feel very self-righteous about being able to move beyond an attachment to that place. But I don't think that that's the way that I can actually make things better. To me, it's a much more responsible and impactful path to hang in there out of love for my people and try to make things better, and to believe in the possibility that we can be better and that we should be better. And to see this moment as this historic, unbelievable historic moment that our people have been dreaming about for 2000 years and here we are, and to not engage in trying to make it better feels impossible. So as impossible as it also feels to be connected to, it's all impossible. Bryan Schwartzman: What do you do to keep the hostages in your hearts all these months later as so much else is happening and their stories maybe lost or pushed to the back burner? Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: I'll say, I'm sure I don't do enough to keep the hostages and their families at the forefront of my mind, partly because I do think that focusing there, it's like continuing to be in the trauma of October 7th, and it's just something painful, and I'm sure that I am guilty of avoiding touching that pain. And that being said, I think I recently was very surprised by and moved by a piece by Rabbi Jill Jacobs of Truah who was reporting that in Israel on the ground, those who are keeping the hostages at the forefront are also calling for an end to the war. And that whereas in the United States support of the war and support of the hostages are combined. In Israel on the ground, apparently those two things are seen to be intention with one another. And this idea that if we truly support the hostages and their families, we would make that the priority right now rather than the elimination of Hamas. And so in that sense, calling for a ceasefire, being willing to end the fighting is a way to support the hostages. Bryan Schwartzman: All right, so we are still in the period of counting the Omer, the 49 days between the end of Passover and the start of Shavuot. And Ritual Well, which is a platform we work very closely with. We're both under the umbrella of Reconstructing Judaism. So during this counting of the Omer, Ritual Well has organized seven free workshops every Monday. We're about halfway through it, but by the time this comes out, there should be three left and these feature dynamic facilitators that will help you tell your own story. We'll put a link in the show notes so you can learn about the sessions that are left. And if you like, you can certainly support Ritual Well's work and support us since Ritual Well and Evolve are both part of Reconstructing Judaism. Sam Wachs: And if you like what you experience in any of these free virtual workshops or if you just want to do something in person, consider coming to Philadelphia for a June 9th in-person Ritual Well immersion, you can join the Ritual Well community for a day packed with learning, connecting, exploring rituals, writing and art, all at the beautiful building and grounds of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College in Wincote, Pennsylvania, which is just outside of Philadelphia. Enjoy the company of familiar and new friends, delicious kosher vegetarian food, and choose from a variety of thought-provoking sessions. We'll have a link, a separate link in the show notes so you can learn more about this special in-person gathering and register. There's still time to register. Bryan Schwartzman: By the way, as of right now, this is on my calendar. I am planning to be there. Sam, did I hear a rumor you might be there or that's still up in the air? Sam Wachs: I am planning on being there in my capacity as the videographer and photographer. Bryan Schwartzman: So bonus reason for coming to meet your world-famous podcast host and editor. Sam Wachs: All right, now back to Bryan's conversation with Rabbi Katie Mizrahi. Bryan Schwartzman: From your essay, I get the sense that you did not oppose Israel's right to defend herself. In theory, you were, if not okay, you understand the need to go after terrorists or those who had planned atrocities and you didn't call for a ceasefire immediately. And I guess I'm wondering over a period of months, what got you there, to say, "You know what? I don't think this isn't making Israel safer. This certainly isn't making Palestinians safer." What got you to that point? Because I feel as much information as we're bombarded with on a daily, minute by minute, even basis, clarity for me feels hard to come by. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Well, I guess you asked me that as we were getting ready for this conversation and I've given it some thought and I have a few points about that. But the first one is to say, I could be wrong. I think that it's just we do the best we can to come to our conclusions, our opinions with whatever limited information we have and whatever our hearts tell us. And I could be wrong, it could be a terrible mistake to end the war at this point. It could be that Hamas is cancer and leaving two cells in the body are going to ask us for more, that could be. And there are several things that convinced me that it was time to speak out and say, this war needs to end. Of course, one of the main things is the horrible suffering that's come out of this war. The suffering of our people, the suffering of the Palestinian people, the photos of starving children, the photos of the destruction, the stories of the famine, all of that. So the suffering itself. And then also what it does to us and to our souls to be wreaking that havoc on other people. What does it do to our young soldiers to be in charge of a truck of men stripped naked? That is terrible for them and for us. And you mentioned this onslaught of information. I think there've been a few points where I think we should all question our sources of information and recognize that no media source is perfect, and you have to figure out who you trust. I trust the New York Times. I know that there are people on the left and the right who both think that the New York Times is biased, and that fact alone makes me feel a little more confident that they are reliable. But they have a long history of journalistic integrity that I respect. I've become a little bit inoculated against attacks on the media in the last 10 years, watching the right wing just dismiss anything they don't like that's coming out of the New York Times and other sources because they don't like what it says. It challenges the narrative that they have and therefore they just dismiss it and pretend it's not true. Well, I certainly don't want to start doing that just because I'm a Zionist and I find it painful that these journalists are revealing truths I would rather ignore. And I guess the other piece is, again, partly rooted in my own experience of years ago, I don't trust the current government in Israel. I see that Netanyahu and his allies have overseen horrible human rights abuses for decades. They have no incentive to end the war. They have every incentive for it to go on and on the minute it ends, Netanyahu is likely out of there. He is going to go to jail. So why would I trust this man to set a goal that the only way we can declare victory is to completely annihilate Hamas, which as we see now is not easy and not going to happen quickly. Why should I trust this person to define success? We have created so much suffering. We have done the job of deterring our enemies from messing with us. If the point is to scare future, possible attackers into thinking twice before they mess with Israel. That goal has long ago been accomplished. So the fact that this government was so unprepared for October 7th, responded so catastrophically in the weeks right after and still has no even just story or narrative of what comes after we win. I don't have faith in that group to define the terms of when enough is enough. Bryan Schwartzman: And Yoav Gallant, Netanyahu's not left-wing Minister of Defense has been openly critical of some aspects of how the war is being carried out, which I guess doesn't engender a lot of confidence either. I've been harping on this. It's human nature to want to discount facts and figures that trouble your worldview. So being aware of that, I have wondered why even sources like the New York Times don't seem more critical of the Hamas casualty figures. How do we know that X number is women and children? We've seen how long it's taken to identify October 7th. We're still sorting that out. Is that an important distinction? Is that not because we know there's tremendous amount death and suffering regardless of the figures? Is that a minor point or something more for you? Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Yeah, I do think it's likely that the Hamas controlled health ministry has not been producing reliable figures all the way along. I think that's very possible. But I don't think that these images of starving children are doctored. I don't think so. And I find the New York Times coverage... I'm no military expert. There could be deep flaws in what I'm taking in, that's for sure. But there's certain things that I do believe which are still being disputed in certain corners. I do believe that there's serious famine and hunger and starvation. Bryan Schwartzman: Of course. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: And I don't believe that adequate care has been given to protecting civilian life. Bryan Schwartzman: Which brings me to maybe your most powerful line in a very powerful piece because there's so much there. "I am not ready to become monstrous to defend my people from monsters," you wrote, which is really powerful and it brings up so much for me. At the one point I'm thinking that that calculus, and I'm sure you've thought that may look different depending on where you are on the map. Someone perhaps living in the Southern Israel or Northern Israel might be willing to inflict more, be a little bit more monstrous. And on the other hand, if Israel wants our support, it's reasonable to one, our value is reflected in how it's defending itself. So I guess I'm wondering what thoughts went into your mind in writing those really powerful words, which it's almost like it is almost like Torah and it's like one line, but you could say paragraphs and paragraphs about it. It's really powerful. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: To me. This moment is asking us to consider what does it mean to be a Jewish person and what should a Jewish state mean in the world? And it's not enough that the Jewish state could just mean the physical survival of people who have Jewish heritage or roots. The Jewish state has always, again, back to that Messianic dream, it has always been about something more than that. It's not just about some place for Jewish people to be safe. It is about a place that reflects the best of what it means to be Jewish. And that means not being monstrous. I've been thinking about these campus protests and about the ways that this moment is uncomfortable for me as a left-leaning person, because I've always been on the side of the protesters, whether it's the Civil Rights Movement or the anti-Vietnam movement, which all came before my time. And then the Black Lives Matter and Standing Rock and all of these righteous causes. The thing about calling for ourselves or others to be living up to our ideals. I think about the Civil Rights Movement and Martin Luther King. And what made them successful is that they were fearless, courageous, disciplined and loving. They were not willing to become monstrous to defend their people from monsters, and that's why they won. Because they stood for something that was better than just, we win, you lose. We survive, you don't. It wasn't just about identity politics, it was about ideals. And that's what's been lost in some of these campus protests right now, because if people are so full of rage that they're willing to villainize and hate the people on the other side, they have lost their way. People who are apologizing for cheering for Hamas, they have lost their way and they're standing for something that's not worth standing for. And it's possible to aspire to more. That's what the state of Israel should be. That's what America should be. And the fact that these states that are made of real people with real flaws haven't gotten there yet, doesn't mean that we should reject the whole thing. Oh, forget about democracy. Forget about State of Israel. No. Work harder. Work harder. Bryan Schwartzman: Wow. You brought up the campus protest. Some of these, for those of us living in the states, these protests maybe hit us closer to home than the actual events on the ground just because proximity and... Let's see. Go ahead. Go ahead. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: So one of the things I've been thinking about with the protests and just the context of where the United States is right now in the way that we talk to each other and the ways that we divide ourselves from one another. One of the questions I ask myself when I get angry, when I feel righteous anger, is about impact and effectiveness. And in my experience, it is almost never the case that yelling at someone and accusing them of terrible things will change their mind. And so when you have a righteous cause, if it's really a righteous cause and you really care and you really want things to change, you have to ask yourself, what is going to work? And even though I consider myself a progressive person and left leaning and so on, I felt for years and years felt so frustrated with the left from back in the day when I was working for Rabbis for Human Rights, that using inflammatory language like apartheid and genocide and so on and so forth, even if you're right, is that going to change things? Is it going to convince somebody to change their minds and change who they're supporting and what they're supporting? Most likely not, most likely not. And if you care that much about it, if you care about things changing, figure out how to change them. Don't just figure out how to be loud and right, figure out how to be effective in making things move and shift, which is never going to happen by alienating people. Bryan Schwartzman: We knew a time when Israel, however imperfectly, was taking steps and real risks for peace. And when there was clearly a gap between the ideal and the real, but there was an ideal of a state for all its citizens, and now we're living in a very different time, even before October 7th, the nation state law and Israel isn't even chasing that ideal anymore. So we kind of, how do you understand, interact with folks a little or quite a bit younger than us who only know Israel as X or Y? Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Well, I think one really important piece is for those who are in the generations where the state of Israel was created or before 1967, I think it's important for those who were raised with a Israel and Holocaust centered Jewish identity to imagine the experience of younger generations who grew up with a very different narrative about the state of Israel. And to see that for those folks who identify as non-Zionist or anti-Zionist, that those political views are born out of their life experience and what they have seen the state of Israel to be. And also, the distance from World War II and the Holocaust and the lack of experience of life-threatening existential anti-Semitism as an existential threat is what I mean. And the other thing is that, I think one of the things that I'm am a generation X person, so I feel I grew up in a time and when I was exposed to Holocaust and Israel centered Jewish identity, "Oh, we should be Jewish so that Hitler doesn't have a posthumous degree." Oh, being Jewish means being proud of the state of Israel. And isn't Israel right or wrong? One of the things that's been a great thing in the time since those early childhood years of mine when I was exposed to that thinking is that there's this Renaissance of amazing Jewish learning, Jewish culture, Jewish music, joyful Jewish practice that is about finding the things in Judaism that are compelling and meaningful and joyful that have nothing to do with the Holocaust or the state of Israel. And being able to form Jewish identity and Jewish life around Torah, around practice, around all of these things, new Jewish music, that is a privilege and it's a joy and it's to be celebrated. So allowing Jewish identity to be more expansive is a good thing. And remembering that the idea of Jewish identity being built around Zionism is relatively new. And certainly if you look back a hundred years ago, there was lively debate about the matter of the Jewish state. It wasn't an automatic part of everybody's Jewish identity. And so expecting that to stay statically the same is probably not healthy and is certainly not healthy to reject a whole population of young Jews based on their political policy opinions when they're the future. We have to listen to them. Bryan Schwartzman: We were reminiscing. And we're at a time where it seems like Jews with even a modicum of connection to Israel, even if they've been critical or worked for Rabbis For Human Rights, are being squeezed out of a lot of spaces, literary music, theater, campus. Do you think this is a temporary thing that'll pass? I guess you don't have a crystal ball, so how do you respond to that? Because it seems real. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: I'm much more worried about anti-Semitism on the right than on the left. Bryan Schwartzman: Sure. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: When Trump was elected in 2016, I realized that I had been carrying a naive assumption that human history would always move forward and never backward, and that my life would never intersect with a dark time like the times of World War II or other such dark times. And I realized at that moment that democracy is not eternal and that the safety of Jews in this liberal democracy was fragile. And so I do think that it could go very badly for Jews here and elsewhere, but the path to that possibility seems much more tied to the disillusion of democracy than to a bunch of young idealists marching around and getting carried away and so angry that they allow hateful speech and hateful ideas to fester in corners of their movement. I think that's not the scenario that really keeps me up at night. What really keeps me up at night is that the rule of law could fall, things like that, which seems unfortunately possible. Bryan Schwartzman: Yes. And it does make, not getting published in a literary journal seem like small potatoes, but it's not like far-fetched science fiction. What you're describing. In this crazy time of uncertainty, are there any Jewish text or teachings or practices that you're turning to as people are looking to you for spiritual strength? Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Well, I definitely am turning to the texts and teachings about Machloket L'shem Shamayim, this idea of disagreement for the sake of heaven. This long, deep Jewish tradition of recognizing the possibility that dialogue with those who think differently than ourselves can be a way to achieve a clearer truth and a more complete truth and a better practical policy than simply talking to people with whom we agree in a bubble of conformity of thought. So that is one important piece. And part of that is humility, is that recognizing that it might be that you aren't all the way and that somebody else might have a piece of wisdom you need to listen to. And the other piece that I've been thinking about a lot are the many teachings about rebuke. There are very deep teachings about both how to offer rebuke and how to receive rebuke. And I think that part of what's going on in too many conversations is that people are so hurt, they're so heartbroken that criticism is being perceived as threat and that rebuke is being offered in ways that can't be heard. And so digging into those sources that teach us, how do we offer rebuke in a way that can be heard and that can actually help somebody be better rather than just shaming others or offering rebuke in ways that are not going to be impactful. Bryan Schwartzman: So maybe possibly on a lighter note, we've got a big Jewish holiday coming up, Shavuot, how does your community mark it? Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Well, this year we're going to be collaborating with many local synagogues and having an all-night study extravaganza that's going to have many chapters of learning and embodied spiritual practice and on and on. Bryan Schwartzman: And this is not politics, not studying the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Or maybe that comes in a session or two? Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Right. We will leave the topics up to the teachers and we'll have a sermon off as a part of it where we're going to invite some of our local political leaders as well to participate. Yeah, it's going to be a meaningful, very full evening of revelation. And it feels good to be planning something with these other communities and for all the diversity that's within our own congregation, there's far more between our community and other communities in this moment and having opportunities to be together, to be learning together and celebrating Torah together, even though we all connect to it in different ways, that seems very important right now. Bryan Schwartzman: Any practical tips how maybe us adults with kids who start our days early, how do you stay up all night? Is it, you just got to do it? Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: For me, my kids are now at the age where I'm starting to be able to think again about doing things like staying up all night. But if I had that answer, I would give it to you, but I don't. Bryan Schwartzman: So I don't think we solved either the Middle East conflict or American Jewish identity, but this gave me a lot to think about and addressed some of the bigger questions I've been having, and I appreciate. I know you shared a painful memory and it was difficult, but I think our listeners will benefit from hearing it. Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Well, thank you for the invitation to talk, and I'm sure that I'll be thinking about this conversation and imagining all the things I wish I had said. But I'm glad that you're having these conversations, sharing them, and I appreciate the chance to share with you and with whoever's listening. Bryan Schwartzman: And we can check back in, and hopefully that'll be at a time when the war is over and hostages are free- Rabbi Katie Mizrahi: Yeah. Bryan Schwartzman: ... and we're looking forward. So thank you. And early [foreign language 01:15:57] . Sam Wachs: Have you been moved by this conversation? Have you found a new perspective on the Evolve website or maybe deepened your Jewish practice with a resource from RitualWell.org? Has your life been impacted by a reconstructionist rabbi or community? If the answer is yes, you should consider making a gift to Reconstructing Judaism. We bring you this podcast and so much more. We partner with people and communities to envision the Jewish communities that we all want to be a part of, and then we set out to build them. There is a donate link in our show notes, and you can also give at the Evolve homepage, which is Evolve@ReconstructingJudaism.org, and click on Support Us. Bryan Schwartzman: We'll be back next month with an all new episode. Evolve, Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations is executive produced by Rabbi Jacob Staub and edited by Sam Wachs. Our theme song is Ilu Finu is by Rabbi Miriam Margles. This show is a production of Reconstructing Judaism. I'm your host, Bryan Schwartzman, and I'll see you next time. Speaker 4: (Singing).