Bryan Schwartzman: From my home studio, welcome to Evolve, Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations. MUSIC: Elliot Glassenberg: There's a difference between knowledge and understanding, and I think there's a certain kind of knowledge and understanding that can be acquired from the other side of the ocean through books, through articles, through Zoom and long-distance conversations. But I think there's a different kind of understanding that comes from the experience of being here. MUSIC: Bryan Schwartzman: I'm your host, Bryan Schwartzman. Today, I'll be speaking with Rabbi Mira Wasserman in Pennsylvania and Elliot Glassenberg in Tel Aviv. We'll be talking about the first anniversary of October 7th. I can't believe it's here already, and in other ways, it feels like 10 years ago. That dark painful day that's so hard to memorialize as war continues and threatens to widen. And we'll be speaking about the work of BINA, the Jewish Movement for Social Change, which is based in Tel Aviv. It's an organization that works to advance democracy, pluralism, and justice in Israel and the Jewish world through [foreign language 00:01:32], which is study, [foreign language 00:01:34], action and [foreign language 00:01:36], community, emphasizing Jewish culture and values of [foreign language 00:01:41], which means repairing the world. We'll also be getting into the relationship between BINA and the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, which is part of the organization, Reconstructing Judaism, that produces this very show. And we'll be talking about the evolving relationship in there between Israeli Jews and American Jews. And by the way, we're dropping this episode just a week before a pretty big day on the Jewish calendar, Rosh Hashanah. So I want to wish everybody, all of our listeners, [foreign language 00:02:20]. May this next year certainly be sweeter than the one that's passed, and let's all work to build a better world together. So with us to help ground us and set our intention is Rabbi Jacob Staub, Director of the Evolve Project. My friend and executive producer, welcome, welcome to the show. I can't believe we're here a year later. I remember us talking on air in the days after October 7th. Rabbi Jacob Staub: Yeah. Well, thank you. It's always good to be with you, Bryan. Bryan Schwartzman: I was wondering if you could just start by telling us what's happening with Evolve in connection to this anniversary. I understand you have a series of essays in the works or that have already been published. Rabbi Jacob Staub: Sure. On the 30th, that is this coming Monday, we're going to be publishing a set of short essays from about half a dozen people talking about how their year has been, about what it has been for them personally and/or what it's been in Israel for them. And I did not specify exactly what the question was, but what we're getting is a real variety of responses to what it means for it to be a year later. Bryan Schwartzman: We'll look forward to reading those. Everybody can check it out at evolve.reconstructingjudaism.org, and as always, the essays are free. Jacob also wondering if you could help ground us for today. We're talking partially about rabbinic education and rabbinic education in Israel. Why? How is that? Does that make sense to discuss in the context of this anniversary? Rabbi Jacob Staub: Sure. Excellent question, an important topic. I remember since my history on the RRC faculty goes way back when we first developed the Israel requirement, students should live there for this extended period of time, we were under the, I think, correct impression at the time that all you needed to do was have somebody live in Israel and they would fall in love with Israel with all of its warts and then be connected in a way that would help them to connect the people they serve to Israel as well. That landscape has changed, because what's at issue now in at least the American Jewish community, is that today, we cannot assume. Today we cannot assume that living in Israel and buying food at the [foreign language 00:05:55] and riding the buses and listening to the Hebrew news is going to make people feel at home integrated, and understand the importance of Israel in the Jewish world and in the Jewish reality today. Today, things are very diverse in Israel and very diverse among American Jews. And we need to train, educate rabbis in the importance of all of the different aspects of Israeli society, not only those represented by the government, not only those represented by the classical story of the founding of the state of Israel in 1947, '48. And that's why this program with BINA is so important. BINA is helping us to acquaint future rabbis with the diverse aspects of Israeli society and culture politically, socially, religiously, so that they can then represent that diversity to the people they serve. And the anniversary of October 7th just highlights this critical need, because as we all know, a lot has happened to the relationship between younger American Jews and Israel in the last year. Bryan Schwartzman: You mentioned diversity. I mean, was there ever a moment where Israel society wasn't diverse, religiously, ethnically, politically? And same with the American Jewish landscape. I mean, is this diversity is somehow new? That's I guess what I got hung up on, on your response. Rabbi Jacob Staub: Well, that's absolutely right. And we were interested in acquainting students there with Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardi Jews and Mizrahi Jews and Tel Avivi Jews and Jews in the Kibbutzim. But there was general acceptance among Israelis and among American Jews that Israel was a critical spiritual, cultural, emotional center of Jewish life. And there wasn't a whole lot of discussion or concern about economic disparities, about the Palestinians in occupied post '67. And it was before all of the Israeli revisionist historians were questioning the traditional narrative of what happened in the 1930s and 1940s. So Reconstructionism and reconstructionist rabbis remain committed to the original centrality of Zionism Israel, that was the position of Mordecai Kaplan and reconstructionists through the 20th century. But the Israel to which we are committed is not one that we support unconditionally and uncritically. We are devoted to a particular version of Zionism that is progressive and democratic. And so we need our rabbis, our leaders, to walk the fine line between complete commitment to Israel and critical attitudes towards a how Israeli government and Israeli society is progressing. Bryan Schwartzman: Thanks so much for appearing on the podcast, Jacob. Rabbi Jacob Staub: Thank you for this podcast and the amazing work that you and Sam Wachs do every month. It's really a pleasure to watch and listen and learn from you. Bryan Schwartzman: Okay, let's bring on our guests. Rabbi Mira Wasserman is a PhD, is a returning guest to this podcast, and her office happens to be right down the hall from the office I share with Sam Wachs. Mira is currently Interim Vice President for Academic Affairs at the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College. She also teaches rabbinic literature, everything Talmud and is Director of the Center for Jewish Ethics. Her book, Jews, Gentiles and Other Animals: The Talmud After The Humanities was awarded the Baron Prize for the best first book in Jewish studies. Elliot Glassenberg is an American Canadian Israeli Queer Jewish educator activist whose work focuses on the intersection of Judaism and human rights. Elliot currently serves as a senior educator at BINA, the Jewish Movement for Social Change, where as part of his work, he oversees the RRC BINA Israel Summer Program. Elliot Glassenberg, live from Israel. Mira Wasserman in outside Philadelphia, welcome both to the podcast. It's great to have you both. Rabbi Mira Wasserman: Good to be here. Elliot Glassenberg: Thank you. It's good to be here. Bryan Schwartzman: Elliot, I'll start with you. We're talking a few weeks before the anniversary of October 7th, where we're in a state where it seems like anything could happen in the world, in the Middle East between the time we talk and the time people hear this. But I guess I just wanted to ask how you're doing, your community or fellow teachers are doing? No commentary, just how are you doing? Elliot Glassenberg: Yeah, it's a complicated question and the answer is often complicated here. My answer right now today is, I'm doing okay in my [foreign language 00:13:05]. In my little personal sphere, I'm doing okay. I'm physically safe. And how's my community doing? How are my colleagues doing? How are my friends doing? You kind of have to ask each one of them to find out, but I don't know. Every day is a new day, every moment's in new moment, but right now, I'm okay. Yeah, I'm glad to be here and very happy and feeling lucky. Bryan Schwartzman: Oh, thank you. Elliot Glassenberg: In relationship and in connection with you all over there. Bryan Schwartzman: Elliot, could you give us a sense, this is such, I'm sure, a difficult question to answer, just how October 7th, the war in Gaza, everything else, how that's impacted BINA over the past year? Elliot Glassenberg: Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it's an important question and it's a difficult one to approach and it depends. It depends, in which aspects are we talking about? Who exactly? First of all, BINA is an organization, but every organization is made up of individuals, and every individual is experiencing these events differently. There are members of the broader BINA community who've lost their lives on October 7th, alumni, family members of alumni and faculty and former faculty. So that's the most immediate impact is that, that personal loss. Many people in the broader BINA community that have been uprooted from their homes and are currently living in their homes. Other ways that it's directly affected individuals is many members of the BINA community, the BINA faculty have been called up for reserve duty on and off since October 7th. So that's affected our staff structure, as well as many staff members that have spouses or family members or friends of their spouses or family members or friends who've been called up for reserve duty, or family members have been and they're involved in different childcare family configurations because of this rupture in life. So that's kind of like an individual personal basis. On an organizational basis, I'll say first of all, I think it's important to note, as we say, "[foreign language 00:15:38], without flour, there can be no Torah," BINA's budget and fundraising has been negatively affected by these events. And I'll say, you know what? This should be the worst of our problems. First of all, we should all be healthy and safe, but fundraising priorities are different. Government funding for different programs have shifted, so that's something that we need to take in consideration. Also, this hovering question mark, so we have to be more careful in conservative with our budget, 'cause we just don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. But in a more spiritual content-based level, we've actually been seeing an incredibly increasing rise in demand and requests for activities from BINA, from different groups and populations that we hadn't really been engaged with before. I mean, since the beginning of the war, we were doing like Kabbalat Shabbat activities for evacuees from the Gaza border area and from the north. Kibbutzim who for years and maybe never had done a Kabbalat Shabbat as a Kibbutz, but suddenly they're in a hotel in Tel Aviv, and they're like, "We need to do something as a community. Shabbat is coming. What are we going to do?" Well, you don't want to just bring an Orthodox rabbi who would do an Orthodox Kabbalat Shabbat, 'cause we're not Orthodox and we would love to do our own thing, but we don't have the tool. So working with these communities to develop ritual learning, practice spiritual engagement that is meaningful for them. I mean, we've had people say that sometimes, having Kabbalat Shabbat weeks after October 7th was the first time they really allowed themselves to cry and process what had happened. Now, especially looking towards the one-year anniversary, we're doing work with a lot of different communities that are in the process of returning to their homes around the Gaza border, trying to shape what do the holidays look like? What is Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Simchat Torah? Do we call it Simchat Torah? Do we call it something else this year, October 7th? How do we mark these days meaningfully? And many of these communities might have had ceremonies that would be devoid of traditional or Jewish content, and they're feeling, "No, there's this need to connect to our Jewish roots or the resources that our Jewish bookshelf, that our Jewish tradition provides, as well as communities not immediately along the Gaza border in the north. We're talking about schools in Tel Aviv and Rishon LeZion, and communities that are reaching out to us. How can you give us spiritual resources from a secular cultural way to help our students, to help our teachers, to help our families talk about on these questions of Jewish identity, Israeli identity and values in this new different world that we're living in. Bryan Schwartzman: And you just very, I guess I don't know, maybe not so briefly, but you touched on something where there's the English date of October 7th. There's the fact that this happened on Simchat Torah, which will be a different date on the North American calendar. And the fact that it was Simchat Torah in Israel and Shemini Atzeret in the diaspora. So I don't know, Eli, can you give a sense, has it even been settled upon in Israel when this is going to be memorialized or I mean, is there- Elliot Glassenberg: Oh my goodness. Yeah, I mean, oh my goodness. No, I mean it has not been settled. There are discussions, there are debates on a national level, on local communal level, what is the date that we even mark? Well, last I heard, I think the official government-decided date of memorializing is supposed to be Simchat Torah, but I think some people are calling it Shemini Atzeret instead of Simchat Torah. Just a little bit of background, historically speaking, in Israel, it's the same day, Shemini Atzeret and Simchat Torah are the same day. Outside of Israel. Bryan Schwartzman: Right, thank you. Elliot Glassenberg: [inaudible 00:19:46] the extra holiday day that's added, Shemini Atzeret is the eighth day after Sukkot, and then Simchat Torah is the next day. But in Israel, it's the same day, so it's hard to separate those things. Some people are saying no, they want it to be on October 7th, not on a Simchat Torah, so they can separate those things. Listen, two Jews, three opinions even about things is ... Yeah, I mean, how do you mourn? But I will say ... What will I say? It's interesting, there's a bit of a challenge, a conundrum in Judaism that if we made every Jewish day of tragedy into its own memorial day, our calendar would be filled with memorial days. Yes, there is something different about October 7th, but there are also a lot of different things about other things that have happened through Jewish history. Moving forward in future, I think there're going to be different questions about, do we just mark this on Tisha B'Av, and combine October 7th with the many other tragedies that were combined on Tisha B'Av? Do we mark October 7th separately? Do we mark Simchat Torah separately? I mean, full disclosure, I have to say my Hebrew birthday is actually Shemini Atzeret, Simchat Torah. So this question is actually deeply personal for me, and I don't have the answer yet. Let's maybe, I think, take it one year at a time, and I think this year both days could be days of mourning in Israel, and talk to me a year from now and we'll see where we're at. Bryan Schwartzman: Mira, do you have any thoughts on how, as Jews, we might think about or memorialize or experience this first anniversary, I mean with so much that seems ongoing and uncertain in the present? Rabbi Mira Wasserman: Yeah, it feels really, really hard. I think what feels so hard is that a few months ago, we could imagine that we would get to October 7th or to Shemini Atzeret, Simchat Torah and the war would've been ended. We would be in a moment for remembering, but it feels like we're not. I mean, the event is still unfolding. So I think as Jews, we have sort of folded into us this yearly cycle that things come around every year, and we mark them on a yearly basis, but the contours of the trauma are still expanding. Which is just say, I think it's really, really hard. And the tradition gives us this concept that when private mourning and public celebration coincide that we always privilege public celebration. So if God forbid a relative dies right before a holiday, we stop the Shiva and we wouldn't have a funeral on a festival. But I feel like the scale of the losses with October 7th mean that there is no distinction between private mourning and public mourning. It touches everybody so deeply in different ways. This is in other word saying, I don't feel like we have the structures to hold the experience yet. But by the way, this isn't the first time this has happened to the Jews, that we haven't had the structures to hold the experience. What feels familiar about it is that we've experienced rupture as a people before, these moments where it seemed incomprehensible that we could have a future beyond this moment, and we keep having a future somehow. So yeah, I think we're still in it. Bryan Schwartzman: Don't experience the anniversary of October 7th totally alone. We're all alone too much in front of our computers. One way to process the day in community is with Ritualwell. It's sponsoring a day of memory holding each other, and that'll happen October 7th at noon Eastern Time. And our guest facilitators are beloved Ritualwell teachers who live in Israel, Rabbi Haviva Ner-David, who's a repeat guest on this podcast and Rabbi Daniel Raphael Silverstein. And they're each going to share about their experience and perspectives from the last year, and lead us in opportunities for creative expression and sometimes from the dark places, the way out is through creativity and getting those feelings out into the world somehow in positive ways. We'll share the registration link in the show notes, and we'll also share a link to all of Reconstructing Judaism's October 7th resources, including the series of essays that are published on Evolve, Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations. Now let's get back to our interview. So I guess before we go further, Elliot, can you explain to us BINA, first off, what does it mean? What is it? I have some familiarity. Our listeners may or may not. Elliot Glassenberg: Yeah, yeah, happy to. So BINA is the Jewish Movement for Social Change. It's an Israeli-based organization at the intersection of Jewish pluralism and social action and community building. And so the word BINA in Hebrew means wisdom or understanding, but it's also an acronym in Hebrew for a quote from a poem by Chaim Nachman Bialik, the national poet. I'll say it in Hebrew and then in English. The Hebrew is, "[foreign language 00:26:13]," which in English means workshop for the creation of the nation's soul. So we have lofty aspirations. BINA is actually, I mean I like to joke, we're world-famous in Israel, but we're relatively large organization in the field and we kind of straddle the world of Jewish pluralism and community organizing and activism. But we have lots of different programs that reach tens of thousands of people every year, ranging from programs that lean more into Jewish education, Jewish culture for students, for teachers, for young adults, for families, for communities, to volunteer programs, to international programs for Israelis and others around the world looking to explore their Jewish identity and express that through meaningful community connections or social action. Bryan Schwartzman: And there is a secular Yeshiva element, or I feel like that's what I've read the most about. Elliot Glassenberg: Yeah, I think that's one of our greatest brandings. So yeah, one of BINA's main projects is the secular Yeshiva, which is really a hub. It's built a physical hub, but also let's say a spiritual hub for Jewish learning and activism. I mean, beyond it being great branding, the idea behind it being a Yeshiva is not just a place of learning, but it's a place of development of Jewish thoughts and ideas, and trying to figure out, find answers to questions, to how do we live our lives in a changing world. To us secular, well, I think that's something that we're always working on redefining what that means. But for us, I mean, that secular Yeshiva is primarily for the 50 to 60% of Jewish-Israelis who secular is how they see themselves. So saying this is a place for you to come study and be a part of the Jewish conversation. And also for us, it means [foreign language 00:28:16] in the Israeli sense, it's like a window, it's open to new ideas, new interpretations, and connected to the realities, the changing realities of the world around us. So I teach at the secular Yeshiva in Tel Aviv, Israeli adults, young adults, international Jewish students, volunteers who are interested in exploring and taking ownership, taking the reins of their Judaism. Bryan Schwartzman: Right. It's been a while now. The last time I visited the Kibbutz where I spent time, which it's close to 20 years now, I met this long-haired, tattooed dude who was telling me about jazz and alt-rock, and he was studying Maimonides Guide for the Perplexed in his spare time. And that gave me some window that he wasn't alone, and there was this great desire to reconnect with some of this material or to connect with it. Elliot Glassenberg: Yes, absolutely. I think for years, at least on a surface level, there was this impression in Israel that things were kind of black and white. You're either religious, i.e. orthodox [foreign language 00:29:30] or you're secular [foreign language 00:29:33]. And it was kind of black and white, you're either/or, nothing in between. But whenever you used to dig under the surface, you realize that a lot of people who would call themselves [foreign language 00:29:44] really would have this desire or these practices or beliefs that are this deep connected to Judaism as a culture and Jewish ritual. I would say also on the other side of things, in the [foreign language 00:29:57] world, people who are ostensibly Orthodox also having a lot of room for new ideas and questions beyond perhaps what certain leaders of the community might represent. But anyway, I would say over the last 20, 30 years, what we've seen in Israel is what we called a [foreign language 00:30:13], the Jewish Renaissance, and these boundaries have been blurred. And one of the most defining aspects of the Jewish Renaissance is we see [foreign language 00:30:23] identified, secular identified Israelis being more publicly and actively engaged in Jewish explicitly Jewish activity. Whether that's learning, whether that's creativity, whether that's expression through arts and music, whether that's through marking the holidays in public ways, and doing it also on their own terms. That's something that's becoming less kind of whispers under the surface, but really, people are proud and glad and happy to talk about it. I mean, we have municipalities coming to BINA, saying, "We want to do a public event for this holiday. We want to do a public commemoration for October 7th. And we want it to be infused with Jewish ritual, but we want it to be done in a pluralistic Israeli way that isn't uniquely orthodox or doesn't represent any one specific approach to Judaism." Bryan Schwartzman: So Rabbi Mira, you are overseeing academics in all programs at the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, which is definitely not in Israel. It's in the East coast of the United States. What's the actual relationship between the two programs each of you are involved with? Rabbi Mira Wasserman: Yeah. So a number of years ago, when our faculty at RRC decided to redesign the way we do Israel education, and especially the way we do immersive Israel education, like how we structure the time that our students spend studying in Israel, we discovered BINA. And we're super excited about a place with shared values, in terms of where deep Jewish learning and a commitment to social justice come together, but in a distinctly Israeli way in BINA, as American as Reconstructionism is. And we always aspire to bring Reconstructionism beyond North America. It's a really American phenomenon. BINA is sort of this interesting counterpart, which is deeply Israeli. Our tagline at Reconstructing Judaism about is, what is it? Deeply rooted, boldly relevant. I think that- Bryan Schwartzman: That's it. That's it. Rabbi Mira Wasserman: That's it. That's the kind of Judaism that BINA is cultivating and creating for an Israeli Jewish public. So it seemed like there was this deep consonance in vision and this really interesting and constructive cultural difference, that were very much in these different national cultures. Anyway, BINA became our partner, and BINA is the host of the RRC students during their time in Israel. Our two institutions have co-created a curriculum. Elliot teaches the class that is the core of the RRC students Israel experience when they go during the summer. So it's a nice growing relationship. This summer, a bunch of us from the RRC faculty went on a study tour to Israel and Palestine. And really, the heart of our time was three days that we spent where Elliot was our host, and we got to spend time on BINA's campus, spent a lot of time with Elliot, met many of his colleagues, met some of the Israelis who participate in BINA's programs. And we also got a chance to sample the kind of learning experiences that BINA provides for RRC students. So I'd say the relationship is ever deepening, and we were able to bring back interesting ideas and things that we learned from Elliot and his colleagues there, about different ways to enliven Jewish text and Jewish living and bring it into conversation with the very urgent, contemporary moment, crises of our moment. So yeah, we continue to learn from each other, I think. Bryan Schwartzman: And can you each share a little more about what that learning experience is like for mostly American rabbinical students on the BINA Program? Rabbi Mira Wasserman: It's actually always so interesting to me to hear Elliot and his colleagues talk about their experience of our students. So I'm going to kick it to you, if that's okay. And I should say, RRC students are incredibly diverse. So some of the students we send to BINA have spent significant amounts of time in Israel, and come with relationships already in place, family, connections, friendships already having lived in Israel. Some of our students are coming to Israel for the first time, and what they know about Israel has all been mediated through a current event, sometimes through leftist activism. And this is a first time to really interact with Israelis, and experience Israeli culture in all of its richness and complexity and contradictions and stuff. So it's hard to talk about RRC students as if there's a typical RRC student, especially with regard to Israel, 'cause they come from lots of different places. So what do you think, Elliot? Elliot Glassenberg: Yeah. Yes, I agree. Well, I mean, I'm of course always happy to talk about the program and my experience with the RRC students, 'cause really it's been an incredibly powerful, meaningful, enjoyable and fulfilling experience so far. [foreign language 00:36:51], as we say. So I'll start with the goals of the program as I see it, are that what we're trying to do is we're trying to help RRC rabbinical students develop a more informed, meaningful, personal and professional relationship with Israel. The place, the people, the state, whatever that relationship is or however that's going to look like. We do not want to prescribe or dictate what that relationship is going to be. And of course, everybody's already coming in with an existing relationship with Israel. Some of that relationship might be based in personal lived experience in Israel. Some of it might be based on learning or relationships from a distance. But there's something that being here in this place, spending time learning from and with Israelis and Palestinians from diverse backgrounds. Being here physically, that creates a different kind of learning that's grounded in lived experience and direct unmediated personal interactions. So many people, like I said, might have a relationship with Israel, but they don't necessarily have relationship with Israel as rabbinical students, as rabbis, as Jewish leaders, as Jewish educators. Or maybe they haven't really thought about what it means. They maybe thought about the relationship with Israel in a personal sense, but what does it mean to be a rabbi and to be supporting others or educating others in their journey with their relationships, with regard to Israel? How do I talk about Israel? How do I answer questions about Israel? How do I engage with Israel or not, as a rabbi, as a member of the clergy? And I think the purpose of our program is to help round the relationships and deepen and enrich it with direct personal experience in Israel and Palestine. So that's generally speaking, the goals of the vision for the program, what does it actually look like on the ground for the students. So it's about two months in Israel over the summer. And like Mira said, the core course is contemporary Israel civilization, getting to understand this thing called Israel, the civilization of Israel, the people and all of its beauty, complexity and challenges, the state and all of that. As well as loss of time built in for personal exploration, experiencing discovery of Israel, both from a Jewish perspective. About half of the Jewish people of the world currently live in this place called Israel. What does that mean? What does that Judaism look like? How can that Judaism inform my Judaism? How can it inform my rabbinism? As well as just exploring political issues, personal issues, cultural issues in Israel. As well as we have different also elective courses, whether it's modern Hebrew learning or exploring ethics, ethical questions in Israel-Palestine. I could go on and on. I will say a core part of the experience is meeting with different people here on the ground, Jewish Israelis, non-Jewish Israelis, Palestinian citizens of Israel and non-citizens of Israel, and developing meaningful relationships with people here who themselves have their own different and complicated relationship with this place and are engaged in different ways. And I would say reconstructing the Jewish civilization project that's happening here, or the Israeli Civilization Project, which includes both Jews and non-Jews on this side of the ocean. Rabbi Mira Wasserman: Yeah, I'm going to say that I think the relational piece, the opportunities to meet a lot of people and have conversations with them is deeply impactful on the students, and also ripples through the RRC community generally. So in the early days after October 7th, at one of our early community gatherings, we had the students who had been on the program the summer before. It was already previously planned, that after the [foreign language 00:41:24], after the holidays, the students would share some of their experiences and the lessons that they were bringing back. But because this horrifying thing had happened in between, it became a chance for those students to reflect on what they've learned and experienced through the BINA Program changed their experience of October 7th and the ensuing war. What they talked about is being able to picture the people that they met, and focus on what does this mean for the Israeli family that I spent time with in Tel Aviv? What does this mean for the Palestinian man living in the West Bank that I met? What does it mean for the activists that were so inspiring to me that we saw protest? So there was just sort of a depth of engagement that served, I think, as a foundation for empathy with all the myriad ways that the upheaval of October 7th and the war hurt so many people. Outside of a political analysis, there was a deep human connection to all sides, because of the kind of experiences that the students had had. Bryan Schwartzman: Maybe jumping off from there, I'm curious, we've got, Mira as you said, rabbinical students with very different relationships, opinions on Israel, even going back pre October 7th. We've got the communities that they're going to serve also have some of those opinions and the relationship between American Jews, Israeli Jews, increasingly complex. I guess what is the goal of the program at this point? And what do we hope religious leaders come away with? I mean, clearly we're not trying to just inculcate a blind love of Israel. There's something deeper and more complex at play, and I think it says something about this relationship between American Jews and Israeli Jews, but help me understand that. Rabbi Mira Wasserman: So I hope I don't get too wonky. Actually, the faculty worked really hard on identifying what the precise learning outcomes. We went from Israel education here to be. Let me back up. And I want to say first, that the BINA Program is not the only way our students learn about Israel. Because our curriculum is so focused on studying Jewish civilization throughout the ages, the evolving story of the Jewish people, the land of Israel is a huge piece of where that story unfolds. And then, in diaspora communities too, a relationship to Israel is a huge part of how that story unfolds. So before they get to the BINA Program, they've already been deeply embedded in this story of the Jewish people and the place of Zion and Israel in that story. And then they learn about the emergence of Zionism in the modern period, and they learn some. But you can't tell the story of modern Jewish experience without also telling the story of Israel. So what the BINA Program is this deep dive, which is immersive and relational and experiential, and really rounds out the learning. So the learning outcomes are one, demonstrate familiarity with Israel's place in the history of Jewish civilizations, and knowledge of the complexities of Israel and Israeli society. So that's the first thing, and that's pretty academic and consistent with the rest of their curriculum, and its emphasis on history and sociology of the Jews. And then, there's a practical rabbinic school, which is learning about practical resources based in Israel for use in the reconstructionist rabbinate. So if you're going to be a leader in the North American scene, you need to know who are your go-to organizations or leaders in Israel, in Palestine, if you want to make a program for people to learn more about politics, about Israeli culture, about what's happening now. So that's the second one. Then there's the sort of spiritual goal to be able to develop a personal vision of where Israel fits into a one spiritual and theological understanding. And finally, another practical rabbinic school is the ability to lead difficult and emotionally charged discussions about Israel and Palestine. And one way they do that I think, is by experiencing how Elliot and the other presenters do it. So one of the real strengths of the program is that the teachers are very transparent about the choices they make about how to tell the stories of Israel, the stories of Palestine, the stories of Israelis. Elliott manages a classroom with a lot of diversity of ideological commitments with regard to Israel. So they see modeling, they talk about the pedagogical choices, and they also engage themselves in these conversations about Israel, which is practice, we think, for this skill of being able to lead discussions, to lead communities that are going to be divided about Israeli politics in their evidence. Elliot Glassenberg: There's another thing that I would like to say about goals of the program. Mira talked about the affective versus the academic aspect. And I want to talk for a moment about the goal of [foreign language 00:48:32], love of Israel. Now sometimes when people first hear that phrase, we're thinking about like what you said, Bryan, automatic pilot, love of the State of Israel, support of unconditional, uncritical love of the State of Israel. That's not what I'm talking about. We've had many conversations with the students. First of all, what do we mean by Israel? Are we talking about the people of Israel? Up until 1948, when people talked about Israel, for the most part, they were talking about the people of Israel. Are we talking about the land of Israel? Are we talking about the State of Israel? And what do we mean by [foreign language 00:49:07], by love? And we talked about this a lot, and something that I like to talk about is how the commandment to love your fellow, which is usually understood as the met commandment to love your fellow too, but that's a whole other discussion, comes immediately after the commandment to rebuke your fellow, if you believe they are perhaps engaged in sin. So I think the kind of love we're talking about isn't this blind love. It's a love of concern. It's a constructive love. It's a kind of familial love. Because I love the people of Israel, I want what's best for my fellow Jews. I want what's best for the Jewish future. I need to be engaged in meaningful, honest, constructive conversations with the members of the Jewish family wherever they are. And what does that look like for what might that look like moving forward? And I'll also say it's perfectly possible that someone might say, "I've been, I came, I saw, I engaged in meaningful conversations. I don't see Israel or conversation with Israel as a significant part of my Judaism and my rabbinate." And that's a choice that a person can make, but it's hard to not be in some kind of ... Even choosing not to be in conversation is still a form of relationship. So I'm just going to put that out there. Rabbi Mira Wasserman: Yeah, I want to throw in that because people-hood is just so important to the reconstructionist understanding of what it means to be a Jew, as you said, with half the Jewish people in Israel, I think that that possibility is hard. Yeah, it's just hard to imagine. So engagement, critical engagement, angry engagement, loving engagement. And I don't think any of these are mutually exclusive, but we are looking for engagement and for informed engagement. Like it or not, I think rabbis are looked to as sources of knowledge and understanding. And so we want all of the students to come out of all of the offerings with really secure understanding of the history, of the politics, and that Israel is more than politics. That there's a rich, vital culture, cultures that they could know about and speak about and introduce other people too. Elliot Glassenberg: I'll also say one more thing. Oh yeah, Mira, go ahead. Rabbi Mira Wasserman: I just want to say, one thing that I so appreciate about BINA is the way it takes seriously that this Jewish project is continually evolving. So one of the things we were able to experience this summer and that our students experienced is studying the Israeli Declaration of Independence as a Jewish text, just like the Talmud as a Jewish text. The tradition of Jewish writing of Jewish thinking of Jewish teaching continues in creativity that's happening today. So the Declaration of Independence, like the Contemporary Israeli Songbook, poetry, art, this is all part of Jewish culture, Jewish life that continues to evolve. And so our students should be learning about it. Elliot Glassenberg: I feel like in so many ways, BINA and RRC, Reconstructing Judaism are speaking the same language, except you're speaking in English and in North American, and we're speaking in Hebrew and Israeli, in many ways, in many ways. I wanted to say one thing about what you were saying about the goal of understanding, that we want our rabbinical students to have deeper understanding of Israeli society, civilization, people, politics. And there's a difference between knowledge and understanding. I think there's a certain kind of knowledge and understanding that can be acquired from the other side of the ocean through books, through articles, through Zoom and long-distance conversations. But I think there's a different kind of understanding that comes from the experience of being here, of visiting the Town of Yeruchal and meeting the Mizrahi Israeli Jews who are settled there and their descendants, and seeing their lived experience and understanding why they feel the way they do, why they think the way they think, why they approach Judaism, why they approach Israel the way they do. And those are unique kinds of understandings that I think are critical for leadership and continued engagement from anywhere in the world. Bryan Schwartzman: Mira, I'm going to ask you, but I think this would apply to both of you. But I know, Mira, you and I have spoken before. You've talked to me about your love of Talmud, maybe not every last sentiment in the Talmud, but the structure. And you've talked to me about a love of argumentation and debate. Does our tradition give us any guide how to have arguments that are ... I know there's the concept of Arguments for the Sake of Heaven in wartime that just we thought we'd be done and be able to move on, but the wounds just feel rawer and rawer as opposed to healing. Rabbi Mira Wasserman: Yeah. It's interesting, 'cause that theme of Arguments for the Sake of Heaven is sort of the theme for community learning at RRC this year. What we are trying to do is ground ourselves, build skills, build capacity for talking about really hard things, like some people here are staunch advocates for the State of Israel, for Zionism. Some are harsh critics of the State of Israel. I think everybody that I know at RRC is critical of the current government and government policies, but there's a real divide on Zionism and on the place of the State of Israel. So we're working on that here. But I have to say, my recent visit to Israel and ongoing conversations with Israelis have suggested to me that there's another kind of discourse that we need to be mindful of right now. And that's another teaching, which is how you make a Shiva visit. When you go to a house of mourning, as a visitor, you offer your presence, you're not supposed to ... If I'm visiting a Shiva house, a house of mourning, it's not for me to start a conversation. It's for me to sit quietly and let the mourner decide to engage in conversation or not. So I think we have a great tradition of talking. We're great talkers, the Jews, but we also have a great tradition of quiet and of listening, and of just sometimes offering presence when there are no words. So it's that tradition of quiet presence that I think we need alongside the tradition of argumentation right now. And by the way, thinking about Israel, we also have traditions of screaming and protest. And I'm so inspired by the protests that are happening in Israel every week, and sometimes more than once a week. So there needs to be a time for screaming, a time for respectful arguing, and a time for just quietly being together with love and respect. Elliot Glassenberg: It sounds like [foreign language 00:57:27], but I was going to say building off of that ... No, I mean, I think these questions of, specifically the conversations happening between Jews in Israel and Jews outside of Israel, I really like that language you used Mira, how do we engage in meaningful conversations and know when to engage in meaningful conversations and know when to engage in protest and argument, and know when we just need to sit with compassion with one another. And I think right now, especially, I think both Jews in Israel and Jews outside of Israel are still in the midst of pain, trauma, challenges, suffering in very different ways that I'm not trying to compare. It's so interesting in so many conversations that I've had or seen, so often people when I talk to Jews outside of Israel, they're like, "Oh my gosh, how are you doing?" And I ask them, "Well, how are you doing?" "Well, no, no, I don't want to burden you with what's happening with me, because you're there in Israel and what's happening there is so hard." And I say, "Listen, I'm in Tel Aviv. I'm physically safe. How are you doing with struggling with the relationships with your colleagues and your peers around conversations with Israel?" And these are different challenges that we're dealing with. I think, yes, on one hand we need to be really patient and compassionate to one another, but I think we really need to be more and more sharing with one another, I think. And we have a lot to gain from working with one another and exploring these issues, and finding our way through the different challenges that we're experiencing in both sides of the ocean. Bryan Schwartzman: We could keep going. I think that's as good a place to stop as any. Rabbi Mira Wasserman, Elliot Glassenberg, thank you so much for the conversation. Elliot, you and your loved ones and friends, stay safe. Elliot Glassenberg: Thank you. Rabbi Mira Wasserman: Great to see you, Elliot, Elliot Glassenberg: Great to see you Rabbi Mira Wasserman: Thank you so much. Yeah, loved being in conversation. Elliot Glassenberg: Likewise. Sam Wachs: Hi folks. Sam Wachs here. I edit the show. Thanks so much for listening to Bryan's great conversation with Mira and Elliot, and thanks again to Jacob for jumping on in the intro. I just wanted to pop in here and let you know about a few exciting things for the podcast coming in the month of October. We actually have two episodes coming for you. And so I just wanted you to mark your calendars, get ready for an episode October 16th, and then another one at the end of the month, October 31st. I don't want to give away who the guests are, but we're really excited. It's going to be great, and we're excited to bring you this extra episode this month. So thanks again for listening. Remember to give us a five-star rating, leave a review in Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. And just wishing all of you [foreign language 01:00:47], happy New Year and we will see you in a couple of weeks. Bryan Schwartzman: Evolve, Groundbreaking Jewish Conversations is executive produced by Rabbi Jacob Staub, and edited by Sam Wachs. Our theme song Ilu Finu is by Rabbi Miriam Margles. This show is a production of Reconstructing Judaism. I'm your host, Bryan Schwartzman, and I'll see you next time. [foreign language 01:01:11]. MUSIC: [foreign language 01:01:13].