Evan Facinger: Welcome, everybody, to another Foremost Media Marketing Chat podcast. My name is Evan Facinger, and with me, as usual, is the CEO of Foremost Media, Jon Ballard.
Jon Ballard: Good afternoon, Evan.
Evan Facinger: How are you?
Jon Ballard: I'm great. We have another interesting topic today.
Evan Facinger: Yeah, today we're going to be talking about AI. I think that is a topic that anyone paying attention is probably interested in, and we do have a special guest with us today, Christian Martin Romero, who is the Marketing Manager here at Foremost Media.
Christian Martin Romero: Hey, Evan. Thanks for having me on.
Evan Facinger: Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you. I know we chat quite a bit about this and marketing in general, but I know you have a lot of experience, especially with talking to customers about AI. I think you can add a lot of value here. So, why don't we take a step back and talk about how you got here? I think 2024 is technically the year of AI; you're seeing it everywhere. But, Jon, you brought up something interesting from 2015 with RankBrain and how Google was using machine learning and artificial intelligence back then. That's something you wanted to start with.
Jon Ballard: Yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of people think this AI stuff is new, but Google's been doing it for quite a while. It's just that they’re starting to make it more visible in search. Like you said, it started with RankBrain, which is an AI-based component of Google's search algorithm. It would look at long-tail search terms and how people reacted to them. Then, it would use that data to learn if they returned the right kind of results. If there were difficult search terms that Google didn’t know how to handle, they’d return some results and then study how people interacted with them. They used that feedback to improve their algorithm for similar searches. So, that was Google's initial input into AI and improving their search. It’s interesting to see how far we've come since 2015. Then, they got into natural language processing, which involves understanding how people talk and improving search engines to deliver better results. Since then, they’ve also used machine learning to improve those results by analyzing user interactions, such as click-through rates and how deep users go into a site. They’re using that machine learning to determine which sites are good and why people are interacting with them, then finding other good sites out there. So, this is nothing new for Google. I think what we’re talking about today, if I have to define it, is what we might call an AI overview for Google search results.
Evan Facinger: The AI overview for the Google search results.
Jon Ballard: I think what kind of kicked off this podcast was that we get calls and questions all the time now, like, "Hey, I’m seeing these AI summaries at the top of the search results. Is that going to affect my rankings in the future? How do I become an authority? What does this all mean for search and my search engine rankings?" So, what do you guys think? What does it mean for search engine rankings? Are you finding the AI summaries useful?


Evan Facinger: Personally, it's a classic "It depends," right? The reason it depends is because it really hinges on how well the AI overview provides information and how trustworthy it is. I know the 2015 RankBrain and the machine learning aspect of that impacted the algorithm, but when we start talking about AI versus machine learning, it's not the same—similar, but different. We're starting to see an exponential increase in the intelligence of AI, and I think we see that a lot with the overview. When they first started producing it, there were all the jokes, like, "Look at what it told me to do last—if I could eat rocks," and some of it was hilarious, but maybe horrifying too if you think about people relying on it for such results. By and large, it’s still very useful, providing factual information. It’s only going to get better, especially if you consider that AI right now is the worst it’s ever going to be. I find myself, many times, when I have a quick question, just using the AI overview because it gives me the answer I need without diving any deeper. It’s a lot like the weather—you used to have to go to weather.com or another weather site, but now you just type it into Google, get the answer, and move on. There’s no need to visit the website. So, it’s leading to a lot more zero-click experiences on the search engine results pages. I’m curious, Christian, what do you think? Are you finding it useful, or are you somewhere in between?
Christian Martin Romero: I actually look at it to see how well customers are represented in those AI searches for terms relevant to their business. I find that the AI-generated search is kind of like a beefed-up featured snippet. The featured snippet was never really that broadly used, not as much as the AI-generated search result is now. I find that clients who are represented in the AI results tend to have higher visibility. Over the past year, with the updates Google has made in 2024, we’re seeing more and more of those top organic listings being used to create AI-generated search results. Remember back in 2023, it was maybe 50%—somewhere in the mid-50s—that the top 10 organic results were ending up in the AI-generated search results. SEO Clarity just came out yesterday with a test over 36,000 keywords, and 99% of the generated search results are using Google’s top 10 organic results. So, they’re really developing these side by side and working together. But like you said, they’re providing the information, leading to zero clicks. I think I read that the running status on zero-click searches is already about 50%, with half of Google searches resulting in zero clicks, and with AI, that number will go up.
Christian Martin Romero: You’ll see fewer sessions hitting your website because people don’t need to go there for more information. So, with marketing and SEO, what does that mean for determining success? Is that good or bad for businesses? How do you measure that? That’s the big question I’m hearing.
Jon Ballard: What’s interesting to me, too, is that AI has to trust somebody. I think there are still factors in place regarding where they pull those search results from for the generative search result. I believe they still use quality signals from the sites that Google crawls. They’re not going to return AI-generated results from questionable sites—it would be suicide for them to do so in terms of providing incorrect information. So, I think there’s an opportunity for companies to show up in those generative searches by doing the right things regarding quality signals. What are your thoughts on that?
Evan Facinger: Yeah, interesting because you're right—you've got to make sure the sources you're getting information from are trustworthy. That's where the exciting part, or maybe the scary part for some, comes in with AI. It's actually intelligent; it's able to understand and do more. It's not just machine learning, right? That’s where the fundamental difference lies. I think part of the reason there were so many of those joke things being shared around about the AI overview was that it was grabbing random Reddit comments and just putting them in there, rather than providing the correct answer from an authority. You’re seeing less of that now, but that was a big part of it. As everything starts to grow and the systems become more intelligent, it’ll be interesting to see how they’re getting the information and how that information is being created. Especially when you start looking at theories like the “dead internet theory.” Are you both familiar with that?
Jon Ballard: I’ve heard of it.
Evan Facinger: Yeah, so it’s an interesting theory, right? It’s a conspiracy theory that suggests the internet is no longer driven by human interactions but by bots, automated scripts, and AI. It argues that everything you see online might not have any human behind it. That’s where you start finding some of those theories or scary moments. I don’t think the internet has fully turned into that, but if everyone starts using AI content to create content for AI searches, and all the information is just being repurposed over and over, how useful is the internet going to be? How do we make it more useful if it becomes challenging to find relevant content and information that isn’t just recycled?
Jon Ballard: I guess my question for you guys is: What can an SEO or a business do right now to capitalize on search and AI? What are we seeing out there, and what are we recommending to customers?
Evan Facinger: In terms of showing up, or...?
Jon Ballard: How to take advantage of it—content generation, how to show up in those generative searches, those types of things. Any other opportunities with these changes? Usually, with change comes opportunity if you’re looking for it.
Evan Facinger: Yeah, and I think there’s a lot of opportunity on both sides. Marketers can use AI, but AI is also going to change the behavior of people as they search, just like Google changed the behavior of internet users when it became the go-to search engine. There’s still a lot to be seen with it. I do think we’re going to see a shift in the focus on informational content when it comes to SEO. Christian, I think you have an alternative viewpoint on a lot of these things, so I’d love to hear from you after I finish rambling. Much of SEO was focused on creating content that answers questions best, and websites would put that information out there because that’s what gets indexed, that’s what people expect, and that’s where they would get the information. Content strategy was really about answering questions, and we’re already starting to see some of this shift now, but it’s only going to grow as things evolve. Informational queries will be answered directly on Google. So, what’s the benefit to the business then, if they provided the answer, spent the time, created the content, and established authority, but Google gives the answer directly? You might get credit, visibility, or whatever metrics can be tracked, but if users never visit your website, do they even know they got the answer from you? Is there still a benefit in doing that? That’s where I think some of the big questions start to arise.
Christian Martin Romero: I love that distinction between our philosophies because it doesn't bother me all that much, and maybe I'm a bit optimistic on this. What you just said about informational searches finding the information they're looking for on Google—not only can they get the generative result, but they can continue digging deeper into that result on Google, pulling more and more information. I think Google has done a great job of citing the companies, brands, and websites, so people still feel confident knowing where the information is coming from. Overall, that helps a company’s online visibility. They’re still being seen and getting that credit. Now, it will increase the zero-click phenomenon where people don't need to go to the website to get that information. However, they still need to go to the website to convert. So if all they are doing is searching for information, there's a possibility that those were going to be non-converting searches anyway. What I would expect is that sessions may go down, but the conversion rate on websites should start to increase, and hopefully, qualified leads and quality conversions will increase as well because you’re getting a more informed person visiting your website than before.
Evan Facinger: And I think that’s a good point because we’ve seen that a lot in SEO. As you start ranking for more terms, the conversion rate doesn’t stay the same as you generate more traffic. If you have a 5% conversion rate on your website with 10,000 visitors, and now you have 100,000 visitors, you’re likely not going to maintain that 5% conversion rate because so many of those searchers are just people seeking information. They’re not at the stage where they’re going to convert, or maybe they never will; maybe it’s just research. So that’s a good point—the people who are going to the website are the ones who need more information, and they are a bit more self-qualified. You might get less traffic, but your conversion rate would be better for the traffic that does go there because they’re essentially self-qualifying before taking that extra step.
Christian Martin Romero: Right.
Evan Facinger: And I think that’s an important distinction to make because that’s ultimately what people want. Traffic numbers are great, and it feels good to see traffic up on websites, but if it’s not leading to conversions, it doesn’t have the desired impact.
Christian Martin Romero: Yeah, the other thing I’d point out is why it’s important for businesses to show up in that generative search. The way Google is laying out their search results now—they change the layout of their pages often, and it’s often driven by the intent and the type of content that matches the query they want to show. The AI generative search is going to be at the top, and Google is dedicating more real estate above the fold to their own listings, whether it’s the generative search, an ad, Google Shopping, or a different kind of service or business listing. So the natural organic number one position may be the only one that’s above all that, and if you’re not getting into these other Google areas, in some cases, that number one position may actually be below the fold. Google is prioritizing other types of content and content mediums, so that AI search is just another area to be at the top of the page. I don’t feel like it’s one that should be overlooked because of the limited availability of real estate on those Google listings.
Jon Ballard: Most of the examples I've seen include the company listing next to the generative search result, where they got the majority of the content. So, like you said, it's a feature snippet on steroids. It's interesting to me, though.
Christian Martin Romero: Right.
Jon Ballard: It seems like they’re pushing ads further down the page too, and that’s what drives Google, so it’ll be interesting to see if it stays that way.
Evan Facinger: Yeah, at what point do ads become the way to get into the AI overview, right? Or at least get listed for that? That’s a big part of what I’m emphasizing—there are so many unknowns. How is this going to shape up? What will happen with how much real estate listings they’ll have on Google search results pages when someone searches? Will they stop even crediting the website as the source of the information? That’s a concern because if you’re not getting any credit and Google evolves over the next couple of years to the point where they’re not citing sources because the AI is good enough to provide the answer, where’s the benefit? You’re just feeding the information without getting any of the credit. But then, we’re talking a lot about Google, and rightfully so because it still has the market share. But how long will that last? Is it forever? OpenAI has their own search coming out, Bing is increasing its market share in some areas, and Google is facing antitrust lawsuits. What if they’re not the default search engine for a lot of products coming out? That could impact their market share. It’s not just about Google anymore, I think.
Jon Ballard: There’s a lot going on in search. It’s an exciting time to be in it. I want to get back to the question I asked you guys earlier: If I’m an SEO and I’m tasked with getting more traffic, leads, and conversions to my site right now, how do I capitalize on AI? What kind of content should I be creating? What are you guys recommending? What are we doing for our clients these days?
Christian Martin Romero: We are developing informational content across websites at a scale we’ve never done before. There are some tools behind that which make it possible, and we focus on those question-asked type queries—long-tail queries. A lot of our clients, especially in B2B or eCommerce, tend to focus heavily on commercial or product-driven content, while informational content often gets put on the back burner. AI is driven by informational content, so we’re really making sure our keyword rankings focus on informational searches.
Jon Ballard: Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of sites lately coming back with FAQs on their product pages, and that seems to really feed into the generative search. You see some of those FAQs starting to show up in the generative search.
Christian Martin Romero: Yes, and it’s becoming more natural in how people are asking questions—both in search engines and AI searches. It’s more than just searching for a topic or a keyword. The old, single-keyword approach is outdated; people are using a more conversational style now.
Jon Ballard: Interesting. Evan, any other thoughts?
Evan Facinger: Yeah, I think it’s an interesting topic. Like you said, I do have thoughts, but they’re more theories about where things are going than anything else. The big thing I keep coming back to is the point at which the search engine becomes more conversational. You ask a question, you get an answer, and it stops there, but then you might have a follow-up question, and you get all your questions answered in that way. I think that’s where a lot of search is heading. Hopefully, as you're creating content, you’re still going to be referenced in it, making sure your key phrases are there and that you’re providing the right context. I think a lot of it will be tied more to people than to companies and websites. So, if you start looking at who is producing the content in your company, let’s make sure they are thought leaders, that they are recognized in the industry. It’s a good time to start that process—giving authorship credit to the developers and producers.
Christian Martin Romero: Yeah, that’s a really great point. We saw something similar a couple of years ago with the E-E-A-T update. Authorship, which had been used extensively several years ago and then kind of went away, is now coming back. More and more authority is being given to content where there’s a reference to who is behind that content.
Jon Ballard: I’ve got to believe that the E-E-A-T principle, if it’s kind of a trustworthiness factor, has got to be somewhere in the algorithm. This is just a theory, but I can’t imagine them trusting a site that doesn’t have good quality content and all the stuff that goes along with it to show up in generative search.
Christian Martin Romero: Yeah, I’m still optimistic because, as informative as generative search is, people can’t do business on generative search. If they want to buy a product or do business with a company, they still have to go to the website. So, until they close that gap, I still think your website is going to be king, and you’ll still be doing business online. I don’t think AI search will minimize doing business online.
Jon Ballard: No, I think when you’re thinking about creating content using AI, it’s still so important to use your personal experiences, your personal knowledge, and references. That’s the stuff AI can’t do, and it sets you apart as an author or an authority in the industry. AI can help generate content, but you’ve got to put your own personal touch, experience, and background into it.
Christian Martin Romero: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and then we use a lot of research to find those topics and subtopics behind content to help create more supportive content. What are people searching for around a topic? And then we find everything else that supports that topic. It’s an insanely powerful research tool.
Jon Ballard: Yeah, I saw this the other day too. I think I was on Amazon or somewhere similar, looking at products to buy. These products had thousands of reviews—who’s going to read through thousands of reviews? One of the things I saw was a generative summary of the sentiment from the reviewers, which I thought was super powerful. I could just see that most people thought this or that, and here’s the problem everyone was pointing out, and here are the pros and cons. Instead of reading through 500 reviews, I could just look at the summary and decide which product is best for me.
Evan Facinger: Yep, I think that’s a good use of it. It’s interesting, though, that here we are talking about the quality of AI and whether we should question the search results, while at the same time saying we use it a lot to trust the sentiment on these reviews. I use it a ton in the research that I do.
Jon Ballard: Yeah, that’s interesting. It’s “trust but verify,” right? A lot of times, we’ll do it on a topic we’re pretty familiar with, and you can tell if it’s going off the rails just by reading it, massaging it a bit. But it’s certainly a time saver.
Christian Martin Romero: Yeah, I think the important thing is that people tend to pick the search engine they trust, which is mostly Google, but there are other AI search engines emerging that people are using. They’re going to use the one they trust. So, if your website is represented in those results, it’s showing you as a trusted resource, whether they click through to your site or not. It’s increasing your visibility and authority on what they’re searching for, and it’s bringing your business to the forefront.
Evan Facinger: Yeah, and I think that’s a good point. Different types of sites and industries are going to be impacted differently. It’s not like the Google search results were always great anyway. If you were looking for a review of a product, all you’d find were a lot of affiliate marketing sites with fake reviews or so-called “real” reviews that were paid for. Sites like that are going to be impacted first because they’ve been manipulating the rankings, providing information that’s skewed rather than functional and correct. On the B2B side, like you said, someone might be getting high-level information but digging deeper into a company itself. So, that’ll be interesting to watch.
Christian Martin Romero: Yeah, I think the big question mark is the analytics. How do we start understanding the numbers behind it? I don’t think that’s really there yet, so it’s hard to quantify what we’re seeing.
Evan Facinger: And where it’s going to go. We’re still in the infancy of all this. There could be a change in the next few weeks that totally shifts how we feel about something and the strategy around it. That’s why, when you ask what you should be doing, I don’t think you should abandon the AI overview thinking it might not produce as much traffic in a few years, or even in a few months. That’s not logical. If anything, you need to embrace the changes, keep up with what’s happening, and continue to produce relevant, authoritative content from a personal perspective with high quality. Not just the same old AI-generated stuff that a lot of people are pushing out. Also, continue to get backlinks to your website. When talking about authority, I believe one of the ways Google determines whether to trust your site is based on the quality of the links coming to it. Keeping up with all of that is going to be more critical now than ever before because changes are coming at such a fast pace.
Christian Martin Romero: Right, and so much of the AI results are now in line with the top 10 of Google organic. It just shows that traditional SEO is still their model, and they’re applying it to AI.
Jon Ballard: I was going to say, it’s time to double down on your content creation and your SEO efforts, if anything.
Christian Martin Romero: Exactly. And also, think about the quality of the content, but also make sure your page is readable, that it loads well and fast. Check your crawl budget, look at your code, make sure it’s structured well and understandable. The easier you make your content indexable, understandable, and usable by search engines, the better your SEO and performance will be.
Jon Ballard: We’ll have another podcast on this in the future, but I think we’ve covered a lot today. Thanks, guys, appreciate the time. Bye, everyone.
Christian Martin Romero: Thanks.
Evan Facinger: Yeah, thank you.