BMB Chp 16 Gerald Collins === [00:00:00] Jean Greene: I'd like to welcome to our show today. Mr. Gerald Collins. Mr. Collins is Electronics engineering technology instructor. [00:00:11] Gerald Collins: Yes, ma'am [00:00:11] Jean Greene: For the Utica campus. he has a long connection to the Utica campus he has been a student here and he has he's entering in his 12th or 13th years as an instructor. [00:00:26] Gerald Collins: It would be 13th. [00:00:28] Jean Greene: 13 years as an instructor on this campus. So he has a dedication to Utica and to the story of William Holtzclaw. What we're going to do today is talk about chapter 16 in The Black Man's Burden. And so I'm going to turn it over to Mr. Collins first to just kind of go into what leapt out from chapter 16. [00:00:49] Gerald Collins: Wow. Wow. First of all, I want to thank you Ms. Green for the invite. And and I thank you for being such a wonderful companion on our journeys together [00:01:00] at the library and, and working with you. But some of the things that really, really stood out for me was how, this particular chapter, how it summarizes a work that Mr. Holtzclaw did for a six year period. He writes a letter to a Dr. Henry E Cobb, and he gives him a synopsis of the things that he's doing, that he's been doing for this six year period. And I mean, if you were to just see how how Mr. Holtzclaw went from nothing to creating a, as he described it, a, a similar Hampton and Tuskegee Institute. Yes. Right. I mean, so he, describes also how he came into this wilderness and he had no capital, no immediate friends, strangers amidst stranger surroundings. And his motives were questioned [00:02:00] and his ability to even accomplish the task was questioned. So he, he proved, he proved himself, but in so doing, he also lays out his guidelines. He lays out the methodology that he used to overcome the obstacles that were presented before him. But one of the major things that you can look at is that. He's not just proving how it can be done. He's proving what Booker T. Washington did. So he did it and he followed the same methodology and he did it again and others did it. And thus you have the little Tuskegee springing up all around. [00:02:43] Jean Greene: Right. Exactly. I like what you said about he did it. He followed methodology and then laid the groundwork for others to come behind him and do the same thing. When he mentioned Mr. Collins what happened in the six [00:03:00] years, we know famously he came with a broken bicycle and only ended up with 2. [00:03:05] Gerald Collins: Yes, ma'am. [00:03:06] Jean Greene: But to go from that to what does he have here? He has a 500 students and 25 teachers in six years. [00:03:15] Gerald Collins: Oh yes, ma'am. [00:03:16] Jean Greene: And then I will tell you he was, when he was listing the the fields of study. Wow. He hit on, you know, he hit several of them and he hit one that I had not heard of before. Wheel wrighting. And I was like, what in the world is wheel wrighting? It's wheel making the person who made the wooden wheels that the mules could pull. Right. And I was like, that's, that was an occupation. [00:03:45] Gerald Collins: Okay. Okay. Yes, ma'am. And, also the Other occupations that he mentioned carpentry blacksmith, sawmaking, general lumber manufacturing, bricklaying, and also going into [00:04:00] sewing, dressmaking. And you might ask, why these particular disciplines? Right. Why are you picking these disciplines? And when you, when you look at it, and the acquiring of land, but before we go there, he mentioned that the first task, the first rank was agriculture, exactly agriculture. And we are taught that agriculture is the engine of a nation, right? When you have a agricultural land based operation. Now you're going to need the trucks. Now you're going to need the mill wrights. You're going to need all these other disciplines, the stores, the carpenters and all of that to come in and to be, but taking it another step further. And him coming into this wilderness, it appears as though he was trying to build his own little farm. Little Nation, if I can stretch it that far. [00:05:00] Because if you remember when he first came, he came into the city Of Utica. Mm-Hmm. . But after some trying times. Mm-Hmm. , he came and he brought himself out of that. Mm-Hmm. . And he moved to this rural area, right. Of virgin territory that he had to carve out for himself. Mm-Hmm. , he removed himself from those distractions. Yes. Yes. And, and so, and in doing so, he started to build. And what he was doing, what he was building. Was really a little, little nation within this nation. Yes, ma'am. And it was it's phenomenal to see that because that was taken also from his teacher, Booker T. Washington. And I had it here somewhere. I'm going to read, if I may, just this little short excerpt. little snippet here. [00:05:52] Jean Greene: And this [00:05:53] Gerald Collins: is from what book? This is from Up From Slavery, Booker T. Washington. [00:05:57] Jean Greene: In [00:05:57] Gerald Collins: chapter 11, he [00:06:00] states, "after the coming of freedom, there were two points upon which practically all the people on our place were agreed. And I find that this was generally true throughout the South, that they must change their names and that they must leave the old plantation." They must leave the old plantation and I'll stop it right there. So, and I'm reminded of a, wise man that was going around giving out names and talking on that separation piece, you know, you got to come out of her, ye, my people and be not partakers of her sins and her plagues. That's Revelations 18 four. Okay. And so to come out and build and get your thing together, you know and then, now you can come on back and, and do the other piece, the integration. Right, [00:06:50] Jean Greene: right. I see what you're saying. And yes, he patterned himself on this man you just quoted on Booker T. Washington. Yes, ma'am. And he [00:07:00] patterned himself on where Booker T. had come from, from Hampton. Right. Yes, ma'am. So that head, heart, hands credo that was the basis of the Hampton mythos was also taken on by Booker T. Washington and then passed on to his students that you had to You had to work with the whole person. Absolutely. You know, you, you had to take every facet of them. You couldn't just take the one thing. You had to work with the whole thing, the whole person. [00:07:30] Gerald Collins: And it had to be practical. Yes. [00:07:33] Jean Greene: Practical, [00:07:34] Gerald Collins: you know. That's right. Yes, ma'am. [00:07:36] Jean Greene: So as we talk about what he was discussing in this chapter, like you said, he was given a reckoning of what they had accomplished in the six years to show, I guess, to show several things. One that yes, the monies that had been invested were well spent, but also that they had actually made a change in the [00:08:00] lives of the people in the community, in the community itself. [00:08:03] Gerald Collins: Yes, ma'am. [00:08:04] Jean Greene: So what did you pick up also from this? Especially it was real interesting when he talked about the churches. [00:08:12] Gerald Collins: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. [00:08:14] Jean Greene: What did he say that they were at one time they were unable, no, unwilling to, to meet in the churches at night because there was so much going on. There was fighting and carrying on. [00:08:25] Gerald Collins: Yes, ma'am. And they were even selling a whiskey. He, he calls it a blind tiger whiskey. I guess that might've been the brand at a day. But he was talking about Right there at the church. Yes. You know, and so the people were kinda kinda lawless, you know? Right? Yes ma'am. But the work that he did was a work of civilizing, a savage, if you will. Mm-Hmm. . And we had been put in that position we had been reduced to savagery and the work that he did. Not just [00:09:00] talking it, but he was actually walking it. You know, the saying is I'd rather see a sermon any day than hear one. Exactly. So the example that he was given the people and the work that he did, it was actually phenomenal. [00:09:12] Jean Greene: Talk about what he did with his teachers. About the extension service aspects of it. If you, if you remember that part of where they divided The surrounding area into parts and each yes, ma'am, you know what i'm talking about? [00:09:28] Gerald Collins: Yes, ma'am when you mention that It reminds of of the modern extension service that the agriculture department has today the united The usda united states department of agriculture how they would set up these extension agents County agents if you are yes now, It came to prove that the county agents turned out to be corrupt. Oh. Modern day. Oh, okay. I'm skipping over some time here. And that's why you had the lawsuit, the Pickford [00:10:00] 1, Pickford 2. Uh huh. Huh. The black farmers were being discriminated against. Oh, I [00:10:04] Jean Greene: remember that. Yes. Yes, ma'am. Yeah. [00:10:05] Gerald Collins: Because at one time doing his life. In 1909, in that area there, we blacks coming out of reconstruction had over 16 million acres of land. And now today we've got maybe 5 million. So, so and part of that was the result of some shady dealings with the USDA. But the way that he would formulate his, His plan and that methodology that he would use, he would use those county agents, right? And they would, and they would have a meetings, they would go and they would, they were like given a territory to cover. And then they would come back and they would like compare notes. But these, [00:10:47] Jean Greene: these were his teachers taking on this role, right? This was not someone that was an official paid County agent at his time, at Holtzclaw's time. It was actually the instructors. [00:10:58] Gerald Collins: Yes, ma'am. Yes. [00:11:00] That, [00:11:00] Jean Greene: that went out and Showed the folks didn't just tell them like you said it wasn't a sermon. They were taught. It was a sermon they could see What would be the the correct methods for? Building the house or farming the land or whatever. [00:11:16] Gerald Collins: Yes, ma'am and when I read that I feel kind of it kind of pricks me because we see That method worked. Why aren't we doing it today? [00:11:27] Jean Greene: Why aren't we doing it today, Mr. Collins? [00:11:29] Gerald Collins: I'm slapping myself, you know, I'm kicking myself. why am I not doing that today? We do it in our own little way. But in a structured structured, methodical manner. You know, with what do they call them where you, things are checked and you have goal posts and you're checking and making sure that people do what they need to do. [00:11:52] Jean Greene: You have evaluations and checks and balances to make sure that happens. [00:11:55] Gerald Collins: Yeah. We call it what deliverables. Yes. Right. And project management is [00:12:00] called a deliverable. And so to assign an instructor to go. And to do and to come back and report and we have to get about the business of that Communication and comparing notes. Yeah, because you know, you might not have the solution. I might have exactly that's right compare notes We can get a better result but yes, ma'am, that was a That process there was really really really The thing they get it done, you know was that extension service and putting people in the community's face. You get to come off the campus, you get to go out and you get to hit it. Yeah. And I'm kicking myself again. [00:12:38] Jean Greene: Don't, don't kick yourself too hard, but you do have to go into the community. You do have to meet the people where they are. Absolutely. And one thing I really wish This message would get across to our current situation is that I know [00:13:00] it's easy to put media posts out there. It's too easy to show that online. And it's real easy to throw up an ad on whatever television station is out there. That's easy. But what's not easy is meeting somebody at the grocery store or meeting them and At church or out at an event and letting them see that you are a human being, and that you can look them in the eye and show them interest because going back to what you said earlier, I'd rather see it than hear it. Don't tell me how you care about the community and you're not coming to the community. You know what I'm saying? Don't tell me how you have our interests at heart, and we don't see you anywhere but running over us as you get off the campus. Right. So that kind of thing. He had one statement that I want to touch on. He [00:14:00] said, But our labors have not been confined to the building of a material institution. We have built our institution yet. As it were in the hearts of the people We have built our institution in the hearts of the people listen at that You know, I want us to do the same thing. I mean as you said, mr Collins The the groundwork has been laid the pattern has been set. All we have to do is pick it up And we don't necessarily have to modernize it because if it is something that is You Tried and true, you don't remake the wheel, you don't try to reinvent that, but you can take it and use it because people are people. No matter what their access to technology tells you. And to me, one of the' lessons of this chapter was [00:15:00] that he built his institution in the hearts of the people. [00:15:04] Gerald Collins: Right, right. Right, right. And when you have a institution that's built in the hearts of the people, then you can go to the bank and you will never get a check stamped insufficient funds. Here you go. Cause your people get your back. Yeah. People have your back. [00:15:24] Jean Greene: Right. You know, if, if we're going to get into a certain mindset. And I'm going to say a word and I may get a little feedback on that. The word is tithing. Sometimes we are ready to go dig in our pocket and pull out that 15 or that 20, but we're not willing to give 15 minutes or 20 minutes of our time. That's your tithe too. [00:15:50] Gerald Collins: That is true. [00:15:51] Jean Greene: You know I hear that all the time. You know, well, I tithe, I pay. I'm like, well, how much of your time are you giving? You know are you willing to, to come [00:16:00] out and let people, you know, see what you do? what is the work that you do? I know the college does something now they called what is it that thing y'all do on Fridays where you go out to the schools, you call it, there's something. [00:16:13] Gerald Collins: Industry visits is one of them. And also we do a little recruiting. Yeah. Yes, ma'am. Yeah. [00:16:19] Jean Greene: And, and that's, that's, that's good. I'm not knocking that cause that's a wonderful thing to get out and show the community and the people around that, that there are programs available. But, You can't turn off and I'm going to say this about my profession. You can't turn off being a librarian because you walk out of the building. No matter where I am, no matter who I talk to, they're going to ask me for information. And I can't say, well, look, now I'm not at the library. I have to try to help them get that information. You know what I'm saying? As the work we do here at the museum, when somebody comes up to talk to [00:17:00] me about the history, I can't say, Oh, Oh, sorry. It's four Oh five. I'm not at the museum. I have to talk to them about that. I have to have the heart for that information. [00:17:12] Gerald Collins: and any, One that's, has that passion or that might be something that they're born to do, you know, a teacher, an instructor, someone willing to share, they will seek out these teachable moments and Instruct. Yeah. And share. Right. And [00:17:31] Jean Greene: that's what he was doing here. [00:17:33] Gerald Collins: Absolutely. [00:17:33] Jean Greene: In that teacher's extension movement, in that black belt improvement society. Absolutely. He was stepping outside of the parameters of the school and reaching out to help the people better improve themselves. And these things were being seen. By the political officials. Cause he was writing on a regular basis to the governor. [00:17:57] Gerald Collins: And also when you mentioned [00:18:00] writing one of those let me see if I can find it here. How it's where they actually had a paper, a newspaper, a printing. operation going. The Southern Notes paper. That's what [00:18:13] Jean Greene: it was called? The, the school had a newspaper called Southern Notes. Wow. [00:18:17] Gerald Collins: But see, he had learned from Booker T. Washington. In his day I was reading from the same book, Up from Slavery. Mm hmm. He's saying that how he got in a situation where a. Politician who he really, really liked and was, and he felt that he had the right heart, but the politician didn't know the fine English and all of that. And he was being attacked and [00:18:44] Jean Greene: That was when a Holtzclaw was in Georgia. Was it not? [00:18:47] Gerald Collins: Yes, ma'am. And so he wrote under an alias, right? And he, and he actually saved the politician and won it over, but somebody has got to be in a position to publish [00:19:00] the good news and he recognized that at an early age. Because you can be isolated, you know, and people can come against you and so him writing the papers and and getting that information out. It was really, really, really important. [00:19:14] Jean Greene: Getting back to our discussion on what the letter writer, there was a letter written to Holtzclaw and he said, the person who wrote to him said I think this was Dickerson from New Haven, Connecticut, who told him what impresses me most about your work is not what you have done at the school, But what you've done in the community, right? Right. And Someone else told him, What I said to you there, I repeat now, namely that such good work and results as you show at Utica, You being a graduate of Tuskegee is a veritable guarantee of the wisdom and worth of the Tuskegee method. So I did take issue with [00:20:00] one term, you know, the, the one thing about Holtzlaw's book is I have to constantly remind myself that this is 1915 [00:20:11] Gerald Collins: in [00:20:11] Jean Greene: segregated Jim Crow America. And so some of the terminology is not going to be terminology that I'm comfortable with. But one of the writers said, the solution of the Negro problem. By true education is the only solution. And my visit to the South made me more hopeful of results than I was before. I took issue with the phrase, Negro problem. Okay. And, you know, are we a problem? And if we are approached as a problem, then that is a problem. You know, but I had to remind myself that this was 1915 in Jim Crow America, and so it would have been a common thought that getting education for black folks would solve a [00:21:00] Negro problem if you were of another racial persuasion. Right. So I'm, I'm not saying that this man did not have the uplifting of the people at heart, but I had to really understand what they were coming from, where they were coming from. [00:21:21] Gerald Collins: But he did the author did point out that that true education. Is the only solution [00:21:29] Jean Greene: and it is [00:21:30] Gerald Collins: and but then you have to define what is like you're saying what is that Negro problem? okay, and solving that problem Holtzclaw came up with He, you don't judge a man all the time by his friends, you judge a man by his enemies. If you really can imagine the enemies that he was creating, okay, now you've got here black people amassing 3, 000 acres of land. I got you. [00:22:00] Okay. Now what is it? What is the landlords? The tenants? What do they have to say? What do the sharecroppers have to say about that? Right? Exactly. This becomes a negro problem. It does. Okay. And then here you are, you're raising people up to a moral standard. And that's probably one of the reasons why they had the, the dressmaking and, and you know, the refinement that he was teaching. Now you're, you're getting people out of this. This debauchery you're getting people he was mentioning out of jail and getting them right. Stopping them. He was like a traffic cop, really stopping people from going to the jail. And that was the chain gang. And so here you're interfering with money making. Operations, right? [00:22:46] Jean Greene: I hadn't thought about it like that because [00:22:48] Gerald Collins: today, today prison is on, you know, it's big business, private prisons, you know, I mean, they might pay you 75 cent a day, you know, for skilled labor in a penal [00:23:00] institution. Yeah. So also look at your woodworking. Now you don't have to go to the lumber mill, right? So you're, You're upsetting some people who could be making this profit, right? [00:23:12] Jean Greene: I see what you're saying. Okay, [00:23:13] Gerald Collins: so now The person that made that tiger with blind tiger whiskey, you know, hey, you know, he was making money off of that [00:23:21] Jean Greene: That's right. You're in you're you're interrupting his cash flow. Absolutely i'm glad you brought that up because that that gives me some clarity on where that that was probably coming from the, you know, when you think about, as you said, what kind of enemies he was making, I hadn't really thought about this in that context. I want to thank you, Mr. Collins. [00:23:42] Gerald Collins: Oh, thank you, Ms. Green. [00:23:44] Jean Greene: For, Agreeing to be on our program today, and I also always appreciate our discussions. And I have over the years that we have about Holtzclaw and our history. Yes, ma'am. But I do appreciate how you have [00:24:00] included portions of this book in your class. [00:24:04] Gerald Collins: Yes, ma'am. [00:24:05] Jean Greene: Because you have included learning the history of the institution in what your students need to do, and I would really love. Only today. [00:24:15] Gerald Collins: Just think about it, we're at Tuskegee University. Yes. This is the Tuskegee Airmen flying over, okay. [00:24:21] Jean Greene: I like that, I like that. They're doing that, they're doing that low pass over the, over the building. [00:24:27] Gerald Collins: But you know that there are selling points to this, to the campus. You know this campus the aesthetics, it's a beautiful campus and it's a sanctuary. Yes. You know you come on this campus. You know, you get to come correct, right? That's right. We get the we got our own police force. That's right. And so we've got Health if you need some nurses Yes And and these are some attractive things to be able to pull away because you step outside the gates and [00:25:00] Some places it's really chaotic, you know. Yes, that's true. And so, to be able to come in and we can sell this place really as a sanctuary. [00:25:07] Jean Greene: Yes, it really is in more ways than one. I like that we're able to take our students and bring them in and nurture them. And even though we are in the rural, we are taking them away from a lot. Right. That distracts them as well. Right? [00:25:24] Gerald Collins: True, true. [00:25:25] Jean Greene: So thank you Mr. Collins. No, [00:25:28] Gerald Collins: thank you Ms. Green.