chap 18 bmb discussion brandon === [00:00:00] Jean Greene: Thank you officially, Brandon Forrester, for joining me to discuss Chapter 18. And for my listeners, Brandon is with Media Justice, which is formerly the Center for Media Justice, and he is the National Organizer for Internet Rights and has a background in education. Which makes you perfect for Chapter 18 of Black Men's Burden. And I think first thing I want to do before we actually get into deep, deep discussion of Chapter 18 is for you to kind of give me your take on what that chapter was and who it looked like Holtzclaw was at this point. [00:00:43] Brandon Forrester: Yeah. Well, you know, structurally the chapter is, I feel like it's kind of about two different issues that Holtzclaw is writing letters about, but really they're essentially about the same thing essentially is saying, and he's really explicit in the letter and in the chapter and [00:01:00] saying, well, let me take a step back. The first thing that he says in the chapter is, is despite all of its richness, the South is being left out because the Black population is being neglected. [00:01:11] Jean Greene: Yes. [00:01:12] Brandon Forrester: Yeah, so that's the core of what it's about, and the two kind of examples that he works through are the two kind of specific instances that he talks through and uses these letters are highlighting the ways in which, who, has the power to make all these decisions? You know, who, it's not that, it's not through any fault of Black folks that, The state or the south or the state of Mississippi was not, you know, able to achieve at its highest level. It was due to neglect by those in power making choices for those who didn't have that power. And I think that's what I read the chapters being about. [00:01:47] Jean Greene: When he said, he actually said that it was due to neglect. [00:01:50] Brandon Forrester: Yeah. In that chapter. [00:01:52] Jean Greene: And as I have read through the book, sometimes parts of it are hard to read [00:02:00] and sometimes because my understanding of what he had to do to get his point across. That's right. Doesn't jive with my 2024 sensibilities. Sometimes I, you know, I have to stop and go, okay, wait, what's going on? And then back up and go, no, this was, this was 19, 1915 and Jim Crow was in serious power. And so he had to tread lightly. To say what he needed to say. And I, I think of him as being real cutting edge on a lot of things in his own 1915 way, doing things that we need to be able to figure out how to do today. Advocate. And whatever, but I agree with you, your earlier statement before we started that he was really radical. [00:02:58] Brandon Forrester: Yeah, I think so. [00:03:00] Yeah. [00:03:01] Jean Greene: When you talk about the issues, we start out talking about the agricultural schools, [00:03:08] Brandon Forrester: right? [00:03:08] Jean Greene: And how they were building white. Right. But they weren't building them for black kids and there was really no urgent need they felt for them to do that. So he did, something that was kind of unheard of. He asked about that [00:03:29] Brandon Forrester: and, [00:03:30] Jean Greene: Appealed to the governor, he wrote the governor of the state of Mississippi. Mississippi. And I'm just really glad that he, he wrote this governor because we've had governors. [00:03:44] Brandon Forrester: And I [00:03:44] Jean Greene: think the one that came right before this guy, Vardeman, I don't know if I'll have to see how his connection was with him. But this man actually did answer him, at least. [00:03:57] Brandon Forrester: Yeah. [00:03:59] Jean Greene: But what do [00:04:00] you think about the tone of the letters, and [00:04:03] Brandon Forrester: Yes. [00:04:05] Jean Greene: Can you, can you speak to how you felt about that? [00:04:09] Brandon Forrester: Yeah, I mean I think there are two ways to read it. There, you could read it on, on its face, the words that he's saying, you know. even when he talks about what it looks like for the state of Mississippi to be only funding schools for white folks. He essentially, he starts that sentence by saying, you know, there are some people outside of Mississippi, who might think might have the quote exactly he said. We just, Oh, and it is in the opinion in sections outside of the state of Mississippi, that the Negroes in this state do not get a square deal from their fellow white citizens. So he's not saying it's not us here, but you know, this appearances may be. But I also feel like whether you're a black person reading this now, or you're a black person reading this in 1916, I think. the subtext is very clear what he's saying. And I think when we get to the second topic, Lee talks about lynching [00:05:00] and mob violence that that becomes even more clear. [00:05:02] Jean Greene: Yeah, I was really interested in this section of it all interested in the whole book, but in this section of the chapter, when I was reflecting on what Bartleman had said when he, he was approached about. money for education for black folks. And he said that it was nothing to take the taxes of black folks and put it, it was better spent educating white kids. And I'm like, really just said that out loud and actually meant that. So even though others weren't maybe vocalizing it, they were still creating laws and opportunities for whites. That they were refusing to do for black folks. And he mentions here about the man who, a black man who refused to pay his taxes because they were taking this, you know, taking his tax money and not using it for his community. [00:05:59] Brandon Forrester: That's right. [00:05:59] Jean Greene: [00:06:00] Still do this, right? [00:06:01] Brandon Forrester: Yep. Tax money is [00:06:02] Jean Greene: still taken and spent on communities that are not us. [00:06:08] Brandon Forrester: Right. Oh, [00:06:08] Jean Greene: we, we were dealing with. Most recently a suit that came before the Supreme Court in February, the Mississippi Supreme Court, about 10 million that Lynn Finch wanted to take from public schools and put into private schools. 10 million. Yeah. And I think they went ahead. I kind of blanked on that because I was a little upset, but they went ahead and let her do that. And okay, that there were protests. The NAACP protested the Mississippi Association of Educators, other groups, and so the, the mindset is still here. Yeah. [00:06:46] Brandon Forrester: there's an interesting thing about that too, where, well, not to even mention, you know, that's a great example, but also we can think you could say like, at least that was still going to some kind of education that people's tax money was going to I guess that's better than going to Brett Parve's daughter, getting a [00:07:00] volleyball court, which is where money that's supposed to help families that need support and eating. [00:07:05] Jean Greene: That's true. [00:07:06] Brandon Forrester: They're, they're taking that money to build volleyball courts for multimillionaires. Yeah. [00:07:11] Jean Greene: What was the method black people had to voice what they, they wanted? And he mentioned that he asked for the, I think the quote is I believe you will find it easy to excuse the liberty I may seem to assume in thus addressing [00:07:28] Brandon Forrester: you. [00:07:29] Jean Greene: When you remember that this means a petition is the only way my race has of making this once known to you. There was, there was no other way. That that that could be done that would not end in a method that was not beneficial. [00:07:44] Brandon Forrester: Right. And this is, this is after Reconstruction, right? Yes. Because it's not that, it's not that this is a time in which there had never been Black folks in the South that were part of government, that had some kind of power, that were able to vote. So this is after that change, [00:08:00] right? [00:08:00] Jean Greene: That is correct. It is. It is after we're talking in early 1900. And so they'd already had the constitution of 1890 that stripped all of that from black folks. And they then constituted wrote into the constitution of the black codes and established Jim Crow. And so this is after all of that. Right. And he was trying to, to work his way through. Using the methods that Booker T. Washington put upon his folks to use in order to circumvent the process and get to the people that they needed to get to. [00:08:41] Brandon Forrester: Right. [00:08:41] Jean Greene: So he is, he is doing what he was trained to do and what he had temperament to do. And that was to, to actually stand up and go forth and, and talk to the head government official in the state. And lay out [00:09:00] in no uncertain terms what was needed, what, what the questions were and how it looked to, as you said, outside folks, we're not just talking about folks in Mississippi, but folks who look, look outside. And he mentioned that he is speaking from experience because he has had personal contact with people in many states. From Mississippi to Maine, because he's always going up the East Coast to do those fundraising tools. [00:09:32] Brandon Forrester: And let me just quickly mention that it's not in my chapter here that we're discussing, but he, he talks about that and says, you know what? If anybody should get credit, the most part of credit for this school, it's Mary Ella. She's the one that's, that's here, that's dealing with it when there's a crisis, I'm out traveling, having to deal with all these white folks, which is its own. Kind of thing, but she's the one that has to be here to take care of this every day and to deal with whatever is coming, you know, in the state of [00:10:00] Mississippi. And so I just want to make sure that, we give her, her flowers too. [00:10:04] Jean Greene: Oh, well, I'm glad you mentioned that because I'll talk to you after this about what we're trying to do to highlight the Mary Ella and women this month. So yeah, she, she ran it. While he was on the road eight months out of the year. [00:10:20] Brandon Forrester: Yeah, [00:10:21] Jean Greene: so it was completely in her control With the executive council that they had set in place. So that included teachers and Some of their children who were also teachers. So these folks are operating while he's out trying to raise money They're operating with no money until the money starts kind of filtering in bit by bit You But let's move on because I want us to circle around at the end to talk about how his what he's going through at this point resonates with us today and the things that we can [00:11:00] glean from him to give us inspiration on how to, to work through some of the things that we're having to deal with today. But let's get into his letters about lynching. [00:11:12] Brandon Forrester: Yeah. [00:11:13] Jean Greene: Talk to me about what you saw in the letter in response. [00:11:16] Brandon Forrester: Well, in, in some ways it was, it was very similar to the letter about the agricultural schools. Now I know that this was also like a little, a little hard to kind of read the part where And appealing to kind of the white conscious, he talks about, you know, I heard that there were even black folks that were lynching a black man and but really what that is, is that that's a step in the pathway towards the line that he says later on that's essentially like on lynching, you better get your house in order because y'all will be next on the menu. That's not his word. His words are, right? It is an easy step from lynching a Negro while being applauded by white men to murdering a white man while being applauded by Negroes. He did, and [00:11:56] Jean Greene: that, that was pretty subtle. [00:11:57] Brandon Forrester: Yeah, well, I don't know how [00:12:00] subtle that was, you know, that seemed like that was some of the other chapters previously and things that people said to him. Him saying that in a letter to the governor seemed [00:12:08] Jean Greene: Kinda radical. [00:12:09] Brandon Forrester: Polite, but yeah, kinda, kinda radical. And, You know, I think the point, the parallel between both is what he's saying, again, is he's kind of calling the bluff and saying, you know, it's clear that you all are willing to give up the agricultural schools for everybody to keep black folks from having it. you'll let the law go and then, you know, eventually you'll end up passing the law so everybody can get it, but and implement, you know, when it, when it actually works out, black folks still aren't getting that, those resources, which is still true today. But he also, again, is appealing to this idea that like, we don't have the power to change that, like you all have the power. And he says, you know, here in the South, the white men make the laws, they interpret the laws. And they should enforce the law to the last letter, not overwrite it because all of the machinery of the government is in their hands. They can destroy or defend and a black man can say nothing [00:13:00] but look on and it matters not what may be his opinion of the white man's sense of justice. And so every time you make a law and you fail to abide by it, so long as it's on the statute books, you've done just as much to undermine the structure of a civilized government. I hear him kind of clearly saying to me, That despite the ways throughout this book, that he is told that black people are ignorant, are not worthy or not worthy of the dignity. Here he's saying is, you know, who's the actual brute, who are the brutish ones, who are the ones that are uncivilized, it's the folks that, that have all the power to make the laws. And they, they, they still can't be civilized enough to abide like that you get to make the rules. But you're not civilized enough to abide by the rules that you get to make. It's like, imagine, you're playing, you're going to somebody's house to play Monopoly, and they're like, oh, we got a special about the park, and we got a special about this. Oh no, but when you landed on Park Place, it's a different rule for you. That rule's only for me. It's like, yeah And that's, [00:14:00] and that's throughout, and I feel like, you know, that's very parallel with today. And that's, Obviously, there's more representation in government at the federal level, at the state level, however you want to look at it. But at the end of the day, the power structure in Mississippi is a white power structure. And they'll do anything that they can to maintain that at the expense of the white population of Mississippi. And that's true of the federal government too. As much as we, you know, might want to think, you know, Obama say, you say this, we're post racial, I mean, obviously we're not. Trump showed us that not to be political. we're a nonpartisan organization of media. Just, I'm just speaking Brandon's opinions. But it is true. And you see the way that even still, when there are federal or state laws that are passed that seem on their face. Like they are not going to be discriminatory or neglectful or depriving black folks. And that's how I met you all. Right. Coming down to to learn about your experience with the internet. There's all this federal money. That's supposed to connect. Everybody, every, every [00:15:00] household in the United States is supposed to be connected to have this money spent, but you know what, there are a lot of barriers, including primarily the state of Mississippi is the one that gets to decide what to do with that. Does it seem like the state of Mississippi is really interested in and spending those resources on Unica? I hope so. [00:15:16] Jean Greene: We'll have to see so far. You know, we don't, we don't know. There were so many, I'm going to step back for a second to some other quotes that were in the book that jumped out at me from this chapter. One was after he, in the letter, he talked to the governor, then he was commenting on it. And like, he didn't know what effect it had if it had any effect, because it talks about the bill that was passed just after that letter was sent. And then he goes into talking about the lynching evil. The quote was I think at the bottom of page 206, where he says the same spirit that swings up a poor, ignorant, [00:16:00] degraded negro in the South and riddles his body with bullets is the identical spirit that dynamites a house and other sections and ca and occasionally assassinates a high official committing more crimes cannot be a cure for crime. [00:16:14] Brandon Forrester: That's right. [00:16:15] Jean Greene: And that I underlined because sometimes it seems. Committee and the other crime justifies that as a deterrent to all crime. And I'm putting that in quotation marks and another quote, he I know this was the one where he says, it does not need a profit to tell where such actions are will ultimately lead. And that's when he talks about what you were talking about, the, the Black folks lynching someone in Marigold. It also reminded me of earlier in the book when he had gone to a plantation up near Yazoo, I think, and the man told him, if I told them to take you out there, they'd never see you again and lynch you, they'd do right [00:17:00] what I said. So here we have him talking about that what you said, it was an easy step from doing that to go into violence and that it's at this, this sort of crime. Is unjustifiable under all circumstances in a civilized country, and that civilized men don't do so barbarous a practice, and you're right for him to actually say, call this barbarism, and that anyone who does this, the context is, is a barbarian, and you're right, it just goes on from there where he talks about, and you're right. Ignorance is at the bottom of every crime that provokes the mob spirit and in Mississippi, that mob spirit was calculated to the point that lynchings were not spur of the moment you know, they just got mad and they just went in and they just jerk the [00:18:00] person out and just lynched them. No, they advertise these [00:18:03] Brandon Forrester: things, [00:18:04] Jean Greene: like this was a big event, you know, come one, come all, we got four or five, we're gonna lynch, and the governor says he is powerless to prevent it. [00:18:15] Brandon Forrester: Oh, I haven't even really heard about that. He's like, I didn't know people are getting lynched in Mississippi. I had no idea. [00:18:20] Jean Greene: I had no idea. And it's in the Jackson daily news and Claire and ledger and telling you when it was and where it was and you know, like pack a lunch and come on down. Oh, he did say though on page two or eight. When he is in his letter he says, I beseech you to open the schoolhouse door to every child, Negro child, as much for the sake of the future of your people as for mine. And if you land your great influence to the work of helping us to better the condition of our people, he says, I pledge you the hearty [00:19:00] efforts of 10, 000 educated Negroes in this state. And we'll see to it. As far as they can, [00:19:07] Brandon Forrester: that crime [00:19:08] Jean Greene: is wiped out, and there is neither an excuse or an occasion to utilize for the law. So, you know, as many times as I have read through portions of this book, there are always times when it seems like Holtzclaw might try to acquiesce to the folks around him, but in his, communications, his official communications, He's really firmly on the side of, let's do something. Let's better our people. [00:19:40] Brandon Forrester: Yeah, yeah. And you know, you talked about thinking of him as a radical. You know, I, I feel like, certainly in this chapter, he's, he's trying to encourage the state to, to build out this infrastructure for, for black communities. But, what he, what he's been doing, what he ends up doing, is, something that's [00:20:00] similar to what Marcus Garvey was trying to do. It's something that's similar to what Malcolm X was trying to do, right? He said it wasn't about segregation for the sake of segregation. It was about realizing that if you're not going to include us in this society, other than in all these awful, harmful ways, then we're going to have to build our own. We're going to have to figure out how to do this. And I think that that also speaks to why The school was about industry and agriculture. It was about giving people everything that they needed to be self sufficient, not just to be good workers in the system. It was about how can we have everything we need to have a community? How can we have people that are trained to print? How can we have people that are trained, you know, all of these things, these things that were, that were the, the, you know, edge of technology at the time was about how do we, how, if we're not going to be able to be a part of your society by. Only by your determination, then we're going to have to figure out how to do it for ourselves. Which doesn't mean he's going [00:21:00] to stop asking, right? He did. He had [00:21:02] Jean Greene: the power plant, he had the water system, he had the, they were training nurses, so they were going to have people that had to give healthcare, provide healthcare for the, the community. They had teachers going around showing people how to clean their homes, how to make sure that they had food prepared properly. So he was doing all of those things to create. Not necessarily an insular community, but a a self sufficient [00:21:37] Brandon Forrester: community. And [00:21:41] Jean Greene: what I wanted you to talk about too was, and that's what you're doing, is bring it to 2024 for us. So we've got this example of a man from 121 years ago who was doing things then. That we need to get [00:22:00] back to now, and some of us are working towards that but how do we, how do we use his example as an inspiration for us in our connectivity? Say, [00:22:11] Brandon Forrester: yeah, yeah, well, if I had the answer, that would solve it all, you know, It would be solved. But I think there are, there are certainly, lessons that we can take from him. One is, you know, you gotta write that letter. You gotta, you gotta try to hold folks in power accountable. Even, even when you may not believe that it will happen, or even when you are uncertain. Just like that, the, the example of the man who didn't pay his taxes. You know, I'm not, I'm not telling people stop paying your taxes until you get internet and Utica. Cause in some ways the courts may have gotten even worse, you know, than they were back then. But you know, he is willing to try to work the system that exists in order to benefit his community. We should all be willing to do that, you know and so, but, also I think that [00:23:00] he understands that fundamentally That neglect and deprivation is not something that's going to go away, and that the system is never going to be built for communities like Utica, whether that's in 1915 or 2015 or 2024. Right. And it's not to say that, that, that Utica or other places are not, you know, can't be great thriving communities. It's just like, don't expect the state to be offering a lot of help in achieving that. Exactly. [00:23:27] Jean Greene: Yes. That, that's what I really see as his example. Yeah. I'll ask them to help us, but we got to help ourselves. And this is what we have to do. We have to be motivated. We have to work together. We have to not Not back bite, I guess I call it and down. We need to build up not only the structures, but each other and efforts to do that because he, he had to work against that to, I guess, trying to tear him down [00:24:00] and talk about what he was doing and how it went. Right. And, and being afraid and using their fear as a shield to not do any of the work of building the community. [00:24:11] Brandon Forrester: Yeah, [00:24:11] Jean Greene: the other thing he did to Brandon is he led by example, and he didn't just tell people what to do. He showed them and he didn't just talk the talk. He put his, intent into words and that he did gave to the people in power. And like you said, he might have felt. That that wasn't going to work or come about, but it didn't stop him from trying. And sometimes I see where and I've had it said to me why are you doing all this talking? The white folks ain't gonna let you do, you know? [00:24:51] Brandon Forrester: Yeah. Well, [00:24:53] Jean Greene: that doesn't stop me from asking. You know, I have the right to ask the question, I have the right [00:25:00] to expect that we, this community would get help, that we would get, as you say, the internet, we would get connectivity, because connectivity is the new gate, [00:25:13] Brandon Forrester: you know, [00:25:14] Jean Greene: if we don't get through that gate of connectivity, we're gonna be left behind just as if the, the folks in Holtzclaw's day Didn't get that training and that education. That was a block to them advanced. [00:25:28] Brandon Forrester: So [00:25:29] Jean Greene: everywhere we go, there's going to be gates that we have to try to get through. And we can stand there and look at the gate and go, well, you know, there's a gate there. [00:25:37] Brandon Forrester: Yeah, [00:25:38] Jean Greene: I don't know what we gonna do. Or you can, you know, see what the lock is and try to pick it. [00:25:44] Brandon Forrester: Yeah, yeah. And you gotta bring your friends to pick it with you though. It's not something that you can do on your own, you know. That's right. I think another thing that was really important for his work was, You know, the model that he was fighting against was sharecropping, where [00:26:00] people were in persistent poverty. And even after seeing the example of his father, not being able to succeed after trying to, I'm going to buy my own land, I'm going to run my own farm, and I'm not going to be a sharecropper. And I think, I feel like in, In a lot of ways that probably inspired him to care so much about understanding and having this, not being agricultural, it's just something that you're doing, you know, just out there, you know, putting around in the, in the dirt with the shovel, you have to have no technology. You have to know technique. You have to know what you're doing, but all of that. Was about ownership, having a place that you own. And you see that that's what the school is doing is it's teaching people and it's helping people to figure out how can you own your parcel land? How can he, and, and the school was parceling off parts of the school's land to folks, right? That's right. [00:26:47] Jean Greene: That's exactly right. They also had the, and we've talked in, in earlier chapters about the teacher's extension movement. Yeah. And others have talked about that modeling of what needed to be [00:27:00] done. [00:27:00] Brandon Forrester: Yeah. [00:27:01] Jean Greene: Going out and showing people, having them work towards the land and then having them. And the farmers conferences testify about their process, how they did it so that other people could could see a way clear to do it. And even in that, there were people who were opposing it. Well, how long did it take it? That sounds like a lie. You know, [00:27:24] Brandon Forrester: there's [00:27:24] Jean Greene: always going to be opposition, but he is an example of how you transcend that. [00:27:30] Brandon Forrester: Yep. [00:27:31] Jean Greene: And to me, we're out sitting on this campus. This is a lesson that needs to be reiterated that just because we are at this point today does not mean we are sliding off the hill into oblivion. [00:27:47] Brandon Forrester: We [00:27:47] Jean Greene: can, we can check this back up and regroup and then attack it from another way. One thing that, and I'm not trying to belabor the point, but one thing that I would like [00:28:00] people to do [00:28:01] Brandon Forrester: is [00:28:02] Jean Greene: not be discouraged by hearing one, no. You, you try to do something, someone tells you no, and you go, Oh, well, that's good. You might as well go to the house. Instead, ask that question another way or persist. It's persistence and consistency that can push through a lot of the time. [00:28:22] Brandon Forrester: That's right. Yeah. [00:28:24] Jean Greene: Anyway, [00:28:25] Brandon Forrester: that's [00:28:26] Jean Greene: what I [00:28:26] Brandon Forrester: was thinking. No, I think that's right. And you know, I, you know, my job is to be an organizer. And whatever form of organizing you do, you're getting a lot of no's. Whether it's, you know, you're knocking on doors to, you know, Try to tell people about an election. You're knocking on doors to try to help people form a union. You get used to, it makes dating a lot easier when you're an organizer. 'cause you're just used to, to, to people telling you no, and you just let it slide right off you . But you have to, you have to, and, and I, and I don't say that is like, I, I say that because I think what we're saying is everybody has to learn how to be [00:29:00] an advocate and an organizer to some extent. You know? Yes. Which means that you have to be willing to one, know what you want. And two, be willing to ask for it, and three, be willing to hear a no and figure out what are you going to do next, you know? [00:29:12] Jean Greene: Yes. [00:29:13] Brandon Forrester: We all have to be willing to do that because there's a lot of no's out there for everything that we want and everything that our communities deserve. And if we stop at that first no, we're stopped. That's it. [00:29:26] Jean Greene: I met with some of the legislators Mississippi Black Caucus. And this was, this was a few years ago, we were at a breakfast meeting and one of the legislators said, I'm really glad to talk to you, but where are the other folks that should stand with you? Because I'm going to go down the hallway here, and there's going to be another group, and there's going to be 10 of them. Where's the other folks that are going to stand with you? And I thought, that goes back to that, that [00:30:00] saying, Brandon, that says. One voice makes a difference, but many voices create change. [00:30:05] Brandon Forrester: That's right. [00:30:06] Jean Greene: Right. So I was like, well, you know, it's that like that stick and the bundle of sticks. So try to get folks to understand that sometimes you don't need 400 people. [00:30:19] Brandon Forrester: That's right. [00:30:20] Jean Greene: If you had 4 or 10 or 20 sometimes when the, the government officials. Get ready to do something. It's not 20 letters that do it. It may be three and they go. Oh lord You know, i've got all these people that are talking to me about this. It's three voices So I think sometimes we think we have to have I cast the thousands behind it. We need the potential of the, of the thousands, just like Holtzloff said, he had 10, 000 educated Negroes. [00:30:53] Brandon Forrester: Yeah. [00:30:53] Jean Greene: But I think if we start with three and then six, and then, you know, and it grows [00:31:00] exponentially that way, but you gotta start. [00:31:03] Brandon Forrester: Yeah, and that's that's that's what Holtzclaw did right like he yeah throughout the the whole all the chapters leading up to this are him Finding that one person that next person that next person and you never know Who is going to be the banker that says, okay, you know what? I'm going to trust you. And I'm, I'm going to give you, you're not even gonna have to just pay me back. I don't care when there's no interest, you know, you got to ask all those people, but what he was doing along the way, it wasn't just finding that one person that would help. He was finding all of those people that believed in that vision and all of those people that were willing to work with them. And it took, you know, It, I, I don't know if he would have been able to do it if he wasn't traveling around eight months a year. If he was just staying in the state of Mississippi, asking folks in Mississippi, it may not have been possible. Not that there weren't folks in Mississippi that were helping, but when he talks about folks in Ohio and folks in California and folks in New York, and of course that leads up to what is not [00:32:00] in the book later on with the Jubilee Singers where, you know, they're traveling all around. And, and again, that, was not about the school having an entertainment act just to show off how cool we are. That was organizing, right? [00:32:15] Jean Greene: Exactly. Exactly. It's it's interesting that, that you bring the jubilee singers into it and all the other aspects into it. When Holtzclaw died, , all of that stopped. [00:32:28] Brandon Forrester: Wow. [00:32:28] Jean Greene: And it was not able to, the school was only able to sustain itself for three years after he died. [00:32:34] Brandon Forrester: Mm mm. [00:32:35] Jean Greene: So yeah, there was nobody going out and doing the, the things that he did to bring in not only the money, but the attention. To the school. [00:32:46] Brandon Forrester: Yeah. [00:32:46] Jean Greene: And like he was talking about, you know, folks outside of the state are looking. So he had the eyes of other people looking at what was going on at, at Utica at the Institute. Have you got [00:33:00] anything you want to add? We're almost at the end of our time. But do you have anything you want to add to? What we talked about that we didn't cover. [00:33:09] Brandon Forrester: Yeah. Well, to the last point you made about, you know, when he passed away. It seemed really clear in the book, at least that he, he wasn't like this, this charismatic leader that me, I alone. But what, what you just shared with me, I, I didn't, I didn't know about when he passed away that it was difficult to maintain the school is that again, like that, that goes back to, we were just saying, like, it's not. One voice can do some, but it, but it takes a multitude of folks who are able to do it. And even in that, you know, we, when we think about the folks that are us or in our community who are advocating or organizing, we can't do it as individuals for that reason too, because individuals might get, who knows, might pass away. Might get sick, might just get a job out of state. And, you [00:34:00] know, I still care about this community, but. I gotta go, you know, they might get married and have kids and they don't have time to be doing all that door knocking. And so it's not just that we need to have a lot of people or a handful of people just so that we have more voices and so that we can be that bundle of sticks and so that twig, but also because. We need to have backup. We need to, we need to, we can't just be individuals that are, that are holding all those relationships. And so I don't know, I don't know if that means maybe Mary Ella should have gotten one year, she got to travel and visit all the people and he had to stay, or, you know, so we got to make sure that, that, that folks, and this is what I, you know, I'll, this is what I would, would share that I've heard. I think I'm maybe one or two podcasts behind on the interviews, but I know that something that I felt come across clearly from all of the folks that you spoke to earlier, you talked a lot about when I first got here and how they showed you and they showed you this, how important that was that, you know, we have a [00:35:00] saying for each one, teach one, you know, like it can't just be that you figured it out and then you got it figured out. You have to bring people with you. And I feel like when I was in Mississippi, that is something that I heard a lot that there are people. That don't just stand in like this kind of philosophical lineage. Like, there are people that, you know, I talked to this, this wonderful person Ms. Alita Fitzgerald and and Jackson, who is with the Children's Defense Fund and the Southern Rural Black Women's Initiative. And she just is able, she can go through and tell you, to the line, like, what leads between Fannie Lou Hamer and her. Thank you. And then she can tell you who are the next three people that are in line. And it can't just be like the line of individuals, but, but the point is, is that, you know, you always have to have other people bring along because when Holtzclaw passed away. You needed that next person that was there, you know, and, but I, but that really stood out to me in listening to the, the [00:36:00] earlier episodes of this podcast, just how much that was an important part of you being where you are today, that there were people that, that took you in and they didn't just say, well, I, I'm, I hold this, like I'm the Holtzclaw expert. You don't need to worry about that book. I'll let the students know about that. They said, no, let me show you, let me show you an opening to this and this and this. I, so I just appreciate. In those episodes, you all sharing that kind of, you know, that personal story of you all, too. Yeah, [00:36:27] Jean Greene: and thank you for that. The the one thing I was writing down that you said had to do with vision. It's not just the one person, but there needs to be a vision that's shared and that folks understand and that they buy into. And once they buy into that vision, then they are, they are able to help spread it and advocate for it. And one of the things that Dan and I work towards, especially is sharing the vision of what this community, this school [00:37:00] can do and how it is. Integral and interwoven with the community that it sits in [00:37:07] Brandon Forrester: and [00:37:07] Jean Greene: how it Not not distilling the vision that Holtzclaw had in 1915 and whatever and expanding it for the time and the location. So, try to get that across is it is interesting and I'll mention that we do try to take groups. [00:37:31] Brandon Forrester: Yeah, [00:37:31] Jean Greene: and, and pull them in and take them on a tour kind of like we did with you when you came. This is what this is where we are. This is where we came from. This is what it means for you. Can you see where we're what he did and what that means to you and what you can share. [00:37:50] Brandon Forrester: Yeah, [00:37:51] Jean Greene: some of them, it's just, you know, but a lot, a lot of them think about it enough to come back and talk about it. And one or [00:38:00] two will come in and discuss it. So what, what did I, I don't know if I told you this when you were here. But I, I subscribe sometimes to the starfish theory. I may not save them all, but I can get one. Yes. And throw one back. So thank you. Thank you for saying that. Brandon, I appreciate it. I also appreciate you agreeing to Talk to me today and share your expertise. And I want everybody to know that you are an expert and that you have come to Mississippi and found family and home. And you're welcome to come back anytime. In fact, we look forward to you coming back. So. It'll [00:38:44] Brandon Forrester: be great. [00:38:45] Jean Greene: Brandon, thank you. Thank you so much. And have a good rest of your day. [00:38:50] Brandon Forrester: Thank you. You too.