DJHudson BMB Chp17
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[00:00:00] Jean Greene: So welcome everyone back to the podcast today. I have the honor of having with me DJ Hudson, DJ Hudson. Is a Black trans generational southerner, community organizer he's a people's librarian, a public theologian a renaissance person, and a itinerant movement preacher, and Black cowboy.

So, DJ has consented to discuss Chapter 17 of Black Man's Burden with me today, and in this chapter, if I could be allowed to just do a quick synopsis, Holtzclaw talks to his audience about students who have come to him and gone through the Institute, and how they have positively impacted their communities.

He talks about particular Negro preacher who he met [00:01:00] who had created community and built school and a store that helped the people, the Black people who were in that area sustain their autonomy. These people had multi room homes, had owned land, and were very instrumental in keeping that area going.

He talks about students who had come to him, their father had brought them, and they went on after they graduated to create a school and a community. In the nearby town of Learned, he also mentions Theodcious Skelton who was the 1st boarding student for the Institute and how she went on to teach.

Well, it tells about the background and how she went from that. She transcended that and went on to teach in Florida as well as come back to teach at the Institute. And then, finally, he gives credit to Mary [00:02:00] Ella, his wife, for being supporter of him and his helpmate and partner in the building and running of the Institute.

And that was something that I felt really good to see that this woman, these women, because the other students were women, were uplifted by this man in a time when women weren't being uplifted. And in a place where they were expected to be subservient and not produce or contribute as much as they did.

But I wanted to allow DJ the time to, to pull from all his myriad background and talk about the women, the women's movement, as we say, or compare, if you would how Holtzclaw and the Institute stands in, instead with the the overarching HBCU situation. [00:03:00] So, DJ. 

[00:03:02] DJ Hudson: Thank you so, so much. Thank you and thank you for wrangling with that mouthful of a bio.

I'm so excited to be here and Here we are. I'm excited and ready to get going. And I have so many different thoughts. So I'm, I'm trying to settle and gather myself, but the first I can say is where I want to start is yeah.

And my dear Alma mater Fisk university is where I attended I matriculated through Fisk in 2006 and graduated 20, well, from 2006 to 2010. mm-Hmm, . And one of the things that struck me, I am originally from Atlanta, Georgia, specifically Clayton County, if anybody's familiar with College Park, which is where the airport is, the Atlanta Airport.

And if you know anybody who's around my age, I'm 36, so a millennial, anyone born in the late 80s, early 90s, or who lived in and around Atlanta around that time, then you probably know about how [00:04:00] much the city of Atlanta and especially its demographics were changed by the coming of the Olympics.

And so my story is one that definitely is a time traveling one, but it's one that has always been shaped one by like very, very Black places. I've always been from the South and my whole family is from and again, like Fisk being the place that raised me intellectually in a lot of ways. But I also have been shaped in ways that I'm always coming to understand better.

By these like different divergent forces and different kind of competing value systems of what does it mean for Black people to be free? What does it mean for Black people to flourish and to thrive? What does it mean for there to be justice and equity for Black people? I'm literally a child who is a product of the Black Mecca.

And, and have had the privilege to be able be poured into by many, many Black elders. And so one of the things that struck me when I first got to Fisk was you know, at least when I was a student, one of the first things they do is they take you to the statue of W. E. B. Du Bois that stands on our campus because [00:05:00] Fisk is the place where W. E. B. Du Bois also went to undergraduate. And he stands you in front of the statue and you know, you're, you're full up of all of this powerful, beautiful history that I want to be clear. I have tremendous respect for and I hold it all of its complexity. And as somebody who comes from a long line of working class Black folks, you know, all of my grandparents have been janitors, house cleaners, maids working people is who my people are and where I come from.

It struck me then and has not left me since that the folks who are welcoming us onto campus said that you students as the new class of Fisk University are the talented 10th just like DuBois left us in this legacy. And as a talented 10th, it is also your responsibility to pull up the other 90.

And when they say pull up the other 90, they point behind Du Bois statue across the street over the end of the campus. And what they're gesturing towards is the Andrew Jackson housing projects, which [00:06:00] like a lot of historically Black colleges and universities lives just right across the street. 

[00:06:05] Jean Greene: Right.

And 

[00:06:06] DJ Hudson: the name is, I, I want to say again, is the Andrew Jackson Housing Projects, right? So there's a lot of complexity and contradiction to be found in the different ways that we as Black folks talk about what does it mean, what is Black excellence? What is Black liberation? What is Black freedom? And I've been aware of those one way or another.

And that really has guided a lot of my organizing, my scholarship my, my history and curiosity. So all of that said One of the things that stood out to me the most in reading Holtzclaw and actually got, got, got held up we were talking about it a little bit before we started recording, but I actually got caught a couple of pages before chapter 17 where he is, I believe, quoting from a, I think this is a letter it's a, It is a document from the farmer's and I'm trying to find the page number here because [00:07:00] I'm looking at it digitally, but want to read real quick.

Yeah. Like pages 132, 33 in there is where they are. When he says things like nowhere in the, well, he's not saying this, he's quoting it, but he's quoting it. For a reason because he's, he's trying to amplify this right as, as he believes is necessary for Black folks to understand and to act on. He says, nowhere in the world is there such an opportunity for us as is offered on the plantations of the South.

Where we permitted, we would urge the Southern planters to furnish their laborers better houses, giving them humane treatment, general encouragement and protection against outrages. And by outrages, they mean lynching and race riots. Let's be clear. Exactly. We urge with all our souls that no Negro allow the acquisition of a little learning or of wealth to make him pompous, so as to delight his enemies and disgust his friends.

We should remain sober with a deep sense of imperfection, diligent in every pursuit with simplicity. And manners. [00:08:00] Okay. So one is also a person who is a minister and a theologian because after I left Fisk, I attended Vanderbilt Divinity School because I had a whole lot of questions for God and tradition still do.

And I'm working through them, but I'm, we have a great time answering them. There's a lot of religious language, like laced in here into this document. And this is a document from a farmer's conference. And that's because I recognize Holtzclaw, at least this book, being a part of what Evelyn Brooks Higginbotham would call the politics of respectability, which is actually Black political and religious, cultural, social movement.

But I want to be really clear that it is political and religious as well as social and cultural movement. That was happening from 1880 to 1920. And her book Righteous Discontent is about the women's movement, the women's movement in the Black Baptist church during this time, 1880 and 1920, because what was happening is just like you said, and also as I have seen and known [00:09:00] my whole entire life is that Black women always have the keys. Black women are the ones who were leading from within their churches, but also from, they were leading and they were demanding.

political and economic change because they were facing rape. They were facing, you know, obviously these race riots and lynching, they were also facing joblessness, homelessness, houselessness. And they knew that part of it was because in the reconstruction era, the way that white supremacy was trying to find a way to deal with Black people, the problem of Black.

Right. It's not an accident that Holtzclaw, named his book, even The Black Man's Burden, right. A exactly White Man's Burden is that what was happening is that there were a large body of Black people, maybe a generation or two after Du Bois and Booker T Washington, who were saying perhaps the way for us to keep the boot of white supremacy off of our neck to be allow literally to allow the Black Nation to breathe long enough.

For us to find our footing [00:10:00] in this nation. Listen, Du Bois, we hear you about dignity. We hear you about intellectual, all that. That's great. If we don't survive, if we don't have land, if we don't have jobs, if our children, if cannot move us forward, then none of that matters. That's beautiful, buddy.

We love you, Webby. And also, we gotta eat. And we know these white people will look for any reason to kill us, including believing ridiculous things like that we are dirty or that we are immoral, that we are lazy, and that we deserve sexual assault and violence. And so this movement was really Black women leading by saying, if we can present ourselves as a wholesale, as a people, as exemplary, right, and above reproach, that we have studied, shown ourselves to prove are ready for work and our hands are clean, then what in the world can they say no to us about?

Why would they throw us in jail? Why would they hurt us? Now, the question you asked me when you first invited me [00:11:00] to talk about this much to my joy and elation was, is Holtzclaw relevant today? And I say, but a rat resoundingly a million percent, because what I hear. Holtzclaw saying now really resonates a lot with what you're hearing Black folks say nowadays when they ask questions when we're looking at problems like gun violence, right?

And you're talking about Atlanta and I'm getting very real as a person who this is my home. This is my city. These are my cousins. These are my, you know, my, my neighbors that we're talking about, right? When people talk about, and they say things like, well, what about the, the parents and where are the parents?

And these kids these days are just, they don't have, they don't care about anything or anybody. They're just so violent and they're just on their, phones all the time and playing these video games, right? That is what we see as like a descendant of the same. Attempt, right, to find dignity and survival for Black people.

And we see in this letter, right, and remaining sober with a deep sense of imperfection, diligent in every [00:12:00] pursuit. If we just work hard enough, I'm in Atlanta, the Black Mecca, the absolute kingdom of Black entrepreneurship and hussel culture. Let me tell you Tyler Perry studio. Is a, a peach throw away from where I'm sitting now, you know, and so there's still a very, very strong belief that if Black people, if we can just make enough money, if we can really represent ourselves enough, if we can get kids to behave enough, let's think about all the parents who were videotaped catching their kids at protests in 2020 and how people will turn.

Instead of being able to be where I and my generation and people are at, which is saying a Black person should not have to do a single thing other than draw breath to be allowed to continue to draw that breath with dignity. It doesn't matter what they're cussing. It doesn't matter if they got a bonnet on.

It doesn't matter who they just hit. It doesn't matter how many degrees they have. If they are Black, they are as responsible for their actions as anyone else, but they are also as worthy as dignity [00:13:00] and humanity. And that's people just like what DuBois would say that that is naive. So all that to say, I'm so excited.

You going to have a devil of a time editing this with me. Cause I got lots of, lots of notes and thoughts and ideas, but yeah, I'm really grateful to be here with you today. Thank you so much. 

[00:13:18] Jean Greene: Well, I'm, I'm just really glad that you mentioned a couple of things there. One was The respectability politics that we had talked about earlier before we started recording and I really see how that.

Is woven through Holtzclaw's book. You know, we need to be upright and without spot or blemish. We need to be clean. We need to show the white people that we are, you know, as good and then couple of chapters earlier when you were mentioning that women need to be Able to be feel safe in their workplace.

He mentioned that he had some young women that had gone to work and had [00:14:00] not felt safe in their workplace. They were not quote unquote protected. And that was euphemism for what I knew had to have been sexual assault. So he was writing carefully so that the Black folks would know what he was talking about.

But the white folks wouldn't be offended by what he was talking about. And that was a delicate balance, but I really liked what you mentioned earlier, bringing all of those different elements together, though women in the church, the talented 10th argument that Du Bois had, and that was his, point of digression with Booker T.

Washington. And I wanted to talk too about how. Part of what Holtzclaw did, emulated not only what they did at Tuskegee, but also what Fisk did, and how he worked all of that together to create this, this gumbo that works. To this day. But when you talk [00:15:00] about relevance of Holtzclaw his political acumen, I didn't really give him a lot of credit for that until I read the book and I'd like you to speak on how his.

political relevance is something that we could emulate. 

[00:15:15] DJ Hudson: Absolutely. I think one of the first things that Holtzclaw does that I really am eager to see many more Black folks, especially in my generation, doing and that I myself need to do more of, which is to, articulate The questions and what we believe is our answers, whatever conclusions we might have.

But what are the questions to be asked about what's most important to Black people at this time? One of the things that I think a lot about, right, is the role of social media and the ways that we talk about social media and the ways that we talk to each other about it.

I hear people asking a lot of questions all the time. And a lot of those questions end up getting pointed at us as a community of Black [00:16:00] people of like, why do we spend so much time here and we just put all our business here and all this. And what I want to see more of is folks asking questions about how do we get here.

And if it's not just us wanting to be addicted to a device or a series of apps, what else is happening? And then we start to see the ways that social media are platforms that are run by companies that are now the places where a lot of Black folks understand the most important parts of Black political discourse to be happening.

And I think it's really clear now the role that these corporations are playing now that you have people who are literally having to do the work, like this Black woman who is. You know, out doing the work of, archiving Black Twitter, which is an unimaginable task, but also an absolutely necessary one, one that nobody probably thought was going to be as urgent as it was 10 years ago, when Twitter was still new versus 10 months ago.

When, you know, Elon Musk [00:17:00] first took it, right? And so, like, there's really crucial questions for us as a people and as a community to ask. And I also think it's really important for us to be able to listen to one another. And not listen meaning accepting every single thing that's said and heard. But to actually have a real discourse one of the most important things that I learned both from Black women activists and organizers who trained and who sowed in so much to me in Nashville, Tennessee, my organizing there, but also my professors like Professor Nguyen at Tennessee State University and Fisk University, shout out to her, and dear Dr.

Revis Mitchell, who is an ancestor now, who was the chair of the history department at the time. But one of the things that they stressed to me and so many of my peers was that Black people are not monolithic, and that in order to really truly be a critical thinker, You have to be able to ride the waves of a political discourse by recognizing that, that because we are Black and we are profound and we are beautiful, there's no reason to expect that we would [00:18:00] agree.

And one of my favorite, I've been rereading one of my absolute favorite books ever, which is Zora Neale Hurston's autobiography, Dust Tracks on the Road. And the copy that I found most recently is one that has in the appendix A copy of her essay chapter my people, my people. I love her for so, so many reasons, but one of the things she talks about is how one of the ways you can recognize my people, and she's talking about Black people, but for Zora, that's Black people with the asterisk, a specific subset of Black people.

But it's one of the ways you can recognize us is that we never agree on anything and she's joking, you know, she's being humorous, but you mentioned something early on too, about like the ways that Holtzclaw. you know, is, is, is clearly like, like doing a sort of dog whistling, right? Where he is signaling this very, very actually revolutionary and radical and prophetic message, but he's doing it in such a way that he will not be easily readily recognized as such to the white gaze, right?

Like that's something. I think we are several [00:19:00] generations from understanding as a skill, as something that I think that people who are doing liberation work in the global South do recognize and understand. But like one of the places of political discourse I found myself in, I was trained a lot by people who are survivors of and who are participants in the civil rights movement, especially in Nashville and in the South and in Tennessee.

I spent a lot of time at the Highlander Center. I will. Puppy dog follow behind any movement elder who will allow me long enough and one of the things that I learned from them is that there were a lot more things that people disagreed about during the movement than folks realize and are willing to accept.

That I think that civil rights historians know a lot more about the political disagreements about nonviolence. Right. But what I hear on the streets and from everyday people a lot is people boiling it down to Malcolm versus Martin, which is sadly really reductionist. Only because what it does is it, [00:20:00] it turns nonviolence into what white people wish it was the best way I can, it turns nonviolent resistance into, we love you white people so much that we are willing to pray for you and let you beat the sh__ out of us in public until you realize that maybe that's a bad idea.

That's what Holtzclaw sounds like to us in like 2024 on the surface, right? But what people who have been doing liberation work across the South, the global South, and by the global South, I mean South America, Central America, where you will in the Middle East, I like, you know, in, in Southeast Asia and Central Africa where you can die for saying the things that we don't think twice about quote, like tweeting, you know, things that we can put on a t shirt and let just walk out the house with.

You can end up. Here for saying, and so like there are folks in the world and in history and there are Black people still in our communities today, especially in our families in the deep south. If we were to ask them [00:21:00] who talking about Mississippi. Oh my goodness. Right quick and in a hurry that back in the day in Mississippi and now today white folks knew whose land they would step on and leave with a little bit heavier for the lead and they're behind, you know, Oh, People knew who shot back.

And so there was this was never a kumbaya experience. Mississippi Summer was one of the most deadly experiences, you know, like, like the students wills before they went on the freedom rides. These are things I learned from hearing it directly from folks, right? There's a different way that we talk to each other and that we talk in public when you can be lynched.

just for speaking your mind. And so it's not that I'm saying that we're taking something for granted with the role of social media. I just want us to be more curious about what is shaping what, how we talk about being Black today, how we having these conversations, who's in that conversation, who's missing from the [00:22:00] conversation, right?

Well, like I had a long conversation with my neighbor who I just met earlier today. And I took the chance to ask her, this poor Black lady who's just trying to get to work on her way. You know, what do you think is going to, it's going to take to unify Black people right now, today? Because that's a question that Zora Neale Hurston is recording somebody asking in the 1920s.

And so, of course I should ask this Black lady who is my neighbor, who remembers, The time when the houses on either side of me were populated with other Black people, instead of being populated by corporations, one house on one side of me is an AirBNB other one. The one that she was asking me about is empty because my neighbors who lived there, who were elderly and disabled, who were a family got the house bought out from up under them.

Allegedly bought. We don't know for how much, right? But by developers. A Black one who was the one who came over and shook his hand shook my hand and told me I should be excited because we're [00:23:00] going to be neighbors because they're going to clean up my neighborhood. I live in the West End Atlanta and tore down a church that my new neighbor, Miss Tammy told me that church was 100 years old.

[00:23:10] Jean Greene: They tore that down? 

[00:23:11] DJ Hudson: Tore the church down and bought the house across the street, pushed the, my elderly and disabled neighbors out so that that house can serve as an office. Now this happened about a year and a half ago. That house is still sitting vacant. Atlanta has one of the highest most skyrocketing, most brutal, Houselessness rates in the country.

It's going up everywhere. But one of the things that is a place of deep heartbreak for me and so many Black Atlantans and people who are native to Georgia is how many people you can visibly see living on the streets in Atlanta, the Black mecca and the vast majority of them are Black. Right? Mm-Hmm. . This tells you a lot about the time period that we're in.

This is also the first, one of the first times where the white population of Atlanta and Fulton County is actually rising while the Black population is lowering. Yes. This [00:24:00] is the context in the background of what you hear about, about Cop City and people protesting it, right? This is why Holtzclaw is relevant today.

This is why, no matter what generation you are, if you are listening to this, being able to read and understand that as a people, as a Black people, in order for us to get free, there's never going to be one singular person. Because when I asked Miss Tammy, What do you think is the answer to unify the Black people?

She got really sad in the ways that a lot of Black folks will say and say, and the first thing she did, she looked off in the distance and she said, King is dead. He's dead. They're gone. They're all 

gone. I don't know who's going to be the centralizing leader. For her. That's what she's saying. Yeah. 

Yeah.

For her. And for her, the only one is Jesus. And again, this is where we come back to the power of the Black church, which again, unfortunately, I believe has also lost its way in a lot of ways because the Black church now you're just as liable to go to church and you are [00:25:00] going for a worship experience.

One of my professors, Dr. Stacey Floyd Thomas at Vanderbilt Divinity School, a womanist ethicist used to point the difference in the distinction. Of a worship center versus a church. When Black people went to the Black church, you went to the church, your church served as a bank. Your church was a place where you could find jobs.

Your church was a place where life services were done, where you could be married, where you could be christened, baptized, and buried, right? To a church for pastoral care. You went to a church when someone in your family was experiencing violence or abuse or incarceration and a worship center. You go to worship and I'm gonna stop there.

But I think that it is really important for us to be literate in the variety of the ways that we as Black people have tried to get free so that we can recognize there's never going to be one answer. And we need the tension that comes out of a diversity, not just following the biggest, brightest, shiny thing, because nowadays, [00:26:00] unfortunately, that's liable to be a lot more about capitalism than it is to be about liberation, even if about Blackness.

[00:26:07] Jean Greene: I got you. I'm really interested in, where you were going with that. And I was thinking in about Holtzclaw. I'm always thinking about Holtzclaw. And you mentioned about the social media and for the time, his media, since he was a printer, his media was his southern notes and the, letters and articles he wrote, that was how he.

moved the word around about what he was doing and what his ideas were. So there's always been a method to share, but it has never been as immediate as it is now. Where the, you know, you think it, you type it, and it is out there in the world. That, that has never been as, as crucial as it is now. But his thoughtfulness and the way [00:27:00] he he carefully worded and constructed his book and his thoughts within that book especially within this chapter as in the other chapters.

I really like that you're making that analogy and that connection with the church, even though Holtzclaw did not subscribe to any one denomination. He was very careful and not doing that. He was brought before the Black church folks, and they demanded that he tell them what he was, and he didn't. 

[00:27:34] DJ Hudson: Ooh, I would not have wanted to be in his shoes.

Mm mm. I don't know how he got away with that, that, that, that story. Yeah, you told me this when we spoke on the phone and it's one I can't wait to like, do even more research because that is a very, very fascinating and really powerful, like time for Black folks in the Black church and like, for so many different reasons I also, you know, [00:28:00] academically but also just personally have experienced the Black churches being much more than a religious institution.

[00:28:06] Jean Greene: Oh yes. Oh, yes. It was during his time. He mentions. several different denominations. But when they hemmed him up, and I'm saying hemmed him up because that's what they did, they got him in a meeting and they said, what are you? Who are you? What are you? And he would not say. And so one of the sisters of the church said, brothers, he ain't nothing.

And he didn't deny that because that suited his purpose. A lot of Black schools were founded by white mission groups and white churches. And this one place did not have any of those affiliations. So he could operate it with the sense, could operate with a sense of freedom where he might not have been able to if he was with a specific organization or denomination.

The last thing I [00:29:00] want to go over before we end today, I don't want to stop our dialogue at all, D. J., because I enjoy what we're talking about, and it's given me added insight into who Holtzclaw was as a person in 1915. And you mentioned that sometimes we allow our, and I'm guilty of this allow our 2024 sensibilities to color how we look at someone who was operating in 1915.

Thank you. So I appreciate that insight. I do want to add one last thing to our discussion. Can we talk about how education was what he was pushing and what DuBois was pushing in a way to help uplift folks? 

[00:29:44] DJ Hudson: Absolutely. Oh my goodness. Yes. And cause, and thank you also for, for pointing out and bringing me back to, you know, him getting hemmed up in the church, because I see that as, a, a political play that was just so [00:30:00] masterful and strategic and, and visionary, but it was for the sake of education.

Right. And, and, and that was what was really, Driven into me by what I learned and also what I experienced by being at Fisk is how, particularly with the founding of these schools, education was absolutely a political act. You know, there was a reason why, like there's all these, you know, like schools always have their mythologies and their, urban legends and, you know at least one of them and don't, don't, please don't go on this campus and let these Fisk students tell you this is true.

I am here telling you that Dr. Revis Mitchell himself told me to tell y'all that it is not true that the stone walls that encircle the Jubilee Hall of Fisk University were put in place to protect the school from the Klan. It is not true that the bells that are there in front of New Livingston Hall And elsewhere on the campus were meant to ring alarms or on the bell tower were not there warn people for the Klan.

Those are victory bells for footballs or [00:31:00] from when we had a football team. There wasn't somebody with a rifle posted up in the tower. However, the fact that these stories carry forward with us anyway, right, says a lot about our memories and what we know and what we do know, what we remember. And it also says that one thing that Black folks know from time immemorial, HBCU ever, or whether we've been the Dean of one forever is that when a Black person moves towards education in this nation, something shifts to oppose them and often with violence.

Right. Nowadays, what we see is the economic violence of debt. Howdy. Shout out to you other Black millennials who were taught by, you know, our parents generation. That going to college and especially going to an HBCU was one of the greatest and easiest and best things you could do to be successful and to bring honor and dignity and more liberation to your family.

And then what did Uncle Sam have for us? A whole lot of [00:32:00] zeros. With negative in front, right? And a whole lot of consequences if we can't meet those on top of a lot of other things, you know, and so like even today we still see that. And so what Holtzclaw was doing and doing this tightrope dance theologically, right?

Like, because like these Black church folks are wanting to know who do you serve and what do you believe and whose theology are you counting for? Because again, back then, Black churches were not, and Black church denominations, they were not solely about what you believe is an individual.

These were people who were working hard, organizing their communities in order to ensure that people who were recently free from enslavement, people who were still surviving the violence of sharecropping and those economic systems to ensure that people could eat, that people could survive, that they could have rooms over their head.

So this was serious business. 

And so for him to start this school, knowing that he wanted to keep central, this school being able to have its own institutional integrity and autonomy. 

[00:32:57] Jean Greene: Yes, 

[00:32:58] DJ Hudson: so much. And it's a [00:33:00] decision point and it's a strategy and a vision that There's a lot of Black leaders today who do not have this level of resolve and, and backbone, you know, to be able to say, I can look in and dream a hundred years into the future for Black folks.

I'm not just thinking about the Black middle class through the next election. I'm thinking about generation upon generation of young Black people who haven't even been born yet. Sure that they're shot at their own dignity and agency is theirs and DuBois again. I hear you. That's cute and sweet, but perhaps that won't come Through letting the white people give it to us.

Perhaps it comes through being very skillful. And so Holtzclaw is, is absolutely like, I mean, you inviting me to this conversation, this research absolutely is telling me I have a lot more to learn about him and to really dig in and to deepen in, even you reminding me that he was a printer, right? You know, like that is, I was looking up today, the definition of a polymath, you know, what does it mean to be a, what does it [00:34:00] mean to be a Black polymath?

Y'all, you know, George Washington Carver was listed on Wikipedia as a Black polymath. I sure hope I can, I can come close to that when I grow up, if I play my cards right. I might be a little bit more like you, Miss Jean, but you know, Holtzclaw absolutely is somebody who we should be looking to from now and, and definitely in the moment that we are in with all of the Economic, social challenges as a person who has been, you know, right on the front lines of the Black Lives Matter movement and taking all of those hits.

We need Holtzclaw. We need to learn from him. And I'm just grateful to you for telling us that and giving us the opportunity to come closer. 

[00:34:39] Jean Greene: I appreciate you coming on my podcast today. I am so excited about our conversation that we've had. I want you to hold on a second after I end the recording, though. Thank you so much.