Denise Taylor BMB Chp 3
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[00:00:00] Today our guest on our program is Mrs. Denise Taylor. Ms. Taylor has a long connection to the Utica campus. She will explain a little bit about her connection 

in just a bit. But we're going to be discussing 

Chapter 3 of Black Man's Burden. And I want to say welcome Denise Taylor. 

And today, as Ms. Green stated, I am going to be discussing Chapter 3.

I've been with Heinz for about 19 years now. And I started out working actually at the high school Agricultural High School. And I worked with the Title I program under Eugene Fisher. And, but all of my siblings attended Hinds Agricultural High School and some attended Utica Junior College as it was known, you know, back in the day.

Yes. So I'm no [00:01:00] stranger, you know, to the Utica area. I've lived here all my life and You know, this is where my family grew up and this is where I have raised my children and my grandchildren as well and this Book the black man's burden. It is a really interesting book and it's really kind of funny, the way he tells his story the things that he talked about and his relationship with Dr.

Booker T. Washington. You know, he started out in chapter three and he was talking about how in the beginning. He was just basically trying to get to know Mr. Washington and his ways and the things that he did, but in him talking about him, like I know there was one incident in Chapter 3 where he talked about Mr.

Washington came to him and said He needed to go and speak with the attorney. And when he went to speak to the attorney, he said, he told him, Go right [00:02:00] away and get the horse and the buggy and we need to go and talk to the attorney. Well, they went and it was a long journey. When they got there.

And Mr. Washington left him outside until about 10 o'clock at night. Right. And then he came back and told him, you go back and just leave the buggy here and I'll bring it back when I come back. Right. But as it turned out, he didn't bring it back and he ended up having to go back and get the Horse and buggy the next day, but I guess he must have walked back.

Yeah, and it was a long journey You know, but it was just a little funny things that he did and he talked about how It appeared that he never got angry With any of the students or let them see him being angry at them But he had his ways of telling them What was right and what was wrong? [00:03:00] I guess teachable moments but not out of anger or anything like that or to degrade the students 

Right.

He talked about how I guess they had very little During that time, and if they were not allowed to waste food at the school, like one young man had put just a bunch of molasses on his plate, more than what he could eat. But he made him eat those molasses. And so I just thought a lot of things that he talked about in this book was really, really kind of hilarious to me.

Then he talked about how his inspiration, Mr. Hoseclaw's inspiration, was to become a teacher. He wanted to be educated, but he kept having these obstacles to come up that he was not able to fulfill what he wanted to do until later on in life. The first thing that came, he [00:04:00] saved his money, and when he was about to go, he had saved up a hundred dollars from working with 

Dr. Washington, which he was actually his assistant. And the money that he had raised, he was saving it to get his education. But then he ended up getting sick. Right. That's right. And when he got sick, he was sick for a while and then he had to take that money that he had saved and pay for his hospital bill.

So that set him back. Well, he saved up again. 

Right. 

Then his dad sent him a message and said if you want to see me alive, you need to come right away. So he ended up going home to his parents and his father died. Well, he knew then that he had to stay with his mom to, you know, try to help her. So he was able to get jobs.

He even dibble dabbled in politics for a while and he, [00:05:00] you know, still didn't have any money, but he would teach on the side. He said he taught what he knew he didn't have any type of certificate or anything and teach it But he taught what he knew and he said he must have been doing a good job They didn't pay him money, but they paid him in things.

Right.

And so that's how he was able to help his family then later on his mom remarried because she knew That, you know, he wanted to be educated, so she remarried, and then that kind of freed him up to be able to go back to school, but he still didn't have any money. And also, he, in the politics area, he had got with some gentlemen, but anyway, they worked on... 

Was that when he was in Georgia, that he was in the politics?

Yes, it was. Carrollton County, I think it may have been. And he was saying that a lot of the, I guess, the [00:06:00] black people wanted degrees or the certificates in teaching. And back then it was like certificates in first grade, second grade, third grade, like that. But he was saying a lot of them, I guess, had not been educated.

So what they would do if you knew somebody, then you would just kind of, they just kind of put you in that room where they were taking the exam for the teaching certificate. 

Right. 

And actually they were cheating. And so he had to 

Oh, that's right, I had forgotten about that part. 

Yes. So he was saying that they would just bring them in there and, and sit them down.

And they would write two or three sentences and then you take the, the papers up and you, they were locked up overnight, but overnight somebody came in and replaced those papers that they had not written and took them out and put some good papers in and so the people were [00:07:00] able. to get their certificates.

So he thought, well, you know, this has to stop. And so he was able to get with somebody, I cannot remember the person's name, but anyway, eventually in that county they were able to stop that type of cheating from, you know, from happening. And so, he really didn't like politics. He really didn't. His main goal was to be an educator and so once he kind of got that settled He didn't have any money, but he knew his mom was okay because she had remarried So he said it was time for him to go back to school, but he went to I think it was a mayor, a governor Atkinson or somebody, it was somebody that he had worked with and they gave him the money.

He asked for a loan, but they actually gifted him the money so that he would be able to To go back to [00:08:00] Tuskegee to get his education so that he could get his certificate and teach. And so that's what he ended up doing. 

Good, good. That's right. I got really excited about a couple of parts in there. One was when he was helping support the person who was running for office. And he did such a good job of writing a letter for him, or whatever, that that helped the man. And so he had, he, he had an ability. He did. The other one was when he was relating a story about the, the student that, Put more food on this plate than he could eat. He reminded me of my parents who said, you know, if it's on that plate, 

you gotta eat it. 

You're gonna eat it. I don't care how long you sit there. You're going to eat it. 

Yes, and then there was one incident where he had to prove his trust. 

Right. 

And the Guy had told me he left money in his pocket intentionally, [00:09:00] and he told Mr.

Holtzclaw to, I think, do his laundry or press his pants or whatever he, the man knew he had left the money in there, so he took the money out of the pocket and buried it in the ground. So when the gentleman came back and asked where was the money, he came back and he told me, say, I buried it right here and gave it.

So that proved his integrity. By, you know, him doing this. So Dr. Washington thought very highly of Mr. Holtzclaw because of his integrity and I guess, you know, just how he was raised, his work ethics and his ability and the things that he could do. He wasn't just so educated from book smarts, but he had a common sense wise and then he picked up on a lot of things and ways from Dr. Washington. Huh. He picked up a lot of his [00:10:00] ways. He, to me, he kind of studied him. And that's how he was able to, I think, be successful in doing the things that he was able to do here on this campus. And to develop this school here. You know, and it goes back, for me, it says a lot that This person came from Tuskegee, which when they talked about Tuskegee, they, he described it as not really being much of anything, but they were able to teach them how to make a living and, and that's what he talked about that as well, about how in that community when he had to help his family, he knew about farming and just taking care A little of this and a little of that to make something from it.

And I said, you know, we have this institution, and [00:11:00] for me, instead of us, and I know we couldn't keep it all because times are changing, but we needed to incorporate some of this from the Black Man's Burden into our curriculum and teach our students because you never know who it could have helped.

You know, I'm glad you said that Miss Taylor cause you, when you were working with the Dean of Students here on campus. 

Right. 

I remember so well how y'all made it a point of seeing the human inside the student, right, and understanding where the students came from that not everyone came from the same background, right, so that we had to, I know Dean Rush used to call them Pookie and Ray Ray, right, we had to meet them where they were.

You got to meet them where they were, and another instructor that Used to always say that is Ms. Willie Mae [00:12:00] Wilshire, and yes, there were curriculums and there were benchmarks that the students need to make. But she used to always say, how can you teach them up here when they are down here? You gotta meet them where they are and then bring them up to standards for them to be able to achieve their goal.

Because if they don't have that knowledge, You can't put them way up on a pedestal and they're not there. So, a lot of that, you know, goes back to him as well, as far as I can see. And what really bothers me is that we did not, I feel like sometimes maybe we failed as not introducing some of his ways into The things that, you know, that he brought here and made this campus what it is today. 

I know exactly where you're [00:13:00] going with that, Ms. Taylor, and you are right. we have missed opportunities. 

Opportunities, right. 

Where we could have incorporated the tenets and instructions of Black Man's Burden into. All facets of curriculum. There have been instructors like Ms. Wilcher Mr. Jordan Mr. Collins, who pulled from that book and tried to get our students aware of where they come from, where the institution is, and how we have an expectation for 

them that they may not even have for themselves. So I know what you're saying when you say we have students come in to us on a level comparable to what they had in the Black Man's Burden.

When students would come with no funding to pay, they'd have a cow, a chicken, or some eggs. 

Right. 

And Holtzclaw didn't turn them away because all they had was a cow, a chicken, and some eggs. He let them come on, just as Booker T. Washington didn't turn Holtzclaw away. 

[00:14:00] Right. Because he didn't have anything.

He didn't have anything. He had only one suit. That was it. Yes. And wore it till it shredded. 

Right, right. 

He learned, well he brought to us in Utica, what he was taught at Tuskegee and at Snow Hill, that you build people up, you lift the veil, you show them 

the potential of what they can be. 

Right. 

And I saw that exemplified in you and Dean Rush, when y'all would work with the students and I would be going, what, what are we doing? And you turn around and we see some of these students today doing so much better than they thought they had the potential for. And I wish we could continue that. 

I wish we could too because I see the downfall where we have so much killing and, and, and all of the, you [00:15:00] know, just everything in the community and it's because a lot of them they're uneducated.

And then we look at the fact that, you know, children are having children and they don't, you know, they haven't had the background. that they should have had. And so if nobody's teaching them, then it's just trinkling down, the same type of mentality. So how can we expect them to do any better if they have not been taught?

And that's what he did. He reached out in the community and he, when he came here to Utica, He got people together and he trained them and taught them the things that he knew and they were able to farm and have better lives for themselves and their family. And that's what Dr. Washington was teaching him.

You know, how to be better than, you know, overcome the things that you [00:16:00] had. He also mentioned when he talked about being sick and he was saying one reason. Now he never disclosed what the sickness was. 

That's true. 

He just said that he was very sick for a while. But he alluded to the fact that, you know, you go from a building with cracks in the wall.

Oh, yes. When he said that the good building was killing off folks. 

Yes. Yes. That's right. That's right. And then, and then you come into this nice warm building and so your body. I guess had to adjust to the different climates. And so maybe he was saying that he had no underwear or something.

So You know, he like I said, the chapters were really funny, the stories that he was telling, and I would advise anybody, if you haven't read it, to read it, because it's really a good book. I didn't read the whole thing, but I, that's my plan, to go back and read it all. But you know, he talked about how he didn't have the underwear, and he [00:17:00] understand that that may have been where his sickness came from.

Because he was going from, places that had cracks to places that was Not insulated, you know, or well insulated and I guess maybe he was too warm or something, but you know, but like I say, I don't know if he had pneumonia or what he may have had because it didn't say. But you know, it just goes back to today.

I just feel like we could be doing more because there are things that we could read this book and we could pull some things from this book and we could implement them in an updated way, I feel like, that could help, possibly help some of these students. And I'm going to say this and if it doesn't need to be in there, you can edit it out.

But the first thing that I see that should have taken place a long time ago is that instructors should not have been [00:18:00] hired if they didn't know the story. Oh yeah. And the roots of where this campus came from. Because to me that is what has ruined The campus, because people don't care. They don't care about the Black Man's Burden and what he endured to get here and make this campus Utica Junior College, Hinds Agriculture High School, and now Hinds Community College.

It's interesting that you say that because one thing that we hope to do And we try to do through the Institute Museum is we try to inform new staff and new faculty about the story. We, , We introduce the book to them we tell them a brief version of Holtzclaw's journey to get here, and we take them on a tour of the physical area, not just the [00:19:00] campus, but the town as well.

And some of them acclimate, and some of them don't. I use myself as an example for that because when I first came to Utica. In 2000. Seems like yesterday. 

But I had no concept of who William Holtzclaw was. I didn't know anything about Utica Institute or the Black Man's Burden. But, there were people on campus. who knew the story and had absorbed enough of it into their lives that they were living examples of what it could be. And, I was receptive to the story. Now, to me, if you, you can tell Someone and try to show them if they're not receptive, right? Then that burden is lifted from you and put on to the person who is not receptive to receive it.

Yes. 

It would be [00:20:00] Great if we could include this story in our orientation It would be it really would and I think it would be if it not just orientation for Utica But orientation for the district because all students need to know the entire story of what goes on. 

Yes, and and it would be to me. It would be good if the entire district Knew the background because I feel like it's more that could be done This story, not only, it's kind of personal as well for me because I can name family members A. Caldwell, and, and you all may not know him, but he's family for me. He was one of Mr.

Holtzclaw's scholars. Oh, okay. He taught him. He was On the outskirts of Utica, but he brought him in. [00:21:00] He taught him about farming and he leased property from a white man. And it was over 50 acres. And later on down the road, he was able to purchase that land. Wow. And, you know Mr. Caldwell is deceased now, so is his wife, and they had one son, and he had a stepdaughter, but they are all deceased.

But there are some other family members, but, you know, they did end up in the end losing the land. I can think back to right here behind the college, my dad and his siblings, they purchased the little big spot that we have back there from Mr. Holtzclaw. He also taught my uncle and my dad about farming.

And they used to farm right back here, well across the street over here. They had cotton and peas. We're [00:22:00] talking across 18 over there? Yes. For years when I was a little girl, Uhhuh . And so he did a lot. And I'm sure that there are others, but those are two people that, that, that's personal for me. Right, right.

So the whole history of the college and, and I had not read the book, but I knew of him. Mm-Hmm. because it is in a sense family. For, for us that, you know, the lives that he touched and the things that he did, the knowledge that he brought, and some of those people were able to educate other people within the community.

Right. To farming and, you know, because back then farming was the thing. If you were a farmer and had land right. And you raised cotton peas, corn, potatoes, or whatever, that was a living for your family. Right? Your family didn't go hungry. Right. So, you know it's a personal thing for me. And I understand that it may not be for other [00:23:00] people and they wouldn't have a concern for it.

But, you know, it's history for me and my family. 

Well, there's something that, we're, as a group and as a community, we're getting back to that. We're getting back to Yes, you need to produce your own food so you don't go hungry when the store closes. You need to produce and provide a way to get money for your family that's not dependent on if the plant leaves.

So so many times that I heard it said, we didn't even know we were poor because we had food, we had this, we had that. And it's now that we have, we find ourselves in a food desert. We don't have a grocery store. We have to go miles and miles to get that need met 

that you see the worth in Holtzclaw's. Dream.

Right? And, and what he practiced that [00:24:00] you have to own your own land. You have to have your own home so you're not rented. Mm-Hmm. . And, you know, 'cause as, as folks say all over the country, rent has skyrocketed. 

It has. 

Folks, becoming homeless. They still have jobs, right? Because they can't pay rent.

Mm-Hmm. . And if we go back to the points that Holtzclaw taught in his 

Black Belt Improvement Society. If we go back to the structures and the instruction that he gave farmers. 

I'm not saying everybody must go back to the land, but enough of us need to do it so that we can provide not only for ourselves, but for others as well.

And that's what he did, you know, he didn't just think about himself, he thought about others as well, and he shared what he knew, and that's another thing, you know, we need to not You know, be so just caught up in self that we don't want to share information and teachings that we receive with [00:25:00] other people to help them to prosper and to be able to do well.

Right. So, yes. So this book it's not just something from 1915 that only talked about 1915. We can use these practices and tenets today. Okay. So, for our students, Ms. Taylor, you know, because I know you love the students. 

I do, I do. 

How can we, you know, we talked about making this part of the orientation, but how can we make this, do you think, live for our students?

Do we need to live it ourselves? What do we need to do? 

We, we need to live it ourselves, but, you know, I've heard people say teachable moments. So. Maybe in our association with the students, we can capture a minute where it's a teachable moment to share something with them that [00:26:00] may hit home for them and use that as a way to help them see that.

You know, you may not be doing so well, but if Mr. Hosecob did it in this book, then, and it's a true story, right, that maybe you can take something from it and use it to help yourself, right? You know, so you know, we have to find ways, I guess, to bring it to life for them. 

Another thing, Ms. Taylor, I want to just throw out there for you is when I was a student in a community college many, many years ago, if I hadn't had someone reach out, take me by the hand, and show me how to register for my class, what class I needed, what was the proper behavior when I was there, if someone hadn't shown me that I wouldn't have known.

You wouldn't have known. 

So how are we expecting these students to come in and operate without somebody [00:27:00] instructing them? How are we expecting them to take up that cross or that mantle if we're not showing them how to do it because somebody showed us. 

And we've got to get up and that's what we have to do.

We, we have got to take them. Sometimes you have to take them by the hand. You can make them independent, but you got to first. Teach them to be independent, right? So instead of us saying go on the computer and fill this out and do this Take them to the computer and show them If they're on the street and not going to school, it's because their parents may not have been educated, they may not know, so you approach them, if there is a better way, come on, let me show you sit down with them, and help them to complete an application, and then tell them, I'm not gonna leave you out here by yourself, I'm gonna help you along this journey, and be there [00:28:00] for them, you don't have to, In a way, you do have to spoon feed them, but let them know that you are there for them.

If they have a question, if they have a need, you know, we don't always have money, but I know that there have been times When I was in student services when students have needed and didn't have and I went around just like Mr. Holtzclaw did and I asked, do you have a dollar? know that we can do this for this student And and not all students are genuine, but it's just a chance that you have to take That's right, and we take chances with our own.

That's right. 

We teach them But when they out on their own We expect for them to do what we've taught them, but they don't always do that. So, we just have to have care and love in our heart and you know, because that's what he had clearly you know, that he was able to help so many people [00:29:00] and we just have to do it.

We just have to do what we need to do and we can't say well, we put it out there and then they didn't get it, blah, blah, blah. Right. Because sometimes you just got to go the extra mile of the way. That's true. To help them. Just like this lady. Yeah. And everybody's not savable, but some are. That's right.

Some are. And some of them are just looking for that special. Attention. Right. Or don't even know they need it until they get it. Until they get it, exactly. 

Well, Mrs. Taylor, this has been a wonderful discussion. 

Okay. One that we I have enjoyed it. 

The time flew by. I promise you it did. So, thank you again for agreeing to come talk to us about this.

And hopefully we'll finish this book together. 

Okay! 

Alright. Alright. Thank you.