MIC2 === [00:00:00] Jean Greene: Welcome to season two of our podcast, SIPS From the SIP and on our first program. I am so pleased to have join me, Dr. Deborah Mays Jackson. Dr. Jackson's roots run so deep into the Utica campus. Her mother is a past graduate of Hinds AHS and Utica Junior College, as is her extended family. She has come to us from that family and has been instrumental in what she took from Utica and then what she brought back to it when she became the first female vice president of the Utica campus. She was also the first Black female vice president for Hinds Community College. I'm so pleased to have her join me today. Thank you for coming. Thank you. [00:01:00] I want to talk to you about music and but I want you to just kinda bring us up to speed on how your history, how you got here. Debra Mays Jackson: Oh, first let me say thank you for inviting me. I was excited when you invited me and I'm glad to be here to talk about this very unique, wonderful place called Utica. I got here because my mom, like you said, there is a history of my family, my mom. Went to Hinds AHS And she graduated from there is Salutatorian and then she came right on across the street to Utica Junior College at the time and graduated from here. So when I was growing up, that's all I heard. She went on to Jackson State as well, but all I heard was Hinds AHS and Utica Junior College. I went to Terry High School here in Hinds county as well. All through my high school career, I didn't know what I was gonna do. And I do wanna preface that by saying that most of us who are in rural schools sometime, don't have opportunities as [00:02:00] other schools Jean Greene: That's true. Debra Mays Jackson: We don't have the resources and Terry high. Was one of those, we, I wasn't exposed to different colleges that I could go to. I wasn't exposed to different careers that were out there for me at the time. So by the time I graduated from high school it was already understood that I was gonna go to Utica Junior College. Because that's what I heard in my household. My mom's siblings came here and my mom went here. But I still wasn't exposed to any other school. Okay. And I end up majoring in accounting. When I got here, it really, like I said, it was no other alternative for me. But again, at Terry, they, my classmates some of them didn't go anywhere. Mainly because they were, they didn't have households where anyone went to college, so they didn't have the exposure. But that was my only exposure. So I was excited to come to school to get, to be able to come and go to college. I was afraid I'm my only child, so I was here alone. But it was a new experience. So when I got [00:03:00] here I did major in accounting, and that's because again. my home experience, my mom was an accountant and still is. She did people taxes and just dealt with numbers, Uhhuh. And I thought that was gonna be my plight as well. Okay, I can do it. My mom did it. I quickly realized math was not my thing. I did okay in the high school with algebra and again, the resources of being exposed. I didn't have calculus and trig and all that in high school, so when I got here, it was new to me. And it was a challenge. So one day here I think it was probably around December of my first year I was always hearing the choir, but I was never, I guess never went over. Okay. So that is where the change of the major came. I was invited by another student to go to the music department because they knew I played for churches. They knew I sang. And so they was like, you need to go over to the music department and meet [00:04:00] Dr. Cooper. And so that's how that started. I went from an invite and I got there and it was nothing but music coming outta that room. A small room full of students, Dr. Cooper in his office, music playing everywhere, and I was, my eyes opened up and I was amazed. I had been only here, what, five or six months, and I was like, oh, wow, this. This was over here the whole time. So it was a, it was that experience. And then I was introduced to Dr. Cooper and Dr. Cooper was told that I played and that I could read music, which was unique. And so I think he. Probably thought she probably can't. And so he said he opened up a hymn book on his piano in his office. And said can you play this? And I looked at it and it was the first hymn Jean Greene: Uhhuh. Debra Mays Jackson: Uhhuh. And I said, yes sir. And I sat down and it wasn't a hundred percent 'cause I hadn't read music for a while. But I played it. And he was like, oh yeah, Jean Greene: Uhhuh, Debra Mays Jackson: okay, I, you might need to come over here. You might [00:05:00] need to think about this. And that's the start. But I was I don't know how much of that you want me to tell. Jean Greene: tell. I want to hear that because we're talking about music in this season. So getting that information about how that music comes through this campus and how you were encouraged to become a part of that department and the opportunities you were availed of because you did, that's definitely something that we wanna Debra Mays Jackson: Absolutely. In December when I, a few days later, I made the decision without even having a discussion with my mother that I was changing my major from accounting to music. Just through the conversations with Dr. Cooper being in an environment that he had over in that room. It was just free to me. It was a nurturing feeling to me, so I changed my major. In January when we came back to school, I told my mom and what I think what the good transition for that is, that I still had to take the same general classes that I was [00:06:00] taking. I was not anticipating taking the trig and the calculus and all the other classes for accounting. But I hadn't even gotten there yet, but I knew I was getting depressed about it before I even could get to it. But, I was amazed and I was very happy that my mom was very supportive. good. She said, okay that you gonna do something. So do what you feel you are comfortable with, but you gonna finish. So that made me feel better about it. And that's when it started. Dr. Cooper just took me under his wing and and told me that I would be a piano major. Now, mind you, I had never done classical music. I played hymns out of the hymn book. I could read music and I played gospel for churches. So that was my history. Classical music is something that I had no familiarity with. Uhhuh. Jean Greene: Uhhuh, Debra Mays Jackson: But he opened that door for me and he started teaching me piano pieces for to be a piano major. So I was a piano major. Voice minor. But he opened so many other [00:07:00] doors. He was of course, and very intricate in opening my eyes to musicals and, those types 'cause we did opera South. Oh, Jean Greene: about that connection. Debra Mays Jackson: That first year with him, opera South was still very alive. And it was a a collaboration with Alcorn. The Utica campus here, Tougaloo and Jackson State created this. And I the one musical that I was in was Hansel and Gretel. And I still talk about that today. That experience was, I had never been exposed to anything like that. So that production itself was just phenomenal to me. And it was it was just. Being in a position to be exposed to that as a musician was just fun. I felt like I was on in Hollywood somewhere. Awesome. It was just wonderful. But Dr. Cooper ensured that those of us in the choir at the time, we had the experience of being the chorus for the [00:08:00] musical. And we. were there to see some of the most wonderful voices in the world there, and the teachers that came together from all of the campuses to put this on. And the production, it was just huge. And I just remember saying, oh my God, I really I wanna do this. I really wanna do this. So he exposed that to us. He gave me an opportunity to direct the choir. And he really was nurturing when it came to music theory. I had no idea. I knew theory, but I didn't know it in that term. Right. To teach the theory to me, and I literally, when I was. Struggling with mathematics. I was making all As in theory because it was something I loved and I enjoyed, and he made it so enjoyable. And he encouraged us so much. Those of us who were music majors, class was at 8:00 AM and we weren't ever late. Ever late. I, all four semesters that I had to take [00:09:00] theory one through four. He we'd learned to. Write music write our own pieces and present them and perform them. It was just so many things that I was not exposed to prior to coming to Utica campus. But he did, and he really expounded my love and my knowledge about something that, that I just did, not knowing how much I loved it, he gave me a, an attitude of this is who I am, with that, you always have to have someone not only encouraging you in it. but someone is going to drive you and push you in it. And I give that to him as well. We toured once a year. Jean Greene: This the choir or was this the groups? Debra Mays Jackson: This was the choir. At the choir. Now we did have the groups as well, and we were the first daughters of Bobby. Jean Greene: You're that first group Debra Mays Jackson: in the first group. We created The Daughters of Bobby. [00:10:00] I don't know how many more he had after we graduated. Yeah. But we were the first, and we did, we, I remember going to Raymond campus , to some performances there, talent shows turn it out, it was just wonderful. Having that vocal experience with him and him training you properly. Because mind, we were born in churches and we were performing in churches and you just bell it, you just sing and you try to get, the emotion from people from how you sing. But being able to be in a position to be taught properly, and that was my first experience of that. Even though I was in high school, I did not have a music class in high school. Jean Greene: So he's teaching you performance and how to Debra Mays Jackson: Posture. Wow. Dialect, breathing, embouchure, everything. He's teaching that to me as a college student, and I'm just. Bringing in, receiving everything. And I'm receiving it because I love it so much and I'm going, okay, this is what the stars do, this is what [00:11:00] real performers do. And I was not aware of that, but he exposed that to us lovingly. He exposed it to us. He was someone that you respected that you did not want to disappoint. Ever. And he was that father figure. He was gonna tell you the truth. He was gonna put you on the spot. He was gonna do the things he needed to do to strengthen you and strengthen your skillset and your mindset. Even the things that I did administratively and, in my career, I still fall back on some of the teachings that he and my mother gave me to be a good person, but be strong and be confident, and I learned confidence in that setting with Dr. Cooper because I was the only child. I was very quiet in high school. I was not trying to be seen. So when I got here, I blossomed pretty much I be, I became who I think God had planned for me to be musically. I learned [00:12:00] how to be more confident about my abilities and understand that your abilities are not the same as everybody else's. I wasn't meant to be, Whitney Houston Jean Greene: Right. Debra Mays Jackson: I may have been meant to be Whitney Houston background singer, but not Whitney. You learn well enough to do as well as you can, but I wasn't even doing that before being introduced to him. Jean Greene: Is it something about Dr. Cooper individually and Utica as a place that encourages that blossoming, do you think? I Debra Mays Jackson: I think so. I think this place first when I was a student here, this place was someplace where people cared about not only each other, but the students that we were not allowed to fail. Okay. So if you missed the class you were gonna be called out or your parents, somebody, it was back in the day where, you know, you could. Tell a parent about what was going on with their child. So Jean Greene: that is a while back Debra Mays Jackson: It was a while [00:13:00] back. It was a while back. 'cause I know of several of my instructors who knew my mother as a student here was still here when I got, when I became a student and I knew they knew my mother. So there are things that, when they would see her here for a program or something, they would say small things. 'cause I was too scared to do anything bad. But, I knew that if I had done something that they would tell and with Dr. Cooper, he was such an intricate part of my day here. Mm-hmm. Every day that, he and my mom had a good relationship where she needed to know something. She knew she could pick up the phone and call Dr. Cooper, or if she knew that I needed to be, directed or told anything he had. The authority to do that and would do it. So you as a student, if you had any innate ability, it was nurtured here from the whole campus. 'cause I'm, I, Dr. Cooper is definitely someone that I know that I can always say. Helped me [00:14:00] to blossom to be what I need to be. But there were several other people on this campus that, outside of music. I remember going on tours and Miss Marilyn Bion Davis was a, a chaperone. And she would tell us all the time how we need to look, how, especially Jean Greene: Uhhuh, Debra Mays Jackson: how we need to look, how we need to dress. Don't talk this way, don't do this. I remember that. So she became a very close friend throughout my life as well. Then I had, you had Mr. Bell, you had Coach Owens, you had Ms. Turner in the registrar's office. You had people here when I was a student. That was, ended up still being, some of 'em still here when I came back to be vice Jean Greene: Yeah. Debra Mays Jackson: and I still go back, went back to my childhood with that fear, because you have the, that. That respect for these Jean Greene: people. Yes. Debra Mays Jackson: Yes. So I knew that there were certain things that I, as a student could not get away with, wouldn't even try to get away with, but there was a nurturing climate here on this campus. Jean Greene: I'm glad you mentioned that because there, there was a [00:15:00] nurturing climate for the students. There was a mentoring climate Yes. For the staff and instructors. And when these folks, because the time I got here, some of these folks were still here and they really would pick you up where you were and work with you. And encourage you to be proud not only of yourself, and you were describing the poise that Ms. Binion and others would try to instill in us, right? This is how you carry yourself, right? Because you at Utica. That's Debra Mays Jackson: right. Exactly. That was the term. Jean Greene: This Debra Mays Jackson: is how we do it. Hit Utica. Jean Greene: Uhhuh. Debra Mays Jackson: And when you, but when, not only when you left the Utica campus, they wanted you to represent them, represent the campus, but they wanted, when you say I went to Utica, people to say, oh, I know you are quality. I know what you're about. 'cause I know that they have standards on that campus. I recall that. On tour [00:16:00] once that someone, I don't remember what church, but it was a, I think it was in Chicago, that when they said someone got up and spoken, they said when the choir comes from Utica, you get ready because there's a poise and a. Standard and a almost a bougieness that comes along with it. And that was, that made us feel great, 'cause remember now we had kids from everywhere on this campus, not just from Mississippi or from the Utica area, Terry or Bolton, or Edwards. We had students here from Chicago, from California, from New York, who came and migrated here because of family ties. And then when they get here, they're taught that, level of high standards. Exactly. And if they could not hang, they Because they were not lowering the standards because the student came here from somewhere else. The standards maintained. Jean Greene: That is so true. That is so true. And the way and because we're talking music, so I'm gonna consistently talk about Dr. [00:17:00] Cooper. But the way I've talked to some former jubilees and they tell, Dr. Cooper said, you gonna have to do, you gonna be here on time or we leaving? And if you were not on time, Debra Mays Jackson: the bus would leave without you. Jean Greene: The bus would leave without you, you had to get to the next venue. The best way you knew how. Debra Mays Jackson: That's right. That, and that's and that taught us though, and those are life lessons. Because those are things that, we try to instill in students now. Yeah. That, time is important and you shouldn't waste other people's time. Yes, Dr. Cooper was a timely person, and I, I think I've always been that, but I respect that because that's who I am. Right. If I am scheduled to be somewhere at 12 o'clock, I'm gonna be there about a quarter to Jean Greene: Right. Debra Mays Jackson: 'Cause if you're there at 12, you're late. Jean Greene: Yeah. Debra Mays Jackson: That's what he would say. You get there before to get yourself together. And that's a performance thing. Yeah. That's a music performance thing that he taught us as well. You don't get to a venue to perform. At the exact time you need to get there before, get a feel for the environment, get the feel for the building, see what you have for [00:18:00] resources. Are the mics working? Or doodle musician are the musicians there? All those types of things he taught us musically that you need to have. Now, I was a pianist, so I already understood getting a feel for the instrument that you're going. 'cause every piano is different. Yeah. Yeah. So some are tuned, some are not. Some are high pitched, some are low pitched. So Jean Greene: how they sound in the venue Debra Mays Jackson: the echo. That's right. So it, all of that has to be taken under consideration when you're performing so vocally. It's the same thing, but those are the things that he taught us as well through the day to day. Matriculation of his teaching, some of the things we didn't realize we were being But when you leave and you still encounter those things and expect those things. Okay, yeah. I was taught that. Yeah. I was taught that. So Jean Greene: that's very good. I also thank you for sharing that. But when you leave Utica You're not abandoned by Utica. Debra Mays Jackson: Absolutely not. Jean Greene: It's 'cause [00:19:00] there you are at Jackson State, but who comes to, to back you up? Debra Mays Jackson: Oh gosh, Dr. Cooper, look, I can recall my getting ready to graduate from here. And Dr. Cooper is very well known in taking us to auditions to colleges. He would go out of state and take his students to an audition. Now, I'm gonna tell you most professors at colleges and universities, they'll schedule them, but they don't show up for them. You know, they all help you get the audition with the upcoming college or university, but they don't go. I watched Dr. Cooper before it was time for me to grad, I watched him take students to Alcorn for auditions, for scholarships, Jackson State even places out of state.. And the students would come back and talk about their experience. So that was helping us get prepared. And so we all had to do that. But I remember when I was getting ready for my, audition at Jackson I had learned his piano [00:20:00] piece. And so we were working, and I, he knew how nervous I was. 'cause again, for me, Jackson State was huge. Jean Greene: right? It is. Debra Mays Jackson: This is. Major and I may not get the scholarship, so Dr. Cooper not only arranged the scholar, the audition, Dr. Cooper was at my audition. I met him at Jackson State Music Department and I'll never forget I was shaking and we were outside in the hallway and I, he was already there when I got there and when I walked through the door, I was shaking and he grabbed my arms and he said, calm down. And I just looked at him. He said, you're going to be fine. You're going to be fine. It's okay. You're gonna be fine. So we sat on this bench right in the foyer of the music department. For about five or 10 minutes. He had already had been to the upstairs with the music, the piano teachers. Had talked to them, met me dos, he had done [00:21:00] all of this leg work before I even got there to make me feel comfortable. He walked me up and Dr. Jackson and Dr. Inger were the two piano teachers And he sat in the corner. While I played my peace to give me peace, Jean Greene: Uhhuh, Debra Mays Jackson: I played the peace nervous. And he knew it. And it, when I finished, he said it to, to them, he said, she's nervous. He says, but she's a great student and she's will learn what you give her. I'll never forget that, those encouraging words, and I, and they offered me a scholarship that day. And I can't even tell you how a student that didn't have what I had with Dr. Cooper to be there, if they were going to do an audition and they were in my position, how would they have gotten through it? Because his presence made me feel better. I was still nervous, of course, but I felt better because I [00:22:00] had some familiar faces, a familiar face there. But he's there every recital. I had at Jackson State Piano Recital. Dr. Cooper was there every performance, I think except for a maybe one or two in the choir. And I'm just a choir member. Jean Greene: You're not a soloist. Debra Mays Jackson: wasn't the soloist. He was there. So it was never a break in the support, the love the, the commitment to me the drive and enc, encouraging me to keep going. You're gonna be fine. You go. My, my first piano recital at Jackson State, one piece, I lost my memory. I was just sitting there hitting one note, just hitting one note. 'cause it, it just left me Jean Greene: Uhhuh Debra Mays Jackson: Auditorium full of people. My co my former, my student, my students was there, my teachers was there. All the teachers from the news department was there. Dr. Cooper, he brought students 'cause that's what, he used bring students from [00:23:00] here. My parents, my, my family field with people, and I'm just hitting that one note 'cause I went blank. Jean Greene: Oh. Debra Mays Jackson: I went blank. And. It came back eventually and I finished it. And then that was a break after. And I walked out the side door of that auditorium. And I remember Dr. Ingal, who was my, she was my teacher there, my piano teacher there. And she met me at the door and she hugged me and she said, it happens to everyone. Let it go. You got another segment to go. I had three more pieces to play. Wow. And she said, let it go. It happens to all of us. It's okay. You did fine. It wasn't 30 seconds. Dr. Cooper was coming down them stairs on that side behind, behind the And he, look, I'm crying by now, right? I'm crying. And he came out, he said, told me the same thing. She said, it happens to everyone. You are doing [00:24:00] fine. You gonna be okay. I was just embarrassed, just totally embarrassed, but. Not only was he there, he was there for me, in my most down trotted moment. He was there. And I will never forget that. But he came behind that stage and he made me feel better. He had Dr. Loing GU team and and I was like I said, I was bawling by then because I was like, I can't believe I just messed up like that. They both made me understand that. They had all, both had gone through this before. Every, every performer has a moment. And my very first recital And I think I played eight pieces that day. So one of Jean Greene: blanked on the one I Debra Mays Jackson: blanked on the one, I blanked on the one and one segment of it, and I picked up where I figured I knew it. And went on and finished it. But I was just embarrassed. But I can remember, Dr. That those are the type of moments, Dr. Cooper has been, he's been in my, he's still in my life right now. I still talk to Dr. Cooper. I still [00:25:00] check on him. And because he's one of those kinds of people that you just cannot let go. He's just that burst of ins of inspiration and he exudes love and support. Jean Greene: Thank you for sharing that because Dr. Cooper is an example of what makes this place special. He is unique and he does support his students and as unique as you are, as his piano playing protege. I've heard this story. Similar stories from others. Yes. So his influence and his touch transcends and it's always personal. Personal. It is not a generic, I'm gonna do this, this is my music student. No, this is Deborah. Debra Mays Jackson: He gives us what we individually need. Yeah. Yeah. It. Every one of us, and we, and I saw it as a student, for students that went [00:26:00] on, and it makes you wanna come. When he was here, it made you wanna come back and talk to the other students, right? Because he had students before me that would come and perform and talk for, to us. To encourage us. And now we saw what he, what they were telling us in him. And so when we went off and we wanted to come back and do the same thing for the students behind us, Jean Greene: creates this cycle. Debra Mays Jackson: It creates the cycle and it and it was a cycle of building of not only the family, but I don't know what you call it. A community. Yes. It's a community of musicians that he creates here. Because a lot of the students. Probably came from similar backgrounds of me of not being properly trained or formally trained, I should say, in proper etiquette for music. So that was the beginning for me. And he was just wonderful in that just being not only a good teacher, but he is a good person. He's a good person that cares about his students. And that is, people are [00:27:00] getting away from that, Jean Greene: That's so true. Initially when I was thinking about you coming and sharing not only the story of your experience at Utica, but the story of your experience with music here and at Jackson State and in your life as it, it has continued to be important. I was thinking of how music, it's so ingrained in the history of this place from initially Holtzclaw creating the Jubilee Singers and how that music has permeated this institution and this community. So I wanted to touch base with you about what. And I guess this goes back to when you say you were playing music in church. That's important in this, in, in our black community. But it's also important in the Utica community. So I [00:28:00] just want you to talk about what gospel music what you feel gospel music is in Mississippi in this area. Debra Mays Jackson: Yes, raised in the church. And that's, and that's all I played with when I from four years old on was gospel. And I think for me, gospel is an extension of our Christian conversation. Jean Greene: Okay. I Debra Mays Jackson: I think it's a way that we as black folk or, , our culture has used this to tell good news, to talk about, to talk about God and our experiences with God and just have this this language. I consider it gospel music being a language that we utilize to. Exude happiness and art to tell a story about what we've gone through. 'Cause if you notice, most gospel music is a story. Yeah. All of us sometimes have similar stories, and when we hear certain songs and that's [00:29:00] telling a story, you notice how we all connect to that because it's so familiar to us. Yeah. So I think gospel music is that's that connectivity of us as black folk. Jean Greene: Yeah. We're not alone in this experience. Debra Mays Jackson: Exactly. We are all connected into this, and this is our language to have our conversation about it. As we go from church to church doing different things, even if it's a spiritual, because I feel like gospel music kinda came from the slavery spirituals, it just kinda expound into something different. It's still telling the story. It's our language, the the slavery time. People use music. To not only tell stories or to get through the fields as they were working, but it also music that those spirituals had messages in them. Yes. So we all have always used music and gospel or spirituals or something from the beginning of time Uhhuh to connect and communicate. Jean Greene: That's right. When and I [00:30:00] always go back to Holtzclaw. When Holtzclaw started, he found that when he was going to do fundraising in the north and the east, that the whites up there loved to hear what they call plantation songs. The spirituals. right? So he was able to, share that music, which told the language of our people, but also gave these folks a reason. A softened reason to support his work. That's right. To support his work. Yes, it's our language and it continues to speak to us today. But it has also been used to who encourage support from those outside of our communities. Absolutely. Debra Mays Jackson: Absolutely. Jean Greene: Absolutely. It has helped us in. I was listening to something about the transition of a particular song through the Civil [00:31:00] Rights movement and how it set, it gave messages out during that time as well. So we've talked a little bit about the purpose of the music. Has the purpose of gospel music changed? Debra Mays Jackson: I don't think so. I think the purpose is the same. I think the times have changed. As you, as we talked about, the spirituals and then it comes to gospel, and then you have contemporary gospel and you have, I think with the. Age and the times of changing that, the type of gospel music changes. I think the, but I think the core of what Gospel does is the same. I think it still tells a message. I still think it is a connectivity of. Our people Uhhuh. Again, now it's widespread and everyone sings gospel. Everyone sings spirituals too though, right? Jean Greene: right? Debra Mays Jackson: But we also know what, where it generated from, where it originated from. So [00:32:00] again, I think the gospel music is changing because of the times we were in. We have technology now you have all these different things that people, mindsets are different, but the message is if you listen to some of the music. Some of the same That is very important to black folk. And it just depends on what your preference is, how you wanna hear that message. Jean Greene: That is that's interesting because that one thing I wanted to touch on was how gospel music has transitioned through genres. And, the way I like to listen to my gospel music is acapella. I, it is something about hearing that unaccompanied human voice that really can, touch a spirit this spirit. But then there are times when I want to hear some accompaniment. Am I listening to [00:33:00] it for a spiritual purpose? Or ha, am I listening to it for an entertainment purpose? Is it different? Or am I able to get entertainment and spiritual food at the same time? Debra Mays Jackson: I think you can. Okay. I think you can. I think you know, first and foremost, all music is entertainment. Jean Greene: Mm. Debra Mays Jackson: But we as people found a way to entertain people through a message, ah, with a message. So I think what you're saying is very real. Again, that's why they're different genres of how that message is given, because everyone has a per a preference, right? Okay. So you might hear, Jesus, keep me near the cross. Straight out of the hymn, Uhhuh and just be pleased with it. But someone else might need to hear the Mississippi Mass version of Jesus Hear me? But it's the same message. It's the same words. The sa. So it depends on how you wanna receive it, how you wanna hear it. I can [00:34:00] relate to what you just said because I like acoustic piano. I'm not a big keyboard girl. I like the acoustic 'cause I trained on that uhhuh. That's what I played. That's what I began. I can, he, I like it in music with other instruments, uhhuh, but I love to hear the acoustic piano. And I think I like my preference is acoustic mu instruments, period. Jean Greene: Uhhuh not the electrical, enhancement. Debra Mays Jackson: I that, I like it Uhhuh in some instances and depending on what it is, what's being played, I do like it Uhhuh, but I prefer, I acoustic, so I think as I hear Jesus, keep me to the cross and I hear it acapella. I can respect that. I love that. And I can hear the natural voice and I can hear the natural skillset Jean Greene: uhhuh, Debra Mays Jackson: but there's a time that I wanna hear the Mississippi Mass version. I wanna free hear Frank Williams. Right. And it gives me the same [00:35:00] feeling. So it, you can get it from both. And I think it depends on who we are and what our preference is. But the message for me is the same. Okay. Jean Greene: Excellent. I've got one final question and to wrap up our discussion, which I have thoroughly enjoyed, I want you to do, Debra Mays Jackson: well. Jean Greene: Thinking about gospel music, how it brings pulls from our past. How do you see it informing our future? Debra Mays Jackson: Oh, that's a good question. I'm a firm believer of knowing your past. So you can have a more in depth future. That you can have a more informed future, I should say, in reference to that. I don't know because as you see it, it changes so much. Now I don't know what it would end up being or what level of performance will come out, but I honestly believe in my hearts of [00:36:00] heart that we will always have the core I think we will always have the originated. Spirituals, we will always have the gospel music that we'll always have hymns. I think we'll always have the core of it. But someone's gonna always 'cause creativity is what you know, is just gonna be there. We all have creativity of some level and someone's always gonna take those and make something different out of it. Jean Greene: gotcha. Debra Mays Jackson: Gotcha. And so when you do that, it is going to, it is going to, influence the future. It's going to influence where we are, what the times are in them times. So when we have spaceships everywhere. So of course we know it's gonna change. Music will change with that because you're gonna have a whole different mindset, a whole different environment. But I honestly believe somebody's gonna go back and pull those spirituals out of the fields. Yes. And that's gonna be still heard [00:37:00] and hopefully it will still influence. How we move, how we live, how we treat people in the future. Jean Greene: Yes. Thank you so much. Dr. Deborah May Jackson, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate the time and the expertise that you've given to this. And I want to extend an open invitation for you to come back sometime to our podcast, whether we talking about music or if we talking about education. Debra Mays Jackson: I would love that. I love sitting talking with you. I do, yes. And you're doing a great job with this museum and all of the history here on this campus. I want to extend my appreciation to you for continuing the talks and continuing the legacy on this campus to make sure it's not forgotten. Thank you. I truly appreciate you for that. So I'm always open to you. Usually if you just need, you need me to come back, I'll be right Jean Greene: All right. Thank you so much. Thank Debra Mays Jackson: Thank you.